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Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:00 am
by iffo
WittyBoy said in other thread

WittyBoy
@ iffo

Please, Open a new thread so that we can discuss these Hadiths one by one.


For starter what you think about the following.

killing for leaving Islam

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"


Torture

They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. (Sahih Muslim 4131 ).

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:05 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
iffo wrote:WittyBoy said in other thread

WittyBoy
@ iffo

Please, Open a new thread so that we can discuss these Hadiths one by one.


For starter what you think about the following.

killing for leaving Islam

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"


Torture

They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. (Sahih Muslim 4131 ).


That's Islam, like any honest, educated Imam would admit.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:58 am
by WittyBoy
iffo wrote:killing for leaving Islam

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"



Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" [al-Bukhari - 84:57]

Yes, this is obviously Sahih Hadith.

I'd like to ask you a question:
What is the Penalty for Treason?

In the U.S Code for example
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Reference

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:50 am
by piscohot
to justify putting an apostate to death, you simply need to equate apostasy with treason.

hmmmm... good idea.... :nono:

is islam a country?

should we put to death all converted muslims who were previously of another religion, since they obviously committed treason too againsit their former religion.
What you say WittyBoy?

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:27 am
by skynightblaze
@WITTY BOY


Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 484:

Narrated Rafi bin Khadij:

I heard the Prophet saying, "Fever is from the heat of the (Hell) Fire; so cool it with water."


So wittyboy a fever is because of hell fire ? I guess science must be wrong and your prophet must be true. Right?


SAHIH BUKHARI Volume 1, Book 10, Number 510:

Narrated Abu Huraira and 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "If it is very hot, then pray the Zuhr prayer when it becomes (a bit) cooler,as the severity of the heat is from the raging of the Hell-fire."


Again heat of the desert is because of the hell fire? Are you again sure that this man was a prophet????

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:30 am
by skynightblaze
Witty Boy wrote:I'd like to ask you a question:
What is the Penalty for Treason?


Tell me why is leaving islam a treason? Using Zakir Naik's argument is really not a good idea.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:32 am
by pr126
I think "treason" is very apt.

Muhammad had an army of looters and robbers held together by the cult of Islam.

Leaving Islam meant that the apostate soldier of Allah was no longer bound by the cult, and committed treason thus becoming an enemy of Islam Muhammad.
Islam is a military religion, designed for conquest, to build an imperialistic empire.
Muslims are soldiers of Allah, to fight in the way of Allah. Or Muhammad, rather.

Quran 4:89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:35 am
by WittyBoy
piscohot wrote:is islam a country?

It's not a country, but all Islamic rules aim to make the Islamic community very coherent, just like the country aims to.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:41 am
by piscohot
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:is islam a country?

It's not a country, but all Islamic rules aim to make the Islamic community very coherent, just like the country aims to.



so how about answering the next question: should all new muslims who were previously of another religion be put to death as they were committing 'treason' against their previous religion?

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:43 am
by skynightblaze
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:is islam a country?

It's not a country, but all Islamic rules aim to make the Islamic community very coherent, just like the country aims to.


YOu didnt answer the relevant question. How is leaving islam a treason exactly ? Do you believe that an individual is free to chose whichever religion he wants? Please answer the above questions put to you.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:49 am
by WittyBoy
piscohot wrote:so how about answering the next question: should all new muslims who were previously of another religion be put to death as they were committing 'treason' against their previous religion?

I can't say what should other religions do! Islam defined its rules which protect its community and assure its coherency.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:55 am
by piscohot
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:so how about answering the next question: should all new muslims who were previously of another religion be put to death as they were committing 'treason' against their previous religion?

I can't say what should other religions do! Islam defined its rules which protect its community and assure its coherency.


Let me put it in another way: if the other religions said the same thing: kill all believers who convert to islam, would you agree?

what exactly do the quran meant when it said:
002.256
Let there be no compulsion in religion

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:10 am
by WittyBoy
skynightblaze wrote:How is leaving islam a treason exactly ?

Treason is an act of disloyalty or betrayal of trust to your own government.**

And i showed how Islam is similar to country, government,... and it aims to make the Islamic community very coherent like as one unit.

