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Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:03 am
by The Cat
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:It is a pleasure to discuss with you, when you are not in the spinning mode.
Sorry but the spinning mode was all yours, for you never disproved any of my points...

Spinning #1: Nobody was the father of Jesus!
First you wrote that: ''Nobody was the father of Jesus'', which divinize him already.
For he was created from the Ruh of God (Breath), His Ruhullah. No doubt about it.

I've underlined that the Koran use of 'walid' -indicating a sexual filiation- to say 'son'
was something even Christians would agree on, for Jesus was His Spirit incarnated.

Quoting John Gilchrist:
http://www.answering-islam.de/Gilchrist/Vol2/5c.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Surah 3.39 an angel announces to Zachariah that his son John (Yahya) will witness to a kalimatim-minallaah, "a Word from God", and in Surah 3.45 the angels, in announcing the conception of Jesus to Mary, speak of him as a kalimatim-minhu, "a Word from Him".... In Surah 4.171 Jesus is called God's Word, not just a Word from God as in the two passages we quoted from the third Surah. ''Christ is called 'His Word', that is, 'God's Word'. The Arabic shows that it means 'The Word of God', not merely 'a Word of God'. (Kalimatullaah, not kalimatimmin kalimaatullaah)....

The Qur'an says no more of Adam than that "he learnt from his Lord words of inspiration" (Surah 2.37), that is, the kalimaat were sent down mir-rabbihi, "from his Lord", but in the case of Jesus it is said that he himself is the kalimatullah, the "Word of God"....

In Surah 3.45 we read that Jesus was a kalimatim-minhu, "a Word from him". Now we read in Surah 4.171 that he was also a ruhun minhu, "a Spirit from him". On both occasions it is clearly stated that the source of the man who bears these titles is God himself. Jesus is his Word and his Spirit... Whereas David is called Khalifatullah ("Vicegerent of God") and Abraham Khalilullah ("Friend of God") as we have already seen, so now we find that the express title for Jesus in Islam is Ruhullah ("Spirit of God").
Then I wrote, answering your assertion that ''Nobody was the father of Jesus'':
Agreed! But then it means that... you're plainly admitting Isa's Koranic divinity! Thanks...
Or is it that Allah being this 'nobody', Muslims are but worshiping a 'no one' as The One?


You've answered:
---How am I am admitting the divinity, when the man had zero divinity?

sum: viewtopic.php?p=135401#p135401" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your logic has gone and that is why you are running away from this thread. Your standing has reached a new low.

Spinning #2: Gabriel is the rasoolin Kareem
You admitted that, in 66.12, Gabriel plays no part. Then you came out saying that the Breath of God was given to an already made fetus or zygote of Jesus and I've pointed out that, then, Mary's body couldn't have been called chaste. As an angel who had to bow to Adam, without any will of his own, Gabriel is an automaton and as such cannot be honored. More so, in 81.19-20 the honored messenger is ''embued with Power, established in the sight of God, having authority to be obeyed.'' No angel can have such authority by its own, but... Isa (5.30/43.63).

So, about 3.59:
Now we can understand why the similitude with Adam in 3.59 only refers to Isa's human body.
The Koran states that Isa is the -abna Maryama- ie. belonging to the human race from Mary,
not only a flesh and blood prophet but a Revelation all by himself, sanctity incarnated...

Like Adam his body was created from nothing (dust) yet, unlike Adam, his Spirit is beyond time which is established in the first similitude:
The 'mathala' of Isa is being WITH Allah, while khamathala is Isa in the flesh created as Adam, perfected from the beginning as in 19.17:
We sent unto her Our Spirit (Ilayhā Rūĥanā) and it assumed for her the likeness (Fata-maththala) of a perfect man. Here again, NO Gabriel!

Still you wrote: ---Rasoolin Kareem has only been used for Gabriel, not for Jesus or others.
To which I've asked for Koranic proofs time and time again and you couldn't provide any...

Thanks for admitting that Gabriel is never mentioned as the Rasoolin Kareem.

The only honored prophet mentioned in the Koran is Isa, 3.45. Honored being the most often translation for ''bi-kalimatin''.

19.21: And that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained (timelessly).

From 3.45 we must assume that the Rasoolin Kareem mentioned in 69.40 & 81.19 and intended in 86.13 as Jesus-Christ:

69.40: Certainly, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger
81.19: That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger
86.13: Most surely it is a decisive word...

Spinning #3
You wrote: I never tell a lie (which is lying upon a lie, about the word sulb):

Statement A: I have not read the entire discussion on that link but I have to agree with AhmedBahagt. He is right.
Statement B: I have not read AB's posts on this subject, so I would not comment.

A. You have read enough of it to make your mind;
B. You haven't read about it so you can't comment

You've lied even on the fact that you've lied! How's that!

