Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

@ Muhammad bin Lyin
Please see my other questions for you above. Regarding this, if the Quran was not specific about position of prayer and how to pray, among other things, then the assumption has to be that they already understood how to pray or else they would have asked. So they were already specifically shown how to pray and this was also recounted in the hadiths and the Quran was merely reminding them to do this. It's similar to the Quran mentioning Badr as if the audience already knew what it was talking about and that's why it didn't specify.
Well I can accept the argument from "Sunnah" but the hadiths are not the source (they are different). Again there does not seem to be a specific length implied in the Qur'an (in fact we can almost certainly say it does not matter), and then I assume a reference can be produced proving that Muslims have always prayed in this fashion. And again there are the points in the prayer that most certainly are not sunnah, whilst the Qur'an describes how to pray in and of itself. The purpose of prayer is best served by what is in the Qur'an, and it seems there is the basic Qur'anic form with the parts of the ahadith added to it. However we would have to proceed point-by-point to see which parts of the "sunnah" are actually in line with the Qur'an. Finally if people all around the world accept one form of prayer, then clearly as I said they would have accepted any form (e.g. the mishmash of Bukhari). The question is how has it been so influential when it is not based on harmonic instructions? So people can differ on ahadith (leading to temporary-marriage etc.) but not on an unsubstantiated practice? It still seems logical to follow what is in the Qur'an and we can tell that the ahadith have added and enforced details.

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
MesMorial wrote:I will answer the other points most of which require just a few sentences.

Peace to all.
You still haven't answered any of mine. Not even one. I'll take that to mean that I raised the right points and you don't have an answer for them.
I haven't read your points yet.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Skynightblaze wrote:
First of all your response doesnt address all the verses.
There were only two that would fit on the screen. The meanings of those verses were clearly apparent in the Qur'an and hence whether they are relevant today is no issue.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote: “Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”

Qur’an 17:1


We know it was Muhammad (SAW) because if it were Musa (SAW) then the furthest mosque would not be the furthest mosque. The Sacred Mosque would be the furthest one (at least for him, so it would make little sense). The Israelites resided in the Holy Land and this is further proof that the furthest masjid is in Jerusalem (since it mentions Musa (SAW) right after).
And what were those signs that he was shown?? It never says, right?? And was Muhammad to keep those signs a secret?? It never said anything like that. The truth of the matter is that the Quran is not telling them about the journey to the sacred mosque, it is reminding them of it. It is reminding them of something that they already know the details to, just like it reminds them of Badr and other things without going into any details. It doesn't go into details because the listeners already are aware of the details. So if they were already familiar with what the "signs" were that the Quran was referring to, then this would point to them already being told the larger story of the night journey that existed before this verse was ever uttered, and this is the story that correctly ended up in the hadiths. And any Islamic scholar will tell you that this story has the origin of praying 5 times per day. So for as embarrassing and ridiculous as that story can sometimes get, it seems all too legitimate and Muhammad did indeed make these claims. Just because it's embarrassing, that doesn't mean he didn't tell that story. He said plenty of embarrassing things.
Last edited by Muhammad bin Lyin on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
MesMorial wrote:I will answer the other points most of which require just a few sentences.

Peace to all.
You still haven't answered any of mine. Not even one. I'll take that to mean that I raised the right points and you don't have an answer for them.
I haven't read your points yet.
Well you might be surprised.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

My face is ugly enough to where you can go back and easily find any of my posts a few pages ago by merely skimming through and looking for my ugly, diaper clad head.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

There is only one question that I have not addressed (because I addressed some of yours in response to other people) and that is the multiple examples of what you mentioned. I doubt that such obvious "errors" would have been committed if it were a fabrication.

I will address this tomorrow since the battery is low.

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yeezevee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote: ...........

Well I can accept the argument from "Sunnah"
but the hadiths are not the source (they are different). Again there does not seem to be a specific length implied in the Qur'an (in fact we can almost certainly say it does not matter), and then I assume a reference can be produced proving that Muslims have always prayed in this fashion. And again there are the points in the prayer that most certainly are not sunnah, whilst the Qur'an describes how to pray in and of itself. ...
MesMorial thinks people can around in circles., around and around Quran-suunah-hadith and back to hadith -sunnah- Quran where MesMorial is the leader of understanding all these Islamic manuals. Unfortunately in this age &time on internet that doesn't work like that .

