Is the Koran history or guidance?

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sum
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Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by sum »

I ask this question because two posters - iffo and Mughal - have claimed that Koran 60:4 only applied to those people that were opposed to the teaching of Muhammad in the time of Muhammad.

Muhsin Khan
Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrahim (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in Allah Alone," except the saying of Ibrahim (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from Allah) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allah." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return


Whenever Al Wala' Wal Bara' (Love and Hate for Allah's Sake) is being commented upon by muslim sheikhs they bring up Koran 60:4 as part of their arguement that muslims must hate non-muslims and their culture now and at all times.

If Koran 60:4 is only historical with no relevance for today, one has to ask why it is included in the final guidance for mankind? Is Allah unable to make himself clear?

sum
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by pr126 »

This is a tricky question. It depends.

It is an instruction book for the jihadist, and a history book for the apologist when they engaged in fooling the gullible.

It is safe to assume it to be a command for all time, and since the book is "the word of Allah" valid until judgment day. There again...
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by sum »

Where are the muslims when you want them? Have they no views?

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MesMorial
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

This thread is somewhat alarming.


Where in your quotation does it command Muslims to hate non-Muslims? It is like a prophecy or observation of what will happen (i.e. one will hate the other for their beliefs).

Here is the proof just a few ayah further:


"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."

Qur'an 60:8


As you can see, Ibrahim (SAW) was simply foretelling that people would hate him for his beliefs (applicable not only to his time). Are Muslims commanded to hate anyone here?

Peace.
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sum
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

Are muslims allowed to love those that Allah does not?

sum
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

Hello;

Yes no-where are we commanded to feel this or that. We are allowed to love anyone for their good qualities.

Peace.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by Sten »

MesMorial wrote:Hello;

Yes no-where are we commanded to feel this or that. We are allowed to love anyone for their good qualities.

Peace.

3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
Well it is slightly more complicated than that (nor does that mention love). The language barrier is the thing.

http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/friendship.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


They of course do not cover 3:118 but that is clearly contextual and conditional if you read the ayah.

However I once expounded upon it for people:


Qur’an 3:118

"O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."


3:118 suggests that you should not ally your desires with non-Muslims since ultimately they would prefer you not to be Muslim. They do not “hate” you but simply what you adhere to (i.e. what “defines” you). Anyway, if you know why you are a Muslim then you will know what is good in a non-Muslim and recognise that along with the bad.

Well the key word is “believers”. We could then ask if every Muslim has the same amount of faith. What is it that defines a Muslim and so what is that special boundary which defines him/her in the eyes of God? Only Allah (swt) knows those who are “kuffar”.

Of course “Shahada” defines this according to Muslims, but where is the ritualist requirement for Shahada in the Qur’an and ahadith? Did Muhammad include himself in his Shahada (did he proclaim one?) One simply submits with the only difference being the faith that good and moral conduct is the way of Allah (swt).


Qur'an 3:20

"But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants."


Those who follow the message are Muslims. Now: do not ally your desires with non-Muslims because their short-term desires are not ultimately your own (but never judge since they may change – and of course everyone wants Paradise in the long-term). Appreciate what is good in each person (everyone is imperfect) and understand why they may not accept Islam but never take the driving motivation for disbelief to your heart. Never accept that the way you accepted Islam. This reasoning applies to those who are believers and know why they are. No-one has the right to say that anyone is truly superior to someone because of belief, but they have a right to prefer belief and to say that they think that their path is better. Now they must demonstrate that, and it is difficult if one does not fully grasp why they are Muslim! The only way to do that is to look at potential issues (and not internet miracles) as well as the obvious virtues for the individual. I have always argued that society is built by individuals, not by the mouthpieces of dogma (which is what every opinion is once it escapes the lips of someone who thinks that they are right but cannot explain then why something else is wrong). The difference between those who wear a religion as a mask and those who know why they are religious is that the former are afraid to look through the mask.

I trust this helps.

