Allah as Law: The Law!

[The Cat]

The Koran is AGAINST the man-made Shariah concocted from the hadiths.

Thus about 90% of all Islamic laws falls like the Berlin Wall in sea of dust !

Maybe some fine day, you'll catch it on. In the meantime the caravan goes...

[crazymonkie_]

I didn't say the majority of Islamic law falls with the ahadith. In fact I entirely agree with your points, raised elsewhere, that getting rid of the ahadith is a GOOD thing.

But, it's not enough, and it still leaves very dangerous interpretations open in the Quran.

What I REALLY disagree with is your continued insistence that secular laws and the laws in the Quran are equivalent. They are not, never were, and never will be. You're still totally wrong about the nature of the Quran as a collection of laws akin to secular constitutions. That's the problem.

Further, you're muddying the issue when you say that we as non-Muslims need to engage Islam according to its own framework, yet refuse to acknowledge the religious character of the Quran (and its subsequent legitimacy based upon its status as "words of a god")- which is really not approaching Islam within its own framework at all. Not even for Quran-only Muslims. THAT is where I take serious issue.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

I didn't say the majority of Islamic law falls with the ahadith. In fact I entirely agree with your points, raised elsewhere, that getting rid of the ahadith is a GOOD thing.

But, it's not enough, and it still leaves very dangerous interpretations open in the Quran.

I already raised that point and he avoids it.

[The Cat]

you're muddying the issue when you say that we as non-Muslims need to engage Islam according to its own framework, yet refuse to acknowledge the religious character of the Quran (and its subsequent legitimacy based upon its status as "words of a god")- which is really not approaching Islam within its own framework at all. Not even for Quran-only Muslims. THAT is where I take serious issue.

You're plainly misreading once again. I do NOT recognize the Koranic legitimacy upon the fact that it's 'the words of God'. I've maintained,
and this time again, that its legitimacy comes from the people, the Muslims, which is why it must be hold as a our secular constitutions.

A Constitution are the moral precepts by which all laws should be followed in spirit. Such is the Koran!

Only the Koran has this spirit and, by this very spirit, burns down the hadiths to dust, including the dreadful Shariah!

But you say: ''This ain't enough, it still leaves very dangerous interpretations open in the Quran.''
Well this has still to be proven for the dangerous interpretations mainly comes from the hadiths.

Your frontal attack on Islam has not a chance on a billion.
My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.

[Wootah]

My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.

Except you lose all access to God and only idolise laws.

[The Cat]

My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.

Except you lose all access to God and only idolise laws.

Noops.

For Abraham was without any codebook of laws (except those of Noah's),
yet a perfected Muslim whom example was to be followed by the faithful.

It was he (and not Muhammad) that Allah appointed as The leader for all mankind (imamaan)

2.124:
And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a *leader
for mankind* ('Imāmāan). (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

And it was to him and Noah that Allah formerly commanded the only Shariah recognized in the Koran:

42:13 He hath ordained (Shara'a) for you that religion (Lakum Mina Ad-Dīni) which He commended unto Noah,
and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus,
saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them....

[Brendalee]

Only the Koran has this spirit and, by this very spirit, burns down the hadiths to dust, including the dreadful Shariah!

Yet it is the Quran the jihadis cite.

Minority theories have had over 1400 years to affect Islam. None of them have harmed violent Islam in the slightest. I think such theories never will, and the more intellectual a theory is, the less chance it has.

I know I will never change your stance. You certainly will not change mine as I do not believe your theories will have any effect whatsoever in penetrating mainstream Sunni/Shia Islam. And, even if I was wrong, and they did...it would require far more time than I think we have. I would sooner spend my time dealing with the present than looking towards some pipe-dream which "might" (not my view) happen in a few centuries. The Islamic Establishment has far too much vested interest in keeping absolute power over the Muslim masses. They will always have braindead followers ready to kill to preserve it.

[The Cat]

Only the Koran has this spirit and, by this very spirit, burns down the hadiths to dust, including the dreadful Shariah!

Yet it is the Quran the jihadis cite.