Spinning #4
You wrote:
How can you apply Hebrew roots to Aramaic and Arabic words? The name Jesus is a corruption. Yeshua is Aramaic. Yashua or Joshua is Hebrew.... please note that the word Will carries no significance (in 18.24).... If you write Allah wills and "wills" is Jesus, the verb according to you, then it would mean Allah Jesuses (verb form).... So, Yeshua, a name of Aramaic is not Yashaa, a verb of arabic.

To which I've answered:
First of all you'd deserved to be stone to death for daring to say that Allah's will (want or wish) carries no significance:
the whole Koran is Allah's Will, want or wish! How can you be a Muslim and state something like that!

You're mixing everything up to fit your assertion, including the English Jesus. Pitiful attempt. Words change from one language to another.
In English, the root Yeshua is found in the common YES. ... Yes, it's a wonder why a proper name like Yeshua so became WILL in the Koran.
In 18.24; 9.27; 24.46; 30.48 and 42.19 it's always used as a verb, which instantly refer us to John 1.1: ''And the Word was God...''
And quoting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeshua, spelled יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšūă‘) or ישוע in Hebrew, was a common name among Jews of the Second Temple Period, and is thought by scholars and religious groups to be the Hebrew or Aramaic name for Jesus. An argument in favor of the Hebrew reduced form ישוע Yeshua, as opposed to Yehoshua, is the Old Syriac Bible (c. 200 AD) and the Peshitta preserve this same spelling but using the equivalent Aramaic letters ܝܫܘܥ. Yeshu.
Still again, the shared etymology is obvious: Yeshua (YS-h, Hebrew for Jesus) became Allah's Will (YS-h, Yasha'a: Arabic for will).
In the Koranic context, we're not dealing with Yeshua as a named person, a 'son', but as the Spirit and Word of Allah, His Ruhullah.

Or, as I've answered to AB about his 'Yasoo':
The root stems from different influences, silly you. The Koranic Yashaa (YS-h) coming right from the Hebrew Yeshua (YS-h).
When will you stop confusing modern Arabic with Classical? Greek with Hebrew? The Greek Gospels with the Koran's Arabic?


The Koran defines Yeshua as Allah's Yasha'a (ie. John's Logos), like it or not.

19.21: And that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained (timelessly).
Yasha'a/Isa was much more than just another prophet/messenger like Muhammad. He's a timeless Revelation and Mercy to mankind!

Spinning #5:
You wrote:
You have not tried to show us that an ISA can be derived out of this. With Mashallah, you would get MSA. How can MSA be Jesus?

I've answered:
It's not Jesus I was talking about here, silly, it's Masih (Messiah), Mā šāʾ Allāh (ما شاء الله), Masha Allah: MS-h: "God has willed it".

The name ISA being itself a title right from the Hindu Isa Upanishads, and... Yasha'a from Yeshua!
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:Have a good day.
You too, yet be careful with all this spinning around...

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:49 am
by AhmedBahgat
Ahmed chose to ask inmate pussy cat a question:

Tell me inmate pussy, why you see blowing into Mary from the Ruh of Allah is making Jesus special?

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:14 pm
by Ghalibkhastahaal
Spoiler! :
The Cat wrote:
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:It is a pleasure to discuss with you, when you are not in the spinning mode.
Sorry but the spinning mode was all yours, for you never disproved any of my points...

Spinning #1: Nobody was the father of Jesus!
First you wrote that: ''Nobody was the father of Jesus'', which divinize him already.
For he was created from the Ruh of God (Breath), His Ruhullah. No doubt about it.

I've underlined that the Koran use of 'walid' -indicating a sexual filiation- to say 'son'
was something even Christians would agree on, for Jesus was His Spirit incarnated.

Quoting John Gilchrist:
http://www.answering-islam.de/Gilchrist/Vol2/5c.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Surah 3.39 an angel announces to Zachariah that his son John (Yahya) will witness to a kalimatim-minallaah, "a Word from God", and in Surah 3.45 the angels, in announcing the conception of Jesus to Mary, speak of him as a kalimatim-minhu, "a Word from Him".... In Surah 4.171 Jesus is called God's Word, not just a Word from God as in the two passages we quoted from the third Surah. ''Christ is called 'His Word', that is, 'God's Word'. The Arabic shows that it means 'The Word of God', not merely 'a Word of God'. (Kalimatullaah, not kalimatimmin kalimaatullaah)....

The Qur'an says no more of Adam than that "he learnt from his Lord words of inspiration" (Surah 2.37), that is, the kalimaat were sent down mir-rabbihi, "from his Lord", but in the case of Jesus it is said that he himself is the kalimatullah, the "Word of God"....

