Page 1 of 13

Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:51 pm
by The Cat
Allah as Law: The Law!

I'll explain why the Koran should be understood like the American Constitution: A code of laws.
To many Americans, those are held sacred... as if divinely inspired. Here's an Islamic transliteration:

We Allah, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,
promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Koran.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were equally created by Allah, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, only found when you're at peace with God (Islama).


We like to think of Islam as an ideology, well it's not quite so.
Basically Islam, as it is nowadays, is rather A CODE OF LAWS.

We like to give our proofs that it can't be from a God, that is human fabric and to point out its flaws and discuss all over them with indignation. But I think that we miss the most important point about the Koran: as the Islamic sacred book it is essentially a whole code of laws, to which we must add (as it is wrongly) the hadiths, sira and tafsirs. Those and others like Fiqh, act as jurisprudence.

So we're still and always within a legal procedure. When we deal with it as we do, we fail to understand what we're dealing with. At the end, it doesn't really matter if it's man-made or not, if some verses appear to us mere nonsense. The Koran and the Islamic jurisprudence are left untouched by all our critics because they come down to blast over let's say the American Constitution.

Imams and Mullahs are more akin to our notion of lawyers than they are to our notion of priests. So to deal with the Koran the way we usually do is totally missing the point and so there's a huge misrepresentation between our perception and theirs: we can hurl anything we want, yet it doesn't reach Muslims for a minute, kafirs (all of us) are barking at the wrong tree, charging the wrong hill even with the most formidable will...

You may think you've proven the Koran wrong, or some verses... it really comes down to argue against the American Constitution !

Let us say you argue that men are created unequally and come with a thousand examples to underline your point. This will not change an iota to the Declaration stating that: ''All men are created equals''. This is not David against Goliath, this is David against a troubled T-Rex !

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them. Their mind-language is totally different from our. The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution. The whole building of Islam is based on that. If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!

A good example for that is how AhmedBahgat behave if you attack his divine book. He'll argue like a lawyer interpreting The Law, from within (never from outside like we do) giving you many related verses to a case. Under critics and attacks, he will dismiss you without recourse. This is like if you were stating that an article of some code of laws is completely flawed, arguing to a policeman that you didn't infringe the law by driving at high speed because there was nobody else on the highway at that time. So you really weren't a danger although you crashed the speed limit by much. The regulations couldn't then apply to you in this case... maybe you were running fast because you were late for an important meeting...

The policeman will react much like AhmetBahgat. He'll think you're a strange silly fellow, write the contravention, and give it to you with a huge smile: you've been dismissed. The Law has been infringed and his job is to punish the guilty. Period. You don't argue against a code of laws. You follow it, contest its accuracy in any given case, show your proves or else troubles are on the way...

It doesn't matter if the Koran is man-made or not, silly or not, or if you want or can reason it out. Lex Dura, Sed Lex.

The West is basically an enemy to Islam because it has different laws, ie. different values.
It wants freedom, while that can't be under The Law. To a Muslim, our notion of freedom is a dead-end... met by fate.

That's why we MUST be knowledgeable in what is The Law according to the Koran, for only then can we construct a valid case.

My second post, coming in some other day, shall deal with this crucial aspect...
Sura 57 is a good starting point to get acquainted with what is this all-encompassing law we're all subjected to...

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:34 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
OK, excellent!!! Here we go. Let's find out just how good your reasoning is for all to see.

The Cat wrote: At the end, it doesn't really matter if it's man-made or not, if some verses appear to us mere nonsense. The Koran and the Islamic jurisprudence are left untouched by all our critics because they come down to blast over let's say the American Constitution.


So you are saying that it doesn't matter if the Quran is the letter for letter dictation to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel or not, it has better laws than other scriptures or even laws that the people themselves decided upon, and therefore it should be followed and should be considered legitimate. RIGHT?? RIGHT?? Please answer the question in a clear, straightforward manner. Thank you. But to no avail, because we both know that you won't, or at least , you won't in a truly honest and straightforward manner.


The Cat wrote:Imams and Mullahs are more akin to our notion of lawyers than they are to our notion of priests. So to deal with the Koran the way we usually do is totally missing the point and so there's a huge misrepresentation between our perception and theirs: we can hurl anything we want, yet it doesn't reach Muslims for a minute, kafirs (all of us) are barking at the wrong tree, charging the wrong hill even with the most formidable will...