I didn't know the Jihadis were all about burning down the hadiths to dust! But that's a Koranic call...

The Islamic Establishment has far too much vested interest in keeping absolute power over the Muslim masses.
They will always have braindead followers ready to kill to preserve it.

Muhammadans are professing the Cult of Muhammad, altering the context & content, which the Koran steadily disapproves harshly:

17.46-47:
And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of
thy Lord in the Qur'an alone* (Rabbaka Fī Al-Qur'āni Waĥdahu), they turn their backs in aversion. ---We are Best Aware of what they
wish to hear when they give ear to thee and when they take secret counsel, when the evil-doers say: Ye follow but a man bewitched.

*note: wrongly translated by ''thy Lord alone in the Qur'an'', while 'wahdahu' is rather written AFTER al-Qur'ani.

So by learning more about it, as this thread suggest, we become way better equipped to fight Muhammadans.

By frontally attacking Islam, you'll only succeed in uniting ALL of them + all a huge majority against you.
Now, if you absolutely want to make them look as martyrs, that's your thing. It doesn't work that way...

[Brendalee]

By refusing to address the immediate threat, Cat, are you not just deferring any action for the next few centuries?

What you forget, perhaps, is that Islam is religious doctrine - which people hold very fiecely to. This is unlike Christianity or even Judaism. The Quran does not contain any mechanism to allow for change.

If you produce archaological evidence, they will say: The Kaffirs are trying to destroy our religion. They are in league with the Zionists and this evidence is false; manufactured; tampered with. Praise Allah! Did not the Quran tell us they would never be satisfied until they could take us from our faith?

Sorry, my friend. We will never see eye to eye on this.

[The Cat]

By refusing to address the immediate threat, Cat, are you not just deferring any action for the next few centuries?

What you forget, perhaps, is that Islam is religious doctrine - which people hold very fiecely to. This is unlike Christianity or even Judaism. The Quran does not contain any mechanism to allow for change.

If you produce archaological evidence, they will say: The Kaffirs are trying to destroy our religion.

Again, what is the Koranic meaning of 'religion' ? Is it what's uphold nowadays? See what I mean...

For the Muhammadans, Koraners are kafirs (vice-versa); to the Talibans, most Muslims are kafirs (vice-versa), etc, etc.

By the end of the day, you find out that the whole Islamic world is made of Kafirs and sinful Mushriks!

[Brendalee]

Ah another case of cartoonophobia! Thanks!

I do understand what you are saying. But you presume you are going to change their mindset, and I don't believe you can. At least not in numbers large enough to make any difference.

Look at it this way: You know that the Nazi regime only lasted for less than 2 decades! (And the alles still had to set up de-nazification programmed in an occupied Germany in order to battle the ideology) If you had a time machine and could go back to Berlin in 1932, and you met a group of Jews, how would you advise them?

Would you say: Look, find the holes in the eugenics theory because this is what they base their ideology on. Debate and argue against this eugenics thing and it will pull the rug from under the whole mess!

Or would you tell them: You think you have time. You have no time. You must understand the danger! I am here to warn you! Look what is happening around you! This is going to get worse - VERY much worse! Please listen to me! You must be aware! You cannot save yourself unless you understand the danger you are in!

You see, I would take the second option. I might save a life if even one person heeded my warning. If they were advised to carry out the first option, they would waste the little time they had left.

It's all well and good if a Muslim leaves Islam or switches to a tiny sect (which has no capacity to be dangerous just because it is too small anyway). But that is not why I joined FFI. I came to help counterbalance the vast PR machine of Mainstream/Traditional Islam. I joined to convince NON-Muslims that they face a very real threat. The worst thing one can do in a house fire is NOT wake up.

[Wootah]

My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.

Except you lose all access to God and only idolise laws.

Noops.

For Abraham was without any codebook of laws (except those of Noah's),
yet a perfected Muslim whom example was to be followed by the faithful.

