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Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science

Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Nosubmission » Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:57 pm

In the Qur'an the first account of Jesus' birth is given in Surah 19, which belongs to the Mecca period.

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. (Surah 19:19 Pickthall)
He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained. (Surah 19:21 Pickthall)

According to this early narrative, the angel/messenger of the Lord visits Mary and announces the birth of a son from her. Interestingly, Mary does not know how she will name the son that will be born of her since her visitor deprives her of this information. The narrator of Surah 19 gives the name of Mary's son in verse 34 while making comments on Christian tenets and rebuking Christians for calling Jesus the Son of God:

Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. (Surah 19:34 Pickthall)

Thus, the account of annunciation and Mary's delivery in Surah 19 does not contain the name Jesus.

However, in Surah 3 the story of Jesus' birth is once more related with variations, and this time the angels visiting Mary tell her that her son will have the name Messiah Jesus:

(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). (Surah 3:45 Pickthall)

(Note that the so-called angelic message in Surah 3 goes redundant as it tells Mary that Mary's son will be called Mary's son! :D )

Here comes the question: why is this difference? Why in Surah 19 Mary was not told the simple and basic name of her son whereas in Surah 3 she was revealed even the redundant information about her son's name/s?

Any ideas? :*)
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby zamie » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:52 am

The koran repeats itself about everything.

The koran speaks at least three times about the story of noah.
The koran speaks at least three times about the story of moses (and has variations)
And now we have this jesus story too..

In these examples, sometimes details are added, and sometimes they are left out, and sometimes the two stories conflict. I really have no idea what the purpose was behind this. Perhaps the writer mohammed or whoever wrote it, could not think of anything else to write, so he just repeated the same stuff.. This is most probably true, as the koran is much shorter in comparison to the bible and torah...

http://www.searchtruth.com/showWords.php?translator=1
http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/698, ... Torah.html
http://www.goodnewsmedia.com/bible.stud ... tionsb.htm
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

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-- Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Nosubmission » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:15 am

Zamie, thanks for your reply. It targets the general problem of inconsistent repetition in the Qur'an.

It is not easy for us to solve the mysteries and decipher the cryptic references of the Islamic scripture unless we discover its ties with the apocryphal writings that Muhammad copied from while devising his book.

The two narratives about Mary and Jesus in the Qur'an (Surah 19 and Surah 3) were derived from TWO distinct and independent non-canonical Gospels of Infancy. The source of the account in Surah 19 is the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew whilst of that in Surah 3 is the Gospel of James.

The source of Surah 19: The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew

According to Pseudo-Matthew's narrative, Mary was visited by a MAN of ineffable beauty while she was sewing something:

Again, on the third day, while she was working at the purple with her fingers, there entered a young man of ineffable beauty. And when Mary saw him, she exceedingly feared and trembled. And he said to her: Hail, Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And when she heard these words, she trembled, and was exceedingly afraid. Then the angel of the Lord added: Fear not, Mary; for you have found favour with God: Behold, you shall conceive in your womb, and shall bring forth a King, who fills not only the earth, but the heaven, and who reigns from generation to generation. (Pseudo-Matthew chapter 9)

Muhammad heard about this story and decided to adopt it into Surah 19. Note the similarities:

And took a veil to shroud herself from them: and we sent our spirit to her, and he took before her the form of a perfect man. She said, I fly for refuge unto the merciful [God, that he may defend me] from thee: If thou fearest [him, thou wilt not approach me]. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. (Surah 19:17-19)

Muhammad's plagiarism from Pseudo-Matthew is evident. He said that a messenger visited Mary in the form of a perfect man and that Mary was exceedingly afraid of him: this was what had been written in Pseudo-Matthew! However, Muhammad failed to understand why the account in Pseudo-Matthew talked about a veil and associated it with Mary right in the account of the annunciation. Muhammad only said that Mary took a veil, and Muslim commentators thought it was a veil that helped Mary seclude herself from people. Actually, it was the veil of the TEMPLE! Mary was sewing the veil of the Temple when she was visited by an angelic messenger. Pseudo-Matthew made this clear in the previous chapter of his Gospel although that detail escaped Muhammad's notice:

For they cast lots among themselves what each virgin should do, and the purple for the veil of the temple of the Lord fell to the lot of Mary. (Pseudo-Matthew chapter 8)

Now let's get back to the main topic of this thread: why the name of Mary's to-be-born child is given by the angels during the annunciation in Surah 3 although it is not given until Surah 19:34, which comes right after the reference to baby Jesus' miraculous speech from the cradle.
The answer is simple: Muhammad copied the narrative of the angelic annunciation from Pseudo-Matthew ( as we have displayed above), and the visitor's prediction in that particular text did not include any information on this issue. This was most likely because the writer of this apocryphal Gospel claimed to be Apostle Matthew and did everything to sound credible when he attributed his book to Matthew. In oder to achieve parallelism with the canonical Gospel of Matthew, he had to teach that the birth and name of the child were announced to Joseph by an angel in his dream. Compare the following:

And when he was thinking of rising up and hiding himself, and dwelling in secret, behold, on that very night, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in sleep, saying: Joseph, you son of David, fear not; receive Mary as your wife: for that which is in her womb is of the Holy Spirit. And she shall bring forth a son, and His name shall be called Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. (Pseudo-Matthew chapter 11)

While his mother Mary was engaged to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph, her husband to be, was a righteous man, and because he did not want to disgrace her, he intended to divorce her privately. When he had contemplated this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, because the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son and you will name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:18-21)

Since Muhammad's version did not include the section of Pseudo-Matthew quoted above, but only the first and last angelic visitation narrated in Pseudo-Matthew chapter 9, it is not surprising to see that the name Jesus is missing from the account of Mary's visitation by a messenger in Surah 19.

Further, the narrative in Surah 19 gives the name of Mary's son as Jesus in verse 34 right after the verses that refer to Mary's son's miraculous speech from the cradle. In order to discover why the name Jesus appears in the 34th verse of chapter 19, we must first remember that Surah 19:29-30 were plagiarized by Muhammad from another apocryphal Gospel: the Arabic Gospel of the Savior's Infancy. Let's compare and contrast the following parts:

We find what follows in the book of Joseph the high priest, who lived in the time of Christ. Some say that he is Caiaphas. He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom you have brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to you; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world. (Arabic Gospel of Infancy chapter 1)

Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy? He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet (Surah 19:29-30)

Obviously, Muhammad borrowed this miraculous incident and incorporated it into Surah 19 after drastic textual modifications. The interesting point is that in the first chapter of the Arabic Gospel, Jesus is overtly called the Christ/Messiah. However, Muhammad did not understand until after his migration to Medina that the word Christ was a title ascribed to Jesus. Consequently, he did not include it into the Meccan chapters making references to Mary's son. He did not have to care about this either, for in the peculiar part he copied from the apocryphal Gospel in Arabic, Mary's son identified Himself as Jesus, not as Christ. Muhammad inserted the name Jesus into verse 34, where he criticized Christians for calling Jesus the Son of God right after the reference to baby Jesus' miraculous speech.