In Surah 3.45 we read that Jesus was a kalimatim-minhu, "a Word from him". Now we read in Surah 4.171 that he was also a ruhun minhu, "a Spirit from him". On both occasions it is clearly stated that the source of the man who bears these titles is God himself. Jesus is his Word and his Spirit... Whereas David is called Khalifatullah ("Vicegerent of God") and Abraham Khalilullah ("Friend of God") as we have already seen, so now we find that the express title for Jesus in Islam is Ruhullah ("Spirit of God").
Then I wrote, answering your assertion that ''Nobody was the father of Jesus'':
Agreed! But then it means that... you're plainly admitting Isa's Koranic divinity! Thanks...
Or is it that Allah being this 'nobody', Muslims are but worshiping a 'no one' as The One?


You've answered:
---How am I am admitting the divinity, when the man had zero divinity?

sum: viewtopic.php?p=135401#p135401" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Your logic has gone and that is why you are running away from this thread. Your standing has reached a new low.

Spinning #2: Gabriel is the rasoolin Kareem
You admitted that, in 66.12, Gabriel plays no part. Then you came out saying that the Breath of God was given to an already made fetus or zygote of Jesus and I've pointed out that, then, Mary's body couldn't have been called chaste. As an angel who had to bow to Adam, without any will of his own, Gabriel is an automaton and as such cannot be honored. More so, in 81.19-20 the honored messenger is ''embued with Power, established in the sight of God, having authority to be obeyed.'' No angel can have such authority by its own, but... Isa (5.30/43.63).

So, about 3.59:
Now we can understand why the similitude with Adam in 3.59 only refers to Isa's human body.
The Koran states that Isa is the -abna Maryama- ie. belonging to the human race from Mary,
not only a flesh and blood prophet but a Revelation all by himself, sanctity incarnated...

Like Adam his body was created from nothing (dust) yet, unlike Adam, his Spirit is beyond time which is established in the first similitude:
The 'mathala' of Isa is being WITH Allah, while khamathala is Isa in the flesh created as Adam, perfected from the beginning as in 19.17:
We sent unto her Our Spirit (Ilayhā Rūĥanā) and it assumed for her the likeness (Fata-maththala) of a perfect man. Here again, NO Gabriel!

Still you wrote: ---Rasoolin Kareem has only been used for Gabriel, not for Jesus or others.
To which I've asked for Koranic proofs time and time again and you couldn't provide any...

Thanks for admitting that Gabriel is never mentioned as the Rasoolin Kareem.

The only honored prophet mentioned in the Koran is Isa, 3.45. Honored being the most often translation for ''bi-kalimatin''.

19.21: And that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained (timelessly).

From 3.45 we must assume that the Rasoolin Kareem mentioned in 69.40 & 81.19 and intended in 86.13 as Jesus-Christ:

69.40: Certainly, it is the Word brought by an honored Messenger
81.19: That this is in truth the word of an honored messenger
86.13: Most surely it is a decisive word...

Spinning #3
You wrote: I never tell a lie (which is lying upon a lie, about the word sulb):

Statement A: I have not read the entire discussion on that link but I have to agree with AhmedBahagt. He is right.
Statement B: I have not read AB's posts on this subject, so I would not comment.

A. You have read enough of it to make your mind;
B. You haven't read about it so you can't comment

You've lied even on the fact that you've lied! How's that!

Spinning #4
You wrote:
How can you apply Hebrew roots to Aramaic and Arabic words? The name Jesus is a corruption. Yeshua is Aramaic. Yashua or Joshua is Hebrew.... please note that the word Will carries no significance (in 18.24).... If you write Allah wills and "wills" is Jesus, the verb according to you, then it would mean Allah Jesuses (verb form).... So, Yeshua, a name of Aramaic is not Yashaa, a verb of arabic.

To which I've answered:
First of all you'd deserved to be stone to death for daring to say that Allah's will (want or wish) carries no significance:
the whole Koran is Allah's Will, want or wish! How can you be a Muslim and state something like that!

You're mixing everything up to fit your assertion, including the English Jesus. Pitiful attempt. Words change from one language to another.
In English, the root Yeshua is found in the common YES. ... Yes, it's a wonder why a proper name like Yeshua so became WILL in the Koran.
In 18.24; 9.27; 24.46; 30.48 and 42.19 it's always used as a verb, which instantly refer us to John 1.1: ''And the Word was God...''
And quoting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeshua, spelled יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšūă‘) or ישוע in Hebrew, was a common name among Jews of the Second Temple Period, and is thought by scholars and religious groups to be the Hebrew or Aramaic name for Jesus. An argument in favor of the Hebrew reduced form ישוע Yeshua, as opposed to Yehoshua, is the Old Syriac Bible (c. 200 AD) and the Peshitta preserve this same spelling but using the equivalent Aramaic letters ܝܫܘܥ. Yeshu.
Still again, the shared etymology is obvious: Yeshua (YS-h, Hebrew for Jesus) became Allah's Will (YS-h, Yasha'a: Arabic for will).
In the Koranic context, we're not dealing with Yeshua as a named person, a 'son', but as the Spirit and Word of Allah, His Ruhullah.

