Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
iffo
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by iffo »

WittyBoy wrote:
iffo wrote: How children look like depends on chromosomes. Not on who ejaculates first like your stupid hadith says.
My answer was very clear, here's it again:
WittyBoy wrote:I asked you to bring the true fact and then show how this one is wrong, you can't refuse a fact without proving it wrong, depending on what you refused it, depending on a scientific research? or just because it's a hadith?
Moving right along
To more defeats isA.
Book 037, Number 6668:

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.
In the next time, you have to write which book this hadith from.

The prophet didn't say all Muslims, they are a group from Muslims, and do Muslims deserve this forgiveness? Yes with Allah's mercy, do Jews and Christians deserve this punishment? Yes, because they were the nearest people to believe in Islam. However, they didn't. Another interpretation, maybe they were the reason behind these sins, and they deluded this group of Muslims and made them do these sins, we have a rule says that who makes another one do a misdeed, it's assigned to both of them, but in this situation Allah forgave which believed on Him, and of course didn't forgive which didn't.
Sahih Moslem and Bukhari:

Abu Hurayra said, the prophet said:

"When the call for prayer is made, Satan turns around to leave while farting very loudly so that he would not hear the Azan (call for prayer), When Azan is finished Satan returns back.
You think satan farts :*)
This is kind of abasement, fool. Here's a part from this chapter carries different meaning of the Satan's behavior during the call of the prayer.
Sahih Muslim
Chapter 6
THE EXCELLENCE OF ADHAN AND RUNNING AWAY OF THE SATAN ON HEARING IT

Book 004, Number 0751:

Abu Sufyan reported it on the authority of Jabir that he had heard the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: When Satan hears the call to prayer, he runs away to a distance like that of Rauha. Sulaimin said: I asked him about Rauha. He replied: It is at a distance of thirty-six miles from Medina.

Book 004, Number 0753:

AbuHuraira reported the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: When Satan hears the call to prayer, he turns back and breaks the wind so as not to bear the call being made, but when the call is finished he turns round and distracts (the minds of those who pray), and when he bears the Iqama he again runs away so as not to hear its voice and when it subsides, he comes back and distracts (the minds of those who stand for prayer).

Book 004, Number 0754:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When the Mu'adhdhin calls to prayer, Satan runs back vehemently.
Sahih Moslem, Book 39, Number 6707:

Abu Hurayra said "The messenger of God took me by the hand and said, God created the soil on Saturday, the mountains on Sunday, the trees on Monday, the abominations on Tuesday,, the light on Wednesday, the animals on Thursday, and Adam on Friday afternoon."
God also have these days sunday/monday like men has with same names :*)
When Allah do something on earth, so it can be obviously measured by the earth measurement, but when Allah talks about something outside the earth, it is subject to other measurements. For example,

He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning. [As-Sajda:5]
WittyBoy
I asked you to bring the true fact and then show how this one is wrong, you can't refuse a fact without proving it wrong, depending on what you refused it, depending on a scientific research? or just because it's a hadith?
I told you resemblance all depends on chromosomes, not because who ejaculates first, or who drink more milk. How difficult is for you to understand. Have you heard the term genetics? There is a whole field of science.
WittyBoy
The prophet didn't say all Muslims, they are a group from Muslims, and do Muslims deserve this forgiveness? Yes with Allah's mercy, do Jews and Christians deserve this punishment? Yes, because they were the nearest people to believe in Islam. However, they didn't. Another interpretation, maybe they were the reason behind these sins, and they deluded this group of Muslims and made them do these sins, we have a rule says that who makes another one do a misdeed, it's assigned to both of them, but in this situation Allah forgave which believed on Him, and of course didn't forgive which didn't.
God can forgive whoever muslim he wants to forgive, but he can not put Jew/Christians in hell for the muslims instead.
Your Allah has to be retarted to do that. And you are so pathetic that you are saying its OK to do that.
Is this god you call fair/just god?? Is this the god you are so proud about? Is this the Islam your Mullahs has taught you?.

WittyBoy
When Allah do something on earth, so it can be obviously measured by the earth measurement, but when Allah talks about something outside the earth, it is subject to other measurements. For example,
Why don't you try again, this time get help from some dumb ass Mullah of yours. Go consult them before wasting your time. God talking about sunday, monday that he created mountain on sunday, water on monday etc all this nonsense, when sunday monday did not even exits ........ see how beyond imagine dumb you are.

