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A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:06 pm
by Trojan
The famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for "houri," which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means "white raisin."

Mr. Luxenberg has traced the passages dealing with paradise to a Christian text called Hymns of Paradise by a fourth-century author. Mr. Luxenberg said the word paradise was derived from the Aramaic word for garden and all the descriptions of paradise described it as a garden of flowing waters, abundant fruits and white raisins, a prized delicacy in the ancient Near East. In this context, white raisins, mentioned often as hur, Mr. Luxenberg said, makes more sense than a reward of sexual favors.




http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html

So You Decide :

Moist Virgins :drool:


Image


OR

Dried Fruit :x



Image

A Tale of Twist of Fate.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Later that day (Sept. 11, 2001)...... in Paradise, 19 young men stand naked, and uncircumsized before the throne of Allah ...
A loud thundering sound is heard. The men tremble....
Allah Enters, and speaks ........


Allah wrote:Young Men,
emmm ....


Image

Sorry to dissapoint you but your mullahs misinterpreted my holy book........
Under his breath... darn I knew I should've used the English language instead!

I will not permit any sexual orgies here in paradise.
So Here, Now like good little boys, count these 72 crystal white raisins, as promised for each of you ....


Image

ENJOY ! ! !

Thank you for your services

And for heaven's sake put some damn clothes on ......... sheesh ! ! !

I am ....
Allah the Merciful and Benevolent.... for I know best !



Exits

:tongueout:

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:17 am
by Trojan
Let's toss in Robin Williams on the subject for good humor....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osvvTOzzQBE


Enjoy ! ! !

:roflmao:

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:55 am
by piscohot
Allah had made the arabic language so rich in meanings that we know the word 'hur' refers to virgins as well as raisins.

Because Allah anticipated that with 72 virgins demanding your attention, once in a while you would really really wish for some raisins instead.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:28 am
by Aksel Ankersen
كذلك وزوجناهم بحور عين

"As such, We shall wed them to wideeyed houris (the virgins of Paradise)."

-Koran, ad-Dukhan, verse 54


زوج = "join in marriage"

Since the Janatis are married to the huris, it is obvious that the correct translation is white virgins.

Also عين = "wide eyed". No doubt it refers to a human rather than a fruit.

-Aksel

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:29 am
by Pragmatist
piscohot wrote:Allah had made the arabic language so rich in meanings that we know the word 'hur' refers to virgins as well as raisins.

Because Allah anticipated that with 72 virgins demanding your attention, once in a while you would really really wish for some raisins instead.


I think I get the plot now . This guy allah was a smart dude he knew no one apart from the most gullible uneducated fool was going to fall for all his nonsense and the ridiculous paedophile he chose to be his prophet. So what does he do he sends his book down in a Primitive ambiguous language that can be made to say just about anything you want it too. He then sends the verses down completely at random and in no particular order at all with some that are to be taken "literally" and some "allegorically" but neglecting to tell anyone which is which. While at the same time of course insisting that it is "clear and easily understood" just to give us all a laugh. If allah and Old Mo were here today they would be on the Comedy Circuit.


:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:55 am
by Hank Palooka
Mr. Lexemberg also concluded that much of the quran was originally written in Syriac where hur does indeed mean white raisin.
I wonder if muslims are allowed to drink in paradise?

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:05 pm
by Aksel Ankersen
Hank Palooka wrote:Mr. Lexemberg also concluded that much of the quran was originally written in Syriac where hur does indeed mean white raisin.
I wonder if muslims are allowed to drink in paradise?

According to the Koran, they will be given wine in Paradise.

Koran wasn't written in Syriac though. The very common Syriac letter samekh appears nowhere in Koran.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:37 pm
by Hank Palooka
That would be the modern version of the koran.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:45 pm
by Aksel Ankersen
Hank Palooka wrote:That would be the modern version of the koran.