Or, as I've answered to AB about his 'Yasoo':
The root stems from different influences, silly you. The Koranic Yashaa (YS-h) coming right from the Hebrew Yeshua (YS-h).
When will you stop confusing modern Arabic with Classical? Greek with Hebrew? The Greek Gospels with the Koran's Arabic?


The Koran defines Yeshua as Allah's Yasha'a (ie. John's Logos), like it or not.

19.21: And that We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained (timelessly).
Yasha'a/Isa was much more than just another prophet/messenger like Muhammad. He's a timeless Revelation and Mercy to mankind!

Spinning #5:
You wrote:
You have not tried to show us that an ISA can be derived out of this. With Mashallah, you would get MSA. How can MSA be Jesus?

I've answered:
It's not Jesus I was talking about here, silly, it's Masih (Messiah), Mā šāʾ Allāh (ما شاء الله), Masha Allah: MS-h: "God has willed it".

The name ISA being itself a title right from the Hindu Isa Upanishads, and... Yasha'a from Yeshua!
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:Have a good day.
You too, yet be careful with all this spinning around...
I thought you would stop spinning but you continue to spin. This will result in knots. :*)

When I wrote "Nobody was the father of Jesus", it was a clear declaration that Jesus did not have a father. He was no man's son and he was only his mother's son. That is why Quran addresses him as Ibn-e-Maryam.

If I wrote "Nobody killed the man", would you take it to mean that a person by the name Mr. Nobody, killed him? :lol: Was God known as Nobody? Is that God's name? Zero divinity means that man was not divine at all.

We have already discussed the rest. Quran projects Jesus simply as a man, the son of Mary.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:24 pm
by Ghalibkhastahaal
Skenderbeg wrote: Then Where are the books Allah gave moses and Jesus please tell me ? so I could read those whole books since the Quran says no one could change or corrupt Allah's word, Those books must be around in full for all of us to read or else allah is a liar..he sent his propets and theorfore must be able to protect their words and books fully uncorrupted. Where can I read everything Jesus taught ? since Allah sent him as one of his greatest prophet calling him, prophet, Messiah, his word, spirit. born holy to a virgin who is sinless pure son and a sign to all nations, suerly someone so great Allah must have protected his book fully right Muslims ? since you don't believe in the NT then where is the book of Jesus for us to read ? the whole book of Jesus and don't play little games by saying a few words in the bible are true and the rest is corrupted because then that would mean Allah is a liar weak and failed to protect his books from being changed and corrupted. you Muslims cannot have it both ways.....either Allah protects all his books or not, in which case he is a fake god.
The revelations given to Moses and Jesus, can still be found in the stone age Bible and the bronze age New Testament. But the true content is very little. For example, only the Beatitudes and the Parables can be considered as revelations made by God to Jesus and the rest is all man-made stuff. The Liars were men who penned the New Testament and those who forged the Tanakh and it's wholesale copy, the Old Testament.

The rest of your post does not require a response.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:40 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:
Skenderbeg wrote: Then Where are the books Allah gave moses and Jesus please tell me ? so I could read those whole books since the Quran says no one could change or corrupt Allah's word, Those books must be around in full for all of us to read or else allah is a liar..he sent his propets and theorfore must be able to protect their words and books fully uncorrupted. Where can I read everything Jesus taught ? since Allah sent him as one of his greatest prophet calling him, prophet, Messiah, his word, spirit. born holy to a virgin who is sinless pure son and a sign to all nations, suerly someone so great Allah must have protected his book fully right Muslims ? since you don't believe in the NT then where is the book of Jesus for us to read ? the whole book of Jesus and don't play little games by saying a few words in the bible are true and the rest is corrupted because then that would mean Allah is a liar weak and failed to protect his books from being changed and corrupted. you Muslims cannot have it both ways.....either Allah protects all his books or not, in which case he is a fake god.
The revelations given to Moses and Jesus, can still be found in the stone age Bible and the bronze age New Testament. But the true content is very little. For example, only the Beatitudes and the Parables can be considered as revelations made by God to Jesus and the rest is all man-made stuff. The Liars were men who penned the New Testament and those who forged the Tanakh and it's wholesale copy, the Old Testament.

The rest of your post does not require a response.
So why didn't Allah make the scriptures before the Quran non corruptible like he did with the Quran?