And it will not work as long as freedom of expression is not curtailed by the Islamic rulers and those leaders of infidel governments who say "Islam is Peace" for the sake of Booty (Oil money and business ) with the rulers of Islamic world where Freedom of expression to Muslims and few non-Muslims living in those lands were/are clamped down to the extent any criticism of Islamic ruler is a direct path to jail or for some even to Alla heavens.

Proof of it is in PUDDING and pudding is 1400 years of Islamic history. Couple that to Islamic Manuals Quran/Sunnah/hadith what you get is a Cult and where Muhammad(PBUH) becomes head of that cult.

Any ways., our Mesmerizing MesMorial says "Well I can accept the argument from "Sunnah" .,

Good where did you get that Sunnah from and where did you get the Quran from?? Let me define sunnah for the sake of readers..
The term Sunnah comes from the root word sanna, which means to pave the way or make a path easily passable, such that it becomes a commonly followed way by everyone afterwards. Thus sunnah can be used to describe a street or road or path on which people travel., it can apply to a prophetic way, i.e. the law that they brought and taught as an explanation or further clarification of a divinely revealed book. Normally, the prophetic way includes "references to his sayings", actions, physical features and character traits.
yes.."references to his sayings" "CUT A LITTLE"., now we have 100s of millions were cut little for the past 1000 years., still it goes on in countries like Egypt to all the way to end of Africa., Now it is in France.. US of A and London
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So dear MesMorial we can not run around circles along with you., Where do you read Sunnah from?? source please..

with best wishes
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by WittyBoy »

iffo wrote:
WittyBoy
I asked you to bring the true fact and then show how this one is wrong, you can't refuse a fact without proving it wrong, depending on what you refused it, depending on a scientific research? or just because it's a hadith?
I told you resemblance all depends on chromosomes, not because who ejaculates first, or who drink more milk. How difficult is for you to understand.
but it's difficult for you to understand, i meant that you have to prove that discharging first or the exceeding of one's discharge the other doesn't affect the formation of the child nor making him resemble one of his parents more than the other. You can't say:" another fact is right, then this one is wrong." What if there's no contradiction between them? Again you can't refuse it without proving it wrong.
God can forgive whoever muslim he wants to forgive, but he can not put Jew/Christians in hell for the muslims instead.
I mentioned two possible interpretations, how did you find them wrong or illogical?
Is this the god you are so proud about? Is this the Islam your Mullahs has taught you?.
Yes, refute these teachings instead of suffering this number of defeats.
God talking about sunday, monday that he created mountain on sunday, water on monday etc all this nonsense, when sunday monday did not even exits
The prophet(pbuh) said mountains for example have been created on the second day of the seven days of creating these creatures, Jews made these seven days a week, Romans called each day of them with the current names of days, so the prophet mentioned these days with their known names whatever their names have been when Allah was creating these things. I hope you understand anything of what i said.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:There is only one question that I have not addressed (because I addressed some of yours in response to other people)
Not that I can tell.
MesMorial wrote: and that is the multiple examples of what you mentioned.
That's true, I don't just make claims, i give actual examples and they are all from the Quran.
MesMorial wrote: I doubt that such obvious "errors" would have been committed if it were a fabrication.
How can 9:30 and 63:4 possibly be explained?? Remember, this was in response to your statement that Muhammad would never refer to himself in second person, but really, we don't know what Muhammad would or wouldn't do. He's already masqueraded himself as being God speaking directly, so who knows what else he would do? And the only way to explain those verses other than he slipped up and couldn't correct them because it was supposed to be God talking, is that God is an absolute schizophrenic.

We would have God wishing for or requesting that God do something. :crazy: And it's not impossible to occur at all. As I explained before, in sura 9, the speaker is extremely angry. I think Muhammad was whipped up into such an emotional frenzy that he simply forgot who was supposed to be speaking for a brief moment, and there is no way he could take it back or correct it. It's the ventriloquist who accidentally moved his lips.

Anyway, the relevance of this to this thread is that the hadiths have more truth in them than the Quran. At least the hadiths were often true eye witness accounts, but if the Quran is not the letter for letter dictation of Allah and is not Allah speaking, then the entire thing becomes a lie of Muhammad either intentionally, or because of delusion, or maybe even a little of both. So to Muslims, the hadiths should have far more value and can at least offer some historical information and give an idea of the culture of that time.