Maybe we should discuss this another time... It doesn't really have anything to do with the huri. :ermm:

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:50 pm
by Hank Palooka
That would be the modern version of the koran.
So how come muslims are not allowed any alcohol down here on Earth? Strange isn't it? Allah will have a hard time controlling after a plethora of intoxicated martyrs in paradise. Mind you, he doesn't do a very good job of controlling them down here when they are sober.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:37 pm
by Trojan
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
كذلك وزوجناهم بحور عين

"As such, We shall wed them to wideeyed houris (the virgins of Paradise)."

-Koran, ad-Dukhan, verse 54


زوج = "join in marriage"

Since the Janatis are married to the huris, it is obvious that the correct translation is white virgins.

Also عين = "wide eyed". No doubt it refers to a human rather than a fruit.

-Aksel


Aksel,

http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol6No1/HV ... xHorn.html


Harmonization of passages that are united by theme is another feature of the textual difficulty of the Qur’ān. Sections fifteen and sixteen examine how a misreading in one verse triggered sympathetic misreadings throughout the text based not on grammatical or lexical similarity but because the scattered verses alluded to a single concept. In section fifteen, Luxenberg treats the virgins of paradise and in section sixteen the youths of paradise. Sura 44:54 is the starting point for the discussion. Bell translates this as “We will join to them dark, wide-eyed (maidens).” The verb “join as in marriage” or “pair as in animals for copulation” is a classic misreading of zāy for rā and jīm for hā' (both pairs distinguished only by a single dot), instead of zawwaj it is rawwah “give rest, refresh,” the object of the verb being the blessed in paradise. The major conclusion of section fifteen is that the expression hūr cīn means “white (grapes), jewels (of crystal)” and not “dark, wide-eyed (maidens)” (suras 44:54 and 52:20). Luxenberg first examines carefully each component of sura 44:54 and of sura 52:20. The Qur’ān mentions other kinds of fruits in paradise, namely, dates and pomegranates (sura 55:68) as well as grapes (sura 78:32). Grapes are also mentioned in the context of “earthy” gardens ten times. Since earlier scholarship knows that the Qur’ān uses the Syriac word for garden gantā > janna for paradise, the grape then must be the fruit of paradise par excellence (p. 234). Why, if that is so, is the grape only mentioned in connection with the “heavenly” garden once?

[31] To answer this, Luxenberg presents earlier scholarship, notably that of Tor Andrae and Edmund Beck, showing a connection between the images of the garden of paradise in the Qur’ān and in the hymns of Ephraem the Syrian entitled On Paradise. Andrae remarked that hūr was likely from the Syriac word for “white,” but his solution was to say that the Qur’ānic usage was somehow metaphorical. Neither he nor Beck considered that the Arabic “virgin” was a later misunderstanding on the part of the commentators.

[32] Ephraem uses the term gupnā, “vine,” grammatically feminine, with which hūr agrees and from this Andrae concluded that it was a metaphor for “the virgins of paradise” in the Qur’ān. In suras 44:54 and 52:20, Luxenberg argues that instead of the singular cīn the plural cuyun should be read, referring to the grapes on the vine. Elsewhere the Qur’ān compares the grapes to “pearls,” and so they must be white grapes, which is not apparent from the text at first glance. Luxenberg then offers two variants of this expression. The first reading renders the phrase “white, crystal (clear grapes),” the second, and the one Luxenberg adopts, is “white (grapes), (like) jewels (of crystal).” The restored verse then reads “We will let them (the blessed in Paradise) be refreshed with white (grapes), (like) jewels (of crystal).”

[33] Of the several related examples in sections 15.2 – 15.9, Luxenberg follows the virgins of paradise through the Qur’ān. In section 15.2, Luxenberg observes that azwaj, “spouses,” also can mean “species, kinds” (suras 2:25, 3:15, and 4:57). The latter reading makes more sense “therein also are all kinds of pure (fruits).” Luxenberg links to the misunderstanding of sura 44:54 zawwaj, “join, marry.” The misinterpretation of one verse spills over into the related thematic content of another. The other sections are also well-argued. Of special interest are the discussions in sections 15.5 – 15.6 of suras 55:56 and 55:70, 72, 74, respectively, which state, referring to the virgins of paradise “whom deflowered before them has neither man nor jinn.” Instead, these are the grapes of paradise “that neither man nor jinn have defiled.” Luxenberg points out that sura 55:72 evidences another Qur’ānic parallel to Ephraem, who writes that the vines of paradise abound in “hanging grapes.”10