Anyway, what you don't understand is that the Gospels, for example, were never supposed to be the letter for letter dictation of God, and this is why nobody ever put together a "Gospel of Jesus", and instead each Gospel purposefully referenced an Apostle's name. Jesus never said anything about any book being brought down or even written. He did things, and knew they would be written about and he left it to others to do that. This was because it was written as an author recounting the story of Jesus and the most important parts of what happened. This is why it is written in third person narrative form where it says "and then Jesus said, Jesus did....." rather "I said or we said" like it is in the Quran where it's supposed to be Allah speaking directly rather than an author narrating. The entire Quran is in first person format, with the exception of 63:4 where Muhammad accidentally forgot that it was supposed to be Allah speaking, not him. :lol:

So where are the remnants of a prior book written in first person format?? The truth is, there were original, uncorrupted scriptures and what we got is pretty much what they are. They are stories about God's interactions with man, and few, if any, are anything even remotely like the Quran. If one wants to make the case that some books might not belong in the Bible, that case could be made, but we don't see any major corruptions of the books themselves at all and at most see translation difficulties or questions. The Dead Sea Scrolls pretty much matched what we knew of before they were found and offered no real surprises.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:37 pm
by Ghalibkhastahaal
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote: So why didn't Allah make the scriptures before the Quran non corruptible like he did with the Quran?
Because Allah had thought that the stone age to bronze age men would keep the words faithfully, but Allah saw them writing on their own and saying, "This is from Allah!", where as those words were not at all from Allah. Those wicked men kept on adding tonnes of material in the stone age and the bronze age Bibles.

I had told Skenderbeg that the true teachings of Moses and Jesus can still be found in the two books but the true content is little.
For example, no one could change the Laws revealed to Moses and no one could change the Beatitudes and the Parables, revealed to Jesus.

After seeing the corruption and the forgeries carried out in the Bibles, Allah saw how Jesus was turned into God, based on books written by men. It was time to put a stop to the butchering of Scripture. So, Allah decided it was time to guard and protect Quran.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Anyway, what you don't understand is that the Gospels, for example, were never supposed to be the letter for letter dictation of God, and this is why nobody ever put together a "Gospel of Jesus", and instead each Gospel purposefully referenced an Apostle's name. Jesus never said anything about any book being brought down or even written. He did things, and knew they would be written about and he left it to others to do that. This was because it was written as an author recounting the story of Jesus and the most important parts of what happened.
Good point and I agree that the gospels were not meant to be scripture. By the way, Mark and Luke were not Jesus' disciples at all. You are right in saying "nobody ever put together a "Gospel of Jesus"", because Jesus did not bring anything new and also he did not reveal any Scripture.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:This is why it is written in third person narrative form where it says "and then Jesus said, Jesus did....." rather "I said or we said" like it is in the Quran where it's supposed to be Allah speaking directly rather than an author narrating. The entire Quran is in first person format, with the exception of 63:4 where Muhammad accidentally forgot that it was supposed to be Allah speaking, not him. :lol:
What is your point, regarding 63:4? Can you explain yourself, please?
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So where are the remnants of a prior book written in first person format??
Those can be found within the texts written by the prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah and others,
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The truth is, there were original, uncorrupted scriptures and what we got is pretty much what they are.
Indeed! But those were the scrolls written only by the prophets themselves or their personal scribes.
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote: They are stories about God's interactions with man, and few, if any, are anything even remotely like the Quran. If one wants to make the case that some books might not belong in the Bible, that case could be made, but we don't see any major corruptions of the books themselves at all and at most see translation difficulties or questions. The Dead Sea Scrolls pretty much matched what we knew of before they were found and offered no real surprises.
Yes, I appreciate translation difficulties but the DSS has nothing to do with the New Testament and it does not contain the entire scrolls of the Jewish Tanakh.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:16 pm
by bobs1244
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote: So why didn't Allah make the scriptures before the Quran non corruptible like he did with the Quran?
Because Allah had thought that the stone age to bronze age men would keep the words faithfully, but Allah saw them writing on their own and saying, "This is from Allah!", where as those words were not at all from Allah.
Dear Ghalib, I can only hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. Are you saying Allah is capable of misjudgement? I thought he's your all-powerful, all-knowing God! How does he make a miscalculation much like how a common man does? You say Allah is our creator. And yet the creator knows so little about his own creation that he doesn't even know which is the good guy and which is the bad guy? God, that makes no sense whatsoever!!

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 7:06 pm
by Nosubmission
Yes, this ignorant Muslim troll means that Allah is not all-knowing and that he needs the trial-and-error method to learn and take action. :roflmao:

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:31 pm
by AhmedBahgat
For the confused inmate, again:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Ahmed chose to ask inmate pussy cat a question:

Tell me inmate pussy, why you see blowing into Mary from the Ruh of Allah is making Jesus special?

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:45 pm
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:Why you see blowing into Mary from the Ruh of Allah is making Jesus special?
Why do you ascribe to it imperfections? Why can't you see that what's created from the Breath of God is perfect? In the case of Jesus he is especially blessed as the Masih (Masha'Allah), Isa (a title indicating dominion) and as Allah's Spirit, Word (4.151) and Will (Yasha'u = Yeshua).

