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Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:00 am
by zamie
You can have you sharia law. If i were to become the prime minister of aus i would say..

Ok, all muslims must live by sharia law in it's most religious and strict form, and all kaffir are exempt. Would that please you? Perhaps you might start to regret once your best friend get his hand cut off.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:05 am
by crazymonkie_
AhmedBahgat wrote:Well, no religion can be considered another religion.

It can be, but that would be wrong. Not smoking is not a kind of smoking. Not reading is not a kind of reading.

crazymonkie_ wrote: What about religions that subsume other religions like Islam into themselves?


Well tough luck to them, if that is how the religion is sent.

Sent?

Hinduism is the example I was thinking of in this case. It makes a case for Muhammad as an avatar of a god- but it doesn't claim that it was revealed to be so in the manner that Islam says the Quran was revealed.

Now they dont need to follow Islam, if Islam was sent to correct their flaws like the message of Islam to the Jews and the Christians and even the Athiests, then they have only two options, accept or reject. And if they reject, then they cannot attack.

Atheists don't have a message. There is no categorical totality of "atheist" beyond "a person who does not believe in any gods." They can believe in ghosts, an afterlife, all sorts of things. They are not a group in the same way that Christians or Jews are a group.

Your "they don't need to follow Islam" thing is a red herring. It's irrelevant to the fact of some belief systems being subsumed under others and that the subsumed religion is sometimes Islam.

But we still can live peaceful on that basis,

crazymonkie_ wrote:I have no doubt that you live this.


And that was enough for me to dismiss your crap, you are talking from your arse again.

Oh, how nice of you to return my genuine compliment with an insult.

crazymonkie_ wrote:Errrrrr.... yeaaah. Old law. Hrm. Depends on if you're talking about a teeny-tiny section of the Earth which has been subject to social/political/cultural upheavals since even before people started writing it down, or if you can look to broader historical trends. That was one religion, some of whose beliefs were used by later religions claiming continuity from them. It's so parochial to even refer to it.

And let's be honest here: You don't just go for equivalent counter-attacks. You exceed the original parameters of the discussion. You're PROUD of it ("Slam Dunks"). So don't act like it's an equivalent thing, because it is not.


Image

Yup- I struck a nerve and said some things you can't answer.

Thanks for showing that using bright colors and movement.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:11 am
by crazymonkie_
skynightblaze wrote:Islam is like a constitution of America? All the Americans would CAt as a threat if he thinks that islam is anywhere near to free country of America which has values far more superior than quran.Americans are bound to be pissed off with such people.

That's exactly what an American (me) said. It's disgusting, although I will say that it's at least good to know who to ridicule and debunk. I'd rather have that happen than have a bunch of people giving tacit or direct support to such vile poisonous ideas.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:23 am
by skynightblaze
crazymonkie_ wrote:Sent?
Hinduism is the example I was thinking of in this case. It makes a case for Muhammad as an avatar of a god- but it doesn't claim that it was revealed to be so in the manner that Islam says the Quran was revealed.


Hinduism infact makes a case against Muhammad. The bhavishya purana claims that there would come a demon called muhammad whose followers will grow beards and cause mischief on land leading astray from true religion. Muslims as usual try to find references to muhammad in other books when they are not .This whole story was started by that clown Zakir Naik and since then it has become a norm of muslims to use these arguments to defend muhammad.



crazymonkie_ wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:Islam is like a constitution of America? All the Americans would CAt as a threat if he thinks that islam is anywhere near to free country of America which has values far more superior than quran.Americans are bound to be pissed off with such people.

That's exactly what an American (me) said. It's disgusting, although I will say that it's at least good to know who to ridicule and debunk. I'd rather have that happen than have a bunch of people giving tacit or direct support to such vile poisonous ideas.


I must say this is the least that we could have expected from CAt.An ordinary person who isnt aware of islam can be forgiven for making such statement.This fellow has spent nearly 8-10 years here on FFI . A person who has spent so much of time knowing islam simply cannot make such statements unless he is really out of his mind.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:49 am
by AhmedBahgat
Hello all

I applogise to moneky as I misunderstood his comment, sorry I wrote a lot since I came from work and can hardly see a thing, I believe I read the word 'not' in his comment, as if he was saying that I was not living such peacful Muslim life

anyway, I will later reply to his comments, but I am sure it will be full of crap as usual

time to rest my eyes

Salam

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:51 am
by zamie
Going to sleep so soon mr bagget. Perhaps you may dream up an excuse for why Mose's mother believed in god before moses.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:58 am
by piscohot
AhmedBahgat wrote:Well tough luck to them, if that is how the religion is sent. Now they dont need to follow Islam, if Islam was sent to correct their flaws like the message of Islam to the Jews and the Christians and even the Athiests, then they have only two options, accept or reject. And if they reject, then they cannot attack.


sums up the islamic logic here.