MesMorial wrote: I will address this tomorrow since the battery is low.
Peace to you and good night!
Well, it's going to take a lot of battery power to power your invention lab where you will attempt to "concoct" something. :lol:
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote: You prove yourself wrong by providing that verse. Indeed Muhammad (SAW) was just a warner. He purified those who wanted to be purified, but it he did not actively "purify" them (i.e. compel them). Those who heeded him as Messenger were purified.

Try again. How does it feel knowing you will never be able to use those ayat in an argument again?
So you want to tell me that Muhammad was sent to purify only those who wanted i.e only believers. Please show me where 62:2 said that muhammad was sent only to purify those who wanted. See the verse... It doesnt mention that only believers were to be purified. It speaks of Unlettered people and not the believers.

[062:002]

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-


The verse clearly states that muhammad has been sent to AMONGST THE UNLETTERED which would include even the disbelievers because not all the disbelievers were literate so you see 62:2 includes even the disbelievers so the contradiction stays as it is .

Btw how do you feel knowing that prophet was a fraud? Leave the mockery part and try to be rational and objective.Quran is just as any 4th grader will write. What you think is we are enemies of islam determined to destroy islam and thats what blocks thinking in you guys. I will start another thread where I am going to ask a simple question for which you will no answers because there are really no good answers .
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Brendalee »

Brendalee says:
Ah, care and compassion are not HUMAN traits? You told me Allah does not have human "emotions" because he is just too incomprehensible to have them. Let's make the COMPARISON of human to Allah, your self-proclaimed god who says he cannot be compared to anything. I will set aside the preaching aspect of your post as the drivel that it is.

You tell me Allah does not have human "emotions" but then you credit him immediately with TWO: care and compassion. Wait, you said he did not have them. Wait, you say he does have them. LOL! Sorry either he DOES or he DOES NOT. Which is it?

If he has human traits, we can compare him to a human. And this makes it false for Allah to claim that he cannot be compared to anything. If he does NOT have human traits, then we cannot compare him to a human. But HE makes claims of human traits throughout the entire Quran.
MesMorial responds:
Well care and compassion are not confined to humans. Gorillas etc. care too but in different ways. Your entire post is now redundant.
How is my post "redundant"? Your above point relies on me having claimed that care and compassion are CONFINED to humans. Kindly cite where I said this. I did not say this. You have invented a red herring.

I merely claim them as human traits; According to the Quran Allah SHARES this trait with humans (and, apparently with Gorillas, etc according to your post. I did not expand to other creatures, so if you like to compare Allah to sharing the same trait with a Gorilla (etc.) be my guest.)

Allah names HIMSELF as "compassionate" and he therefore compares HIMSELF to humans who are also capable of this trait. He constantly assigns himself with human traits.
I simply mean that there is no better way to express what you call the "emotions" of God than through words like "care" etc. You tried to make a point by saying that Allah (SWT) is like a human, but the evidences you use are simply the best words to express the attributes of what we cannot define. Since we cannot define Him, we only express the attributes of Allah (SWT) according to the words describing how we can best "imagine" the Divine (i.e. He is merciful to a true believer etc.) The Qur'an uses those words because if He used concepts we were unfamiliar with we could not be guided. The point here is not the process, but the outcome.
The "best words to express", you say. Are they then just a lie? They are not what Allah claims them to be HIMSELF, but just a lie?
Allah is not REALLY compassionate (etc) even though he CLAIMS to be? We are not talking about LEVELS of compassion, here. LEVELS of a trait are greatly varied even between one human and the next. So is ALLAH "compassionate" as HE HIMSELF CLAIMS, or does he LIE about being compassionate just because he is incomprehensible? If he is NOT compassionate (though HE claims he is), then neither is he an all-knowing, all encompassing deity. If he cannot be compared to anything, then he is simply too alien for us to relate to on any level whatsoever. We cannot rely on his compassion, because he is not capable of compassion. We cannot rely on his mercy because he is not capable of feeling mercy, a human emotion, and is incomprehensible. We cannot believe in anything he says in the Quran because he is too alien for comprehension and is UNABLE to communicate with us because he LIES in the Quran and we actually have NO WAY to relate to him because we share NOTHING with him. We are supposed to trust and believe in him, but his entire Quran tells us NOTHING about him because he LIES about his own traits. Is this your answer? !

LOL! Stop flip-flopping. Either he IS compassionate AS HE CLAIMS, or he is NOT. If Allah is so incomprehensible that he has NO ability for compassion, then he clearly LIES when HE SAYS he is compassionate. Listen, I may not be able to tell a foreign language speaker that I care about the plight he is in. I do not speak his language so I can only SHOW my compassion by trying to help. If I did not HAVE compassion, I could not SHOW compassion.