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

MesMorial wrote:With regards to your astonishment as to how it is that Muslims today pray uniformly, the question you want to be asking is how is it that Bukhari has had so much influence because remember there were varied ways that Muhammad (SAW) prayed and most probably there were not Muslims from Indonesia etc. in Muhammad's (SAW) vicinity. Therefore the influence is not just Muhammad (SAW).
But Bukhari did not tell us how to pray, would you be able to show it to us, clear instruction from Bukhari ma made rubbish book on how we pray? No spinning, just clear instruction for average humans

Cheers

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

skynightblaze wrote:27.92.
And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: "I am only a Warner".


Here its told that Muhammad is only a warner and nothing else i,e he is just supposed to warn about the message and hence muhammad is not supposed to sanctify people as per this verse so we have an internal contradiction if quran is asking muhammad to sanctify people.

Enjoy dude! :lol:

Here is the dumb kid of FFI spinning again

Listen kid, Muhammed was warning everyone, then purifying those who followed him

Dismiss yourself, dumby

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

AhmedBahgat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:27.92.
And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: "I am only a Warner".


Here its told that Muhammad is only a warner and nothing else i,e he is just supposed to warn about the message and hence muhammad is not supposed to sanctify people as per this verse so we have an internal contradiction if quran is asking muhammad to sanctify people.

Enjoy dude! :lol:

Here is the dumb kid of FFI spinning again

Listen kid, Muhammed was warning everyone, then purifying those who followed him

Dismiss yourself, dumby
How can he be then only a warner as 27:92 says? He is both . Right? Accept the path of Iblis bagrat before its too late and immediately order a hard copy of Bukhari and repent . Be quick!
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

skynightblaze wrote:To refute Bahgat who claims that 4:59 refers to obeying men of authority like police ,president etc and not men of authority in matter of religion here is the verse ..

[004:083]
When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Apostle, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of God unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.


Now this verse is clearly telling us how men of authority are to obeyed. It clearly was some religious matter and hence the verse is saying that one should have contacted muhammad or the men of authority. So there is another verse asking muslims to refer to hadiths.

Here is the skyarseblaze Ibn Abu Hurairah defending al-Mushrikoon again

If you read again my definition of men of authority, you should notice the 'ETC' I added, look above in youe quote, blind

Now, I also said anyone with VALID authority, not conpeople making their own authority.

Now ETC should cover men of authority in religion, i.e. men of authority in religion who have a VALID authority, which should take us to how we know a valid authority in religion?

The answer should be simple, you filthy hadith worshippers, in fact it is in the verse before the verse you brought in, let's have a look, shall we:

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا (82)
Do they not ponder upon the Quran? And if it had been from anyone other than Allah, they would have found in it much discrepancy.
[Al Quran ; 4:82]

وَإِذَا جَاءهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِّنَ الأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُواْ بِهِ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَى أُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ وَلَوْلاَ فَضْلُ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لاَتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً (83)
And when there comes to them an announcement of security or fear, they announced it. And if they had referred it to the messenger and to those who possess authority from among them, those who are able to comprehend it from among them would have known it. And if it was not for the grace of Allah and His mercy upon you, you would have followed the devil except a few.
[Al Quran ; 4:83]

I.e. men of authority in religion should be men who talk on behalf of God, i.e. messengers delivering His messages, or others who use His message to answer any question (pondering upon His Quran), see again how it was said in the verse before it: Do they not ponder upon the Quran? Now those who ponder upon the Quran should be the ones mentioned in the next verse: and to those who possess authority from among them, those who are able to comprehend it from among them would have known it.

Like me for example, when anyone asks me a religious question, I GET THE ANSWER FROM THE WORDS OF ALLAH, i.e. I am a man of religious authority because I dont get anything from my own, rather from what Allah said.

On the other hand, the like of you kafirs, and mushriks like Nijis WittyBoy cannot be men of authority in religion, this is because you dont talk with what Allah sent down, rather you talk with some other crap from some fukin people that non of you never met.