Khuda hafiz.
Last edited by MesMorial on Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by yeezevee »

Let me remind MesMorial Salam that MesMorial is Muslim., So ...
MesMorial wrote:
Did Muhammad include himself in his Shahada .........
..............
Salaam.
whatever you write with that Salam is all right but don't forget you are Muslim, so don't write Muhammad without those adjectives PBUH, Prophet., SAW.. Ra ..da.. whatever. That is insulting, it appears ffi is moving away the respect you used to give to Mr. Muhammad .. prophet of Islam....
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

yeezevee wrote:Let me remind MesMorial Salam that MesMorial is Muslim., So ...
MesMorial wrote:
Did Muhammad include himself in his Shahada .........
..............
Salaam.
whatever you write with that Salam is all right but don't forget you are Muslim, so don't write Muhammad without those adjectives PBUH, Prophet., SAW.. Ra ..da.. whatever. That is insulting, it appears ffi is moving away the respect you used to give to Mr. Muhammad .. prophet of Islam....
Thankyou as a (Qur'an-alone) Muslim it is not quite necessary (since we know he was loved) but I understand what you mean! As the old saying goes, forgive and forget. In this case forget and forgive.

Peace.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by Lili »

MesMorial wrote:
Blah.. Blah.. Blah..


Those who follow the message are Muslims. Now: do not ally your desires with non-Muslims because their short-term desires are not ultimately your own (but never judge since they may change – and of course everyone wants Paradise in the long-term). Appreciate what is good in each person (everyone is imperfect) and understand why they may not accept Islam but never take the driving motivation for disbelief to your heart. Never accept that the way you accepted Islam. This reasoning applies to those who are believers and know why they are. No-one has the right to say that anyone is truly superior to someone because of belief, but they have a right to prefer belief and to say that they think that their path is better. Now they must demonstrate that, and it is difficult if one does not fully grasp why they are Muslim! The only way to do that is to look at potential issues (and not internet miracles) as well as the obvious virtues for the individual. I have always argued that society is built by individuals, not by the mouthpieces of dogma (which is what every opinion is once it escapes the lips of someone who thinks that they are right but cannot explain then why something else is wrong). The difference between those who wear a religion as a mask and those who know why they are religious is that the former are afraid to look through the mask.

I trust this helps.

Khuda hafiz.
Thank you, MesMorial, it helps indeed. Now we see how Islam instills some serious trust issues in the minds of Muslims. Your explanation makes sense, but this way of not taking non-Muslims as friends (or not trusting them completely but still appreciating their good qualities) is not completely fool-proof. As you said, only Allah can tell a true believer apart from a kuffar. There are some pretty darn good actors out there who will fool you into thinking they are the most pious people ever but are in fact wearing religion as a mask, as you say. I am afraid you will never know what's on the other person's mind, no matter how hard you try (unless of course you are a mind-reader, or Allah ;) ). The loudest declarations of faith, or "looking through the mask", or however you'd like to put it, may all be done for either a show-off, or personal gain, or self-preservation. You would not believe what people can and will do to get by.

I am not even saying all this to disprove that Koran verse or somehow present a claim against Islam. May be, this whole trust issue is much deeper than what a couple of Koran verses tell us. Imho, what you presented to us here does not even begin to cover it.

Peace.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

yeezevee wrote:Let me remind MesMorial Salam that MesMorial is Muslim., So ...
MesMorial wrote:
Did Muhammad include himself in his Shahada .........
..............
Salaam.
whatever you write with that Salam is all right but don't forget you are Muslim, so don't write Muhammad without those adjectives PBUH, Prophet., SAW.. Ra ..da.. whatever. That is insulting, it appears ffi is moving away the respect you used to give to Mr. Muhammad .. prophet of Islam....
Girl, you are right in telling MesMorial to add Pbuh, saw, etc., to our dear Prophet's name. Those are not adjectives, dear girl. Those are blessings sent upon him.

If we add Pbuh, saw, etc., all of you will get irritated. It makes typing easier for us, if we just write Allah and Muhammad. Allah and Muhammad understand. So don't worry.

If you like, we can do that for you, as a special case. For example:

Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) was born in Mecca. Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) was looked after by his mother. After his mother died, Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) became an orphan. Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) was then looked after by Abu Talib, who was his uncle. Abu Talib took good care of Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) and treated Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) like a son. Prophet Muhammad (Sallalaho alaihe wasallam, Salamun alaihe) also loved him very much.

