
Thus about 90% of all Islamic laws falls like the Berlin Wall in sea of dust !

Maybe some fine day, you'll catch it on. In the meantime the caravan goes...

I already raised that point and he avoids it.crazymonkie_ wrote:I didn't say the majority of Islamic law falls with the ahadith. In fact I entirely agree with your points, raised elsewhere, that getting rid of the ahadith is a GOOD thing.
But, it's not enough, and it still leaves very dangerous interpretations open in the Quran.
crazymonkie wrote:you're muddying the issue when you say that we as non-Muslims need to engage Islam according to its own framework, yet refuse to acknowledge the religious character of the Quran (and its subsequent legitimacy based upon its status as "words of a god")- which is really not approaching Islam within its own framework at all. Not even for Quran-only Muslims. THAT is where I take serious issue.
Except you lose all access to God and only idolise laws.The Cat wrote:My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.
Noops.Wootah wrote:Except you lose all access to God and only idolise laws.The Cat wrote:My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.
Yet it is the Quran the jihadis cite.Only the Koran has this spirit and, by this very spirit, burns down the hadiths to dust, including the dreadful Shariah!
I didn't know the Jihadis were all about burning down the hadiths to dust! But that's a Koranic call...Brendalee wrote:Yet it is the Quran the jihadis cite.Only the Koran has this spirit and, by this very spirit, burns down the hadiths to dust, including the dreadful Shariah!
Muhammadans are professing the Cult of Muhammad, altering the context & content, which the Koran steadily disapproves harshly:Brendalee wrote:The Islamic Establishment has far too much vested interest in keeping absolute power over the Muslim masses.
They will always have braindead followers ready to kill to preserve it.
Again, what is the Koranic meaning of 'religion' ? Is it what's uphold nowadays? See what I mean...Brendalee wrote:By refusing to address the immediate threat, Cat, are you not just deferring any action for the next few centuries?
What you forget, perhaps, is that Islam is religious doctrine - which people hold very fiecely to. This is unlike Christianity or even Judaism. The Quran does not contain any mechanism to allow for change.
If you produce archaological evidence, they will say: The Kaffirs are trying to destroy our religion.
So he had a code book of laws to follow (Noahs) and you quoted Allah saying he followed Allah's commands. According to you he was perfectly sharia compliant and so we can conclude that he worshiped laws, he idolised them and you do to. Look at the thread title. Look at your behaviour.The Cat wrote:Noops.Wootah wrote:Except you lose all access to God and only idolise laws.The Cat wrote:My way has Allah standing against... all forms of idolatry.
For Abraham was without any codebook of laws (except those of Noah's),
yet a perfected Muslim whom example was to be followed by the faithful.
It was he (and not Muhammad) that Allah appointed as The leader for all mankind (imamaan)
2.124:
And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a *leader
for mankind* ('Imāmāan). (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.
And it was to him and Noah that Allah formerly commanded the only Shariah recognized in the Koran:
42:13 He hath ordained (Shara'a) for you that religion (Lakum Mina Ad-Dīni) which He commended unto Noah,
and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus,
saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them....
Do you worship the laws of your country? If you adhere to the Principle of the Golden Rule, does it means you're worshiping it? :wacko:Wootah wrote:So he had a code book of laws to follow (Noahs) and you quoted Allah saying he followed Allah's commands. According to you he was perfectly sharia compliant and so we can conclude that he worshiped laws, he idolised them and you do to.
What about it?Wootah wrote:Look at the thread title. Look at your behaviour.
I don't know how else how to make your actions self-evident. You directly deny that you are not idolising laws and yet your every argument is Allah is law.Is it with this kind of petty sophism that you're debating Muslims?
I don't know what you believe but I do know that nearly all Muslims argue that God is inconceivable. So I do realise that for you the only access to God is through the Koran. This is why you build your faith on the laws of the Koran. But you don't seem to recognise that if God is inconceivable then the Koran logically bears no relationship to God. Your theological position is that you don't know God.Here is a quote from Ali; the 4th Caliph of Islam & cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad(pbuh):
Quote:
To know God is to know his oneness. To say that God is one has four meanings: two of them are false and two are correct. As for the two meaning that are false, one is that a person should say "God is one" and be thinking of number and counting. This is false because that which has no second cannot enter into the category of number. Do you not see that those who say that God is a third of a trinity fall into this infidelity? Another meaning is to say, "So-and-So is one of his people," namely, a species of this genus or a member of this species. This meaning is also false when applied to God, because it implies likening something to God, whereas God is above all likeness. As to the two meaning that are correct when applied to God, one is that it should be said that "God is one" in the sense that there is no likeness to him among things. Another is to say that "God is one" in the sense that there is no multiplicity or division conceivable in Him, neither outwardly, nor in the mind, nor in the imagination. God alone possesses such a unity.