And yet when asked to explain specifics that would be open to proper challenge, you cannot or do not provide. If I'm wrong, then do it, and do it without dishonest excuses. Is that fair enough?? Is that clear and straightforward enough?? And, of course, it NEVER will be. I know the game.


The Cat wrote:You may think you've proven the Koran wrong, or some verses... it really comes down to argue against the American Constitution !


:lol: Something that was clearly touted as written by men in the 17th century and the Quran are to be mentioned in the same space??? They are both inventions of men?? So while one is to be believed in, because of clear logic, and the other is to be believed in by "faith" because it is clearly the outdated logic of the 7th century and therefore logic can no longer apply, you think that Islam has any relation to the American Constitution?? Honestly, what is ailing your head?? What is the matter with you?? Do you also have a twitch in your eye?? :lol:

The Cat wrote:Let us say you argue that men are created unequally and come with a thousand examples to underline your point. This will not change an iota to the Declaration stating that: ''All men are created equals''. This is not David against Goliath, this is David against a troubled T-Rex !


???:crazy: :lol: What an absolute moron. I can already see it coming. How you "fancy" yourself to be intelligent, beyond you attempting to use intelligent words, is beyond me. :lol: You are now starting to expose yourself as simply being out of your mind. All it takes are the right questions to expose that, no matter what twisted, invented, veneer you have

The Cat wrote:Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.


Excuse me, clueless moron, but I will not even read the rest of your post until you explain why the entire Quran is written in first person format rather than third person narrative like almost the entire Bible is written in. Gee, you didn't think of THAT, did you you...genius. :lol:

Now explain the clear attempt of the Quran to be first person format, as if it is God speaking himself, letter for letter, directly to people, rather than a narrator retelling what God said and did as was the case of the Bible. Let's go. This is an important crux of the matter in general, so let's put the cards on the table and look at them, shall we?? But, of course, something tells me there will be an excuse. There always is.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:46 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
I just cannot believe the level of insanity that this can be reduced to if that 's what it takes to preserve Islamic faith. This should be a psychology study.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:21 am
by yeezevee
Hi The Cat., with such post as above I wonder whether you are trying to confuse Muslims or confuse the anti-Islamic crowd or confuse the casual readers or confuse yourself?? ...lol..

with best
yeezevee

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:30 am
by yeezevee
Boy., The Cat is hopping around and around to figure out what to do with Quran, Islam and Muslims... Well let me read him backward..

The West is basically an enemy to Islam because it has different laws, ie. different values. It wants freedom, while that can't be under The Law. To a Muslim, our notion of freedom is a dead-end... met by fate.
Why do you say that? What did west do against Islam?? Western folks are only attacking rogues in Islam who use violence to meet their needs. Muslims do like freedom but they want freedom for only males.
That's why we MUST be knowledgeable in what is The Law according to the Koran, for only then can we construct a valid case.
Why worry about that? who cares what laws Quran erected in 7th century? Why not educate Muslims about stupid laws of Islam? But if some laws of Quran are humane and compatible to the present times use it, other wise trash them..

A good example for that is how AhmedBahgat behave if you attack his divine book. He'll argue like a lawyer interpreting The Law, from within (never from outside like we do) giving you many related verses to a case. Under critics and attacks, he will dismiss you without recourse.
Spoiler! :
This is like if you were stating that an article of some code of laws is completely flawed, arguing to a policeman that you didn't infringe the law by driving at high speed because there was nobody else on the highway at that time. So you really weren't a danger although you crashed the speed limit by much. The regulations couldn't then apply to you in this case... maybe you were running fast because you were late for an important meeting...


The policeman will react much like AhmetBahgat. He'll think you're a strange silly fellow,
Spoiler! :
write the contravention, and give it to you with a huge smile: you've been dismissed. The Law has been infringed and his job is to punish the guilty. Period. You don't argue against a code of laws. You follow it, contest its accuracy in any given case, show your proves or else troubles are on the way..
What you are talking dear The Cat?? Why worry about fellows like AhmedBahgat? He is the least worrisome fellow to non-Muslims ., No non-Muslim need to worry about fellows like A_B., In fact Muslims need to worry about that fellow and his rantings. It is funny you compare him with a Policeman .