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:43 pm
by OrientExpress
It was reported that those 9/11 hijackers made some calls to escort agencies. They likely have solicited sex from prostitutes before they carried out their suicide mission.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:33 pm
by piscohot
OrientExpress wrote:It was reported that those 9/11 hijackers made some calls to escort agencies. They likely have solicited sex from prostitutes before they carried out their suicide mission.


just in case 'hur' really meant raisins.
call it 'insurance'

:worthy:

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:27 pm
by OrientExpress
piscohot wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:It was reported that those 9/11 hijackers made some calls to escort agencies. They likely have solicited sex from prostitutes before they carried out their suicide mission.


just in case 'hur' really meant raisins.
call it 'insurance'

:worthy:


Actually the Quranic paradise pales in comparison with how the hijackers spent their times on earth.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:55 pm
by The Cat
In this case, I think we should look elsewhere than into Syriac... Raisins simply doesn't fit the context.

The Islamic concept of Huris seems to be borrowed from the Hindu concept of Apsaras, or heavenly maidens.
In the Rig Veda, one Apsara is called URvashi and in the Mahabharata she attempted to seduce Arjuna.
But I have no etymological clue to relate both terms. Unless apsaras had other names in a different culture...

More likely this should derives from Zoroastrianism, under Salman the-Persian's influence over the Koran.
In Persian Pahlavi, 'Hur' means -light-, according to William St. Clair Tisdall.

Who Authored The Koran (Abul Kasem)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AbulKasem41205.htm
On Salman the Persian (page 4)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/Ab ... 1205p4.htm
Muhammad had cleverly utilised Salman’s extraordinary talent to compose many verses of the Qur’an that deal with historical tales of the ancient Egypt, the Greek, the Romans and the Persians. As Salman was formerly a Zoroastrian Muhammad learned, in detail many of their beliefs and practices and incorporated them in his Qur’an. Muhammad’s description of Paradise and hell are stunningly similar to that of the Zoroastrians. So those verses dealing with the punishment in Hell and the prize in Paradise were surely contributed by Salman, the Persian. It is interesting to note that Salman became a close member of Muhammad’s family. Aisha reports that Muhammad used to spend countless hours with him-- discussing various religious issues, so much so, that Aisha thought that Salman would spend the night with Muhammad.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsaras
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Swan_Maidens
Interesting study: History Before Islam:
http://www.satan4u.8m.com/religion/islamhistory.html

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:51 am
by Lava Lamp
Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them."

- Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34

Even if its true that when Houris are mentioned, fruit is in mind, there is still obviously intercourse in Heaven.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:23 am
by John Monash
Trojan wrote:Later that day (Sept. 11, 2001)...... in Paradise, 19 young men stand naked, and uncircumsized before the throne of Allah ...
A loud thundering sound is heard. The men tremble....
Allah Enters, and speaks ...

ENJOY ! ! !


Image

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:10 am
by Pragmatist
John Monash wrote:
Trojan wrote:Later that day (Sept. 11, 2001)...... in Paradise, 19 young men stand naked, and uncircumsized before the throne of Allah ...
A loud thundering sound is heard. The men tremble....
Allah Enters, and speaks ...

ENJOY ! ! !


Image



:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:24 am
by Aksel Ankersen
Trojan wrote:
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
كذلك وزوجناهم بحور عين

"As such, We shall wed them to wideeyed houris (the virgins of Paradise)."

-Koran, ad-Dukhan, verse 54


زوج = "join in marriage"

Since the Janatis are married to the huris, it is obvious that the correct translation is white virgins.

Also عين = "wide eyed". No doubt it refers to a human rather than a fruit.