If we start doing this, you will get tired!
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

Thank you, MesMorial, it helps indeed. Now we see how Islam instills some serious trust issues in the minds of Muslims. Your explanation makes sense, but this way of not taking non-Muslims as friends (or not trusting them completely but still appreciating their good qualities) is not completely fool-proof. As you said, only Allah can tell a true believer apart from a kuffar. There are some pretty darn good actors out there who will fool you into thinking they are the most pious people ever but are in fact wearing religion as a mask, as you say. I am afraid you will never know what's on the other person's mind, no matter how hard you try (unless of course you are a mind-reader, or Allah ). The loudest declarations of faith, or "looking through the mask", or however you'd like to put it, may all be done for either a show-off, or personal gain, or self-preservation. You would not believe what people can and will do to get by.

I am not even saying all this to disprove that Koran verse or somehow present a claim against Islam. May be, this whole trust issue is much deeper than what a couple of Koran verses tell us. Imho, what you presented to us here does not even begin to cover it.
Serious trust issues? It is quite plain as I implied by stating you should know why you are a Muslim and hence you will recognise "what is good" in the others. It is simply a philosophy built on faith. If someone professes it then that is their choice and you can only tell by their actions. If you know why you are Muslim then you will know why Islam is right. If you know why you are not Muslim then you will present your reasons and fine they could be (if well informed). It would simply be a case of "you have yours and I have mine". I of course have a responsibility to try to help you see things differently.

Now expanding on the technique of taking trust issues to the extreme, we can imagine that you cannot actually trust anyone you meet regardless of faith. The fact of the matter is no-one is a mind reader and hence religion is of no importance regarding what you said. A universal issue (trust) has been applied to one aspect (faith) and thus to say that wisdom/reflection etc. is a religious issue is like saying that you will need to eat food if you are a politician (or something equally appropriate). If you wish to apply it here specifically, then that is a trust issue on someone else's part.

However, to the pith: tell me how you conclude that Muslims should not take non-Muslims as friends (the Surah and Ayah as well as where I said it).

Peace.

P.S. The rest of your response made sense, but the "trust issue" (no reason for which I could find) seemed like your rationale for rejection.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

You say that you you are allowed to love those non-muslims who have good qualities.

Koran 98:6 Those who reject (Truth - Islam), among the People of the Book(Christians and Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Are you serious about being permitted to love those that Allah hates?

Kafirs (non-muslims) are najis – unclean, impure and best avoided.

Koran 58:22 You, O Muhammad, will not find any people who believe in Allâh and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rûh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens ( Paradise ) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allâh is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allâh. Verily, it is the Party of Allâh that will be the successful.

The muslim view of non-muslims is defined by the Koran - Allah.

I am described as unclean, impure and best avoided. I am one of the worst of creatures. Muslims can not befriend members of their own families if they reject Islam.

Do you not follow the guidance from Allah?

sum
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:This thread is somewhat alarming.


Where in your quotation does it command Muslims to hate non-Muslims? It is like a prophecy or observation of what will happen (i.e. one will hate the other for their beliefs).

Here is the proof just a few ayah further:


"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice."

Qur'an 60:8


As you can see, Ibrahim (SAW) was simply foretelling that people would hate him for his beliefs (applicable not only to his time). Are Muslims commanded to hate anyone here?

Peace.

we have rejected you,

Muslims have rejected non Muslims

and there has started between us and you,

Because Muslims have rejected non Muslims

hostility and hatred for ever,

Muslims will hate non Muslims forever, and vice versa

until you believe in Allah Alone

Unless you become a Muslim
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by Lili »

MesMorial wrote: Serious trust issues? It is quite plain as I implied by stating you should know why you are a Muslim and hence you will recognise "what is good" in the others. It is simply a philosophy built on faith. If someone professes it then that is their choice and you can only tell by their actions. If you know why you are Muslim then you will know why Islam is right. If you know why you are not Muslim then you will present your reasons and fine they could be (if well informed). It would simply be a case of "you have yours and I have mine". I of course have a responsibility to try to help you see things differently.
Now expanding on the technique of taking trust issues to the extreme, we can imagine that you cannot actually trust anyone you meet regardless of faith. The fact of the matter is no-one is a mind reader and hence religion is of no importance regarding what you said. A universal issue (trust) has been applied to one aspect (faith) and thus to say that wisdom/reflection etc. is a religious issue is like saying that you will need to eat food if you are a politician (or something equally appropriate). If you wish to apply it here specifically, then that is a trust issue on someone else's part.

