A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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zamie
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A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

Who was the first Muslim?

Greetings and welcome to the thread. This is an open challenge to all Muslims, and will provide the good Muslim with an excellent opportunity to win favour from Allah and to show the world that their religion is the truth. To pass this challenge, a Muslim must defend the following claim against the legitimacy of their koran.
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1. The Koran contradicts itself when it calls Moses the first to believe (mu-min)

This seems like a very simple question, but there is much background behind this claim, let's begin with my argument.

The Koran makes numerous claims on who the first Muslim was.

1. Moses (Koran, 7:143)
2. Muhammad (Koran, 6:14)
3. Egyptian magicians (Koran, 26:51)
4. Adam ( Adam =first man , all men are born Muslim, therefore he is the first muslim (implied) (ADAM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARGUMENT)

Here we have an obvious contradiction. Muslims use two legitimate excuses to circumvent this error.

1. It is first Muslim of their respective tribe.
2. There is a difference between a mu-min and a submitter(Muslim)

These two excuses are both legitimate and here is the proof.

Quran, 614:
Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.

As you can see in the blue section of the above verse, it says 'not of the polytheists.' Muslims interpret this as Muhammad being the first of the polytheist tribe to revert to Islam. They also apply this to all other verses in which one claims himself to be the first muslims, and indeed they must do this, or they will run into serious error shown in the above lists of people who claim to be first muslim.

As I previously said, I will accept the 'first Muslims of tribe' interpretation.

The second excuse Muslims use is the ' There is a difference between a mu-min(believer) and a submitter(Muslim.) Indeed there is a difference between these two positions in the Islamic religion and I will prove the claim of the Muslim apologetics to be true.

Quran, 49:14
The Arabs of the desert say, "We believe." (tu/minoo) Say thou: Ye believe not; but rather say, "We profess Islam;" (aslamna) for the faith (al-imanu) hath not yet found its way into your hearts. But if ye obey God and His Apostle, he will not allow you to lose any of your actions: for God is Indulgent, Merciful.

As you can see in the above verse, the Arabs of the desert called themselves mu-min(transliterations will vary in spelling), and Allah told them that they were not faithful enough to call themselves mu-min and belittles their titles to the title 'Muslim(aslamna.) From this we can infer that the title 'mu-min requires much more faith and devotion to Allah than the title Muslim. There is a good article about it here if you want to find out more. (http://www.free-minds.org/node/10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Now that we have established that the interpretation is 'first of the tribe' and that there is a difference between a mu-min and a Muslim, we can relate this to our contradiction. If one were to call themselves 'first to believe' and another person said this too or was found to believe through their actions, it would only be a contradiction If these two people were both mu-min or both Muslims.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So in order for a Muslim to reconcile this contradiction, a Muslim must prove that the two people being examined are either of different tribes or do not have the same level of faith.

The two people who I will be using to prove the contradiction are Moses(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses)and his mother named Jochebed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochebed)

Moses and his mother lived in Egypt under the reign of the pharaoh Firon. Both Moses and his mother were born in Egypt. The moses family has roots in the Jewish tribe of the levites and thus already had some history and knowledge of the one God Allah.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite)

We have already established the 'of the tribe' interpretation. The grounds for this establishment are based on verse 6:14, in which Muhammad claims to be the first of his tribe to believe. The tribe to which Muhammad belonged were the 'Quraysh,' and we can further divide muhammd's roots the family 'Banū Hāshim' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hashim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)So, since Muhammad was part of the Quraysh because he was born there, Moses and his mother must too belong to the same tribe in which they were born.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh_(tribe))

From this evidence it is fair to infer that moses and his mother were either members of the levite tribe or the Egyptian tribe. What ever tribe they are part of, they were definitely both of the same tribe. However, if one wants to consider that moses was not part of his mothers tribe, but rather, an Egyptian, then there is still a contradiction, and this contradiction you will learn later on in the argument.


So indeed moses and his mother are of the same tribe , and now we must prove that both moses and his mother had the same faith.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moses was definitely a 'mu-min' and we know this simply because he declares himself to be one at Mount Sinai.

Quran, 7:143

And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

To determine whether Moses was a mu-min, we can examine the Arabic of this verse. We must address the blue coloured section.