-Aksel


Aksel,

http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol6No1/HV ... xHorn.html


Harmonization of passages that are united by theme is another feature of the textual difficulty of the Qur’ān. Sections fifteen and sixteen examine how a misreading in one verse triggered sympathetic misreadings throughout the text based not on grammatical or lexical similarity but because the scattered verses alluded to a single concept. In section fifteen, Luxenberg treats the virgins of paradise and in section sixteen the youths of paradise. Sura 44:54 is the starting point for the discussion. Bell translates this as “We will join to them dark, wide-eyed (maidens).” The verb “join as in marriage” or “pair as in animals for copulation” is a classic misreading of zāy for rā and jīm for hā' (both pairs distinguished only by a single dot), instead of zawwaj it is rawwah “give rest, refresh,” the object of the verb being the blessed in paradise. The major conclusion of section fifteen is that the expression hūr cīn means “white (grapes), jewels (of crystal)” and not “dark, wide-eyed (maidens)” (suras 44:54 and 52:20). Luxenberg first examines carefully each component of sura 44:54 and of sura 52:20. The Qur’ān mentions other kinds of fruits in paradise, namely, dates and pomegranates (sura 55:68) as well as grapes (sura 78:32). Grapes are also mentioned in the context of “earthy” gardens ten times. Since earlier scholarship knows that the Qur’ān uses the Syriac word for garden gantā > janna for paradise, the grape then must be the fruit of paradise par excellence (p. 234). Why, if that is so, is the grape only mentioned in connection with the “heavenly” garden once?

[33] Of the several related examples in sections 15.2 – 15.9, Luxenberg follows the virgins of paradise through the Qur’ān. In section 15.2, Luxenberg observes that azwaj, “spouses,” also can mean “species, kinds” (suras 2:25, 3:15, and 4:57). The latter reading makes more sense “therein also are all kinds of pure (fruits).” Luxenberg links to the misunderstanding of sura 44:54 zawwaj, “join, marry.” The misinterpretation of one verse spills over into the related thematic content of another. The other sections are also well-argued. Of special interest are the discussions in sections 15.5 – 15.6 of suras 55:56 and 55:70, 72, 74, respectively, which state, referring to the virgins of paradise “whom deflowered before them has neither man nor jinn.” Instead, these are the grapes of paradise “that neither man nor jinn have defiled.” Luxenberg points out that sura 55:72 evidences another Qur’ānic parallel to Ephraem, who writes that the vines of paradise abound in “hanging grapes.”10

Trojan, please don't copy paste.

Your post still doesn't explain the description of the Hur as "wide eyed" (عين). In another verse of the Koran the Hur of Jannat are also termed "high breasted", clearly they are females. And indeed Jesus' disciples in the Koran are also distinguished by Hawar, so the noun can certainly be applied to people.

In addition, Hadith confirms that the heavenly Hur are women:


Narrated Abdullah bin ‘Ubayd bin ‘Umayr al-Laythi

“When the two armies meet, Allah sends down the Hur al-’Ayn to our sky, so if they see a man advancing towards the enemy, they say: “O Allah! Keep him firm!” and if they see him retreat, they cover their faces from him out of shyness, and if he is killed, they descend to him and wipe the dust from his face, saying: “O Allah, pour dirt upon the one who put dirt on him, and pour dust upon the one who put dust on him.”

-Hadith of Ibn al-Mubarak, Kitab al-Jihad


Besides, Luxenberg's argument is all based on the assumption that the transmitters of the Koran misread zawaja (زوج) for rawwah (روح), frankly unlikely since the Koran was transmitted by word of mouth in the decades following Muhammad's death. The two words certainly aren't pronounced the same.

In fact zawaja and rawwah occur, each used in the correct context, several places in the Koran. Plainly Muhammad's scribes understood the words and the difference between them.

I'll see if I can find those verses.

Re: A Promise of Moist Virgins or Dried Fruit?

PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:36 am
by ukavinda
Quran is Mo'Mad poetry, to motivate men to join and immediate rewards was more wife, and more sex slaves. Hereafter, also the same. 72 virgins. As a poet Mo'Mad had given new meanings to old words. Do accept the meaning of Mulims as it is Vergins. Otherwise there is no motivation to do Jihad.