And Ruh only refers to Isa (a title) born of mankind in the likeness of Adam yet, contrary to Adam, born immaculate:
19.17: We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

19.21: That We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and that's a thing ordained (timelessly).

19.34: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: A statement of the Truth concerning which they doubt.

3.49: Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird,
by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave.


3.50: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.
I come unto you with a sign (Bi'āyatin) from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.


3.52: The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we are Muslims (Muslimūna).

3.55: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee
of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection....


So being the Ruhullah is very special! In 3.49 Isa can even give life through his own breath, cure through miracles and raise the dead !!!

Isn't it 'special' for an otherwise 'ordinary' messenger?

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:53 pm
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Why you see blowing into Mary from the Ruh of Allah is making Jesus special?
Why do you ascribe to it imperfections? Why can't you see that what's created from the Breath of God is perfect? In the case of Jesus he is especially blessed as the Masih (Masha'Allah), Isa (a title indicating dominion) and as Allah's Spirit, Word (4.151) and Will (Yasha'u = Yeshua).

And Ruh only refers to Isa (a title) born of mankind in the likeness of Adam yet, contrary to Adam, born immaculate:
19.17: We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

19.21: That We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and that's a thing ordained (timelessly).

19.34: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: A statement of the Truth concerning which they doubt.

3.49: Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird,
by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave.


3.50: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.
I come unto you with a sign (Bi'āyatin) from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.


3.52: The disciples said: We will be Allah´s helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we are Muslims (Muslimūna).

3.55: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee
of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection....


So being the Ruhullah is very special! In 3.49 Isa can even give life through his own breath, cure through miracles and raise the dead !!!

Isn't it 'special' for an otherwise 'ordinary' messenger?
Let me clarify that:

So you say he was special because Allah blew into him or into Mary or into her vagina from His Ruh, or he was special because he was a messenger? or both?

Try to give me a clear answer, inmate

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:22 pm
by The Cat
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:When I wrote "Nobody was the father of Jesus", it was a clear declaration that Jesus did not have a father. He was no man's son and he was only his mother's son. That is why Quran addresses him as Ibn-e-Maryam.
Thanks for admitting that Isa (a title) is fatherless as God... being His Will (Yasha'a), His Word (Kalimatullah) and His Spirit (Rūĥun Minhu).
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:If I wrote "Nobody killed the man", would you take it to mean that a person by the name Mr. Nobody, killed him? Was God known as Nobody? Is that God's name? Zero divinity means that man was not divine at all.... Quran projects Jesus simply as a man, the son of Mary.
The Koran rejects that Isa could be a biological son (-walid-) of God. But it still gives his human entity to be perfect, immaculate...

And yes, God is nobody, that is -not a body- but a transcient, unnamable entity. Thus, what 3.45 is telling us is that Isa, as a person,
was created in the similitude of Adam, to whom ALL angels like Gabriel had to bow. Then again, as a spirit, he is ONE WITH Allah
(Inna Mathala Īsá Inda Allāhi), or His will (Yasha'a). Yeshua is the one who can say: BE, so it is. As such and as per 2.116-117,
Isa is the true originator of the heaven and of the earth, for he's (also) the verb: BE, if only through 3.49!

In 3.45 the first similitude attest on what Isa IS (inda Allah), differentiated from his human birth, in the similitude of Adam, yet faultless!

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah,_His_Word,_and_%27Isa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Ibn Kathir and other Muslims have attempted to do is blur the meanings of 'Isa being a word from Allah and 'Isa being born from a virgin in the same manner that Adam was created. Who 'Isa is and how he was born are two very separate things. For example, in the "Book of Miscellany" from the Riyad-us-Saliheen we read: Prophet `Isa (Jesus) has been referred in the Qur'an as "Kalimatullah" (the Word of Allah) (4:171). What these words really mean is that he was born in an unusual manner, without being fathered by anyone, only on the express fiat of Allah.

The Quran states 'Isa is a spirit and word FROM Allah, not just "of" like a title of honor.

Again, as the Word from Allah, Isa is the spirit of truth lending the Koran to mankind. Like in the Nestorian christology, Isa is an
emanation from Allah (His prosopon) much like sunrays and heat come out from the sun. Nestorius precepts became troublesome
when translated 'substance' or 'consubstantiality' in Latin, for it's indeed a different subtle meaning. Anyhow, the prosopon concept
got into the Koran, but more specifically of an Hindu avatar: Isa is an avatar (bodily emanation) of Allah.

The more I study the Koran, the more I find utter links with Hinduism... like this concept of avatar (or prosopon)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_%28Hinduism%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Hinduism, Avatar or Avatāra (Devanagari अवतार, Sanskrit for "descent" [viz., from heaven to earth]) refers to a deliberate descent of a deity (an incarnation of a deva (god) from heaven to earth, or a descent of the Supreme Being (i.e., Vishnu for Vaishnavites) and is mostly translated into English as "incarnation", but more accurately as "appearance" or "manifestation".
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthrea ... sopon-mean" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It then becomes easy to understand that this appearance is what 4.157 talks about:
4.157: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him,
but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; ... they slew him not for certain.