While the quran is free to attack the scriptures (corruption) of jews (pigs and apes) and christians and totally condemned the pagans, you either have to accept their attacks or you are free to ''reject'' the attacks. By 'reject', the muslims meant that they can keep crticising you, your religion, your lives and your fathers, forefathers and all you love while you CANNOT defend yourself by telling them to stop the attacks or by telling them what a stupid religion Islam is.

That would be considered an attack on islam.

you read of the meccans of the past and of how many times they approached Muhammad's uncle to try get Muhammad to keep his mouth shut and not deride the beliefs, custom and ancestors of others.
Ahmed here is saying that the meccans should just suffer in silence.
When they failed to do so and retaliate out of anger and frustration, THAT is an attack on Islam.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:48 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
The Cat wrote:Ad Hominem is not a valid argument in the sphere of logic.


That is nothing but a clearly evasive excuse for the FACT that you cannot explain the contradiction between the Quran clearly being set up as the letter for letter dictation of Allah, and your claim that it need not be seen as that. If the Quran is not the letter for letter dictation of Allah, as you claim that it doesn't need to be, then it automatically becomes a lie, and the whole thing becomes a lie, because it clearly did represent itself as that. You have simply lost your mind at this point. As yeezevee said, you just don't know what to do with the problems in the Quran, so we get to watch these ridiculously insane contortions that you attempt. Why do you need to go so far out on a limb to save Islam?? Who needs it?? I think it's laws are extremely inappropriate in modern times. And, in a western secular country, if people want those laws, they can just tell their legislators to write them. They don't need Islam to write laws in a free democratic society. That's crazy.

The Cat wrote:But I doubt that mbl can get away with this.

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them. Their mind-language is totally different from our. The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution.


Written by who?? Muhammad?? You've already said that we don't need to think of the Quran as written by Allah.

The Cat wrote: The whole building of Islam is based on that.


No, it is based on being the letter for letter dictation of Allah, and you are destroying that entire basis. Nice job. :lol:

The Cat wrote: If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do...


How about simply using solid reasoning?? That alone would be enough. Is that really so hard?? :lol:

The Cat wrote: for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!


Who says it's any law except for that of a 7th century child molesting desert bandit?? How can you be so blind?? He even clearly slips up in 63:4 and you completely ignore it and brush it aside. There really is nothing particularly wise in the Quran that any person couldn't figure out or see for themselves, and there's no depth to it at all. As Osho supposedly commented about the Quran, it seems to have come from an uneducated person and is most nothing more than regular tribal wisdom. He's right. The author displays no depth whatsoever.

The Cat wrote:What I've been reading so far is only confirming this point.
[/quote]

The Quran was written in first person form, therefore you do not have the option of saying it might not be the letter for letter dictation of Allah. And in 63:4, clearly, the ventriloquist accidentally moved his lips while his Allah hand puppet was talking, and he couldn't take it back, because Allah was supposed to have dictated it, and one can't change what Allah supposedly dictated.

I really like where this is all going though. It's part of a wider trend which will lead to the inevitable destruction of Islam. It's absurdities clearly cannot stand up to the 21st century, and therefore it cannot be taken as the truth, only someone's invention. So Muslims now have to reinvent Islam. The first step of the ultimate destruction is the tossing of the hadiths. And who could blame them? They are simply unacceptably absurd and brutal. The next step is to now explain away the errors of the Quran by saying that we no longer have to take it as the letter for letter dictation of Allah. And that is pretty much the beginning of the end for the Quran.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:50 pm
by zamie
Mr cat, you are forgetting one thing that most people have ignored. The reasons that america had its constitution was the result of years and years of fighting, enlightenment, and improvement. Such a thing has not occurred in sharia. Sharai is as it was all those years ago when mo popped his ugly head out of the sand.

The problem with sharia is that it cannot be changed. The constitution can be changed, however i realise that this is very hard to do, but the constitution itself is a result of thousands of years of change, improvement and enlightenment. The koran is not.

Did muhammad even improve the condition in arabia? By this i mean the law? I don't think so. Sharia law is only customs of the pagan arabs mixed together with Judaism and some other religions. So, like the French aristocracy , the koran is still long over due for it's demise.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:59 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
zamie wrote:So, like the French aristocracy , the koran is still long over due for it's demise.