However, to the pith: tell me how you conclude that Muslims should not take non-Muslims as friends (the Surah and Ayah as well as where I said it).

Peace.

P.S. The rest of your response made sense, but the "trust issue" (no reason for which I could find) seemed like your rationale for rejection.
Actually, my rationale for rejection of religion in general and Islam in particular is having been trained in cognitive psychology, but thanks for the honest speculation.

I absolutely did not mean to be negative or demeaning when I pointed the obvious trust issues that Muslims ought to have with non-Muslims, as per your holy book. That's only an observation. Let me tell you something, (and I am sure you are aware of this), whenever a Muslim person makes a new acquaintance, he/she always asks what religion the other person follows. They always make a point of making that distinction. Why? They want to know up front if a stranger is to be trusted or not. (Of course, the less religious Muslims skip that step and trust everyone based on characteristics other than the other person's religious affiliation, but that's not what the Koran tells them to do, is it?)


Islam as a system has an obvious flaw in that regard. No wonder the predominantly Muslim states have such high levels of corruption.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by yeezevee »

sum starts a thread with a Question
Is the Koran history or guidance?

Quran has neither history nor guidance., it is silly book copy/pasted and illed with some fabricated stories of earlier religions that were there in and around Arabia ., These fools who put together that book have dome a very poor job and many verses are repeated so many things in so many verses ., it looks that book was never edited and never read together using brain and multiple guys may have added these verses at different times.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

we have rejected you,

Muslims have rejected non Muslims

and there has started between us and you,

Because Muslims have rejected non Muslims

hostility and hatred for ever,

Muslims will hate non Muslims forever, and vice versa

until you believe in Allah Alone

Unless you become a Muslim

So explain what type of people they were and hence clarify if it is good or bad. You added the "vice versa" and 60:8 disproved you anyway.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

Koran 98:6 Those who reject (Truth - Islam), among the People of the Book(Christians and Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Are you serious about being permitted to love those that Allah hates?

Kafirs (non-muslims) are najis – unclean, impure and best avoided.

Koran 58:22 You, O Muhammad, will not find any people who believe in Allâh and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rûh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And We will admit them to Gardens ( Paradise ) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allâh is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allâh. Verily, it is the Party of Allâh that will be the successful.

The muslim view of non-muslims is defined by the Koran - Allah.

I am described as unclean, impure and best avoided. I am one of the worst of creatures. Muslims can not befriend members of their own families if they reject Islam.

Do you not follow the guidance from Allah?

sum
You look at things too simply (though not as much as some) and I would like you to bring the verse about families.

Would you allow a psychological analysis to diagnose your attitude to Islam (i.e. to see if you are just a critic for the amusement or you are exploring it)?

Are you a Person of the Book? And if so do you believe in God? Are you a polytheist? What do you believe in?

Peace.
Last edited by MesMorial on Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the Koran history or guidance?

Post by MesMorial »

Actually, my rationale for rejection of religion in general and Islam in particular is having been trained in cognitive psychology, but thanks for the honest speculation.

I absolutely did not mean to be negative or demeaning when I pointed the obvious trust issues that Muslims ought to have with non-Muslims, as per your holy book. That's only an observation. Let me tell you something, (and I am sure you are aware of this), whenever a Muslim person makes a new acquaintance, he/she always asks what religion the other person follows. They always make a point of making that distinction. Why? They want to know up front if a stranger is to be trusted or not. (Of course, the less religious Muslims skip that step and trust everyone based on characteristics other than the other person's religious affiliation, but that's not what the Koran tells them to do, is it?)


Islam as a system has an obvious flaw in that regard. No wonder the predominantly Muslim states have such high levels of corruption.
Well Muslims I talked to when I was non-Muslim never asked me what religion I was from.
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