Explain this contradiction

[marduk]

Though I mentioned this contradiction in another forum topic it's so severe that I think I should also mention it in Islam Questioned. It is rather obvious that the number 1 is considerably different from the number 10. Which of the following two ayats are the true one and which is the false one, because they can't both be true. Abrogation is not a valid excuse in this case because Allah didn't provide an explanation for why the number would need to be changed.

2:23 (Asad) And if you doubt any part of what We have bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant [Muhammad], [14] then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you [15] -if what you say is true!

11:13 (Asad) and so they assert, "[Muhammad himself] has invented this [Qur'an)!" [23] Say [unto them]: "Produce, then, ten surahs of similar merit, invented [by yourselves], and [to this end] call to your aid whomever you can, other than, God, if what you say is true!

Muslims may be able to explain away other contradictions by saying it was abrogation, the usual excuse that always works even though it proves Allah imperfect in the process, but in this case how could there be anything that would cause the required number of suras created without Allah's help to prove Muhammad a fraud to increase tenfold? Allah had already admitted that even 1 similar sura would suffice to prove Muhammad invented the Quran. Why would we then accept his later assertion that it actually requires 10? What possible reason could there be for that "abrogation"? Did Allah realize that it's actually easy to create 1-9 suras but impossible to create 10? It's either possible to create a sura of equal merit to those of the Quran or it's not. If it's possible to create one then it's obviously also possible to do the same thing 9 more times. There would be no reason to ever increase the number from one.

[manfred]

What is highly suspect from the start is that the Qur'an speaks about itself in the first place, and then finds it appropriate to place empty challenges onto what is supposed to be the word of a god.

First make one verse like it then 10... maybe just one was too easy?

Allah thought uuuh, aaaah, one verse, I get caught out, better make it 10. Allah always shifts and changes his mind... or rather old Mo does

Also, if I call God to help, by implication I , or anyone, can produce any number of verses? That is why I am not allowed to ask for the help of God? What kind of religious text is asking people to produce something worthwhile and religiously insightful, without reference to God?

The brag is "Look, it's not a fake... you try if you can." Well, pretty much anyone making a serious effort could produce something a lot better that the Qur'an. Ten verses in 10 minutes, no hassle.

The crazy thing is Muslims reserve judgement as to any such effort is better for themselves. ONLY they can decide. So, of course nobody ever can...

[marduk]

We should be able to call on God and ask him for a surah like in the Quran and if he gives us one then we know that Muhammad was a fake and also that we are in fact God's new Apostle, because he's talking to us. By not letting us call on God to help us Muhammad is preventing a fair test. Why was he afraid to let us have God help us with our invented surahs? Because he knew that we were the real Prophets and he wasn't.

[iffo]

I think Marduk brought a very good point. Why the hell he changed his mind from 1 to 10.
I doubt any Muslim will take it. For last 1400 years they been shoving all this kind a stuff under the carpet , but thanks to Internet it's all out there now.

Eagle, Ghaith, MM any proud Muslim will answer this?

[ringmaster]

The koran is full of imperfections and contradictions, and since bitch boy allah is supposed to be "perfect", all we need to do is show one single imperfection to show that the whole ideology is sh!t.

There are lots of them, but one is enough. Our burden of proof begins and ends there.

[marduk]

Must agree, even this singe direct contradiction with no reasonable explanation is sufficient to render Islam a false religion made up by a false prophet. So far, not one Muslim on earth has been able to rebutt this conclusive evidence.

Now here's the really interesting thing, according to wikislam surah 2 (Baqara) is chronologically surah number 87 and surah 11 (Hud) is number 52, so Allah actually decreased the number of surahs rather than increased them. Somebody must have pointed out that if 1 surah could be made up which has merit equal to Quran surahs then obviously 9 more could also be made up. However, by making it easier for Unbelievers to prove that Muhammad invented the Quran Allah has done something which makes no sense. Why would he help the Unbelievers like that? Did they complain that the requirements were too high so he reduced it by 90%? Wouldn't want to upset the Unbelievers.