Do you believe that an individual is free to chose whichever religion he wants?

Of course, yes. But before one becomes a Muslim, he knows this rule and accepts it, and who is already Muslim, he hasn't to pronounce his conversion for the reason i mentioned above.


We have some Hadiths mentioned in this thread. After them, I can answer your questions.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:26 am
by WittyBoy
piscohot wrote:Let me put it in another way: if the other religions said the same thing: kill all believers who convert to islam, would you agree?

Which religions? Christianity for example? This rule is already in Bible, But Islam as it keeps itself from the hands of people, acts as the true religion and should protect itself and its coherency.

what exactly do the quran meant when it said:
002.256
Let there be no compulsion in religion

You have the choice to embrace Islam or not. But if you embraced it, you have to respects its rules, and you can leave it, but you have not to pronounce that.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:33 am
by piscohot
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:Let me put it in another way: if the other religions said the same thing: kill all believers who convert to islam, would you agree?

Which religions? Christianity for example? This rule is already in Bible, But Islam as it keeps itself from the hands of people, acts as the true religion and should protect itself and its coherency..


I am asking would you agree if another religion said to KILL MUSLIMS who were converts from that religion.

WittyBoy wrote:
what exactly do the quran meant when it said:
002.256
Let there be no compulsion in religion

You have the choice to embrace Islam or not. But if you embraced it, you have to respects its rules, and you can leave it, but you have not to pronounce that.


What about those who were born into Islam but did not embraced it?
Do they have to die because they were not muslims by choice?
what do you mean by: 'you have not to pronouce that'?

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:08 am
by WittyBoy
piscohot wrote:I am asking would you agree if another religion said to KILL MUSLIMS who were converts from that religion.

For me as a Muslim believes that Islam is the only true religion, I don't want who converts from the false religion to the true one to be killed.

what do you mean by: 'you have not to pronounce that'?

As I said, because Islam aims to make a coherent community, you have not to pronounce your conversion from Islam between Muslims, you can conceal that or leave them.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:04 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:
iffo wrote:killing for leaving Islam

Bukhari 4:52:260 Ali burnt some people (Zanadiqa, atheists 9:84:57) although the Prophet had said, "Don?t punish anybody with Allah's punishment (Fire)" if a Muslim discards his religion, kill him"



Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'" [al-Bukhari - 84:57]

Yes, this is obviously Sahih Hadith.

I'd like to ask you a question:
What is the Penalty for Treason?

In the U.S Code for example
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Reference


So when one no longer believes in Islam, they are automatically attacking Islam and helping their enemies?? My goodness, you are nothing but one giant, walking excuse.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:08 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:so how about answering the next question: should all new muslims who were previously of another religion be put to death as they were committing 'treason' against their previous religion?

I can't say what should other religions do! Islam defined its rules which protect its community and assure its coherency.


OK, you can't say, but you DO have an opinion. Everyone does. So in your opinion, would it be fair for other religions to kills their believers if they convert to Islam, just like Islam calls for their believers to be killed if they convert to another religion?? It's so funny to listen to Muslims talk about fairness and justice but when it's Islams turn, the rules suddenly change.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:13 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:Let me put it in another way: if the other religions said the same thing: kill all believers who convert to islam, would you agree?

Which religions? Christianity for example? This rule is already in Bible,


In Christianity??? Where??

WittyBoy wrote:You have the choice to embrace Islam or not. But if you embraced it, you have to respects its rules, and you can leave it, but you have not to pronounce that.


So you are not allowed to speak the truth?? You have to hide the truth?? So Islam preserves itself by hiding the truth??

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:16 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:
piscohot wrote:I am asking would you agree if another religion said to KILL MUSLIMS who were converts from that religion.

For me as a Muslim believes that Islam is the only true religion, I don't want who converts from the false religion to the true one to be killed.

what do you mean by: 'you have not to pronounce that'?

As I said, because Islam aims to make a coherent community, you have not to pronounce your conversion from Islam between Muslims, you can conceal that or leave them.


Killing someone, or making them leave, or even merely "silencing" them because of their religious choices are all forms of compulsion in religion.