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.
Who cares what Muslim bums think about people who criticize Quran? it is they who need to learn to critically analyze Quran and if needed modify that damn document.. rules.. laws..Allah words whatever. You should not worry about what they think dear The Cat. You should worry about understanding Quran and explaining Muslims what is wrong with it. or what is right in it.

If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!
That is NONSENSE., what do you mean by "criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail". What do you want join them, marry 4 women, play talaq..talaq game and bend our asses five times a day up in to the sky?? What river are you talking dear The Cat? Build the damn and divert the river waters. That is meaningless analogy. By the way when you are criticizing a concept or person, we don't need to be emotional.

You may think you've proven the Koran wrong, or some verses... it really comes down to argue against the American Constitution !

Let us say you argue that men are created unequally and come with a thousand examples to underline your point. This will not change an iota to the Declaration stating that: ''All men are created equals''. This is not David against Goliath, this is David against a troubled T-Rex !
What American Constitution !? What Islamic constitution ? what are you comparing dear The Cat?

Did you know that American Constitution was amended 20 or more times?? well ask Muslims intellectuals to do that to Quran. Anyways., Dear The Cat., I am not sure what you are trying to do with such thinking but I do agree that Quarn only Muslims is a better way to go as stop gap for Muslims to get over that stupid hadith and its rules. That doesn't mean Quran/Muhammad/Islam escapes criticism.

with best wishes
yeezevee

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:35 am
by The Cat
Ad Hominem is not a valid argument in the sphere of logic.
But I doubt that mbl can get away with this.

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them. Their mind-language is totally different from our. The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution. The whole building of Islam is based on that. If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!

What I've been reading so far is only confirming this point.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:46 am
by crazymonkie_
The Cat, that's just what MBL does. He makes his points (valid, BTW) and then adds his signature phrases. He's entertaining, and he's not taking himself way too seriously, like you are. It's the Internet, not a colloqium or conference. Deal with it.

I also might as well jump on the ol' bandwagon and say that you've lost all credibility with me as well. That probably doesn't mean anything to you, but as someone who really enjoyed your "Muhammad: Myth Versus Reality" thread and has recently watched you degenerate into a repetitive, unreliable speaker of half-truths poorly (at best) researched, it means something to me. This thread makes it much worse.

The Cat wrote:I'll explain why the Koran should be understood like the American Constitution: A code of laws.

Oh boy. Ooooh boy. :nono:

To many Americans, those are held sacred... as if divinely inspired. Here's an Islamic transliteration:

No, not really. Connecting an eighteenth-century Deist document which has as one of its foundational aspects to be changed, to a collection of seventh-century allegedly inflexible rules from the ONE TRUE GOD- from which there are far more portions dealing with fear (of a god, of polytheists, of dissenters and disbelievers, of "the hellfire") and hatred (of dissenters, disbelievers, women, polytheists, others)- is absurd in the extreme. And speaking as a secular-minded American myself, it's borderline stomach-churning to compare the two.

We Allah, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,
promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Koran.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men were equally created by Allah, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, only found when you're at peace with God (Islama).

Don't do that. First of all, the Quran isn't anywhere NEAR the intellectual/philosophical traditions that resulted in the American Constitution; second, in its own time, the majority of nations who learned of the American Constitution were horrified- the overwhelming feeling was toward monarchist governments, of differing types. The idea that "the people" could have that sort of control over their destiny, without a monarch, was frightening. Thirdly, the Constitution was written by human beings, which your little twisting of the preamble makes a mockery of.

We like to think of Islam as an ideology, well it's not quite so.

Uh, yeah, it is. If it wasn't, why would it have all those bits about "faith in the unseen" and the "Last Day" and these mysterious (if we only use the Quran) characters like Nuh and Lut and Musa?

Basically Islam, as it is nowadays, is rather A CODE OF LAWS.

It's got codes of laws tacked onto it because of the gradual build-up of doctrinal interpretation. This does not make ALL of Islam "a code of laws." Just a great deal of it.

We like to give our proofs that it can't be from a God, that is human fabric and to point out its flaws and discuss all over them with indignation. But I think that we miss the most important point about the Koran: as the Islamic sacred book it is essentially a whole code of laws, to which we must add (as it is wrongly) the hadiths, sira and tafsirs. Those and others like Fiqh, act as jurisprudence.