It was he (and not Muhammad) that Allah appointed as The leader for all mankind (imamaan)

2.124:
And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a *leader
for mankind* ('Imāmāan). (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

And it was to him and Noah that Allah formerly commanded the only Shariah recognized in the Koran:

42:13 He hath ordained (Shara'a) for you that religion (Lakum Mina Ad-Dīni) which He commended unto Noah,
and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus,
saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them....

So he had a code book of laws to follow (Noahs) and you quoted Allah saying he followed Allah's commands. According to you he was perfectly sharia compliant and so we can conclude that he worshiped laws, he idolised them and you do to. Look at the thread title. Look at your behaviour.

[The Cat]

So he had a code book of laws to follow (Noahs) and you quoted Allah saying he followed Allah's commands. According to you he was perfectly sharia compliant and so we can conclude that he worshiped laws, he idolised them and you do to.

Do you worship the laws of your country? If you adhere to the Principle of the Golden Rule, does it means you're worshiping it?

Now what were these Noachide laws? The seventh and last is the requirement to have just laws. If you adhere to this Principle,
does it mean you're worshiping it? The first of Noah's is the prohibition of Idolatry. Do you think Noah idolized non-idolatry?

It is said that the American people abide by the rule of laws (not of men). Do you think they then worship them?

Is it with this kind of petty sophism that you're debating Muslims?

Look at the thread title. Look at your behaviour.

What about it?

Is the actual Islamic Shariah conform to the Koranic injunctions about it? That's the thread! You should read it back again...

[Wootah]

Cat.

Yes I do think secularists end up idolizing/worshiping laws. The lawyer is the priest. They have no other means of relating to each other. The Socialist/Islamic love affair has it's roots in the recognition that without God only laws exist.

Is it with this kind of petty sophism that you're debating Muslims?

I don't know how else how to make your actions self-evident. You directly deny that you are not idolising laws and yet your every argument is Allah is law.

This is cut and paste from another forum, I have highlighted the key part for me:

Here is a quote from Ali; the 4th Caliph of Islam & cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad(pbuh):
Quote:

To know God is to know his oneness. To say that God is one has four meanings: two of them are false and two are correct. As for the two meaning that are false, one is that a person should say "God is one" and be thinking of number and counting. This is false because that which has no second cannot enter into the category of number. Do you not see that those who say that God is a third of a trinity fall into this infidelity? Another meaning is to say, "So-and-So is one of his people," namely, a species of this genus or a member of this species. This meaning is also false when applied to God, because it implies likening something to God, whereas God is above all likeness. As to the two meaning that are correct when applied to God, one is that it should be said that "God is one" in the sense that there is no likeness to him among things. Another is to say that "God is one" in the sense that there is no multiplicity or division conceivable in Him, neither outwardly, nor in the mind, nor in the imagination. God alone possesses such a unity.

That sums up the Islamic view of God.

I don't know what you believe but I do know that nearly all Muslims argue that God is inconceivable. So I do realise that for you the only access to God is through the Koran. This is why you build your faith on the laws of the Koran. But you don't seem to recognise that if God is inconceivable then the Koran logically bears no relationship to God. Your theological position is that you don't know God.

[The Cat]

Yes I do think secularists end up idolizing/worshiping laws. The lawyer is the priest. They have no other means of relating to each other. The Socialist/Islamic love affair has it's roots in the recognition that without God only laws exist.

Another petty sophism of yours. The rule of law is in contrast to a sovereign or god being above the law.
So everyone is equal under the law. According to your 'logic' lawyers are but worshiping driver's license...!

As per the Koranic two fundamental laws: one is to obey the cosmic order (Din/Dharma) and no one is to obey unjust law (Noah's 7th law).
So Abraham was a perfected Muslim without having nothing else to abide to than his conscience: no Torah, Gospel or Koran did he need...

13.14: Unto Him is the real prayer. Those unto whom they pray beside Allah respond to them not at all...

13:31 Had it been possible for a Lecture to cause the mountains to move, or the earth to be torn asunder,
or the dead to speak, (this Qur'an would have done so). Nay, but Allah's is the whole command....

Cultural differences in rituals are of no importance
(Least the ignominies set by the Islamic Pharisees).

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error.

2:263 A kind word with forgiveness is better than almsgiving followed by injury.