The source of Surah 3: The Gospel of James

In Surah 3, however, Muhammad forgot about the previous narrative about Mary and Jesus in Surah 19 and gave a contradictory account. This was because he plagiarized from the Gospel of James while creating the story in Surah 3 after his migration. To compare:

(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

And behold an angel of the Lord stood before her saying: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace before the Lord of all things, and thou shalt conceive of his word. And she, when she heard it, questioned in herself, saying: Shall I verily conceive of the living God, and bring forth after the manner of all women ? And the angel of the Lord said: Not so, Mary, for a power of the Lord shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of the Highest. And thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Gospel of James chapter 11)

Unlike Surah 19, Surah 3 identifies Jesus as a word from Allah because the Gospel of James did so unlike the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew. Similarly, unlike the narrative of the annunciation in Surah 19, the narrative of the annunciation in Surah 3 includes the name Jesus because the writer of the Gospel of James followed Evangelist Luke when he said that the angel announcing to Mary told her the name of her to-be-born son (see Luke 1:31) unlike Pseudo-Matthew, who inserted the name Jesus only into the account of the annunciation delivered to Joseph. The more we find out the differences between the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew and that of James, the more we can understand why the narrative about Mary and Jesus in Surah 19 is different from that in Surah 3.

It must be noted that Muhammad did not only copy from these apocryphal Gospels of Infancy, but also distorted the information given in them. This is why it is natural to see differences between the original versions of the stories and Muhammad's false copies. For example, it is written in the Gospel of James that the angel visiting Mary only said that the child to be born would be called JESUS, which is more accurate than the information given in Surah 3:45 since Mary did not call her son the Messiah or Son of Mary! Muhammad simply added those words while distorting the apocryphal text. As he repeatedly called Jesus “the Son of Mary” in most of the chapters and mistakenly thought that the title Christ (al-Masih) was Jesus' second name, he rushed to attach them to the name Jesus even in the account of the angelic annunciation. This proves that Muhammad was not only a reckless borrower, but also a blind one that made mistakes due to his strategy of perversion.
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby AhmedBahgat » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:07 pm

Nosubmission wrote:In the Qur'an the first account of Jesus' birth is given in Surah 19, which belongs to the Mecca period.

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. (Surah 19:19 Pickthall)
He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained. (Surah 19:21 Pickthall)

According to this early narrative, the angel/messenger of the Lord visits Mary and announces the birth of a son from her. Interestingly, Mary does not know how she will name the son that will be born of her since her visitor deprives her of this information. The narrator of Surah 19 gives the name of Mary's son in verse 34 while making comments on Christian tenets and rebuking Christians for calling Jesus the Son of God:

Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. (Surah 19:34 Pickthall)

Thus, the account of annunciation and Mary's delivery in Surah 19 does not contain the name Jesus.

However, in Surah 3 the story of Jesus' birth is once more related with variations, and this time the angels visiting Mary tell her that her son will have the name Messiah Jesus:

(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah). (Surah 3:45 Pickthall)

(Note that the so-called angelic message in Surah 3 goes redundant as it tells Mary that Mary's son will be called Mary's son! :D )

Here comes the question: why is this difference? Why in Surah 19 Mary was not told the simple and basic name of her son whereas in Surah 3 she was revealed even the redundant information about her son's name/s?

Any ideas? :*)


You stupid dumb fuk of an idol worshiper, 19:19-21 is a totally different event to 3:45

Dismiss yourself you desperate and hell bound idol worshiper.
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby AhmedBahgat » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:10 pm

Here it is, you stupid and confused hell bound christian, it was slam dunk #1 from my slam dunk show:
---------
Hello all

I just found out that I'm flying on the 4th of June, therefore I will have not much time to reply to all the crap and allegation by seeker, but I'm not going to mock around either, so I will find the ones that I slam dunked before and reply to it again, let me start with the first slam dunk:

truthseeker2 wrote:How many angels were talking to Mary?

In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.

Or was it in fact,

In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.


Hahahahahaha, that is the same crap by Dr Sina who posted it on FFI Arabic section, I replied to such stupidity ages ago:

Hello All

Dr Ali Sina claims on his web site (The Arabic section) the following:

ما هو عدد الملائكة التي أرسلت إلى مريم؟

(آل عمران) إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ 45

تشير إلى عدة ملائكة

(مريم) فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا 17 قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا 18 قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا 19 قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا 20 قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا 21

تشير إلى ملاك واحد


Here is the English translation to the verses:

3:45. When THE ANGELS SAID: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
3:47. She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
3:48. And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.


19:16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
19:17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.
19:18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
19:19. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
19:20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
19:21. He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Remember boys and girls, we want a clear cut contradiction certain one, please bear this in mind, my job is not to make you believe in what the Quran verses say, my job is only to show you that the alleged contradiction can NOT be a clear cut contradiction because it is doubtful and can't be admissible as an evidence by Dr Ali Sina, In fact he is embarrassing himself by claiming that this is a contradiction, let me prove to you and to the Dr, and if really Dr Ali Sina is looking for the truth as he claims for years then I expect him to be a man and concede that he got it totally wrong.

In the following verses we read the Quran is telling us that a group of Angels visited Mary:

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)
قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (47)

[The Quran ; 3:45-47]

-> In 3:45 we read that a group of Angels visited Mary: When THE ANGELS SAID, they actually were there to only tell her of a future event, this is clear from the Arabic word Yobashirik يُبَشِّرُكِ , This Bushra, The Good News is :: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). , THERE IS NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR MISSION WAS TO EXECUTE THIS GOOD NEWS FROM ALLAH, 3:46 and 3:47 are the rest of the supposed dialogue between the Angels and Mary and again we see no indication that they came to execute this good news, rather to tell her what is about to happen in the near future.

The important note that I found is this, it seems the same very Angels also visited Zachariah to give him another good news to his family, remember that Mary was living with Zachariah at this time, The visit to Zachariah by the Angels was mentioned just a few verses earlier:

37: So her Lord accepted her with a good acceptance and made her grow up a good growing, and gave her into the charge of Zakariya; whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. He said: O Marium! whence comes this to you? She said: It is from Allah. Surely Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure.

38: There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

39: Then the Angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

40: He said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and old age has already come upon me, and my wife is barren? He said: even thus does Allah what He pleases.

41: He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning.

42: And when the Angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

43: O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

44: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

45: When the Angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[The Quran ; 3:37-45]

فَتَقَبَّلَهَا رَبُّهَا بِقَبُولٍ حَسَنٍ وَأَنبَتَهَا نَبَاتًا حَسَنًا وَكَفَّلَهَا زَكَرِيَّا كُلَّمَا دَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا زَكَرِيَّا الْمِحْرَابَ وَجَدَ عِندَهَا رِزْقاً قَالَ يَا مَرْيَمُ أَنَّى لَكِ هَذَا قَالَتْ هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ إنَّ اللّهَ يَرْزُقُ مَن يَشَاء بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ (37)
هُنَالِكَ دَعَا زَكَرِيَّا رَبَّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاء (38)
فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)
قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىَ يَكُونُ لِي غُلاَمٌ وَقَدْ بَلَغَنِيَ الْكِبَرُ وَامْرَأَتِي عَاقِرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكَ اللّهُ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء (40)
قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّيَ آيَةً قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلاَّ تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ إِلاَّ رَمْزًا وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ كَثِيرًا وَسَبِّحْ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالإِبْكَارِ (41)
وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ (42)
يَا مَرْيَمُ اقْنُتِي لِرَبِّكِ وَاسْجُدِي وَارْكَعِي مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ (43)
ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنبَاء الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيكَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يُلْقُون أَقْلاَمَهُمْ أَيُّهُمْ يَكْفُلُ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يَخْتَصِمُونَ (44)
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)