The surah with the number 10 was composed in Mecca and the surah with the number 1 was composed later in Medina. Therefore this is a completely unexplainable contradiction. Would Muslims have us believe that Allah abrogated the first requirement for proving Muhammad a false prophet and reduced it drastically? How would that have helped Allah, Muhammad or anyone other than the Unbelievers? This is therefore the absolute Islam killing contradiction which Muslims can never escape. All we have to do is keep bringing it up every time we speak to a Muslim and they will eventually all give up and admit that Islam was invented by Muhammad. Sorry I had to prove your religion a fraud, Muslims, but you irritated me with the terrorism and unfair laws so I had little choice.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological ... e_Qur%27an

[skynightblaze]

Now here's the really interesting thing, according to wikislam surah 2 (Baqara) is chronologically surah number 87 and surah 11 (Hud) is number 52, so Allah actually decreased the number of surahs rather than increased them. Somebody must have pointed out that if 1 surah could be made up which has merit equal to Quran surahs then obviously 9 more could also be made up. However, by making it easier for Unbelievers to prove that Muhammad invented the Quran Allah has done something which makes no sense. Why would he help the Unbelievers like that? Did they complain that the requirements were too high so he reduced it by 90%? Wouldn't want to upset the Unbelievers.

Muslims can argue here that Allah is so confident that none can match his revelation and therefore revised his challenge to actually prove that unbelievers cannot make even 1 surah let alone 10 however it still does not answer a very fundamental question. Why did he prescribe 10 in the first place when even asking for 1 was sufficient?? Why did Allah have to revise ? He could said 1 surah the very first time. This is a case demonstrating that Allah is not all knowing.

[Fernando]

The challenge was actually to say them out loud. No way could anyone have read out ten, by the time Mo was running Medina, without having their head cut off. So to survive and say one was enough of a challenge.

[skynightblaze]

The challenge was actually to say them out loud. No way could anyone have read out ten, by the time Mo was running Medina, without having their head cut off. So to survive and say one was enough of a challenge.

Where does the verse speak about reading out loud?

[Fernando]

Where does the verse speak about reading out loud?

How else would the illiterate Mo know that his verses had been surpassed?

[skynightblaze]

Where does the verse speak about reading out loud?

How else would the illiterate Mo know that his verses had been surpassed?

Muhammad was literate according to ahadith i.e he could read and write however Muhammad and wisdom were cut throat enemies so I do not think he would be able to judge if someone came up with a better verse irrespective of the form i.e. audio or a written text. The verse asks the disbelievers to produce something similar to quran and i think it was asking for written text.

[Eagle]

Though I mentioned this contradiction in another forum topic it's so severe that I think I should also mention it in Islam Questioned. It is rather obvious that the number 1 is considerably different from the number 10. Which of the following two ayats are the true one and which is the false one, because they can't both be true. Abrogation is not a valid excuse in this case because Allah didn't provide an explanation for why the number would need to be changed.

2:23 (Asad) And if you doubt any part of what We have bestowed from on high, step by step, upon Our servant [Muhammad], [14] then produce a surah of similar merit, and call upon any other than God to bear witness for you [15] -if what you say is true!

11:13 (Asad) and so they assert, "[Muhammad himself] has invented this [Qur'an)!" [23] Say [unto them]: "Produce, then, ten surahs of similar merit, invented [by yourselves], and [to this end] call to your aid whomever you can, other than, God, if what you say is true!

Muslims may be able to explain away other contradictions by saying it was abrogation, the usual excuse that always works even though it proves Allah imperfect in the process, but in this case how could there be anything that would cause the required number of suras created without Allah's help to prove Muhammad a fraud to increase tenfold? Allah had already admitted that even 1 similar sura would suffice to prove Muhammad invented the Quran. Why would we then accept his later assertion that it actually requires 10? What possible reason could there be for that "abrogation"? Did Allah realize that it's actually easy to create 1-9 suras but impossible to create 10? It's either possible to create a sura of equal merit to those of the Quran or it's not. If it's possible to create one then it's obviously also possible to do the same thing 9 more times. There would be no reason to ever increase the number from one.

It is the other way around. The challenge was made easier to those who did not grasp its obvious purpose, rather than made harder.

The Quran challenges humanity and jinns to produce a similar book in 17:88, then the challenge was reduced to 10 Suras 11:13 and finally 1 Sura in 2:23, some Suras are very short the shortest being al-Kawthar with only 3 sentences. This means that the challenge is not that much about difficulty, the true challenge lies elsewhere.