It's already happening. The hadiths are being thrown out because they can't be defended in the 21st century. And next, Cat attempts to repaint the Quran as not necessarily needing to be the exact dictation of Allah. It's inevitable that Islam is going to have to be repainted so much, that it won't even be Islam anymore. And then people will ask, who needs it?? And the whole thing eventually disintegrates. As Muslims children grow up in the west with a proper education in a free thinking society, they are going to see through Islam and they are going to have the freedom to leave it.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:02 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:
The Cat wrote:Ad Hominem is not a valid argument in the sphere of logic.
Bu of t I doubt that mbl can get away with this.

Criticizing the Koran, in the mind of the Muslims, means you're either an outlaw or a kafir. Foreigners are such ignorant kafirs, dumb, blind and deaf so their silliness may be pardonable, that is up to the point of obtuse bad faith. They are not knowledgeable in the Science of the Law.

If we still continue this kind of approach we simply can't reach them. Their mind-language is totally different from our. The Koran is above all criticizing simply because it is The Law, the Islamic Constitution. The whole building of Islam is based on that. If you want to talk their mind-language we must argue from within the law, just like lawyers do... for criticizing it from outside, like we do, is of no avail. Worthless. Emotionals over-reacting. Whipping the river because it merely flows. Contest the law as much as you want, it is still the law!

What I've been reading so far is only confirming this point.


I believe you are sort of right, the Quran is a law, and I am a law enforcer, but I will only enforce it upon those who claim to believe in it from among the Mushrik Muslims; as for those who dont believe in it from among the kafirs, they will be dismissed, because for them is their religion, and for me is mine. But we still can live peaceful on that basis, now to come and start attacking my religion, then it cannot be a case of law enforcing it upon the kafirs, it will be a mere case attack against attack, i.e. an eye for an eye, the old law, you know

Salam


BagHat, the Cat said that it is not necessary to take the Quran as the letter for letter dictation of Allah. Do you agree?? Why did you ignore that part??

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:03 pm
by zamie
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
zamie wrote:So, like the French aristocracy , the koran is still long over due for it's demise.


It's already happening. The hadiths are being thrown out because they can't be defended in the 21st century. And next, Cat attempts to repaint the Quran as not necessarily needing to be the exact dictation of Allah. It's inevitable that Islam is going to have to be repainted so much, that it won't even be Islam anymore. And then people will ask, who needs it?? And the whole thing eventually disintegrates. As Muslims children grow up in the west with a proper education in a free thinking society, they are going to see through Islam and they are going to have the freedom to leave it.


TO really fix this problem, western countries should just leagalise sharia law but only make it applicable to muslims. All kaffir are exempt but all muslims will be forced to adhere to it. I don't think this will last long.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:11 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
zamie wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
zamie wrote:So, like the French aristocracy , the koran is still long over due for it's demise.


It's already happening. The hadiths are being thrown out because they can't be defended in the 21st century. And next, Cat attempts to repaint the Quran as not necessarily needing to be the exact dictation of Allah. It's inevitable that Islam is going to have to be repainted so much, that it won't even be Islam anymore. And then people will ask, who needs it?? And the whole thing eventually disintegrates. As Muslims children grow up in the west with a proper education in a free thinking society, they are going to see through Islam and they are going to have the freedom to leave it.


TO really fix this problem, western countries should just leagalise sharia law but only make it applicable to muslims. All kaffir are exempt but all muslims will be forced to adhere to it. I don't think this will last long.


:lol: Interesting idea. Would I want to go in front of an American judge, or a Sharia judge?? Hmmmmm....... :lol: I think my favorite part of American law was the fact that it seemed to be the first law which said "innocent until proven guilty", and what it really meant was something deeper. It meant that it is better to let 100 guilty men go than it is to convict one innocent man. Before then, it was the opposite. The Quran never seems to address the possibility of false convictions, so it's actually a very incomplete law system.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:14 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
The Cat wrote:In a soon-to-come thread I'll explain why it doesn't matter if the Koran is man-made or not. It'll be named: Allah is Law. Period.


You haven't explained that yet. If the Quran is man made, then it is not God's law. And, clearly the Quran DOES represent itself as God made, not man made.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:20 pm
by Eagle
Wootah wrote:If Allah allows bad people into heaven then he is not good.