-> Very clear that it is the same Angels who visited Zachariah at the same time, I agree it is not conclusive but there are two important points that must be considered :

1) She was living with Zachariah at that time whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37)
2) Zachariah and Mary received good news regarding their upcoming children

You have to also consider that there is nothing conclusive to suggest it was two different visits to both of them, I'm sure they met each in their own place but it sounds to me and according to the above verses that it was the same visit from the heaven to earth by the same Angels

Now the enemy of Islam suggest that the above verses conflict with the following verses in which we read ONLY ONE ANGEL VISITING HER TO EXECUTE THE GOOD NEWS:

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا (16)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا (17)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا (18)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا (19)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا (20)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا (21)
فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَانتَبَذَتْ بِهِ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا (22)

[The Quran ; 19:16-22]

Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48

Let me prove it to you:

In the earlier event we read: whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37), so she was in the sanctuary and Zachariah was allowed to enter regularly and check on her

In 19:16 we read:And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, i. logically e. she was in a chamber looking east where she withdrawn from her family, therefore Zachariah would have not been able to check on her as we read before, 19:17 confirms that : And had chosen seclusion from them

In addition to that, in 3:46, Mary and Zachariah didn't seem to be talking directly to the Angels, because their replies were O Allah.. as we read in 3:40 and 3:41 by Zachariah and in 3:47 by Mary when they responded to the good news said by the Angels, it seems there is a secret and divine way in how the Angels communicate with these righteous humans, I don't really know but it is clear that their replies were to Allah not to the Angels despite the Angels were the ones who said the good news to them.

But in 19:17 we see one Angel that morphed into a human being and Mary was talking directly to him, in fact she was horrified when she saw him, we didn't see this by Mary in the other earlier event in 3:45-48:

Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.

Then she was horrified and talked directly to him:

She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

Then he told her that his job was to execute the good news told to her before by the other Angels:

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

PLEASE NOTE THAT IN HERE WE READ: : I am only a messenger of thy Lord, but we didn't read that in the other event by the Angels neither to Zachariah nor to Mary, this clearly means it is a different event

She wondered again but this time she was serious because she mentioned that she has not been unchaste:

She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

compare the above Second wonder in this event with the First wonder in the earlier event in 3:47:

She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

She never mentioned not being unchaste in 3:47, because it was a future event that she might have thought will come through a normal connection between a man and woman according to Allah Will, but in 19:20 the execution time she worried that she will be called unchaste, and certainly the Jews did call her as such

Then the Angel responded :

He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Then the Angel executed the good news:

So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Totally different events, there is no question about it, we didn't see a direct dialogue between Mary and the Angels in the first event because she was responding back to Allah not to them, but in the second event she was clearly dialoguing to one Angel in the shape of a man that scared her first

The enemy of the Quran are running crazy they resort to their common fallacy which is to compare apples with mangos, why not thinking who created the apples and mangos that they eat from the first place, I guess this is better for them than wasting the believers time in responding to some contradictions they created in their Barbie world of delusions

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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Nosubmission » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:45 pm

AhmedBahgat wrote:
You stupid dumb fuk of an idol worshiper, 19:19-21 is a totally different event to 3:45

Dismiss yourself you desperate and hell bound idol worshiper.


NO, it is the SAME event taken from two distinct Gospels of Infancy, as beautifully explained in my post above.

You are so pathetic and mentally sick that you repeated your stupid response without even reading my post.

Your whole stupid theory is based on the CLAIM that there were TWO distinct annunciations delivered to Mary, for which you have no proof. Why would Allah need to announce the same glad tidings to Mary twice? Was Mary stupid to pose the same question (How can I have son?) the second time she supposedly got the same message? Absolutely ridiculous!

Thanks for bringing up the difference concerning the number of angels announcing to Mary in Surah 19 and Surah 3. Here is the reason for this discrepancy:

In Surah 19 Muhammad said that Mary was visited by a messenger who appeared as a perfect man because he copied Pseudo-Matthew chapter 9, which says that the good news of Jesus' birth was delivered to Mary by a man of ineffable beauty while she was sewing the veil of the Temple.

In contrast to this, Muhammad taught in Surah 3 that Mary was not visited by a messenger who appeared as a perfect man, but by a few angels. This was because he copied from the Gospel of James while inventing Surah 3. Let's see what the Gospel of James says on this issue:

And she took the pitcher and went forth to fill it with water: and lo a voice saying: Hail, thou that art highly favoured; the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And she looked about her upon the right hand and upon the left, to see whence this voice should be: and being filled with trembling she~ went to her house and set down the pitcher, and took the purple and sat down upon her seat and drew out the thread. And behold an angel of the Lord stood before her saying: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace before the Lord of all things, and thou shalt conceive of his word. And she, when she heard it, questioned in herself, saying: Shall I verily conceive of the living God, and bring forth after the manner of all women ? And the angel of the Lord said: Not so, Mary, for a power of the Lord shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of the Highest. And thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord is before him: be it unto me according to thy word.

According to the Gospel of James, Mary first heard an angelic message when she went to fill her pitcher and then a second time when she entered the house. These were two separate incidents. Muhammad, however, combined these two incidents and naturally said that Mary was visited once by many angels. Still, Muhammad's confusion is best seen in the following verse:

She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. (Surah 3:47)

Who does the word HE refer to in this verse? There is an abrupt and awkward transition from plural (angels) to singular (he). Who speaks here? Not angels for sure, but an angel or God Himself? Compare this with Surah 19:21 to be sure that the speaker here is not God:

He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

We understand that the speaker here is one single angel, which is in harmony with the account in the Gospel of James again! :D

Go back to the ass of Muhammad's prophetic camel, you follower of the pagan jigolo of the desert. :lol:
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Nosubmission » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:02 pm

AhmedBahgat wrote:-> In 3:45 we read that a group of Angels visited Mary: When THE ANGELS SAID, they actually were there to only tell her of a future event, this is clear from the Arabic word Yobashirik يُبَشِّرُكِ , This Bushra, The Good News is :: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). , THERE IS NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR MISSION WAS TO EXECUTE THIS GOOD NEWS FROM ALLAH, 3:46 and 3:47 are the rest of the supposed dialogue between the Angels and Mary and again we see no indication that they came to execute this good news, rather to tell her what is about to happen in the near future.


You totally forget that Surah 19 says nothing about Mary's affiliation with Zechariah. Do you know why? Because your pagan prophet copied the narrative about Mary and Jesus in Surah 19 from the Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew, which by NO MEANS affiliated Mary with Zechariah! :lol:

AhmedBahgat wrote:Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48


Is this all you can say? LOL So you mean your stupid ilah revealed the story of the fulfillment in Surah 19, but said NOTHING about the prediction, that was supposedly related in the late period of the Qur'an? ROTFL

AhmedBahgat wrote:Let me prove it to you:

In the earlier event we read: whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37), so she was in the sanctuary and Zachariah was allowed to enter regularly and check on her



EARLIER event, which was recounted several chapters later? No link between the prediction and the fulfillment? You are so funny! Thanks for the laugh. :roflmao:
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Marie » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:30 am

AhmedBahgat

You stupid dumb fuk of an idol worshiper, 19:19-21 is a totally different event to 3:45

Dismiss yourself you desperate and hell bound idol worshiper.