22:67 Unto each nation have We given sacred rites which they are to perform;
so let them not dispute with thee of the matter...

2:142 The foolish of the people will say: What hath turned them from the qiblah
which they formerly observed ? Say: Unto Allah belong the East and the West.

Qiblah has been wrongly understood as meaning directions, while it means DIRECTIVES for: Unto Allah belong all directions !
There is no 'qiblah' in 2.256 (where 'direction' is mentioned): Lā 'Ikrāha Fī Ad-Dīni Qad Tabayyana Ar-Rushdu......

You directly deny that you are not idolising laws and yet your every argument is Allah is law.

The thread is called Allah -AS- laws, not Allah is law... And it's most certainly NOT about me. Read it back again:

Opening post
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8268
Istihan, Ishtilah and negative liberty.
viewtopic.php?p=130503#p130503
The Din as the Hindu Rta/Dharma, Islam as SLM; the Koranic Muslims
viewtopic.php?p=131600#p131600
The proper Millata of Abraham: the Islamic Shariah
viewtopic.php?p=131945#p131945
Allah's laws
viewtopic.php?p=131963#p131963

I don't know what you believe but I do know that nearly all Muslims argue that God is inconceivable. So I do realise that for you the only access to God is through the Koran. This is why you build your faith on the laws of the Koran. But you don't seem to recognise that if God is inconceivable then the Koran logically bears no relationship to God. Your theological position is that you don't know God.

Aren't you confusing me and Abu Abdur Rahman with whom you had discussions over this topic?
viewtopic.php?p=133777#p133777

Where did you possibly get that I build MY FAITH on the laws of the Koran? Have your mind straighten... this once again!
Gal.5.14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. That's my LAW !

God is misconceived through human vanities of all kinds, the things of our discursive separativeness but That we call God is easily
discerned by the heart for it is: ''That by which opposites co-exist'' (Nicolas of Cusa), the eternity of the present time NOW BEING !

All inclusive: That without opposite, the Qi, the Tao.


If God is inconceivable than all religious feelings are impostures. But what about this Hindu prayer?

O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations:
--Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
--Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;
--Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations.

In the Koran this is called humbling oneself, which is the root for the Arabic Sujud-Masjid (SJD), falsely translated 'prostration':
13:15 And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth,
willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours.

It's clear to me that Muslims don't even understand their own holy book, let alone the Shariah prescribed therein!

[Wootah]

Another petty sophism of yours. The rule of law is in contrast to a sovereign or god being above the law.
So everyone is equal under the law. According to your 'logic' lawyers are but worshiping driver's license...!

Obviously not Cat. Let's try another line of argument to get you to see. Do you believe that people can worship money? Do you believe that an idol can be the latest fashions or trying to keep up with the latest trends? Do you think youth or beauty are worshiped by women and men as evidenced by the vast cosmetic, plastic surgery industries? You see I never think that there is someone really bowing down to money or society or materialism but when you look at their lives from an understanding of we are what we worship I do see an unhealthy dependence.

Do I think you worship the law? Of course I don't think you are bowing down to law 3.6.4 of code D but nor do I think a materialist bows down to an atom or their car or home and prays to them. But I do think they spend a lot of time focussing on those things and not focusing on God. So can you even admit that worshiping the law is possible?

You directly deny that you are not idolising laws and yet your every argument is Allah is law.

The thread is called Allah -AS- laws, not Allah is law... And it's most certainly NOT about me. Read it back again:

I've read the thread. as/is - I can easily edit my last post to make it 'as law'. The only thing I notice is that you have only the law to guide you whereas you could have morality through the Holy Spirit guide you. You see we don't need laws to know how to behave.

ren't you confusing me and Abu Abdur Rahman with whom you had discussions over this topic?
viewtopic.php?p=133777#p133777

I know what I post
You and he are connected in that - he knows Allah is inconceivable and that is why you need to use the Koran to find out what to do. His understanding of God directly leads to your worshiping of the law. It would be appreciated if I knew whether the Cat believes God is unknowable/inconceivable or not.