اسم مجرور


When we examine the transliteration of this verse, we can definitely see the word l-mu'minīna(http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... &verse=143)

So we have now established that moses indeed declared himself to be a 'l-mu'minīna' To prove a contradiction, we must now prove that the mother of moses is also a 'l-mu'minīna' (keep in mind that mu minina is plural for mu-min)

In the Koran there are only very few verses that are directed to the mother of moses, and in them she never distinguishes herself between a mu-min and a muslim. So in order to prove her to be mu-min, we must examine her actions and faith and compare them to another group of people who also called themselves mu-min.

Here are the following verses in which she is mentioned or the main character.

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. S. 28:7

[20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;

We only have three verses here, and from these three verses, we must determine whether or not she was a mu-min or a believer. To do this, we will compare her to the faith and actions of the Egyptian magicians whom the koran named 'mu-min'.

Quran, 26:38-51

[26.38] So the magicians were gathered together at the appointed time on the fixed day,
[26.39] And it was said to the people: Will you gather together?
[26.40] Haply we may follow the magicians, if they are the vanquishers.
[26.41] And when the magicians came, they said to Firon: Shall we get a reward if we are the vanquishers?
[26.42] He said: Yes, and surely you will then be of those who are made near.
[26.43] Musa said to them: Cast what you are going to cast.
[26.44] So they cast down their cords and their rods and said: By Firon's power, we shall most surely be victorious.
[26.45] Then Musa cast down his staff and lo! it swallowed up the lies they told.
[26.46] And the magicians were thrown down prostrate;
[26.47] They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds:
[26.48] The Lord of Musa and Haroun.
[26.49] Said he: You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know: certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will crucify you all.
[26.50] They said: No harm; surely to our Lord we go back;
[26.51] Surely we hope that our Lord will forgive us our wrongs because we are the first of the believers.

The above verse is a confrontation between Moses and the Egyptians. This confrontation occurred after moses met Allah at the burning bush. When the magicians saw what moses did, they were so overjoyed and shocked, and thus the Koran calls them the first to believe. To determine whether they are mu-min or Muslims, we will again look at the Arabic.

اسم مجرور

If we look at the transliteration, we can clearly see that the word 'mu-min' is used here. (l-mu'minīna)(http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 6&verse=51)

Now that we have determined that the Egyptians were mu-min, let's compare their faith and actions to that of Moses' mother. It's clear that the Egyptians believed in god, and it's also clear that they knew and believed moses to be the prophet. However these Egyptians obviously did not believe in any scripture , as the old testament was not yet written at this point in history. Therefore we can infer that their faith was that they belied in god and that they believed in Moses as a prophet, and according to the koran, this is enough faith to be a mu-min.

Now, let's compare this to the Mother of Moses.

We know that Moses's mother believed in god, as we know that she obeyed his words.

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. S. 28:7

Here we will prove that the mother of moses believed in Allah

In this verse, a being named Allah is telling a mother to put their baby into a basket on top of a river. Now I ask you, if somebody told you to put your little child in a basket on a river, would you do what they said? If force is not used, a belief in the person, their actions, and agenda, would be required to make such a leap of faith. Since we know that the mother of moses did indeed adhere the the commands of god, we can infer that she did indeed believe in him.

Here we will prove that the mother of moses believed and knew that moses was a prophet from god.


Quran, 28:7

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. S. 28:7

As you can see by the blue section, Allah told the mother of moses that he would make moses a prophet. So obviously she knew it and believed it.

We can even prove that the faith of moses's mother was greater than the Egyptian, thus ensuring her position as a mu-min. Many muslims will tell you that a belief in scripture is essential to be mu-min, however no scripture was available at this time. However since scripture is the 'word of god,' would it matter if it was written down or spoken? Surely not. So essentially, the mother of moses did believe and adhere to the word of god, as god did indeed speak to her, and she did indeed obey.

Now we have proven that the level of faith of the mother of moses and the Egyptian magicians was the same, thus making her also a mu-min.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we come to the final question. If moses and his mother were of the same tribe and had the same faith, how could the Koran call moses the first to believe, while his mother believed in god before him.


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I which all participants good luck, and look forward to the responses.
Thanks, Zamie.