Hey AhmedBahgat Muslims kiss the vagina that is on the kaba. Does that mean they are going to hell too?
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Marie » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:35 am

Spoiler! :
AhmedBahgat wrote:Here it is, you stupid and confused hell bound christian, it was slam dunk #1 from my slam dunk show:
---------
Hello all

I just found out that I'm flying on the 4th of June, therefore I will have not much time to reply to all the crap and allegation by seeker, but I'm not going to mock around either, so I will find the ones that I slam dunked before and reply to it again, let me start with the first slam dunk:

truthseeker2 wrote:How many angels were talking to Mary?

In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.

Or was it in fact,

In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.


Hahahahahaha, that is the same crap by Dr Sina who posted it on FFI Arabic section, I replied to such stupidity ages ago:

Hello All

Dr Ali Sina claims on his web site (The Arabic section) the following:

ما هو عدد الملائكة التي أرسلت إلى مريم؟

(آل عمران) إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ 45

تشير إلى عدة ملائكة

(مريم) فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا 17 قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا 18 قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا 19 قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا 20 قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا 21

تشير إلى ملاك واحد


Here is the English translation to the verses:

3:45. When THE ANGELS SAID: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
3:47. She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
3:48. And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.


19:16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
19:17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.
19:18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
19:19. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
19:20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
19:21. He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Remember boys and girls, we want a clear cut contradiction certain one, please bear this in mind, my job is not to make you believe in what the Quran verses say, my job is only to show you that the alleged contradiction can NOT be a clear cut contradiction because it is doubtful and can't be admissible as an evidence by Dr Ali Sina, In fact he is embarrassing himself by claiming that this is a contradiction, let me prove to you and to the Dr, and if really Dr Ali Sina is looking for the truth as he claims for years then I expect him to be a man and concede that he got it totally wrong.

In the following verses we read the Quran is telling us that a group of Angels visited Mary:

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)
قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (47)

[The Quran ; 3:45-47]

-> In 3:45 we read that a group of Angels visited Mary: When THE ANGELS SAID, they actually were there to only tell her of a future event, this is clear from the Arabic word Yobashirik يُبَشِّرُكِ , This Bushra, The Good News is :: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). , THERE IS NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR MISSION WAS TO EXECUTE THIS GOOD NEWS FROM ALLAH, 3:46 and 3:47 are the rest of the supposed dialogue between the Angels and Mary and again we see no indication that they came to execute this good news, rather to tell her what is about to happen in the near future.

The important note that I found is this, it seems the same very Angels also visited Zachariah to give him another good news to his family, remember that Mary was living with Zachariah at this time, The visit to Zachariah by the Angels was mentioned just a few verses earlier:

37: So her Lord accepted her with a good acceptance and made her grow up a good growing, and gave her into the charge of Zakariya; whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. He said: O Marium! whence comes this to you? She said: It is from Allah. Surely Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure.

38: There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

39: Then the Angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

40: He said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and old age has already come upon me, and my wife is barren? He said: even thus does Allah what He pleases.

41: He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning.

42: And when the Angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

43: O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

44: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

45: When the Angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[The Quran ; 3:37-45]

فَتَقَبَّلَهَا رَبُّهَا بِقَبُولٍ حَسَنٍ وَأَنبَتَهَا نَبَاتًا حَسَنًا وَكَفَّلَهَا زَكَرِيَّا كُلَّمَا دَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا زَكَرِيَّا الْمِحْرَابَ وَجَدَ عِندَهَا رِزْقاً قَالَ يَا مَرْيَمُ أَنَّى لَكِ هَذَا قَالَتْ هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ إنَّ اللّهَ يَرْزُقُ مَن يَشَاء بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ (37)
هُنَالِكَ دَعَا زَكَرِيَّا رَبَّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاء (38)
فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)
قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىَ يَكُونُ لِي غُلاَمٌ وَقَدْ بَلَغَنِيَ الْكِبَرُ وَامْرَأَتِي عَاقِرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكَ اللّهُ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء (40)
قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّيَ آيَةً قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلاَّ تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ إِلاَّ رَمْزًا وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ كَثِيرًا وَسَبِّحْ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالإِبْكَارِ (41)
وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ (42)
يَا مَرْيَمُ اقْنُتِي لِرَبِّكِ وَاسْجُدِي وَارْكَعِي مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ (43)
ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنبَاء الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيكَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يُلْقُون أَقْلاَمَهُمْ أَيُّهُمْ يَكْفُلُ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يَخْتَصِمُونَ (44)
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)

-> Very clear that it is the same Angels who visited Zachariah at the same time, I agree it is not conclusive but there are two important points that must be considered :

1) She was living with Zachariah at that time whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37)
2) Zachariah and Mary received good news regarding their upcoming children

You have to also consider that there is nothing conclusive to suggest it was two different visits to both of them, I'm sure they met each in their own place but it sounds to me and according to the above verses that it was the same visit from the heaven to earth by the same Angels

Now the enemy of Islam suggest that the above verses conflict with the following verses in which we read ONLY ONE ANGEL VISITING HER TO EXECUTE THE GOOD NEWS:

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا (16)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا (17)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا (18)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا (19)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا (20)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا (21)
فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَانتَبَذَتْ بِهِ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا (22)

[The Quran ; 19:16-22]

Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48

Let me prove it to you:

In the earlier event we read: whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37), so she was in the sanctuary and Zachariah was allowed to enter regularly and check on her

In 19:16 we read:And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, i. logically e. she was in a chamber looking east where she withdrawn from her family, therefore Zachariah would have not been able to check on her as we read before, 19:17 confirms that : And had chosen seclusion from them

In addition to that, in 3:46, Mary and Zachariah didn't seem to be talking directly to the Angels, because their replies were O Allah.. as we read in 3:40 and 3:41 by Zachariah and in 3:47 by Mary when they responded to the good news said by the Angels, it seems there is a secret and divine way in how the Angels communicate with these righteous humans, I don't really know but it is clear that their replies were to Allah not to the Angels despite the Angels were the ones who said the good news to them.

But in 19:17 we see one Angel that morphed into a human being and Mary was talking directly to him, in fact she was horrified when she saw him, we didn't see this by Mary in the other earlier event in 3:45-48:

Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.

Then she was horrified and talked directly to him:

She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

Then he told her that his job was to execute the good news told to her before by the other Angels:

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

PLEASE NOTE THAT IN HERE WE READ: : I am only a messenger of thy Lord, but we didn't read that in the other event by the Angels neither to Zachariah nor to Mary, this clearly means it is a different event

She wondered again but this time she was serious because she mentioned that she has not been unchaste:

She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

compare the above Second wonder in this event with the First wonder in the earlier event in 3:47:

She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

She never mentioned not being unchaste in 3:47, because it was a future event that she might have thought will come through a normal connection between a man and woman according to Allah Will, but in 19:20 the execution time she worried that she will be called unchaste, and certainly the Jews did call her as such

Then the Angel responded :

He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Then the Angel executed the good news:

So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Totally different events, there is no question about it, we didn't see a direct dialogue between Mary and the Angels in the first event because she was responding back to Allah not to them, but in the second event she was clearly dialoguing to one Angel in the shape of a man that scared her first

The enemy of the Quran are running crazy they resort to their common fallacy which is to compare apples with mangos, why not thinking who created the apples and mangos that they eat from the first place, I guess this is better for them than wasting the believers time in responding to some contradictions they created in their Barbie world of delusions

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The only thing this proves is that Muhammed had no problem plagiarizing stories from the Christians.
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby piscohot » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:09 am

Nosubmission wrote: Any ideas? :*)


As with most of the stories that are repeated in the quran -- no consistency.

