Eagle wrote:Religion and spirituality are 2 different things, some religions are incompatible with man's inborn spirituality and corrupt it. Other religions provide the right tools to nurture and develop it.
Eagle wrote:87:2"Who creates, then makes complete"
Eagle wrote:20:55,22:5,7:11"And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam".
This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race began with a combination of basic elements, evolved into living entities capable to reproduce until one being (Adam) was fully, physically completed and ready to receive God's spirit to become the first vicegerent
Eagle wrote:40:67-8,35:11,32:7-9"and He began the creation of man from dust. Then He made his progeny of an extract of water held in light estimation. Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit. And made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts; little is it that you give thanks".
This verse literally says the progeny of an entity that originated from clay spread through some "lowly fluid" i.e. the sperm before it was made complete then filled with God's spirit. A period therefore existed when an "incomplete" species reproduced through the sperm-drop before it developped physically into a fully, complete human being i.e. Adam who then received the spirit from God, as in
"and We sent Isa son of Mary afterwards, and We gave him the Injeel, and We put in the hearts of those who followed him kindness and mercy"
As a side note, this concept entirely agrees with the one described in the Hebrew Bible according to which mankind has a proclivity to sin but can overcome it, as exemplified through the story of Cain and Abel in Genesis.76:3,90:8-10,91:7-10"And (by) a soul and He Who proportioned it. And inspired it with its wickedness and its virtue. One has succeeded whoever purified it. And one has failed whoever corrupted it".
76:2-3"We made him a being indowed with hearing and sight, verily We have shown him the way (and it rests with him to prove himself) either grateful or ungrateful".
The root is Ain-B-D and it means slave or servant. Being a 'abd/slave of God is what each pious Muslim strives for and previous prophets all throughout the Hebrew Bible were refered to as God servants, including Moses or David. God Himself calls them51:56"And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me/yaabuduni".
Jer29:19,2Kings17:13"My servants, the prophets".
The whole purpose of man is therefore to remain in fear of God, His judgement, and keep His entire commands which obviously is synonimous with worshiping Him with awe.Ecclesiastes12:13-14"Fear God and keep His commandments for this is the whole purpose of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil".
In 22:77 the ritual acts of ‘bowing’ and ‘prostration’ are mentioned beside the word a‘budu/worship, further indicating that the word encompasses a larger scope than the ritual aspect. Ibada is basically a way of life, the acceptance that in our relationship with God, we are the lowest and He is the Highest, and one way in which it is commanded to be manifested, outside the servitude to God through ritual worship, is the servitude to the humans through acts of empathy and compassion. The Quran delves in great lengths upon that concept, placing it in some cases, ie benevolence towards fellow humans, as of equal importance as ritual worship. So important it is in fact that when defining Himself as the rahman/the most merciful, Allah places that characteristic as being the chief evidence by which His humble servants are recognizable in this world 25:60-77. That concept embeded in the word, that ibada isnt merely ritual worship, but rather something that covers it as well as other intricacies, is reflected in God's instructions to Moses as he was about to be imparted divine wisdom, prophecy, miracles6:162"Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds".
20:14"Surely I am Allah, there is no god but I, therefore aAAbudni/enslave yourself to me, and keep up prayer for My remembrance.."
So the rendition of "worship" doesnt capture the entire dimension of the word. Making oneself a slave is a timeless and unlimited condition, while worship is restricted in time. Finally, in order to further understand the intensity of the relation between Allah and a willful servant of His, the verb aliha coming from ilah is the term used to describe the most intense level of love for an entity.36:60"Did I not charge you, O children of Adam ! that you should not serve ('ibadah) the Shaitan? Surely he is your open enemy. And that you should serve ('ibadah) Me; this is the right way".
20:76"the reward of him who has purified himself".
The dwellers of hell, those who would have lost all good share in the life to come are described as expressing two essential regrets for having failed making the right spiritual choices, either they refused listening to the clear guidance being explained to them or did not use their reason to reflect on the higher reality"..so that they might use their reason, they might think...".
67:10-11"And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire. So they shall acknowledge their sins".
These commands establishing a code of life are made in a way so as to not overburden our spirituality and thus intensifying our inherent weaknesses as humans, but rather help us in developping our spirituality smoothly towards purity and inner-peace87:14-5"He indeed shall be successful who purifies himself, and remembers the name of his Lord and prays".