-----------------------------------------
Tally of defeated Muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal



--------------------
Update:
I said earlier that a muslim could possibly contrive that moses and his mother were of different tribes, however doing so would definitely place moses as an Egyptian. The reasons for this is that moses grew up in the Egyptian court and had the wife of the pharaoh as his adopted mother. So if a muslim says that moses is part of the Egyptian tribe, then this contradicts the magicians who said that they were the first mu-min.

Evidence:

Evidence that the wife of the pharaoh was the adoptive mother of moses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiya,_wif ... -Wheeler-1)
Last edited by zamie on Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:36 pm, edited 14 times in total.
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Ghalibkhastahaal
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: A challenge to Muslims.

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

zamie wrote:Who was the first Muslim?

Greetings and welcome to the thread. This is an open challenge to all Muslims, and will provide the good Muslim with an excellent opportunity to win favour from Allah and to show the world that their religion is the truth. To pass this challenge, a Muslim must defend the following claim against the legitimacy of their koran.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. The Koran contradicts itself when it calls Moses the first to believe (mu-min)

This seems like a very simple question, but there is much background behind this claim, let's begin with my argument.

The Koran makes numerous claims on who the first Muslim was.

1. Moses (Koran, 7:143)
2. Muhammad (Koran, 6:14)
3. Egyptian magicians (Koran, 26:51)
4. Adam (Koran, 2:37)

Here we have an obvious contradiction. Muslims use two legitimate excuses to circumvent this error.

1. It is first Muslim of their respective tribe.
2. There is a difference between a mu-min and a submitter

These two excuses are both legitimate and here is the proof.

Quran, 614:
Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.

As you can see in the blue section of the above verse, it says 'not of the polytheists.' Muslims interpret this as Muhammad being the first of the polytheist tribe to revert to Islam. They also apply this to all other verses in which one claims himself to be the first muslims, and indeed they must do this, or they will run into serious error shown in the above lists of people who claim to be first muslim.

As I previously said, I will accept the 'first Muslims of tribe' interpretation.

The second excuse Muslims use is the ' There is a difference between a mu-min(believer) and a submitter(Muslim.) Indeed there is a difference between these two positions in the Islamic religion and I will prove the claim of the Muslim apologetics to be true.

Quran, 49:14
The Arabs of the desert say, "We believe." (tu/minoo) Say thou: Ye believe not; but rather say, "We profess Islam;" (aslamna) for the faith (al-imanu) hath not yet found its way into your hearts. But if ye obey God and His Apostle, he will not allow you to lose any of your actions: for God is Indulgent, Merciful.

As you can see in the above verse, the Arabs of the desert called themselves mu-min(transliterations will vary in spelling), and Allah told them that they were not faithful enough to call themselves mu-min and belittles their titles to the title 'Muslim(aslamna.) From this we can infer that the title 'mu-min requires much more faith and devotion to Allah than the title Muslim. There is a good article about it here if you want to find out more. (http://www.free-minds.org/node/10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Now that we have established that the interpretation is 'first of the tribe' and that there is a difference between a mu-min and a Muslim, we can relate this to our contradiction. If one were to call themselves 'first to believe' and another person said this too or was found to believe through their actions, it would only be a contradiction If these two people were both mu-min or both Muslims.

So in order for a Muslim to reconcile this contradiction, a Muslim must prove that the two people being examined are either of different tribes or do not have the same level of faith.

The two people who I will be using to prove the contradiction are Moses(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses)and his mother named Jochebed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochebed)

Moses and his mother lived in Egypt under the reign of the pharaoh Firon. Both Moses and his mother were born in Egypt. The moses family has roots in the Jewish tribe of the levites and thus already had some history and knowledge of the one God Allah.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite)

We have already established the 'of the tribe' interpretation. The grounds for this establishment are based on verse 6:14, in which Muhammad claims to be the first of his tribe to believe. The tribe to which Muhammad belonged were the 'Quraysh,' and we can further divide muhammd's roots the family 'Banū Hāshim' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hashim" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)So, since Muhammad was part of the Quraysh because he was born there, Moses and his mother must too belong to the same tribe.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh_(tribe))

From this evidence it is fair to infer that moses and his mother were either members of the levite tribe or the Egyptian tribe. What ever tribe they are part of, they were definitely both of the same tribe.