Now you tell us that Allah HAS no compassion but is LYING when HE SAYS he is compassionate because we do not speak his higher god-language?
You falsely declare that Allah (SWT) lied but your point implodes. What is your point? Allah (SWT) prevented Muhammad (SAW) from being afraid. Too much hot air from you.

Peace.
What? My point implodes? How, exactly? You now AGREE that Allah lied. You merely attempt now to JUSTIFY his lying by saying that this LIE "prevented Mohammad from being afraid". I am glad you finally concede the obvious factthat Allah lied to his own prophet, though the REASON that he lied is not, and never was, the topic. (Incidentally, would it have been just too hard for Allah to simply say, "BE not afraid" ? So hard for Allah that all he can do is rely on a lowly HUMAN tactic and LIE? What does logic tell you about this weak EXCUSE for Allah's LIE that you now invent?)

[/quote]P.S. I explained 66:1-5 above.[/quote]

No sorry, as it relates to what I was asking, you did NOT. I pointed out that meddling in other people's sex life and marriages was a very human trait.
Last edited by Brendalee on Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
MesMorial wrote:With regards to your astonishment as to how it is that Muslims today pray uniformly, the question you want to be asking is how is it that Bukhari has had so much influence because remember there were varied ways that Muhammad (SAW) prayed and most probably there were not Muslims from Indonesia etc. in Muhammad's (SAW) vicinity. Therefore the influence is not just Muhammad (SAW).
But Bukhari did not tell us how to pray, would you be able to show it to us, clear instruction from Bukhari ma made rubbish book on how we pray? No spinning, just clear instruction for average humans

Cheers
The fact is there is no hadith which tells us how to pray in the fashion seen today. Can someone bring proof that Muslims have not been influenced by Bukhari (i.e. that the Muslim prayer has indeed remained the same for 1400 years)?

Scholars seem to justify the prayer via Bukhari and not by tradition (in the sense that skynightblaze is thinking). It is stitched together.

http://al-mawrid.org/pages/articles_eng ... 56&cid=312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Peace.
I edited my previous post because I realized that I was tricked by you. I had posted a logic which would still prove that the practice came from muhammad .Anyway its not needed because I found you tried to fool people here.

Here are the sources for the complete prayer from your article..

1). Ibn Khuzaymah, No: 654.
2)Bukhari
3)Sahih muslim
4)Aḥmad Ibn Ḥanbal
5)Nasā’ī,
6)Abū Dā’ūd,
7)Ibn Abī Shaybah

All the prayer rituals are scattered across the various islamic scriptures and not just Bukhari now please tell me how come we have a standard uniform practice in such a case? No book has this practice of praying completely .So you see your lie has been caught.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

WittyBoy wrote: The prophet(pbuh) said mountains for example have been created on the second day of the seven days of creating these creatures, Jews made these seven days a week, Romans called each day of them with the current names of days, so the prophet mentioned these days with their known names whatever their names have been when Allah was creating these things. I hope you understand anything of what i said.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
MesMorial wrote: “Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”

Qur’an 17:1


We know it was Muhammad (SAW) because if it were Musa (SAW) then the furthest mosque would not be the furthest mosque. The Sacred Mosque would be the furthest one (at least for him, so it would make little sense). The Israelites resided in the Holy Land and this is further proof that the furthest masjid is in Jerusalem (since it mentions Musa (SAW) right after).
And what were those signs that he was shown?? It never says, right?? And was Muhammad to keep those signs a secret?? It never said anything like that. The truth of the matter is that the Quran is not telling them about the journey to the sacred mosque, it is reminding them of it. It is reminding them of something that they already know the details to, just like it reminds them of Badr and other things without going into any details. It doesn't go into details because the listeners already are aware of the details. So if they were already familiar with what the "signs" were that the Quran was referring to, then this would point to them already being told the larger story of the night journey that existed before this verse was ever uttered, and this is the story that correctly ended up in the hadiths. And any Islamic scholar will tell you that this story has the origin of praying 5 times per day. So for as embarrassing and ridiculous as that story can sometimes get, it seems all too legitimate and Muhammad did indeed make these claims. Just because it's embarrassing, that doesn't mean he didn't tell that story. He said plenty of embarrassing things.
The word for signs is ayat so maybe these signs included the verses (ayat) following...