And such commands, if undertaken with the correct spiritual and mental mindframe, facilitate one's spiritual progression towards the ultimate good of the hereafter 92:4-7. As reflected in the4:28,13:28"surely by Allah's remembrance are the hearts set at rest".
Only that guidance and its regular, consistant implementation in life will help us channel our natural inner restlessness and hastiness that would otherwise incline us to failure wenever a moral crisis arises 17:11,21:37,70:19-35. These often described states of inner spiritual weakness are only a natural outcome of an original, untrained spiritual state just as a newborn is physically weak. Only the appropriate training, spiritual or physical can make one overcome the obstacles, abstract or concrete, that come our way. Impatience in itself is not something condemnable, it is even praised when occuring in the context of eagerness to do good 2:133,5:48,etc. God has therefore given man the ability to tilt the balance of spirituality in opposite ways.Psalms119:9"In what manner should a youth purify his way? To observe according to Your word".
The upringing environement is crucial in determining one's spiritual choices and if it is corrupted beyond limits it makes it much harder to positively express our ingrained spiritual cognition. God points how the Queen of Sheba's disbelief was due to her upringing in a corrupted environement, which was not exposed to her and reversed until she was shown spiritual uprightness through the prophet Solomon's example 27:43. It is to avoid this that Nuh prayed God not to leave any of his people alive, once they reached the climax in disbelief and their punishment for which they were warned was decreed, so as to avoid them corrupting and conditionning further generations who would not be able to hearken their ingrained God-consciousness by themselves, unless expressedly shown the way 71:26-7.32:7-9,64:2"He it is Who created you, but one of you is an unbeliever and another of you is a believer; and Allah sees what you do".
but Allah will once again confirm that His guidance is contingent on free, willful acceptance 2:256,18:29 ie He does not compel anyone to believe or disbelieve39:57"Had Allah guided me, I would certainly have been of those who guard (against evil)"
39:59"My communications came to you, but you rejected them, and you were proud and you were one of the unbelievers".
or it will deviate, lose its balance 29:38. This is why special importance has been given to the regular, obligatory daily prayers. 70:22-34 describes the merits and character of those who have been declared as worthy of Paradise, starting with the Prayer and concluding with it.2:153,29:45"Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and keep up prayer; surely prayer keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest"
Here it is to be noted how one of the recognizable patterns of the prophets is that they do not merely recite the revelations but apply themselves mostly in purifying and reforming the lives of the people, cleansing their morals and dealings of every evil element, and adorning them with the finest moral qualities. In the HB its states in2:151,3:164,62:2"a Messenger from among themselves, to convey unto them His messages, and to cause them to grow in purity, and to impart unto them the divine writ as well as wisdom".
Rabbinical writings suggest that the second part of the verse is in reference to Moses, providing healing and purification through the revelation imparted to him.Prov13:17"A wicked messenger falls into evil, but a faithful emissary brings healing".
man is naturally guided to the ways of ascent put at his disposal 70:3 raising himself above the mere material form of his existence that in itself does not earn him achievement in the hereafter, ie man's qualifications for Paradise are created not on the basis of the substance of his creation but only on the basis of his merit and excellence40:13"He it is Who shows you His signs and sends down for you sustenance from heaven, and none minds but he who turns (to Him) again and again"
70:38-9"Does every man of them desire that he should be made to enter the garden of bliss? By no means! Surely We have created them of what they know" 53:32"He knows you best when He brings you forth from the earth and when you are embryos in the wombs of your mothers; therefore do not attribute purity to your souls; He knows him best who guards (against evil)".
skynightblaze wrote:3. In another verse, quran says he created man out of nothing. Nothing implies there was no prior state/process before creation of human being i.e He came out of thin air. Also no where does the quran say that initially there was nothing and then...... So dont try that line of argument..
Eagle wrote:Obviously the absence of organic life entails it originated from inorganic compounds, which were themselves created like every thing else in the universe that originated in nothingness 19:67. This is a particularity of the supreme Creator, initiating all things out of nothingness, He is 2:117"badeeu/Innovator and initiator of the heavens and the earth" meaning that in His case, contrary to all creative endeavours, He creates without any blueprint, preexisting inspiration, experience, simply through His word "and if HE decreed an order done, He only says be and it is". This is why God is the "best of creators".
skynightblaze wrote:This denies evolution and also contradicts other statements as well.The way its written is completely at odds with basic reasoning skills and scientific community as well unlike what you have been claiming. Merely repeating that its not at odds wont change the fact that it is at odds. Unless quran mentioned that these different ingredients were mixed together , basic reasoning skills would tell us that this is an internal contradiction.