So indeed moses and his mother are of the same tribe , and now we must prove that both moses and his mother had the same faith.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moses was definitely a 'mu-min' and we know this simply because he declares himself to be one at Mount Sinai.

Quran, 7:143

And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

To determine whether Moses was a mu-min, we can examine the Arabic of this verse. We must address the blue coloured section.

اسم مجرور


When we examine the transliteration of this verse, we can definitely see the word l-mu'minīna(http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... &verse=143)

So we have now established that moses indeed declared himself to be a 'l-mu'minīna' To prove a contradiction, we must now prove that the mother of moses is also a 'l-mu'minīna' (keep in mind that mu minina is plural for mu-min)

In the Koran there are only very few verses that are directed to the mother of moses, and in them she never distinguishes herself between a mu-min and a muslim. So in order to prove her to be mu-min, we must examine her actions and faith and compare them to another group of people who also called themselves mu-min.

Here are the following verses in which she is mentioned or the main character.

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. S. 28:7

[20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;

We only have three verses here, and from these three verses, we must determine whether or not she was a mu-min or a believer. To do this, we will compare her to the faith and actions of the Egyptian magicians whom the koran named 'mu-min'.

Quran, 26:38-51

[26.38] So the magicians were gathered together at the appointed time on the fixed day,
[26.39] And it was said to the people: Will you gather together?
[26.40] Haply we may follow the magicians, if they are the vanquishers.
[26.41] And when the magicians came, they said to Firon: Shall we get a reward if we are the vanquishers?
[26.42] He said: Yes, and surely you will then be of those who are made near.
[26.43] Musa said to them: Cast what you are going to cast.
[26.44] So they cast down their cords and their rods and said: By Firon's power, we shall most surely be victorious.
[26.45] Then Musa cast down his staff and lo! it swallowed up the lies they told.
[26.46] And the magicians were thrown down prostrate;
[26.47] They said: We believe in the Lord of the worlds:
[26.48] The Lord of Musa and Haroun.
[26.49] Said he: You believe in him before I give you permission; most surely he is the chief of you who taught you the magic, so you shall know: certainly I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and certainly I will crucify you all.
[26.50] They said: No harm; surely to our Lord we go back;
[26.51] Surely we hope that our Lord will forgive us our wrongs because we are the first of the believers.

The above verse is a confrontation between Moses and the Egyptians. This confrontation occurred after moses met Allah at the burning bush. When the magicians saw what moses did, they were so overjoyed and shocked, and thus the Koran calls them the first to believe. To determine whether they are mu-min or Muslims, we will again look at the Arabic.

اسم مجرور

If we look at the transliteration, we can clearly see that the word 'mu-min' is used here. (l-mu'minīna)(http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 6&verse=51)

Now that we have determined that the Egyptians were mu-min, let's compare their faith and actions to that of Moses' mother. It's clear that the Egyptians believed in god, and it's also clear that they knew and believed moses to be the prophet. However these Egyptians obviously did not believe in any scripture , as the old testament was not yet written at this point in history. Therefore we can infer that their faith was that they belied in god and that they believed in Moses as a prophet, and according to the koran, this is enough faith to be a mu-min.

Now, let's compare this to the Mother of Moses.

We know that Moses's mother believed in god, as we know that she obeyed his words.

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. S. 28:7

Here we will prove that the mother of moses believed in Allah

In this verse, a being named Allah is telling a mother to put their baby into a basket on top of a river. Now I ask you, if somebody told you to put your little child in a basket on a river, would you do what they said? Unless you were being forced into doing it, a belief in the person, their actions, and agenda, would be required to make such a leap of faith. Since we know that the mother of moses did indeed adhere the the commands of god, we can infer that she did indeed believe in him.

Here we will prove that the mother of moses believed and knew that moses was a prophet from god.


Quran, 28:7

And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers. S. 28:7

As you can see by the blue section, Allah told the mother of moses that he would make moses a prophet. So obviously she knew it and believed it.