If it's a WHOLE CODE of laws- why have the jurisprudence in the first place? All you'd need to do is go straight to "the Book." And if that's ALL the Quran is- why all the stuff about whom/when to fight, about faith, about the Last Day, and so on? And what has all this to do with an avowedly secular document from the eighteenth century?

So we're still and always within a legal procedure. When we deal with it as we do, we fail to understand what we're dealing with. At the end, it doesn't really matter if it's man-made or not, if some verses appear to us mere nonsense. The Koran and the Islamic jurisprudence are left untouched by all our critics because they come down to blast over let's say the American Constitution.

No, it's really not just a code of laws. YOU are failing to understand what you're looking at, and blatantly abusing the ideas behind the Constitution in doing so.

As to the Quran being untouched: The claim is that it is the word for word dictation of a god, for all time and without error. If we can prove one of these incorrect (we can), the entire system falls. And this is possible because, despite what you're saying here, the Quran is MORE than just a set of law codes.

Imams and Mullahs are more akin to our notion of lawyers than they are to our notion of priests.

They have the social roles of both. That doesn't mean that they ARE lawyers qua lawyers, any more than they are essentially local political leaders qua local political leaders. There just never has been an understanding of Imams and Mullahs as anything other than all the roles at the same time.

So to deal with the Koran the way we usually do is totally missing the point and so there's a huge misrepresentation between our perception and theirs: we can hurl anything we want, yet it doesn't reach Muslims for a minute, kafirs (all of us) are barking at the wrong tree, charging the wrong hill even with the most formidable will...

You've failed to show how. So have the Muslims on this site- and they're supposed to be some of the smarter ones. All they do is claim we haven't shown the Quran to be in error; you're complicating matters by making it seem (incorrectly) that the Quran is ONLY a legal document. Which it is not, SO CLEARLY. All that Muslims can do is come up with some technical, piddling detail that doesn't really make their case; all you can do (apparently) is conflate a secular document that within its internal system allows (even encourages) change, with what is very obviously a religious, and inflexible, document with a few legal and moral matters discussed in it.

You may think you've proven the Koran wrong, or some verses... it really comes down to argue against the American Constitution !

This should be interesting.

Let us say you argue that men are created unequally and come with a thousand examples to underline your point. This will not change an iota to the Declaration stating that: ''All men are created equals''. This is not David against Goliath, this is David against a troubled T-Rex !

Right, but here's the thing: The Constitution (and those who wrote it) acknowledged its imperfections and knew that the laws within it would need to be changed. That part is in the preamble, not even DEALING with the laws- it's a philosophical statement setting up certain premises which the Constitution guarantees to discuss and to uphold. It's not a statement of fact, it's not a law, it's an ideal. So YOU are barking up the wrong tree.

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

Yeeeaaah, aaaaaaaand?

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them.

What approach? Talking about the Quran as a religious AND legal document? I'd say you're on the wrong side of this argument, The Cat.

Their mind-language is totally different from our.

Agreed, totally.

The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution.

It is not JUST "the Law", because it has statements of religious belief and allusions to Torah and NT stories and historical events as well as moral or legal injunctions. But even as "the Law", as a stand-alone system, the Quran fails. Hence the schools of jurisprudence (working from the same source, in the same languages- usually- and yet coming to different conclusions). It is NOT the "Islamic Constitution" because it is MORE than the equivalent of the American Constitution, yet less at the same time and for different reasons. It is more because it is a religious AND legal document; less because it is a very thin and incomplete legal document compared to the American Constitution.

It is above criticism because it MUST be right. The American Constitution, on the other hand, is open to revision, even radical revision. You do know, for instance, that the US used to have slaves, right? And then there was the issue of banning alcohol (Islamic countries, take note- it just empowers the criminal element), and the ongoing debates over the right to bear (fire)arms. All without recourse to a specific god. And without threats against waverers and invective against non-believers (Commies, I guess, in that case?) For Muslims, the Quran must be right, and they use any intellectual argument (honest or not, justified or unjustified) to prove to themselves that it is right. And they prove it to themselves. Is there a similar attitude to the American Constitution with Americans? Not at all. The idea that the Constitution can be changed is, in fact, touted as a source of its strength. The same sort of Muslim inflexibility you're trying to project onto Americans with regards to their foundational legal texts is incorrect. They are not similar, in the least.

The whole building of Islam is based on that. If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!