Where did you possibly get that I build MY FAITH on the laws of the Koran? Have your mind straighten... this once again!
Gal.5.14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. That's my LAW !

Honestly I still don't know what you believe. Some of your posts are very damning of Islam, some like this thread very supportive and then this quote of yours makes me think you are a Christian. I do know you provide some of the best content to FFI

God is misconceived through human vanities of all kinds, the things of our discursive separativeness but That we call God is easily
discerned by the heart for it is: ''That by which opposites co-exist'' (Nicolas of Cusa), the eternity of the present time NOW BEING !
All inclusive: That without opposite, the Qi, the Tao.

Sadly I did not understand this. I do not believe in ying/yang. There is good and a corruption of the good. Another topic.

If God is inconceivable than all religious feelings are impostures. But what about this Hindu prayer?

O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations:
--Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
--Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;
--Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations.

I am no Hindu. I personally believe God is very knowable. Apart from the Bible, we are made in His image and the world itself testifies to God such that I can learn about God from life.

Just to add a bit more. I don't understand that prayer. Why not just pray to God rather than make God a riddle. God doesn't care if you don't understand but that you communicate with Him.

In the Koran this is called humbling oneself, which is the root for the Arabic Sujud-Masjid (SJD), falsely translated 'prostration':
13:15 And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth,
willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours.

It's clear to me that Muslims don't even understand their own holy book, let alone the Shariah prescribed therein!

And that is the one thing the world should be thankful for.

I made this post recently but I was thinking of you actually. I do fear you are the second kind of man striving to look profound.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8447

[piscohot]

That's why we MUST be knowledgeable in what is The Law according to the Koran, for only then can we construct a valid case.

My second post, coming in some other day, shall deal with this crucial aspect...
Sura 57 is a good starting point to get acquainted with what is this all-encompassing law we're all subjected to...

did i miss the second post? Or is it still çoming'?

[The Cat]

can you even admit that worshiping the law is possible?

How can one worship some other constrains? Idolatry is much more pervasive than that: It's to worship your own fabrics!
A post of mine, in the old forum, on the topic of idolatry: http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20901

Erich Fromm:
''It is not only pictures in stone and wood that are idols. Words can become idols (...) and God has become an idol for many...''

''Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ''Patriotism'' is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say,
that by ''patriotism'' I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice;
not the loving interest in one's own nation, which is the concern with the nation's spiritual as much as with its material welfare
never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for
one's country which is not part of one's love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.”

So idolatry is also found in the concept of ONE (male) God, by which people worship an exclusive number in an anthropic concept!

Honestly I still don't know what you believe. Some of your posts are very damning of Islam, some like this thread very supportive and then this quote of yours makes me think you are a Christian. I do know you provide some of the best content to FFI

You don't grasp the link. I'm damning the Mullah's Islam. It just happens that the Koran does that too...

God is misconceived through human vanities of all kinds, the things of our discursive separativeness but That we call God is easily
discerned by the heart for it is: ''That by which opposites co-exist'' (Nicolas of Cusa), the eternity of the present time NOW BEING !

All inclusive: That without opposite, the Qi, the Tao.

Sadly I did not understand this. I do not believe in ying/yang. There is good and a corruption of the good.

Things are mainly corrupted by what we think about them or make them. The good as good is incorruptible by definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang
Yin yang are complementary opposites that interact within a greater whole, as part of a dynamic system. Everything has both yin and yang aspects, but either of these aspects may manifest more strongly in particular objects, and may ebb or flow over time.... There is a perception that yin and yang correspond to good and evil (not respectively). However, Taoist philosophy generally discounts good/bad distinctions and other dichotomous moral judgments, in preference to the idea of balance. --So mankind is made of interacting male/female balancing principles...

It's clear to me that Muslims don't even understand their own holy book, let alone the Shariah prescribed therein!

And that is the one thing the world should be thankful for.

Although you've read my posts, you're still clueless about it all. Read AGAIN about the Koranic Shariah!
viewtopic.php?p=131963#p131963
viewtopic.php?p=131945#p131945
viewtopic.php?p=131600#p131600