003.047
She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!


019.020
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
019.021
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."


see the difference?

did Mary mention being chaste or not?
did Allah say he create what he willed or did Allah say He appointed Jesus as a Sign and Mercy to men?

the confused, muddled quran.
at least try to get your story straight before claiming to be a perfect and 'glorious' quran.


003.037
Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah: for Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure."


was Mary under the care of Zakariya or did she 'retire' to some eastern place as mentioned in 19:16?

And you can see Mary claiming to be provided food from Allah and yet when she was in pain from childbirth, you have a stupid verse telling her to go shake a palm tree!!! And dig for water!!!!!

crap
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Ghalibkhastahaal » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:41 am

Spoiler! :
AhmedBahgat wrote:Here it is, you stupid and confused hell bound christian, it was slam dunk #1 from my slam dunk show:
---------
Hello all

I just found out that I'm flying on the 4th of June, therefore I will have not much time to reply to all the crap and allegation by seeker, but I'm not going to mock around either, so I will find the ones that I slam dunked before and reply to it again, let me start with the first slam dunk:

truthseeker2 wrote:How many angels were talking to Mary?

In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.

Or was it in fact,

In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.


Hahahahahaha, that is the same crap by Dr Sina who posted it on FFI Arabic section, I replied to such stupidity ages ago:

Hello All

Dr Ali Sina claims on his web site (The Arabic section) the following:

ما هو عدد الملائكة التي أرسلت إلى مريم؟

(آل عمران) إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ 45

تشير إلى عدة ملائكة

(مريم) فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا 17 قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا 18 قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا 19 قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا 20 قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا 21

تشير إلى ملاك واحد


Here is the English translation to the verses:

3:45. When THE ANGELS SAID: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
3:47. She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
3:48. And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.


19:16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
19:17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.
19:18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
19:19. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
19:20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
19:21. He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Remember boys and girls, we want a clear cut contradiction certain one, please bear this in mind, my job is not to make you believe in what the Quran verses say, my job is only to show you that the alleged contradiction can NOT be a clear cut contradiction because it is doubtful and can't be admissible as an evidence by Dr Ali Sina, In fact he is embarrassing himself by claiming that this is a contradiction, let me prove to you and to the Dr, and if really Dr Ali Sina is looking for the truth as he claims for years then I expect him to be a man and concede that he got it totally wrong.

In the following verses we read the Quran is telling us that a group of Angels visited Mary:

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)
قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (47)

[The Quran ; 3:45-47]

-> In 3:45 we read that a group of Angels visited Mary: When THE ANGELS SAID, they actually were there to only tell her of a future event, this is clear from the Arabic word Yobashirik يُبَشِّرُكِ , This Bushra, The Good News is :: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). , THERE IS NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR MISSION WAS TO EXECUTE THIS GOOD NEWS FROM ALLAH, 3:46 and 3:47 are the rest of the supposed dialogue between the Angels and Mary and again we see no indication that they came to execute this good news, rather to tell her what is about to happen in the near future.

The important note that I found is this, it seems the same very Angels also visited Zachariah to give him another good news to his family, remember that Mary was living with Zachariah at this time, The visit to Zachariah by the Angels was mentioned just a few verses earlier:

37: So her Lord accepted her with a good acceptance and made her grow up a good growing, and gave her into the charge of Zakariya; whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. He said: O Marium! whence comes this to you? She said: It is from Allah. Surely Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure.

38: There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

39: Then the Angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

40: He said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and old age has already come upon me, and my wife is barren? He said: even thus does Allah what He pleases.

41: He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning.

42: And when the Angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

43: O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

44: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

45: When the Angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[The Quran ; 3:37-45]

فَتَقَبَّلَهَا رَبُّهَا بِقَبُولٍ حَسَنٍ وَأَنبَتَهَا نَبَاتًا حَسَنًا وَكَفَّلَهَا زَكَرِيَّا كُلَّمَا دَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا زَكَرِيَّا الْمِحْرَابَ وَجَدَ عِندَهَا رِزْقاً قَالَ يَا مَرْيَمُ أَنَّى لَكِ هَذَا قَالَتْ هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ إنَّ اللّهَ يَرْزُقُ مَن يَشَاء بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ (37)
هُنَالِكَ دَعَا زَكَرِيَّا رَبَّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاء (38)
فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)
قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىَ يَكُونُ لِي غُلاَمٌ وَقَدْ بَلَغَنِيَ الْكِبَرُ وَامْرَأَتِي عَاقِرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكَ اللّهُ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء (40)
قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّيَ آيَةً قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلاَّ تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ إِلاَّ رَمْزًا وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ كَثِيرًا وَسَبِّحْ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالإِبْكَارِ (41)
وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ (42)
يَا مَرْيَمُ اقْنُتِي لِرَبِّكِ وَاسْجُدِي وَارْكَعِي مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ (43)
ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنبَاء الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيكَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يُلْقُون أَقْلاَمَهُمْ أَيُّهُمْ يَكْفُلُ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يَخْتَصِمُونَ (44)
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)

-> Very clear that it is the same Angels who visited Zachariah at the same time, I agree it is not conclusive but there are two important points that must be considered :

1) She was living with Zachariah at that time whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37)
2) Zachariah and Mary received good news regarding their upcoming children

You have to also consider that there is nothing conclusive to suggest it was two different visits to both of them, I'm sure they met each in their own place but it sounds to me and according to the above verses that it was the same visit from the heaven to earth by the same Angels

Now the enemy of Islam suggest that the above verses conflict with the following verses in which we read ONLY ONE ANGEL VISITING HER TO EXECUTE THE GOOD NEWS:

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا (16)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا (17)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا (18)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا (19)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا (20)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا (21)
فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَانتَبَذَتْ بِهِ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا (22)

[The Quran ; 19:16-22]

Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48

Let me prove it to you:

In the earlier event we read: whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37), so she was in the sanctuary and Zachariah was allowed to enter regularly and check on her

In 19:16 we read:And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, i. logically e. she was in a chamber looking east where she withdrawn from her family, therefore Zachariah would have not been able to check on her as we read before, 19:17 confirms that : And had chosen seclusion from them

In addition to that, in 3:46, Mary and Zachariah didn't seem to be talking directly to the Angels, because their replies were O Allah.. as we read in 3:40 and 3:41 by Zachariah and in 3:47 by Mary when they responded to the good news said by the Angels, it seems there is a secret and divine way in how the Angels communicate with these righteous humans, I don't really know but it is clear that their replies were to Allah not to the Angels despite the Angels were the ones who said the good news to them.

But in 19:17 we see one Angel that morphed into a human being and Mary was talking directly to him, in fact she was horrified when she saw him, we didn't see this by Mary in the other earlier event in 3:45-48:

Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.