Also it is highly suggestive in 17:60 that among the signs shown to Muhammad (SAW) were other things:


"Behold! We told thee that thy Lord doth encompass mankind round about: We granted the vision which We showed thee, but as a trial for men,- as also the Cursed Tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an: We put terror (and warning) into them, but it only increases their inordinate transgression!"

Qur'an 17:60


The greatest of the signs *the Garden" is suggested here:


"Certainly he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord."

Qur'an 53:18

(read prior ayat to this).


Explain clearly how the Qur'an is reminding poeple of something they already knew. Was the hadith detailed before or after? I thought ahadith were supposed to come after the Qur'an to "explain" it, not the other way.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:
I edited my previous post because I realized that I was tricked by you. I had posted a logic which would still prove that the practice came from muhammad .Anyway its not needed because I found you tried to fool people here.

Here are the sources for the complete prayer from your article..

1). Ibn Khuzaymah, No: 654.
2)Bukhari
3)Sahih muslim
4)Aḥmad Ibn Ḥanbal
5)Nasā’ī,
6)Abū Dā’ūd,
7)Ibn Abī Shaybah

All the prayer rituals are scattered across the various islamic scriptures and not just Bukhari now please tell me how come we have a standard uniform practice in such a case? No book has this practice of praying completely .So you see your lie has been caught.
No lie; it is you who confuses hadith and sunna if that is what you meant... Bukhari represents the greater proportion so consider it hyperbole. There are more than 7 ahadith used.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Brendalee's argument rested on the fact that mercy etc. were human emotions. Now he/she says that they are not confined to humans.

Re-read my explanations of the simple fact that we cannot "define" the attributes of Allah (SWT) beyond outcomes (i.e. the consequences of doing wrong etc. are severe and so on). However Allah (SWT) represents the best "outcome" (since we can become close to Him) of doing good. Words which suggest He has human emotions are simply used so that we know that which will bring us closer to Him and what will not.

It is simple.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

@ Yeezevee

I can accept the logic of the argument regarding "sunnah" is what that means. The discussion concerned prayer so with all those maps we are off course once more.

In short the prayer may or may not be derived from Muhammad (SAW) but there are points that are against the Qur'an and so to consider it mandatory like any other practice from ahadith is not wise. I mean the different parts in the ahadith.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:@ Yeezevee

I can accept the logic of the argument regarding "sunnah" is what that means. The discussion concerned prayer so with all those maps we are off course once more.

In short the prayer
Spoiler! :
may or may not be derived from Muhammad (SAW) but there are points that are against the Qur'an and so to consider it mandatory like any other practice from ahadith is not wise. I mean the different parts in the ahadith.
Who is asking about Prayers dear mesmerizing MesMorial?? Islam is not just Prayers unless Muslim robots start behaving like these



Islam is more than just putting the head down and ... up into sky. The Question was ..
yeezevee wrote:
MesMorial wrote: ....Well I can accept the argument from "Sunnah"

..................
Good where did you get that Sunnah from and where did you get the Quran from?? ...

So dear MesMorial we can not run around circles along with you., Where do you read Sunnah from?? source please..

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Brendalee »

MesMorial wrote:Brendalee's argument rested on the fact that mercy etc. were human emotions. Now he/she says that they are not confined to humans.

Re-read my explanations of the simple fact that we cannot "define" the attributes of Allah (SWT) beyond outcomes (i.e. the consequences of doing wrong etc. are severe and so on). However Allah (SWT) represents the best "outcome" (since we can become close to Him) of doing good. Words which suggest He has human emotions are simply used so that we know that which will bring us closer to Him and what will not.

It is simple.
Oh, please do not behave like a buffoon. I have not changed my argument ONE iota, but as you have clearly lost it you attempt to play games by trying to twist my words. I did not discuss the EXCLUSIVITY OR OTHERWISE of human traits. In fact I clearly accused Allah - as he clearly accuses HIMSELF of SHARING those traits. So therefore, I have NEVER even implied in the slightest way that these traits are confined to humans. Your obvious attempt to distract with this fabrication should be an embarrassment to you.

Your second paragraph is blah, blah, blah. You deny that Allah has traits which HE HIMSELF claims. I asked you plainly if he was LYING when he claims these traits throughout the Quran.

Increasingly you just obfuscate and refuse to answer my points. So I will now bring that post forward so that you may address the points made in it.

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