Isa wasn't replaced on the cross by a substitution! His bodily appearance went away, while his real-self went to God where it belongs.

4.158-159: But Allah took him up unto Himself.... and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.

Then we can understand what 4.171 really talks about...
4.171: The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was (only) a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed
unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease!


Al-Masīĥu `Īsá Abnu Maryama Rasūlu Allāhi Wa Kalimatuhu 'Alqāhā 'Ilá Maryama
Wa Rūĥun Minhu Fa'āminū Billāhi Wa Rusulihi Wa Lā Taqūlū Thalāthatun.

Conceptual transposition:
Do not say 'three' (as in the Latin 'substancia') for the Messiah, born Isa son (abnu) of Mary, was an emissary of Allah: His Logos (Kalimatuhu),
conveyed into the flesh through Mary, yet His spirit (Ruhun Minhu). So believe in Allah and His messengers (since the Word did inspire them).

In short: Jesus is the incarnated message of Allah, His Mercy as a Revelation, all by himself, unto mankind (19.21).
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:We have already discussed the rest.
Where you've been proven faulty on all grounds, let alone a liar of all trades!

Most unfortunately...

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:39 pm
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:
The Cat wrote:Why do you ascribe to it imperfections? Why can't you see that what's created from the Breath of God is perfect? In the case of Jesus he is especially blessed as the Masih (Masha'Allah), Isa (a title indicating dominion) and as Allah's Spirit, Word (4.151) and Will (Yasha'u = Yeshua).

And Ruh only refers to Isa (a title) born of mankind in the likeness of Adam yet, contrary to Adam, born immaculate:
19.17: We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man.

19.21: That We may make of him a revelation for mankind and a mercy from Us, and that's a thing ordained (timelessly).

19.34: Such was Jesus, son of Mary: A statement of the Truth concerning which they doubt.

3.49: Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird,
by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave.


3.50: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you.
I come unto you with a sign (Bi'āyatin) from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.


3.52: The disciples said: We will be Allah´s helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we are Muslims (Muslimūna).

3.55: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee
of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection....


So being the Ruhullah is very special! In 3.49 Isa can even give life through his own breath, cure through miracles and raise the dead !!!

Isn't it 'special' for an otherwise 'ordinary' messenger?
So you say he was special because Allah blew into him or into Mary or into her vagina from His Ruh, or he was special because he was a messenger? or both? Try to give me a clear answer, inmate
Get out of your self-imprisonment, -read what I've written- instead of your own sweat-mind.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:43 pm
by AhmedBahgat
You stupid dickhead of a bum inmate, what you wrote is nothing but another session of your spin. So I am asking your pinspinhead.

Was Jesus special in your blind eyes because Allah blew into him from His Ruh?

Answer yes/no. You stupid dumb fuk on a deluded inmate

Also ignorant punk, Masih has a root of Ma Sa Ha. It does not have the letter Sheen, you stupid imbecile

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:50 pm
by AhmedBahgat
Also you stupid dumb cat

Your translation is rejected, it is all wrong your stupid; it seems Apple Pie injected it into your pinhead while he was molesting you. Try to bring me some credible translation.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:01 am
by AhmedBahgat
For the stupid, deluded and molested cat:

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَآلُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا وَلِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ (17)
They have certainly disbelieved who say: Allah is Christ son of Mariam. Say: Then who could prevent Allah if He had wanted to destroy Christ son of Mariam and his mother and those on the earth all together? And to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. He creates what He wills; and Allah is over everything Capable.
[Al Quran ; 5:17]

See you stupid:

They have certainly disbelieved who say: Allah is Christ son of Mariam.

Say: Then who could prevent Allah if He had wanted to destroy Christ son of Mariam and his mother and those on the earth all together?

And to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. He creates what He wills; and Allah is over everything Capable.



وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ (116)
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Mariam! Did you say to the people: Take me and my mother as two gods other than Allah? He (Isa) will say: Glory be to You, it was not for me to say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, You would have known it; You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is in Yourself. Indeed, it is you Who are the Knowing of the unseen.
[Al Quran ; 5:116]

مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلاَّ مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (117)
I did not say to them except that by which you commanded me, to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness over them as long as I was among them, but when You caused me to die, it is You Who were the Watcher over them, and You are over everything Witness.
[Al Quran ; 5:117]

إِن تُعَذِّبْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ عِبَادُكَ وَإِن تَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ فَإِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ (118)
If You castigate them, then indeed, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, then indeed, it is You Who are the Mighty, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 5:118]

Shove yourself back in your cell, you stupid

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:37 am
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:Your translation is rejected, it is all wrong your stupid;Try to bring me some credible translation.
I used Pickthall. He isn't credible? Show me where I got it ALL wrong. :whistling:

As for the rest, the spinning is all in your sweat-head. Relax, and learn to read properly... instead of hammering your intellectual inanity.