Now we have proven that the level of faith of the mother of moses and the Egyptian magicians was the same, thus making her also a mu-min.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we come to the final question. If moses and his mother were of the same tribe and had the same faith, how could the Koran call moses the first to believe, while his mother believed in god before him.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I which all participants good luck, and look forward to the responses.
Thanks, Zamie.
Thank you very much for the warm greetings and a welcome to the thread. I would have liked to go through you entire post but I am not impressed at all with your knowledge. How can I accept your silly challenge when you do not even understand what Quran says. I wish to blow apart your challenge with the following: You wrote and I quote "This seems like a very simple question, but there is much background behind this claim, let's begin with my argument.

The Koran makes numerous claims on who the first Muslim was.

1. Moses (Koran, 7:143)
2. Muhammad (Koran, 6:14)
3. Egyptian magicians (Koran, 26:51)
4. Adam (Koran, 2:37)

Here we have an obvious contradiction." Let me tell you that you made a big blunder in item 4 by misquoting a verse, which has nothing to do with your argument and challenge. 2:37 does not talk at all about Adam being the first Muslim. It only says that God forgave him. I would not like to waste my time on your topic.

User avatar
zamie
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: A challenge to Muslims...who was the first Muslim?

Post by zamie »

Sir, if you bothered to read my argument, you would know that it has nothing to do with adam. If you think it's wrong i will change it. So really, you have not at all refuted me, because i only mention adam's name once. This argument is about moses and his mum. You are actually a typical muslim. You simply find one minor error and that to you is justification that you are right. It's no wonder then that there are so few noble prises awarded to muslims..

UPDATE:

Happy dude, i deleted it. The problem is however still there. If you really want to prove yourself to allah, at least make an attempt. Are you too much of a coward?

Tally of defeated Muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Ghalibkhastahaal
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: A challenge to Muslims...who was the first Muslim?

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

zamie wrote:Sir, if you bothered to read my argument, you would know that it has nothing to do with adam. If you think it's wrong i will change it. So really, you have not at all refuted me, because i only mention adam's name once. This argument is about moses and his mum. You are actually a typical muslim. You simply find one minor error and that to you is justification that you are right. It's no wonder then that there are so few noble prises awarded to muslims..

UPDATE:

Happy dude, i deleted it. The problem is however still there. If you really want to prove yourself to allah, at least make an attempt. Are you too much of a coward?

Tally of defeated Muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal
What are you celebrating?

Why did you delete it, Dude? Was that because I pointed out a blunder in your argument? You stand dismissed, Dude!

User avatar
zamie
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: A challenge to Muslims...who was the first Muslim?

Post by zamie »

let me begin by saying that this argument has nothing at all to do with Adam. Mr Ghalibkhastahaal has convinced himself that a man named adam, who is only mentioned in one line of my argument, plays a decisive role in an argument with over 1,900 words. If you actually bothered to read it, you would know that it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Adam. I simply used him to show how many people the koran claims to be first muslim, and i used the wrong verse...big deal, that does not at all change the fact that he is first muslim, and it does not at all change the fact that my argument has nothing to do with ADAM..

ADAM=first man, All men are born muslim, therefore adam is first muslim (implied) And don't give me the crap that there is no implied meaning to verses in the koran, as you muslims use this logic all the time. EG, the verse that says the world took 8 days to make. Give me a break dude.


Since it's clear that you can't be bothered to read my argument mr Ghalibkhastahaal, i will summarise it for you into little baby bits so that you can understand.

Why does koran say that moses is first muslim when his mum believed in allah before him. Now all the evidence is in the argument, please refute it. Thanks.

And yes, just for your satisfaction i re-added adam to the argument. And no, if he's in it or out of it, it really makes no difference. Please read the whole thing before commenting, not doing so is simply retardation. You even admitted that you did not read the whole argument, how can anyone even take you seriously..

Defeated muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

User avatar
zamie
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:56 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

Should i assume something from this silence?

Defeated muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Ghalibkhastahaal
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:20 pm

Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

zamie wrote:Should i assume something from this silence?

Defeated muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal
You must also think that folks can be busy. Put your horn back into your baggy pants.

This is what you wrote first:
zamie wrote:The Koran makes numerous claims on who the first Muslim was.

1. Moses (Koran, 7:143)
2. Muhammad (Koran, 6:14)
3. Egyptian magicians (Koran, 26:51)
4. Adam (Koran, 2:37)

Here we have an obvious contradiction. Muslims use two legitimate excuses to circumvent this error.
See the emboldened parts in your original quote. I pointed out your blunder because Quran never says that Adam was the first Muslim.
I dismissed you. You panicked and deleted item 4 and I sprayed coffee all over my keyboard.
I had to buy a new one.