That sums up the Islamic view of God.
Another petty sophism of yours. The rule of law is in contrast to a sovereign or god being above the law.Wootah wrote:Yes I do think secularists end up idolizing/worshiping laws. The lawyer is the priest. They have no other means of relating to each other. The Socialist/Islamic love affair has it's roots in the recognition that without God only laws exist.
The thread is called Allah -AS- laws, not Allah is law... And it's most certainly NOT about me. Read it back again:Wootah wrote:You directly deny that you are not idolising laws and yet your every argument is Allah is law.
Aren't you confusing me and Abu Abdur Rahman with whom you had discussions over this topic?Wootah wrote:I don't know what you believe but I do know that nearly all Muslims argue that God is inconceivable. So I do realise that for you the only access to God is through the Koran. This is why you build your faith on the laws of the Koran. But you don't seem to recognise that if God is inconceivable then the Koran logically bears no relationship to God. Your theological position is that you don't know God.
Obviously not Cat. Let's try another line of argument to get you to see. Do you believe that people can worship money? Do you believe that an idol can be the latest fashions or trying to keep up with the latest trends? Do you think youth or beauty are worshiped by women and men as evidenced by the vast cosmetic, plastic surgery industries? You see I never think that there is someone really bowing down to money or society or materialism but when you look at their lives from an understanding of we are what we worship I do see an unhealthy dependence.The Cat wrote:Another petty sophism of yours. The rule of law is in contrast to a sovereign or god being above the law.
So everyone is equal under the law. According to your 'logic' lawyers are but worshiping driver's license...!
The thread is called Allah -AS- laws, not Allah is law... And it's most certainly NOT about me. Read it back again:Wootah wrote:You directly deny that you are not idolising laws and yet your every argument is Allah is law.
I know what I postren't you confusing me and Abu Abdur Rahman with whom you had discussions over this topic?![]()
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Honestly I still don't know what you believe. Some of your posts are very damning of Islam, some like this thread very supportive and then this quote of yours makes me think you are a Christian. I do know you provide some of the best content to FFIWhere did you possibly get that I build MY FAITH on the laws of the Koran? Have your mind straighten... this once again!
Gal.5.14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. That's my LAW !
Sadly I did not understand this. I do not believe in ying/yang. There is good and a corruption of the good. Another topic.God is misconceived through human vanities of all kinds, the things of our discursive separativeness but That we call God is easily
discerned by the heart for it is: ''That by which opposites co-exist'' (Nicolas of Cusa), the eternity of the present time NOW BEING !
All inclusive: That without opposite, the Qi, the Tao.
I am no Hindu. I personally believe God is very knowable. Apart from the Bible, we are made in His image and the world itself testifies to God such that I can learn about God from life.If God is inconceivable than all religious feelings are impostures. But what about this Hindu prayer?
O Lord, forgive three sins that are due to my human limitations:
--Thou art everywhere, but I worship you here;
--Thou art without form, but I worship you in these forms;
--Thou needest no praise, yet I offer you these prayers and salutations.
And that is the one thing the world should be thankful for.In the Koran this is called humbling oneself, which is the root for the Arabic Sujud-Masjid (SJD), falsely translated 'prostration':
13:15 And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth,
willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours.
It's clear to me that Muslims don't even understand their own holy book, let alone the Shariah prescribed therein!
The Cat wrote:That's why we MUST be knowledgeable in what is The Law according to the Koran, for only then can we construct a valid case.
My second post, coming in some other day, shall deal with this crucial aspect...
Sura 57 is a good starting point to get acquainted with what is this all-encompassing law we're all subjected to...
How can one worship some other constrains? Idolatry is much more pervasive than that: It's to worship your own fabrics!Wootah wrote:can you even admit that worshiping the law is possible?
You don't grasp the link. I'm damning the Mullah's Islam. It just happens that the Koran does that too...Wootah wrote:Honestly I still don't know what you believe. Some of your posts are very damning of Islam, some like this thread very supportive and then this quote of yours makes me think you are a Christian. I do know you provide some of the best content to FFI
Things are mainly corrupted by what we think about them or make them. The good as good is incorruptible by definition.Wootah wrote:Sadly I did not understand this. I do not believe in ying/yang. There is good and a corruption of the good.The Cat wrote:God is misconceived through human vanities of all kinds, the things of our discursive separativeness but That we call God is easily
discerned by the heart for it is: ''That by which opposites co-exist'' (Nicolas of Cusa), the eternity of the present time NOW BEING !
All inclusive: That without opposite, the Qi, the Tao.
Although you've read my posts, you're still clueless about it all. Read AGAIN about the Koranic Shariah!Wootah wrote:And that is the one thing the world should be thankful for.The Cat wrote:It's clear to me that Muslims don't even understand their own holy book, let alone the Shariah prescribed therein!