Then she was horrified and talked directly to him:

She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

Then he told her that his job was to execute the good news told to her before by the other Angels:

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

PLEASE NOTE THAT IN HERE WE READ: : I am only a messenger of thy Lord, but we didn't read that in the other event by the Angels neither to Zachariah nor to Mary, this clearly means it is a different event

She wondered again but this time she was serious because she mentioned that she has not been unchaste:

She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

compare the above Second wonder in this event with the First wonder in the earlier event in 3:47:

She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

She never mentioned not being unchaste in 3:47, because it was a future event that she might have thought will come through a normal connection between a man and woman according to Allah Will, but in 19:20 the execution time she worried that she will be called unchaste, and certainly the Jews did call her as such

Then the Angel responded :

He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Then the Angel executed the good news:

So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Totally different events, there is no question about it, we didn't see a direct dialogue between Mary and the Angels in the first event because she was responding back to Allah not to them, but in the second event she was clearly dialoguing to one Angel in the shape of a man that scared her first

The enemy of the Quran are running crazy they resort to their common fallacy which is to compare apples with mangos, why not thinking who created the apples and mangos that they eat from the first place, I guess this is better for them than wasting the believers time in responding to some contradictions they created in their Barbie world of delusions

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Thanks very much for the detailed post.

The problem with this God-Damned bronze age book New Testament is that it is full of hodge podge and Quran only clarified.
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Ghalibkhastahaal » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:13 am

Spoiler! :
Marie wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Here it is, you stupid and confused hell bound christian, it was slam dunk #1 from my slam dunk show:
---------
Hello all

I just found out that I'm flying on the 4th of June, therefore I will have not much time to reply to all the crap and allegation by seeker, but I'm not going to mock around either, so I will find the ones that I slam dunked before and reply to it again, let me start with the first slam dunk:

truthseeker2 wrote:How many angels were talking to Mary?

In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.

Or was it in fact,

In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.


Hahahahahaha, that is the same crap by Dr Sina who posted it on FFI Arabic section, I replied to such stupidity ages ago:

Hello All

Dr Ali Sina claims on his web site (The Arabic section) the following:

ما هو عدد الملائكة التي أرسلت إلى مريم؟

(آل عمران) إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ 45

تشير إلى عدة ملائكة

(مريم) فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا 17 قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا 18 قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا 19 قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا 20 قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا 21

تشير إلى ملاك واحد


Here is the English translation to the verses:

3:45. When THE ANGELS SAID: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
3:47. She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
3:48. And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.


19:16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
19:17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.
19:18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
19:19. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
19:20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
19:21. He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Remember boys and girls, we want a clear cut contradiction certain one, please bear this in mind, my job is not to make you believe in what the Quran verses say, my job is only to show you that the alleged contradiction can NOT be a clear cut contradiction because it is doubtful and can't be admissible as an evidence by Dr Ali Sina, In fact he is embarrassing himself by claiming that this is a contradiction, let me prove to you and to the Dr, and if really Dr Ali Sina is looking for the truth as he claims for years then I expect him to be a man and concede that he got it totally wrong.

In the following verses we read the Quran is telling us that a group of Angels visited Mary:

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)
قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (47)

[The Quran ; 3:45-47]

-> In 3:45 we read that a group of Angels visited Mary: When THE ANGELS SAID, they actually were there to only tell her of a future event, this is clear from the Arabic word Yobashirik يُبَشِّرُكِ , This Bushra, The Good News is :: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). , THERE IS NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR MISSION WAS TO EXECUTE THIS GOOD NEWS FROM ALLAH, 3:46 and 3:47 are the rest of the supposed dialogue between the Angels and Mary and again we see no indication that they came to execute this good news, rather to tell her what is about to happen in the near future.

The important note that I found is this, it seems the same very Angels also visited Zachariah to give him another good news to his family, remember that Mary was living with Zachariah at this time, The visit to Zachariah by the Angels was mentioned just a few verses earlier:

37: So her Lord accepted her with a good acceptance and made her grow up a good growing, and gave her into the charge of Zakariya; whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. He said: O Marium! whence comes this to you? She said: It is from Allah. Surely Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure.

38: There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

39: Then the Angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

40: He said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and old age has already come upon me, and my wife is barren? He said: even thus does Allah what He pleases.

41: He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning.

42: And when the Angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

43: O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

44: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

45: When the Angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[The Quran ; 3:37-45]

فَتَقَبَّلَهَا رَبُّهَا بِقَبُولٍ حَسَنٍ وَأَنبَتَهَا نَبَاتًا حَسَنًا وَكَفَّلَهَا زَكَرِيَّا كُلَّمَا دَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا زَكَرِيَّا الْمِحْرَابَ وَجَدَ عِندَهَا رِزْقاً قَالَ يَا مَرْيَمُ أَنَّى لَكِ هَذَا قَالَتْ هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ إنَّ اللّهَ يَرْزُقُ مَن يَشَاء بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ (37)
هُنَالِكَ دَعَا زَكَرِيَّا رَبَّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاء (38)
فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)
قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىَ يَكُونُ لِي غُلاَمٌ وَقَدْ بَلَغَنِيَ الْكِبَرُ وَامْرَأَتِي عَاقِرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكَ اللّهُ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء (40)
قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّيَ آيَةً قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلاَّ تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ إِلاَّ رَمْزًا وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ كَثِيرًا وَسَبِّحْ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالإِبْكَارِ (41)
وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ (42)
يَا مَرْيَمُ اقْنُتِي لِرَبِّكِ وَاسْجُدِي وَارْكَعِي مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ (43)
ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنبَاء الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيكَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يُلْقُون أَقْلاَمَهُمْ أَيُّهُمْ يَكْفُلُ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يَخْتَصِمُونَ (44)
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)

-> Very clear that it is the same Angels who visited Zachariah at the same time, I agree it is not conclusive but there are two important points that must be considered :

1) She was living with Zachariah at that time whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37)
2) Zachariah and Mary received good news regarding their upcoming children

You have to also consider that there is nothing conclusive to suggest it was two different visits to both of them, I'm sure they met each in their own place but it sounds to me and according to the above verses that it was the same visit from the heaven to earth by the same Angels

Now the enemy of Islam suggest that the above verses conflict with the following verses in which we read ONLY ONE ANGEL VISITING HER TO EXECUTE THE GOOD NEWS:

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا (16)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا (17)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا (18)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا (19)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا (20)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا (21)
فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَانتَبَذَتْ بِهِ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا (22)

[The Quran ; 19:16-22]

Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48

Let me prove it to you:

In the earlier event we read: whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37), so she was in the sanctuary and Zachariah was allowed to enter regularly and check on her

In 19:16 we read:And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, i. logically e. she was in a chamber looking east where she withdrawn from her family, therefore Zachariah would have not been able to check on her as we read before, 19:17 confirms that : And had chosen seclusion from them

In addition to that, in 3:46, Mary and Zachariah didn't seem to be talking directly to the Angels, because their replies were O Allah.. as we read in 3:40 and 3:41 by Zachariah and in 3:47 by Mary when they responded to the good news said by the Angels, it seems there is a secret and divine way in how the Angels communicate with these righteous humans, I don't really know but it is clear that their replies were to Allah not to the Angels despite the Angels were the ones who said the good news to them.