Eagle wrote:All languages inherently accept exceptions unless the statement is clearly absolute, or that no other statements from the same source exist to allow the exlusion. The Quran speaks in several places of different non organic compounds at mankind's origins and in none of these verses does it make at absolute assertion.
skynightblaze wrote:Btw you talk about quran stimulating spirituality by these verses .I wonder what spirituality you find here with these verses.
Eagle wrote:...its spiritual aim, as is clear from the context, includes the humbling of mankind by pointing to the earthly elements and water at its origins, as well as providing an argument for the simplicity of the concept of resurrection.
skynightblaze wrote:Merely hijacking natural phenomenon which were already known and claiming that Allah is behind it does not cut the cake.
Eagle wrote:That is the first objection that wasnt expressed by others previously. The point of these verses isnt that "Allah is behind it". The point is what was quoted above.
skynightblaze wrote:How can anyone think of spirituality without any proven evidence?
Eagle wrote:Spiritual deduction, like scientific deduction isnt always dependent on factual, physical evidence. Only animals need to see a thing physically in front of their eyes to accept its presence. But then, even some animals are capable of mental deductions based on perception, without actually seeing...
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238&start=40#p239057
manfred wrote:In your country that is the liver though....
manfred wrote:And the point I was raising is that at the time people really did think mental activity originates in the heart, and the Qur'an merely used that idea without questioning.
manfred wrote:Why "understanding heart"? Why not mind/head/brain?
manfred wrote:Show me the bit where is says "from Cyrus's point of view" please.
manfred wrote:Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?
Garudaman wrote:manfred wrote:In your country that is the liver though....
lol, liver or heart, depend on the context, sakit hati -> hati = heart, kanker hati -> hati = liver.manfred wrote:And the point I was raising is that at the time people really did think mental activity originates in the heart, and the Qur'an merely used that idea without questioning.
nope as long there's QS. 96:13-16 : viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18238#p238984manfred wrote:Why "understanding heart"? Why not mind/head/brain?
because the sensation of intention is felt in chest/heart!manfred wrote:Show me the bit where is says "from Cyrus's point of view" please.
QS. 18:86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."manfred wrote:Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?
no its not, unless present people also speak as the sun really set or rise, every time they say sunset or sunrise.
Isn't what the Quran says supposed to be eternal, or is that only when it interferes with your kind of logic??Also why would the Qur'an then speak of this place like a real place, with people living there?
no its not, unless present people also speak as the sun really set or rise, every time they say sunset or sunrise.
QS. 18:86. Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it [as if] setting in a spring of dark mud, and he found near it a people. Allah said, "O Dhul-Qarnayn, either you punish [them] or else adopt among them [a way of] goodness."
manfred wrote:Hi garudaman,
yes I know when you say "sakit hati" you mean something very like "heart broken"...But "hati" is clearly not the heart but the liver.
manfred wrote:So "liver sick" is something you get, perhaps when you learn you girlfriend wants to marry someone else....
manfred wrote:The point it while obviously people in Indonesia know that this is not really a process for the liver, they use it still because that is what their ancestors believed long ago. You also still shout "liver, liver!" to alert someone to danger... it's even on road signs: "hati hati"
manfred wrote:Two things: a) there is not a shred of connection this verse draws to Cyrus the Great.
manfred wrote:b) it does not have he "as if" in the actual text. It says, "He found it (i.e. the sun) setting in a pool of dark water.."
no. its also called "patah hati" just as in english, lol.
manfred wrote:no. its also called "patah hati" just as in english, lol.
Not really like English... "broken liver" makes no sense in English, so we translate it into the equivalent, "broken heart"...
manfred wrote:And the "hati berdebar-debar" is an interesting mixture of metaphors... literally "liver pounding-pounding..." It is a Dutch influence... the "liver" is gradually transforming to "heart"...
manfred wrote:We find a similar process in the West: to the Qur'an the heart was literally the seat of thought and reasoning, as well as emotion. When later it was discovered it was the brain, really, the "heart" concept was not thrown out all together, it became a sort of metaphor...
manfred wrote:As to Cyrus the Great, that is just a theory, and there are some problems with that too. For example, what iron gates his he buold, and where are they?
manfred wrote:And the "setting place of the sun", the muddy pool, is a REAL place in the Qur'an, with people living there. Mohammed also said this, in a hadith.
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