So, you stand dismissed! I can't waste my time on you, friend. Your post is silly!

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zamie
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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

Sir, there is a reason that i left yahoo answers and came here to debate muslims. I thought that the people here against whom i would be arguing actually had integrity and just a bit of logic. You clearly lack both of these things. Your integrity when straight out the window when you admitted that you never read the argument, and your logic disappeared with it when you convinced yourself that this argument bases itself on the character Adam.

Idiot. Adam has nothing to do with this argument. Please read the whole thing.

And anyway, adam was the first muslim, so what the hell are you talking about? (yes, it's implied. Just like your fellow cronies imply that the verse that calls 8 days of creation actually means 6...

Sir, If i included adam or excluded him from the argument, it would make no difference. I simply quoted the wrong verse about adam, who has nothing at all to do with the argument. Since you are unable to refute the fact that there is a contradiction between moses and his mother, you have convinced yourself that this argument relies on Adam, and in no way does. I also made it very clear that this is about moses, but i assume you never read the argument.

THANKS for pointing out that i quoted the wrong verse, now can you please tell me why moses called himself the first mu-min when his mum was a mu--min before him... That is the whole point of the Argument, you do realise?


Defeated muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal


INdeed i did write that, and the whoele world can know for all i care, because it changed nothing.

YES I Wrote that adamn is mentioned as first muslim in verse 2.37..big deal..


ghall, if you post this crap once more in this thread, i will report you for spamming. You've made your point, and i realsied my mistake, but i am definitely right in saying that you and your religion are refuted as you were unable to refute the argument against your koran. The augmenter is about moses and his mum, not adam. I made this damn clear, yet you ignore it, because you are unable to refute my argument. You are just a typical muslim, another one of the one billion slobs on the planet. You simply look for the most tiny insignificant error, and to your tiny brain, this is justification that your god is right. What a sad and pathetic human you are. You would have fared better as a pig, at least you would never have to think.
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

Ghalibkhastahaal
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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

zamie wrote:Firstly, thanks for all the bumps you're giving me fool..


Idiot. Adam has nothing to do with this argument. Please read the whole thing.

And anyway, adam was the first muslim, so what the hell are you talking about?

Sir, If i included adam or excluded him from the argument, it would make no difference. I simply quoted the wrong verse about adam, who has nothing at all to do with the argument. Since you are unable to refute the fact that there is a contradiction between moses and his mother, you have convinced yourself that this argument relies on Adam, and in no way does. I also made it very clear that this is about moses, but i assume you never read the argument.

THANKS for pointing out that i quoted the wrong verse, now can you please tell me why moses called himself the first mu-min when his mum was a mu--min before him... That is the whole point of the Argument, you do realise?


Defeated muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal


INdeed i did write that, and the whoele world can know for all i care, because it changed nothing.

YES I Wrote that adamn is mentioned as first muslim in verse 2.37..big deal..


ghall, if you post this crap once more in this thread, i will report you for spamming. You've made your point, and i realsied my mistake, but i am definitely right in saying that you and your religion are refuted as you were unable to refute the argument against your koran. The augmenter is about moses and his mum, not adam. I made this damn clear, yet you ignore it, because you are unable to refute my argument. You are just a typical muslim, another one of the one billion slobs on the planet. You simply look for the most tiny insignificant error, and to your tiny brain, this is justification that your god is right. What a sad and pathetic human you are. You would have fared better as a pig, at least you would never have to think.
Yes, that was a big blunder, so it is a big deal. You should not have written that.

Let us move on to 26:51 and it says, "Only, our desire is that our Lord will forgive us our faults, that we may become foremost among the believers!"

Moses and Aaron were already believers long before the Pharoah's magicians said that. Thus, they were the first one to believe among people from Pharoah's side. What, then, is your problem with 26:51?

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

MY PROBLEM IS WITH THE MOTHER OF MOSES AND MOSES, just like i said in the damn argument, please read it. WHy the hell are you talking about the brother of moses, i never even mentioned him?? Jesus damn christ dude.

Ok, since you are too lazy to read my argument, let me again summarise it for you.