But in 19:17 we see one Angel that morphed into a human being and Mary was talking directly to him, in fact she was horrified when she saw him, we didn't see this by Mary in the other earlier event in 3:45-48:

Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.

Then she was horrified and talked directly to him:

She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

Then he told her that his job was to execute the good news told to her before by the other Angels:

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

PLEASE NOTE THAT IN HERE WE READ: : I am only a messenger of thy Lord, but we didn't read that in the other event by the Angels neither to Zachariah nor to Mary, this clearly means it is a different event

She wondered again but this time she was serious because she mentioned that she has not been unchaste:

She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

compare the above Second wonder in this event with the First wonder in the earlier event in 3:47:

She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

She never mentioned not being unchaste in 3:47, because it was a future event that she might have thought will come through a normal connection between a man and woman according to Allah Will, but in 19:20 the execution time she worried that she will be called unchaste, and certainly the Jews did call her as such

Then the Angel responded :

He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Then the Angel executed the good news:

So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Totally different events, there is no question about it, we didn't see a direct dialogue between Mary and the Angels in the first event because she was responding back to Allah not to them, but in the second event she was clearly dialoguing to one Angel in the shape of a man that scared her first

The enemy of the Quran are running crazy they resort to their common fallacy which is to compare apples with mangos, why not thinking who created the apples and mangos that they eat from the first place, I guess this is better for them than wasting the believers time in responding to some contradictions they created in their Barbie world of delusions

Image # 1


The only thing this proves is that Muhammed had no problem plagiarizing stories from the Christians.

There was nothing to plagiarize from that God-Damned bronze age New Testament, which is full of hodge podge.

If Muhammad had plagiarized from that silly book, he would have repeated the stupidity that Jesus was God's son. Right? But he did not. So, wtf was plagiarized from that absurd book? :lotpot:
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby piscohot » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:13 am

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48


003.047
She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

019.020
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
019.021
He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."


different event? :lol: :lol: :lol: hell of a deja vu for Mary.

can't help it if muslims like lying to themselves.
Last edited by piscohot on Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Centaur » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:13 am

Bagshit is a moron he never answers to the point , or totally incapable of explaining things.He just dump loads of text from here and there and claims victory A total typical Muslim.Its better we ignore the idiot and the junk he post.
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby piscohot » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:21 am

Centaur wrote:Bagshit is a moron he never answers to the point , or totally incapable of explaining things.He just dump loads of text from here and there and claims victory A total typical Muslim.Its better we ignore the idiot and the junk he post.


must be the case of if you cannot convince them, confuse them. :*)
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Ariel » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:50 am

My dears….Please have mercy with moderators and other members. If you want or must quote a long post of another member, please use the spoiler.
I did it for you this time , but next time you have to do it yourself.

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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Ghalibkhastahaal » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:59 am

Ariel wrote:My dears….Please have mercy with moderators and other members. If you want or must quote a long post of another member, please use the spoiler.
I did it for you this time , but next time you have to do it yourself.

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Ariel.


Thanks very much for doing that. Normally, I do but just forgot this time.
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Nosubmission » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:30 pm

Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:There was nothing to plagiarize from that God-Damned bronze age New Testament, which is full of hodge podge.


Silly and ignorant troll, you do not even read what I write! Muhammad plagiarized not from the New Testament, but from the non-canonical Gospels of Infancy. I did not say that the copied from the canonical Gospels. Drop the idiocy!

Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:If Muhammad had plagiarized from that silly book, he would have repeated the stupidity that Jesus was God's son. Right? But he did not. So, wtf was plagiarized from that absurd book? :lotpot:


Silly and BLIND troll! Read AGAIN or for the FIRST time what I wrote:

It must be noted that Muhammad did not only copy from these apocryphal Gospels of Infancy, but also distorted the information given in them. This is why it is natural to see differences between the original versions of the stories and Muhammad's false copies. For example, it is written in the Gospel of James that the angel visiting Mary only said that the child to be born would be called JESUS, which is more accurate than the information given in Surah 3:45 since Mary did not call her son the Messiah or Son of Mary! Muhammad simply added those words while distorting the apocryphal text. As he repeatedly called Jesus “the Son of Mary” in most of the chapters and mistakenly thought that the title Christ (al-Masih) was Jesus' second name, he rushed to attach them to the name Jesus even in the account of the angelic annunciation. This proves that Muhammad was not only a reckless borrower, but also a blind one that made mistakes due to his strategy of perversion.

Muhammad did not only borrow ideas and narratives from the non-canonical Gospels of Infancy, but ALSO distorted those texts in order to bring them in line with his new ideology named Islam and thus adapt them to his Qur'an. :prop:
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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby sum » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:40 pm

Hello Ghalibkhastahaal

Your quote -
If Muhammad had plagiarized from that silly book, he would have repeated the stupidity that Jesus was God's son. Right? But he did not.

It is blindingly obvious why Muhammad did not that repeat that Jesus was the Son of God. Muhammad wanted to be "top prophet" and there was no way that he could compete with someone who was believed to be the Son of God.

It would have been political and religious suicide for Muhammad to say that Jesus was the Son of God.

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Re: Surah 19:19,21 vs. Surah 3:45

Postby Marie » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:07 pm

Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:
Spoiler! :
AhmedBahgat wrote:Here it is, you stupid and confused hell bound christian, it was slam dunk #1 from my slam dunk show:
---------
Hello all

I just found out that I'm flying on the 4th of June, therefore I will have not much time to reply to all the crap and allegation by seeker, but I'm not going to mock around either, so I will find the ones that I slam dunked before and reply to it again, let me start with the first slam dunk:

truthseeker2 wrote:How many angels were talking to Mary?

In Sura 3:42, 45 SEVERAL angels appear to Mary in the annunciation of the birth of Jesus.

Or was it in fact,

In Sura 19:17-21 only ONE angel appears to the virgin Mary.


Hahahahahaha, that is the same crap by Dr Sina who posted it on FFI Arabic section, I replied to such stupidity ages ago:

Hello All

Dr Ali Sina claims on his web site (The Arabic section) the following:

ما هو عدد الملائكة التي أرسلت إلى مريم؟

(آل عمران) إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ 45

تشير إلى عدة ملائكة

(مريم) فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا 17 قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا 18 قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا 19 قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا 20 قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا 21

تشير إلى ملاك واحد


Here is the English translation to the verses:

3:45. When THE ANGELS SAID: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).
3:47. She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
3:48. And He will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat and the Injeel.


19:16. And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East,
19:17. And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.
19:18. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.
19:19. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
19:20. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?
19:21. He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Remember boys and girls, we want a clear cut contradiction certain one, please bear this in mind, my job is not to make you believe in what the Quran verses say, my job is only to show you that the alleged contradiction can NOT be a clear cut contradiction because it is doubtful and can't be admissible as an evidence by Dr Ali Sina, In fact he is embarrassing himself by claiming that this is a contradiction, let me prove to you and to the Dr, and if really Dr Ali Sina is looking for the truth as he claims for years then I expect him to be a man and concede that he got it totally wrong.