The Sura like that of the Quran must be in the same Arabic language, and since the Quran claims to come from God, the Sura like it must also claim divine authorship, and the divine author must testify in support of it as Allah does throughout the Quran 10:38,11:13"and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful". Even if the forger claims to have overcome the literary challenge of producing a similar Sura, and in addition supports his work with the testimony of what he alleges is the True God, in reality he hasnt fulfilled the challenge because there is no other God than the One Who authored the Quran 64:13,2:24"But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers". By flagging this criteria of bringing those other deities for testimony in order to fulfill the challenge as an impossibility, the Quran is further confirming that the challenge is not really about difficulty, but to expose something else: the degree of sinfulness and rejection of the enemies of Islam as opposed to challenging their mastery of the language. It is concerned in exposing what hatred can do to the human capacity to reason properly. How can one possibly decide to take on the challenge, and bring the testimony of other god(s) when the Quran clearly tells them there cannot be another God than its author? If i tell you there isnt any other painter than mine and that on this basis i will reject anything you bring me, it means im not challenging your ability to come up with a painting since i know very well that you can claim, just as me, that your painting was done by a true painter other than mine.
So it means my challenge is designed at showing what your hatred for me does to your reasoning capabilities; instead of telling me "Why do you challenge me to bring a drawing by another painter when you'll never accept my painter as true" you decide nevetheless to go on and bring me a painting that i'll never recognize.

This claim of the Quran that there cannot be any other God than its Author, therefore canceling any attempt by the forger and further confirming his degree of disbelief, is a fact none will ever be able to verify in this world whether for the Quran's claim of Divine origin or the forged sura's. This will only become fact in the Hereafter, in accordance with the principle that the whole purpose of life is to have faith before seeing the facts. This is why Muslims are told to believe in the Quran's Divine authorship no matter what answer the critic gives to the challenge, whether he brings his suras (which the Quran says can never be true 2:24) or whether he remains silent 11:14"But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by Allah's knowledge and that there is no god but He". This is similar to other instance where the Quran, to test if its addressees still have any sense, issues a simple challenge that a person can easily meet if he disbelieves and rejects the Quran. In 6:150 it asks those who have heavily innovated in religious regulations to bear witness, and bring others to testify with them that God has effectively sanctionned their laws, while at the same time telling the prophet that if they do bear witness it doesnt mean they have passed the challenge succesfully, rather they have failed and exposed their degree of disbelief "then if they bear witness, do not bear witness with them; and follow not the low desires of those who reject Our communications and of those who do not believe in the hereafter, and they make (others) equal to their Lord". The challenge, like that of bringing a similar sura, is to test the person in his degree of disbelief if he decides to go on with the challenge, or cause those with some righteousness left in them to realise that in fact they are following nothing but conjecture for God has never really sanctionned their innovations. And effectively, in the following verse, the Quran lays down Allah's basic regulations into which they have innovated so again, like for the sura challenge where God issues the challenge and explains at the same time that it is impossible to pass, here God challenges them to bear witness that He has sanctionned their innovation while at the same time telling them what He has sanctionned in reality.

[piscohot]

The challenge was made easier to those who did not grasp its obvious purpose, rather than made harder.

the fact that there is a god who is so insecure that He needed to keep challenging man to produce something like Him, is plain ridiculous and immature

[Jimi]

Judging the quality of written word, music or poety is very subjective. What I think is good may be trash to someone else. How do you decide what is "better". It is like arguing about what color is better.

Why would Allah make such a wishy washy test for his glouirous Quran and for Mohammed's (allahs prayers be on him) prophethood. Such an important proof should not be so subjective. One can always argue that the Quran is still better. Is Allah not too smart?

[marduk]

Judging the quality of written word, music or poety is very subjective. What I think is good may be trash to someone else. How do you decide what is "better". It is like arguing about what color is better.

Why would Allah make such a wishy washy test for his glouirous Quran and for Mohammed's (allahs prayers be on him) prophethood. Such an important proof should not be so subjective. One can always argue that the Quran is still better. Is Allah not too smart?

Yup, that was pretty dumb of Allah to say that all we have to do to prove that the Quran was invented by Muhammad is to make even one surah of equal merit to those in the Quran. That means that literally anybody can easily do it. The Quran surahs look like they were written by a 12 year old anyway. How hard is it to equal a 12 year old at making up silly verses? All you need to do is read some fables of the Jews in a midrash and then reword it slightly. Then put some Arabic letters before it and at the end put something like "and Allah knows all that you do", a completely unrelated subject to what was just discussed in the surah. That's how Allah ends his messages, by adding a completely gratuitous statement about himself.