But the Quran is not JUST a legal document. To say so is dishonest and will lead the contra Islam arguers down an incorrect path from which Muslims can easily extricate themselves in an argument. And your base of comparison is.... know what, I was going to type "faulty," but that's not sufficient. Disgustingly fallacious. There, that's better.

A good example for that is how AhmedBahgat behave if you attack his divine book. He'll argue like a lawyer interpreting The Law, from within (never from outside like we do) giving you many related verses to a case.

He'll also try to argue like a theologian. Or did his many posts with his "big friendly blue letter" Arabic/his translation of Quran posts about "faith in the unseen" just disappear? [checks user profile] Nope. Still there.

Under critics and attacks, he will dismiss you without recourse.

Of course he will. That's because he's learned from somewhere that simply ignoring problems (for him) makes them go away. That's actually quite the opposite of a lawyer. A lawyer will argue the same point, even if they KNOW it's wrong, till the very end. They stick with their lies and half-truths, and in fact promulgate them publicly whenever possible. A_B just flees from it in the form of "Dismissals."

This is like if you were stating that an article of some code of laws is completely flawed, arguing to a policeman that you didn't infringe the law by driving at high speed because there was nobody else on the highway at that time. So you really weren't a danger although you crashed the speed limit by much. The regulations couldn't then apply to you in this case... maybe you were running fast because you were late for an important meeting...

Nah, it's not like that at all. The Quran has a great deal of religious statements in it. To say it's a legal document, and further, to make A_B seem like some sort of amateur lawyer, is nonsense. He's not an enforcer; he's not even an interpreter in reality. Although in his safe-as-houses Australian life, he can pretend to be both.

The policeman will react much like AhmetBahgat.

Difference being: The policeman is actually imbued with the social power to actually do something legally binding and based on the principles in the laws.

Laws.

Not interpretations of laws. Not "books of law with religious parts in them" (so far I can only think of the Quran as an example of that).

A_B just wishes he were.

He'll think you're a strange silly fellow, write the contravention, and give it to you with a huge smile: you've been dismissed. The Law has been infringed and his job is to punish the guilty. Period. You don't argue against a code of laws. You follow it, contest its accuracy in any given case, show your proves or else troubles are on the way...

Again, he is not an arbiter, he is not a judge, he is not an interpreter. He's nothing more than a dilettante, an amateur extreme.

It doesn't matter if the Koran is man-made or not, silly or not, or if you want or can reason it out. Lex Dura, Sed Lex.

Ooooh yes it does. It's central to A_B's every argument that the Quran must be error free because it is the direct dictation of a god. What you're doing here? Pure lies. WHY, I can't figure it out.

The West is basically an enemy to Islam because it has different laws, ie. different values.

.... Including secular ones, as inscribed in documents such as

(wait for it)

(waaaaaaaaait for iiiiiitttt)

THE CONSTITUTION

Putz.

It wants freedom, while that can't be under The Law. To a Muslim, our notion of freedom is a dead-end... met by fate.

Unless they're talking about the necessity of Allah as judge, the idea of divine justice, and human "free will" in such schemes. THEN it matters. Other times? Submit, submit, submit.

That's why we MUST be knowledgeable in what is The Law according to the Koran, for only then can we construct a valid case.

Certainly, we must understand Islamic jurisprudence. But to say that the Quran is a document akin to the American Constitution because the latter mentions a non-specific deity in the preamble is laughable.

Sura 57 is a good starting point to get acquainted with what is this all-encompassing law we're all subjected to...

It's also got lots of religious statements in it. So it undermines your case, even though it's supposed to be the strongest of your evidence.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:52 am
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:Ad Hominem is not a valid argument in the sphere of logic.
Bu of t I doubt that mbl can get away with this.

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them. Their mind-language is totally different from our. The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution. The whole building of Islam is based on that. If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!

What I've been reading so far is only confirming this point.


I believe you are sort of right, the Quran is a law, and I am a law enforcer, but I will only enforce it upon those who claim to believe in it from among the Mushrik Muslims; as for those who dont believe in it from among the kafirs, they will be dismissed, because for them is their religion, and for me is mine. But we still can live peaceful on that basis, now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Salam

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:02 am
by crazymonkie_
AhmedBahgat wrote:for them is their religion, and for me is mine.