In the following verses we read the Quran is telling us that a group of Angels visited Mary:

إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)
قَالَتْ رَبِّ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكِ اللّهُ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ (47)

[The Quran ; 3:45-47]

-> In 3:45 we read that a group of Angels visited Mary: When THE ANGELS SAID, they actually were there to only tell her of a future event, this is clear from the Arabic word Yobashirik يُبَشِّرُكِ , This Bushra, The Good News is :: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah). , THERE IS NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR MISSION WAS TO EXECUTE THIS GOOD NEWS FROM ALLAH, 3:46 and 3:47 are the rest of the supposed dialogue between the Angels and Mary and again we see no indication that they came to execute this good news, rather to tell her what is about to happen in the near future.

The important note that I found is this, it seems the same very Angels also visited Zachariah to give him another good news to his family, remember that Mary was living with Zachariah at this time, The visit to Zachariah by the Angels was mentioned just a few verses earlier:

37: So her Lord accepted her with a good acceptance and made her grow up a good growing, and gave her into the charge of Zakariya; whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. He said: O Marium! whence comes this to you? She said: It is from Allah. Surely Allah gives to whom He pleases without measure.

38: There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

39: Then the Angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

40: He said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and old age has already come upon me, and my wife is barren? He said: even thus does Allah what He pleases.

41: He said: My Lord! appoint a sign for me. Said He: Your sign is that you should not speak to men for three days except by signs; and remember your Lord much and glorify Him in the evening and the morning.

42: And when the Angels said: O Marium! surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of of the world.

43: O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow.

44: This is of the announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you; and you were not with them when they cast their pens (to decide) which of them should have Marium in his charge, and you were not with them when they contended one with another.

45: When the Angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

[The Quran ; 3:37-45]

فَتَقَبَّلَهَا رَبُّهَا بِقَبُولٍ حَسَنٍ وَأَنبَتَهَا نَبَاتًا حَسَنًا وَكَفَّلَهَا زَكَرِيَّا كُلَّمَا دَخَلَ عَلَيْهَا زَكَرِيَّا الْمِحْرَابَ وَجَدَ عِندَهَا رِزْقاً قَالَ يَا مَرْيَمُ أَنَّى لَكِ هَذَا قَالَتْ هُوَ مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ إنَّ اللّهَ يَرْزُقُ مَن يَشَاء بِغَيْرِ حِسَابٍ (37)
هُنَالِكَ دَعَا زَكَرِيَّا رَبَّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاء (38)
فَنَادَتْهُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ وَهُوَ قَائِمٌ يُصَلِّي فِي الْمِحْرَابِ أَنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكَ بِيَحْيَى مُصَدِّقًا بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَسَيِّدًا وَحَصُورًا وَنَبِيًّا مِّنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (39)
قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىَ يَكُونُ لِي غُلاَمٌ وَقَدْ بَلَغَنِيَ الْكِبَرُ وَامْرَأَتِي عَاقِرٌ قَالَ كَذَلِكَ اللّهُ يَفْعَلُ مَا يَشَاء (40)
قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّيَ آيَةً قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلاَّ تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلاَثَةَ أَيَّامٍ إِلاَّ رَمْزًا وَاذْكُر رَّبَّكَ كَثِيرًا وَسَبِّحْ بِالْعَشِيِّ وَالإِبْكَارِ (41)
وَإِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلاَئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَاكِ وَطَهَّرَكِ وَاصْطَفَاكِ عَلَى نِسَاء الْعَالَمِينَ (42)
يَا مَرْيَمُ اقْنُتِي لِرَبِّكِ وَاسْجُدِي وَارْكَعِي مَعَ الرَّاكِعِينَ (43)
ذَلِكَ مِنْ أَنبَاء الْغَيْبِ نُوحِيهِ إِلَيكَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يُلْقُون أَقْلاَمَهُمْ أَيُّهُمْ يَكْفُلُ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا كُنتَ لَدَيْهِمْ إِذْ يَخْتَصِمُونَ (44)
إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (45)

-> Very clear that it is the same Angels who visited Zachariah at the same time, I agree it is not conclusive but there are two important points that must be considered :

1) She was living with Zachariah at that time whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37)
2) Zachariah and Mary received good news regarding their upcoming children

You have to also consider that there is nothing conclusive to suggest it was two different visits to both of them, I'm sure they met each in their own place but it sounds to me and according to the above verses that it was the same visit from the heaven to earth by the same Angels

Now the enemy of Islam suggest that the above verses conflict with the following verses in which we read ONLY ONE ANGEL VISITING HER TO EXECUTE THE GOOD NEWS:

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا (16)
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا (17)
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا (18)
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا (19)
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا (20)
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا (21)
فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَانتَبَذَتْ بِهِ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا (22)

[The Quran ; 19:16-22]

Well, what can I say, the verses above clearly talks about different event than the one in 3:37-48, this event in 19:16-21 is the future event that was told in 3:37-48

Let me prove it to you:

In the earlier event we read: whenever Zakariya entered the sanctuary to (see) her, he found with her food. (3:37), so she was in the sanctuary and Zachariah was allowed to enter regularly and check on her

In 19:16 we read:And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, i. logically e. she was in a chamber looking east where she withdrawn from her family, therefore Zachariah would have not been able to check on her as we read before, 19:17 confirms that : And had chosen seclusion from them

In addition to that, in 3:46, Mary and Zachariah didn't seem to be talking directly to the Angels, because their replies were O Allah.. as we read in 3:40 and 3:41 by Zachariah and in 3:47 by Mary when they responded to the good news said by the Angels, it seems there is a secret and divine way in how the Angels communicate with these righteous humans, I don't really know but it is clear that their replies were to Allah not to the Angels despite the Angels were the ones who said the good news to them.

But in 19:17 we see one Angel that morphed into a human being and Mary was talking directly to him, in fact she was horrified when she saw him, we didn't see this by Mary in the other earlier event in 3:45-48:

Then We sent unto her OUR SPIRIT and it assumed for her the likeness of A PERFECT MAN.

Then she was horrified and talked directly to him:

She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art Allah-fearing.

Then he told her that his job was to execute the good news told to her before by the other Angels:

He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

PLEASE NOTE THAT IN HERE WE READ: : I am only a messenger of thy Lord, but we didn't read that in the other event by the Angels neither to Zachariah nor to Mary, this clearly means it is a different event

She wondered again but this time she was serious because she mentioned that she has not been unchaste:

She said: How can I have a son when no mortal hath touched me, neither have I been unchaste?

compare the above Second wonder in this event with the First wonder in the earlier event in 3:47:

She said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.

She never mentioned not being unchaste in 3:47, because it was a future event that she might have thought will come through a normal connection between a man and woman according to Allah Will, but in 19:20 the execution time she worried that she will be called unchaste, and certainly the Jews did call her as such

Then the Angel responded :

He said: So (it will be). Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And (it will be) that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.

Then the Angel executed the good news:

So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place.

Totally different events, there is no question about it, we didn't see a direct dialogue between Mary and the Angels in the first event because she was responding back to Allah not to them, but in the second event she was clearly dialoguing to one Angel in the shape of a man that scared her first

The enemy of the Quran are running crazy they resort to their common fallacy which is to compare apples with mangos, why not thinking who created the apples and mangos that they eat from the first place, I guess this is better for them than wasting the believers time in responding to some contradictions they created in their Barbie world of delusions

Image # 1

Thanks very much for the detailed post.

The problem with this God-Damned bronze age book New Testament is that it is full of hodge podge and Quran only clarified.


Prove to us the Quran is clear and the Bible is nothing but hodge podge.
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