But JEsus died for the sins of humanity meaning whether you accept him or not, whether you are Hitler or Staline, you go straight to heaven.
If Hitler accepts Jesus as his "savior", he is saved from his sins and even if he keeps sinning Jesus -whom he accepted as his savior- already died for his sins meaning Hitler will be absolved whether he repents or not.
If Hitler refuses Jesus as his savior, he is still saved since Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, including those who do not know him or even refuse him. To refuse Jesus as a savior is a sin, for which Jesus already died. If you say "no, Jesus' only redeems the sins of those who accept him" (even though sin atonements are only possible for past sins according to your Bible), you are denying that Jesus died for the sins of everyone including non- christians.

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Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:28 pm
by Cassie
I don't think you understand what "Jesus died for our sins" mean. It does not mean that a Christian who keeps on sinning will go to heaven regardless. That is a typically Muslim viewpoint - where a Muslim will end up in Janna no matter what he or she does - so long as he/she keeps on believing in Allah and Muhammad.

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:37 pm
by yeezevee
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:

BagHat, the Cat said that it is not necessary to take the Quran as the letter for letter dictation of Allah. Do you agree?? Why did you ignore that part??
look at that "Muhammad bin Lyin., He is trying his best see the fight/argument between the Cat and AhmedBahgat . Sure he loves to see that happen in ffi lol..

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:45 pm
by yeezevee
Eagle wrote:
Wootah wrote:If Allah allows bad people into heaven then he is not good.


But JEsus died for the sins of humanity meaning whether you accept him or not, whether you are Hitler or Staline, you go straight to heaven.
If Hitler accepts Jesus as his "savior", he is saved from his sins and even if he keeps sinning Jesus -whom he accepted as his savior- already died for his sins meaning Hitler will be absolved whether he repents or not.
If Hitler refuses Jesus as his savior, he is still saved since Jesus died for the sins of all humanity, including those who do not know him or even refuse him. To refuse Jesus as a savior is a sin, for which Jesus already died. If you say "no, Jesus' only redeems the sins of those who accept him" (even though sin atonements are only possible for past sins according to your Bible), you are denying that Jesus died for the sins of everyone including non- christians.


You and millions of Muslim bums can write as much as you like against Jesus Christ(Real or imaginary Figure). When you compare that Christ character with Muhammad you stand no where dear Eagle. .,

Irrespective of whether some believe in Jesus as god..son of god..whatever, what is described about him by early Christians including in Quran is that "He was/is a Good man" Unlike Muhammad where early Muslims depict this guy as "First Rated Criminal" who used Allah to defend his sexual and criminal activities. It is all over Allah book ..'Quran" .

Again Like Jesus (as many people are exploring) the Muhammad of Islam could also be an imaginary character., but..but., still Muhammad of Quran comes out as a criminal Character.. So you fail to insult Christianity . You may insult some Christians and their criminal acts of past but who cares dear Eagle?

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:05 pm
by yeezevee
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
The Cat wrote:In a soon-to-come thread I'll explain why it doesn't matter if the Koran is man-made or not. It'll be named: Allah is Law. Period.


You haven't explained that yet. If the Quran is man made, then it is not God's law. And, clearly the Quran DOES represent itself as God made, not man made.
Well., could it not be possible that in The Cat thinking that "Allah is Not God" hence as The Cat says., it is not God's Law" but Allah Law.., lol..

Re: Allah as Law: The Law!

PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:15 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Eagle wrote:
Wootah wrote:If Allah allows bad people into heaven then he is not good.


But JEsus died for the sins of humanity meaning whether you accept him or not, whether you are Hitler or Staline, you go straight to heaven.


Who told you that?

Eagle wrote:If Hitler accepts Jesus as his "savior", he is saved from his sins and even if he keeps sinning Jesus -whom he accepted as his savior- already died for his sins meaning Hitler will be absolved whether he repents or not.


Who told you that? Jesus' death did not save anybody, it merely made them savable.


Eagle wrote:If Hitler refuses Jesus as his savior, he is still saved since Jesus died for the sins of all humanity,


Again, who told you that?? You have a very poor understanding of Christianity.

Eagle wrote: including those who do not know him or even refuse him. To refuse Jesus as a savior is a sin, for which Jesus already died. If you say "no, Jesus' only redeems the sins of those who accept him" (even though sin atonements are only possible for past sins according to your Bible), you are denying that Jesus died for the sins of everyone including non- christians.


His death made it possible to be saved, but one has to accept Jesus and his sacrifice and live accordingly in order to be saved. Are you forgetting that he spoke of the harvest where the good crop would be gathered and the weeds would be thrown into the fire? But yes, one can sin all of their life, but if they truly repent, they will be forgiven and can always still be saved. As Meister Eckhardt said, it is not by our actions that we will be judged, but by our being.