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:55 am
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Your translation is rejected, it is all wrong your stupid;Try to bring me some credible translation.
I used Pickthall. He isn't credible? Show me where I got it ALL wrong. :whistling:

As for the rest, the spinning is all in your sweat-head. Relax, and learn to read properly... instead of hammering your intellectual inanity.
When I have time for you inmate pussy, I will get back to you and show you what is wrong in your translation, and if it is by Pickthal, then you may shove it and him up your dumb arse

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:16 am
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:When I have time for you inmate pussy, I will get back to you and show you what is wrong in your translation, and if it is by Pickthal, then you may shove it and him up your dumb arse
Translation: Pickthall, really. Humm... I've messed myself again so I'll run away as usual...
AhmedBahgat wrote:Was Jesus special in your blind eyes because Allah blew into him from His Ruh? Answer yes/no. You stupid dumb fuk on a deluded inmate Also ignorant punk, Masih has a root of Ma Sa Ha. It does not have the letter Sheen, you stupid imbecile
The definition of Masih as Ma Sa Ha comes from Tabari, NOT from the Classical Arabic stemming from the Hebrew, Mashiah or Masiah.

Mā šāʾ Allāh or Masha 'Allah (ما شاء الله), means "God has willed it". Just like Allah's Yasha'a is but a transposition of Yeshua + Logos!
AhmedBahgat wrote:For the stupid, deluded and molested cat... See you stupid:
They have certainly disbelieved who say: Allah is Christ son of Mariam. Say: Then who could prevent Allah if He had wanted to destroy Christ son of Mariam and his mother and those on the earth all together? And to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. He creates what He wills; and Allah is over everything Capable.
[Al Quran ; 5:17]

The word written is al-Masihu, not Christ. Bring me a credible translation. :roflmao:

He creates what he wills (Hey, Yasha'u = Yeshua !!). How could he destroys His own will, word and spirit? The verse only emphasizes what
I came up with: the abna Maryam only has the appearance of a human being for, as the Word and Spirit of God, Yeshua must be timeless.
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Mariam! Did you say to the people: Take me and my mother as two gods other than Allah? He (Isa) will say: Glory be to You, it was not for me to say that to which I had no right. If I had said it, You would have known it; You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is in Yourself. Indeed, it is you Who are the Knowing of the unseen.
[Al Quran ; 5:116]
If Allah already knows what's within Isa, why then all this sudden paranoia from a God? Allah may be the 'Master of the Unseen',
yet this can only emphasizes how Yeshua is, as Allah's will, word and spirit, the true Lord (Isa) of the seen (or incarnated) world.

In 5.110:
--God strengthened Yeshua with the Holy Spirit.
--Allowing him to speak from the cradle.
--No one else taught him the Scripture and Wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel.
--He breathed life into birds of clay...
--Curing miraculously the blind and leper.
--Even raising dead back to life.

Do you know any other messenger that much gifted? No one else is altogether the Ruhullah, Masihullah and Kalimatullah.
Did Muhammad was empowered with breathing life into clay in the likeness of God, or Moses to raised dead back to life?
If You castigate them, then indeed, they are Your servants; and if You forgive them, then indeed, it is You Who are the Mighty, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 5:118]
Shove yourself back in your cell, you stupid
All this is pointing that Allah is indulging into Conspiracy Theory. Yet, He does take the words of Isa as the truth. It's Isa, that is using
reason and logic against a narcissist entity. In the following verse Allah has cooled down. The god is reassured... a lullaby with that?

Thing is that, without Yeshua, Allah's yasha'a is left unto the evanescent unseen, worthy as a clock on Sirius, reigning over ether!

Re: Who's the Koranic father of Jesus?

Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:16 am
by Ghalibkhastahaal
bobs1244 wrote:
Ghalibkhastahaal wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote: So why didn't Allah make the scriptures before the Quran non corruptible like he did with the Quran?
Because Allah had thought that the stone age to bronze age men would keep the words faithfully, but Allah saw them writing on their own and saying, "This is from Allah!", where as those words were not at all from Allah.
Dear Ghalib, I can only hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. Are you saying Allah is capable of misjudgement? I thought he's your all-powerful, all-knowing God! How does he make a miscalculation much like how a common man does? You say Allah is our creator. And yet the creator knows so little about his own creation that he doesn't even know which is the good guy and which is the bad guy? God, that makes no sense whatsoever!!
Allah always knew when the Scripture was forged, corrupted and when people deviated. That is why prophets were sent at interval to the stone age-bronze age people at intervals, as and when necessary, to bring them back to the truth. Otherwise, what was the use of sending Jesus and others?