Why does moses call himself the first to believe, when his mother believe before him. These people were both mu-min and both of the same tribe. NOw mr, your goal is to prove this wrong, understand now??

So, is it no too much to ask of you to read my argument? Really, is it too much?
Last edited by zamie on Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

zamie wrote:MY PROBLEM IS WITH THE MOTHER OF MOSES AND MOSES, just like i said in the damn argument, please read it. WHy the hell are you talking about the brother of moses, i never even mentioned him?? Jesus damn christ dude.

Ok, since you are too lazy to read my argument, let me again summarise it for your dumb brain..

Why does moses call himself the first to believe, when his mother believe before him. These people were both mu-min and both of the same tribe. NOw mr, your goal is to prove this wrong, understand now??
You may ignore the name of Aaron. No problem. But did you understand my point. Having settled that the magicians were the first to believe from the other party, I will now move to what you have written. I have emboldened the part in your quote.

Moses' mother was a believer long before Moses believed. Moses came to believe later, when he went up the hill. When he lived with the Pharoah's family, Moses was a Kafir.

So, what is your problem here? I have to go now. Will check you out later. Keep reading and thinking.

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

You may ignore the name of Aaron. No problem. But did you understand my point. Having settled that the magicians were the first to believe from the other party, I will now move to what you have written. I have emboldened the part in your quote.

Moses' mother was a believer long before Moses believed. Moses came to believe later, when he went up the hill. When he lived with the Pharoah's family, Moses was a Kafir.

So, what is your problem here? I have to go now. Will check you out later. Keep reading and thinking.
Yes perhaps he was, so how could moses call himself first to believe when his mum believed before him? And if you admitted that moses lived in the pharaohs court, could one not also interpret him as a member of the Egyptian tribe, thus making a contradiction between the magicians? However you want to interpret it sir, i don't think you can squirm your way out of it.

Also, if you actually bothered to read my argument, you would know that i accepted the 'first of tribe' interpretation, so i don't know why you even bothered to write that as a refutation. You still fail to realise that the error is with the mum of moses and moses. And i really don't want to argue with someone who does not even read what i say. Its' nothing short of retarded, and i don't think anyone would disagree with that. :wacko:
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by Ghalibkhastahaal »

zamie wrote:
You may ignore the name of Aaron. No problem. But did you understand my point. Having settled that the magicians were the first to believe from the other party, I will now move to what you have written. I have emboldened the part in your quote.

Moses' mother was a believer long before Moses believed. Moses came to believe later, when he went up the hill. When he lived with the Pharoah's family, Moses was a Kafir.

So, what is your problem here? I have to go now. Will check you out later. Keep reading and thinking.
Yes perhaps he was, so how could moses call himself first to believe when his mum believed before him? And if you admitted that moses lived in the pharaohs court, could one not also interpret him as a member of the Egyptian tribe, thus making a contradiction between the magicians? However you want to interpret it sir, i don't think you can squirm your way out of it.
No perhaps. I have already made that clear. Regarding your next comment, the answer is again a No. Magicians were commoners, while Moses was royal.
zamie wrote:Also, if you actually bothered to read my argument, you would know that i accepted the 'first of tribe' interpretation, so i don't know why you even bothered to write that as a refutation. You still fail to realise that the error is with the mum of moses and moses. And i really don't want to argue with someone who does not even read what i say. Its' nothing short of retarded, and i don't think anyone would disagree with that. :wacko:
I can't be bothered with long meaningless, foolish posts and tirades. You have no real argument and you look pretty confused. I like short exchanges.

Moses believed only after his encounter on the hill top. And when he believed, he was in a different land. His mother was not with him. Before he went up the hill, he did not know what the woman believed in. He only realized that his mother was a believer only after he had returned.

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

I can't be bothered with long meaningless, foolish posts and tirades. You have no real argument and you look pretty confused. I like short exchanges.

Moses believed only after his encounter on the hill top. And when he believed, he was in a different land. His mother was not with him. Before he went up the hill, he did not know what the woman believed in. He only realized that his mother was a believer only after he had returned.
one again you failed to read my argument. Indeed moses knew that his mother believed, and i already proved it in my argument, and here is the evidence..