What about no religion? What about religions that subsume other religions like Islam into themselves?

But we still can live peaceful on that basis,

I have no doubt that you live this.

now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Errrrrr.... yeaaah. Old law. Hrm. Depends on if you're talking about a teeny-tiny section of the Earth which has been subject to social/political/cultural upheavals since even before people started writing it down, or if you can look to broader historical trends. That was one religion, some of whose beliefs were used by later religions claiming continuity from them. It's so parochial to even refer to it.

And let's be honest here: You don't just go for equivalent counter-attacks. You exceed the original parameters of the discussion. You're PROUD of it ("Slam Dunks"). So don't act like it's an equivalent thing, because it is not.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:06 am
by Wootah
AhmedBahgat wrote:I believe you are sort of right, the Quran is a law, and I am a law enforcer, but I will only enforce it upon those who claim to believe in it from among the Mushrik Muslims; as for those who dont believe in it from among the kafirs, they will be dismissed, because for them is their religion, and for me is mine. But we still can live peaceful on that basis, now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Salam


Except AB you think our existence is an attack on your religion. You will be judged by the law. I only hope you seek Jesus and choose a better path. You understand so well that the law is important and that we will all fail and be judged and found wanting by the law. Then you will claim Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary. If he allows bad people into heaven then he is not good. Why can't you engage the logic? Jesus is the only way.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:08 am
by AhmedBahgat
crazymonkie_ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:for them is their religion, and for me is mine.

What about no religion?


Well, no religion can be considered another religion.

crazymonkie_ wrote: What about religions that subsume other religions like Islam into themselves?


Well tough luck to them, if that is how the religion is sent. Now they dont need to follow Islam, if Islam was sent to correct their flaws like the message of Islam to the Jews and the Christians and even the Athiests, then they have only two options, accept or reject. And if they reject, then they cannot attack.

But we still can live peaceful on that basis,

crazymonkie_ wrote:I have no doubt that you live this.


And that was enough for me to dismiss your crap, you are talking from your arse again.

crazymonkie_ wrote:
now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Errrrrr.... yeaaah. Old law. Hrm. Depends on if you're talking about a teeny-tiny section of the Earth which has been subject to social/political/cultural upheavals since even before people started writing it down, or if you can look to broader historical trends. That was one religion, some of whose beliefs were used by later religions claiming continuity from them. It's so parochial to even refer to it.

And let's be honest here: You don't just go for equivalent counter-attacks. You exceed the original parameters of the discussion. You're PROUD of it ("Slam Dunks"). So don't act like it's an equivalent thing, because it is not.


Image

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:09 am
by Wootah
Cat I agree. Islam is not a religion but is sharia.

I really hope people realise that Islam is the fulfillment of Secularism. It is Atheism codified.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:10 am
by AhmedBahgat
Wootah wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:I believe you are sort of right, the Quran is a law, and I am a law enforcer, but I will only enforce it upon those who claim to believe in it from among the Mushrik Muslims; as for those who dont believe in it from among the kafirs, they will be dismissed, because for them is their religion, and for me is mine. But we still can live peaceful on that basis, now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Salam


Except AB you think our existence is an attack on your religion. You will be judged by the law. I only hope you seek Jesus and choose a better path. You understand so well that the law is important and that we will all fail and be judged and found wanting by the law. Then you will claim Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary. If he allows bad people into heaven then he is not good. Why can't you engage the logic? Jesus is the only way.


Excuse me sir, this post is Cat's post, try to reply to him and forget about me

I only fukin relied because he mentioned me, otherwise I would have not replied.

You are dismissed

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:15 am
by Wootah
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Wootah wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:I believe you are sort of right, the Quran is a law, and I am a law enforcer, but I will only enforce it upon those who claim to believe in it from among the Mushrik Muslims; as for those who dont believe in it from among the kafirs, they will be dismissed, because for them is their religion, and for me is mine. But we still can live peaceful on that basis, now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Salam


Except AB you think our existence is an attack on your religion. You will be judged by the law. I only hope you seek Jesus and choose a better path. You understand so well that the law is important and that we will all fail and be judged and found wanting by the law. Then you will claim Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary. If he allows bad people into heaven then he is not good. Why can't you engage the logic? Jesus is the only way.


Excuse me sir, this post is Cat's post, try to reply to him and forget about me

I only fukin relied because he mentioned me, otherwise I would have not replied.