[20.36] He said: You are indeed granted your petition, O Musa And certainly We bestowed on you a favor at another time;
[20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;

This little encounter occurred while moses met god at the burning bush. So indeed we can see that moses knew before mount Sinai..

Now, you can't just say that they are not of the same tribe without proving it. Prove that they are not of the same tribe. Sir, i already showed that one is part of the tribe to which one is born, and it is from this assumption that the whole tribe interpretation came about. I explained the clearly in my argument, and you have ignored it. Now, if you want to circumvent this by saying that it's not the 'first of tribe' interpretation , then you run into serious error. Also, if you want to assume that moses is not part of his mum's tribe, of what tribe is he?? The Egyptian tribe? Well if that is so, then why did the Egyptians say that they were the first to believe?
No perhaps. I have already made that clear. Regarding your next comment, the answer is again a No. Magicians were commoners, while Moses was royal.

Excuse me sir, you must prove to me that being a royal and being a commoner is enough of a difference to circumvent this contradiction. Please do that, and then i may believe you. You can't just say something without proving it. You are simply making up more and more excuses as you go, and they are getting worse and worse. Next you will be saying that it's the first to believe with 77 hairs on the elbow. Also, you failed to realise that the mother of moses (adoptive mother) was a \monotheist, let me show you from your own koran..Is she not a royal? She was the wife of the pharaoh...

^ "And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh, behold she said: O my Lord! build for me, in nearness to You, a mansion in the garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong." (Qur'an 66:11).


We also know that the pharaoh killed his wife for being a monotheist. This must have been before mount sinai because the pharaoh perished in the sea which was before moses said he was the first to believe. (you don't have to accept this source, i'm only saying..(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiya,_wife_of_the_Pharaoh)



Why should i even take you seriously. You admitted that you never even read the argument, you're a joke.


Defeated muslims so far..

1. Ghalibkhastahaal
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by MesMorial »

@ Zamie

Why do you go to so much trouble to prove that Musa's (SAW) mother was a believer? It says it plainly in 28:10 and 28:13.

Now Musa (SAW) would have heard something from his mother about the prophecy, and then she might have mentioned that he was to be a messenger. Since he was to be a messenger, he would need a people to deliver the message to (his mother not included since she was already a believer). His people were the Israelites (the people he would lead), and thus technically he was the first of the believers of his people.


"And We revealed to Musa's mothers, saying: Give him suck, then when you fear for him, cast him into the river and do not fear nor grieve; surely We will bring him back to you and make him one of the messengers."

Qur'an 28:7


If she had not told him about it, then it would be expected that he call himself the first believer.

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

wow thank you mesmorial, that has made my job much easier. SO indeed the mother of moses was a mu-min thus placing her on the same faith as moses. So the contradiction is even more justifiable now. Thank you mes.

But mes, god did indeed tell moses that his mother was a beliver, see the following verses..

[20.36] He said: You are indeed granted your petition, O Musa And certainly We bestowed on you a favor at another time;
[20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;
Last edited by zamie on Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by MesMorial »

Also we don't actually know what Allah (swt) said to Musa (SAW) before he broke the mountain:


"Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists."

Qur'an 6:14


(Muhammad (SAW) said that).

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by MesMorial »

zamie wrote:wow thank you mesmorial, that has made my job much easier. SO indeed the mother of moses was a mu-min thus placing her on the same faith as moses. So the contradiction is even more justifiable now. Thank you mes.
Yes it does help to read the Qur'an :lol:

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by zamie »

yes -) Anyway, i proved it before using other means, but yes, simply using that as as evidence would have been easier.
The muslim challenge. If you cannot answer it, your religion is refuted.
(viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8341)

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Re: A challenge to Muslims...Moses or his mother, who first?

Post by MesMorial »

zamie wrote:wow thank you mesmorial, that has made my job much easier. SO indeed the mother of moses was a mu-min thus placing her on the same faith as moses. So the contradiction is even more justifiable now. Thank you mes.

But mes, god did indeed tell moses that his mother was a beliver, see the following verses..

[20.36] He said: You are indeed granted your petition, O Musa And certainly We bestowed on you a favor at another time;
[20.38] When We revealed to your mother what was revealed;
[20.39] Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;
That was after Allah (swt) first spoke to Musa (SAW) was it not (i.e. after the mountain)?
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