You are dismissed


Oh. I thought you participated in this forum. Why can't you face the issues?
- If Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary.
- If Allah allows bad people into heaven then he is not good.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:18 am
by AhmedBahgat
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Wootah wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:I believe you are sort of right, the Quran is a law, and I am a law enforcer, but I will only enforce it upon those who claim to believe in it from among the Mushrik Muslims; as for those who dont believe in it from among the kafirs, they will be dismissed, because for them is their religion, and for me is mine. But we still can live peaceful on that basis, now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Salam


Except AB you think our existence is an attack on your religion. You will be judged by the law. I only hope you seek Jesus and choose a better path. You understand so well that the law is important and that we will all fail and be judged and found wanting by the law. Then you will claim Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary. If he allows bad people into heaven then he is not good. Why can't you engage the logic? Jesus is the only way.


Excuse me sir, this post is Cat's post, try to reply to him and forget about me

I only fukin relied because he mentioned me, otherwise I would have not replied.

You are dismissed


Wootah wrote:Oh. I thought you participated in this forum. Why can't you face the issues?
- If Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary.
- If Allah allows bad people into heaven then he is not good.


If I choose to face the issue, I will let your own bible proves to everyone that Jesus is not god nor the son of god nor he died for the sake of the sinful

Dare to do it, open a new thread and show me how Jesus is the way.

Yeh, taking Jesus as a god must be the way to hell.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:26 am
by Wootah
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Wootah wrote:Oh. I thought you participated in this forum. Why can't you face the issues?
- If Allah is merciful but if he is merciful to only some then he is arbitrary.
- If Allah allows bad people into heaven then he is not good.


If I choose to face the issue, I will let your own bible proves to everyone that Jesus is not god nor the son of god nor he died for the sake of the sinful

Dare to do it, open a new thread and show me how Jesus is the way.

Yeh, taking Jesus as a god must be the way to hell.


Focus on the issues I am posing to you AB. Quieten your mind for a while and try later. Say to yourself, "Allah if you are real then I can face these questions without any fear." Then examine them again.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:50 am
by skynightblaze
The Cat wrote:Ad Hominem is not a valid argument in the sphere of logic.
But I doubt that mbl can get away with this.

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them. Their mind-language is totally different from our. The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution. The whole building of Islam is based on that. If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!

What I've been reading so far is only confirming this point.


Boy o boy what a load of gibberish! Basically CAt wants to appease muslims.Well we are not here to appease anyone here. If your belief is problematic and causing hell lot of problems you are bound to get the stick for what you believe in! Its plain common sense and thats how world works! Btw the fact that there have been many apostates after attacking islam is a proof that this approach is correct.

I cant believe that I would be required to see such kind of posts made at FFI by a one who claims himself as a non muslim.

Islam is like a constitution of America? All the Americans would CAt as a threat if he thinks that islam is anywhere near to free country of America which has values far more superior than quran.Americans are bound to be pissed off with such people.

Islam is a threat to mankind and it shouldnt be respected and it should be eliminated completely from its root!Every single islamic book needs to be thrown out of the window! Anyone who thinks that islam should be allowed to stay is a complete moron and absolutely stupid!

Btw when CAT says that we should attack islam from within. What does he mean by that ? Does he mean that we should make muslims reject hadiths by showing them that quran forbids the hadiths? CAt or anyone can you please clarify what he means by attacking islam from within?

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:57 am
by skynightblaze
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I just cannot believe the level of insanity that this can be reduced to if that 's what it takes to preserve Islamic faith. This should be a psychology study.


The comparison of islamic faith to American constitution is most stupid argument on planet that anyone can make especially knowing after what islam stands for!

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:37 am
by zamie
MR cat, i suppose you've never heard of the french revolution. [url](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_revolution)[/url]

When the laws under which you are force to live are retarded, the people will rebel , and they will criticise it. Btw, i have already shown the illogic of sharia law, perhaps you should reply to this thread. (http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8244)

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:38 am
by AhmedBahgat
zamie wrote:MR cat, i suppose you've never heard of the french revolution. [url](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_revolution)[/url]

When the laws under which you are force to live are retarded, the people will rebel , and they will criticise it. Btw, i have already shown the illogic of sharia law, perhaps you should reply to this thread. (http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8244)


zanie, why you sound like realpest?