Let me show you such authority in action, and then you will be slammed:

وَيَسْتَفْتُونَكَ فِي النِّسَاء قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِيهِنَّ وَمَا يُتْلَى عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الْكِتَابِ فِي يَتَامَى النِّسَاء الَّلاتِي لاَ تُؤْتُونَهُنَّ مَا كُتِبَ لَهُنَّ وَتَرْغَبُونَ أَن تَنكِحُوهُنَّ وَالْمُسْتَضْعَفِينَ مِنَ الْوِلْدَانِ وَأَن تَقُومُواْ لِلْيَتَامَى بِالْقِسْطِ وَمَا تَفْعَلُواْ مِنْ خَيْرٍ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِهِ عَلِيمًا (127)
And they ask you for a ruling concerning women. Say: Allah gives you a ruling concerning them and what is recited to you in the book concerning the female orphans to whom you do not give what is decreed for them while you desire to marry them; and (concerning) the weak from among the children that you should deal with the orphans in justice. And whatever you do of good, then indeed, Allah is ever of it Knowing.
[Al Quran ; 4:127]

-> See when the people asked Muhammed a question, Allah did not tell Muhammed to answer them as he desire, rather Allah told Muhammed to tell the people, Allah responds to you: And they ask you for a ruling concerning women. Say: Allah gives you a ruling concerning them and what is recited to you in the book How compelling, Nijis hadith worshiper? Can you see that all verses I am bringing in are from the same sura you brought 4:83 from. Very impressing, hey, how about another one from the same sura:

يَسْتَفْتُونَكَ قُلِ اللّهُ يُفْتِيكُمْ فِي الْكَلاَلَةِ إِنِ امْرُؤٌ هَلَكَ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَهُ أُخْتٌ فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ وَهُوَ يَرِثُهَآ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهَا وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَتَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُمَا الثُّلُثَانِ مِمَّا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانُواْ إِخْوَةً رِّجَالاً وَنِسَاء فَلِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ أَن تَضِلُّواْ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ (176)
They ask you for a ruling. Say: Allah gives you a ruling concerning those who die while leaving behind no parents or descendant, if someone dies who has no child but has a sister, then for her is half of what he leaves, and he should inherit her if she has no child; but if they are two, then for them is two-thirds of what he leaves. And if they are siblings of men and women, then for the male is the portion of two females. Allah explains to you lest you go astray; and Allah is of everything Knowing.
[Al Quran ; 4:176]

-> See again from the same surah how the only religious authority (the authority of Allah) is working: They ask you for a ruling. Say: Allah gives you a ruling

Here you have it, punk of a hadith worshiper bound to hell. The religious authority is only one authority, the authority of Allah, messengers delivers this authority then explain it further to those who followed them, as for those who rejected the authority of Allah, messengers for them were only warners warning them to be aware of the authority of Allah and what will be the consequence if they reject His authority.

Men like me who only talk Quran, and only take religious authority from it and not from man made rubbish books. Are men of authority because when people ask me for a religious ruling, I tell them: Allah gives you a ruling. Then I present to them with what Allah said.

You have been slammed again, you filthy hadith worshiper, now you should do yourself and your lover Mushrik Muslim WittyBoy some justice by giving your arses a bit of workout, and what better workout for your arses than shoving the 9 man made books of hadith up them.

Image # 105
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

@Bahgat

The verse 4:59 already states muslims are supposed to obey Allah,the messenger and the MEN OF AUTHORITY. Again you dumb if its finally obeying Allah or if men of authority are messengers again then common sense tells saying Obey men of authority would be redundant.

Also one more thing the verse 4:83 says muslims should have consulted the messenger and the men of authority so who are these men of authority you fool especially when you are claiming that men of authority are messengers? Were there multiple messengers when this verse was revealed? Also men of authority arent messengers otherwise there is redundancy.

Men of authority during muhammads time were Abu Bakhr, Umar, Ali and Uthman. SO bahgat please shove that slam dunk up your bum. Btw Why do you call it a slam dunk? Keep the naming convention meaningful . You can say post no 105 or SLANG DUNG no 105 .
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

skynightblaze wrote:@Bahgat
Men of authority during muhammads time were Abu Bakhr, Umar, Ali and Uthman. SO bahgat please shove that slam dunk up your bum. Btw Why do you call it a slam dunk? Keep the naming convention meaningful . You can say post no 105 or SLANG DUNG no 105 .
See, you stubborn filthy hadith worshiping kafr, I must mother slam you to shut your filthy herpes infected mouth for good:

Let’s see what the first man of authority Abu Bakr did after Muhammed died:

The following hadith by Abu Bakr is from a man made sunni book called:

Book name: كنز العمال, i.e. The treasure of workers or The treasure of deeds

By: الذهبي , Al-Zahabi

لم يكن الخليفة عمر اول من عمد الى احراق الاحاديث ومنع الناس من نقل حديث رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله. فقد سبقه الى ذلك الخليفة الاول ابو بكر فقد جمع الناس في بداية خلافته وقال " إنكم تحدثون عن رسول الله أحاديث تختلفون فيها ، والناس بعدكم أشد اختلافا ، فلا تحدثوا عن رسول الله شيئا ، فمن سألكم فقولوا بيننا وبينكم كتاب الله ، فاستحلوا حلاله ، وحرموا حرامه" ثم عمد الى احاديث عن النبي كان قد جمعها بنفسه فاحرقها كلها وكان عددها 500 حديث

I.e.

And of course Khalifah Omar was not the first who deliberately burnt the hadith and prohibited the people from transmitting hadith about the messenger of Allah, as preceded him the first Khalifah Abu Bakr who gathered the people in the first days of his ruling and said:

Indeed, you are talking hadith about the messenger of Allah while you disagree on them, and the people after you will surely disagree more than you, therefore if anyone asks you, then say: Between you and us is the Book of Allah, so make lawfully anything it (the Quran) makes lawful, and prohibit anything it (the Quran) prohibits.

Then he went and brought about 500 hadith about the prophet which he collected himself and burnt all of it.


See you filthy hadith worshiping kafir what the first man of authority did, he burnt all 500 hadith belonging to him. This explains why we have very little hadith by Abu Bakr in the man made crap book of Bukhari, certainly after Abu Bakr died, the wannabe Mushrik Muslims kept transmitting some of his hadith and disobeyed the men of authority.

I also showed your pinky arse what the second Khalifah Omar did, for which you were stunned and consequently your provided no answer, so let me give you another chance to answer it (which is going to be impossible because this is a mother of all slams, you know):

عن عروة بن الزبير عن أبيه عروة قال: أراد عمر بن الخطاب أن يكتب السنن، فاستشار فيها أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه، فأشار عامتهم بذلك عليه؛ فمكث عمر شهراً يستخير الله في ذلك شاكاً فيه؛ ثم أصبح يوماً قد عزم الله له، فقال: إني كنت ذكرت لكم من كتاب السنن ما قد علمتم؛ ثم تذكرت، فإذا ناس من أهل الكتاب قد كتبوا مع كتاب الله كتاباً ألبسوا عليه، وتركوا كتاب الله، وإني والله لا ألبس كتاب الله بشيء أبداً ؛ فترك عمر كتاب السنة.
Arwah Ibn Al-Zobair said that his father Arwah said: Omar Ibn Al-Khattab once wanted to write the sunnah, so he took the advice of most of the companions of the messenger of Allah. They advised him that he should do it.

So Omar stayed for a month seeking the guidance of Allah to do it or not as he was doubting it. One day he waked up and it seems that Allah guided him to what to do, so Omar Ibn Al-Khattab said:

Indeed, I mentioned to you that I desired to write the sunnah of what you have already known, then I remembered the people of the book before you who wrote a book next to the book of Allah and got confused therein and left the book of Allah. And indeed, by Allah, I will not confuse the book of Allah with anything, ever.

So Omar rejected writing the sunnah in books.


Now, what Omar said means FOREVER not during his time only, see how he said it: وإني والله لا ألبس كتاب الله بشيء أبداً , i.e. And indeed, by Allah, I will not confuse the book of Allah with anything, ever.

So tell me mister Mushrik WB, how come Khalifah Omar Ibn Al-Khattab refused to write the Sunnah (he even referred to it with this name instead of hadith) while you along with your associates lied to us and told us that the prophet allowed writing Sunnah/Hadith later on in his life and before his death?

Well, the answer is simple, the prophet never allowed his people to write anything he said but Quran, he even deleted what they wrote and told them he is only a human, remember this from your Man Made book that we discussed earlier:

عن أبي هريرة قال: بلغ رسول الله أن ناساً قد كتبوا حديثه، فصعد المنبر، فحمد الله وأثنى عليه ثم قال ما هذه الكتب التي بلغني أنكم قد كتبتم، إِنما أنا بشر. من كان عنده منها شيء فليأت به ؛ فجمعناها فأخرجت
Abi Hurairah said: The messenger of Allah was informed that some people wrote his hadith, so he climbed into the stand then praised and thanked Allah and said:

What are these books that you have written? Indeed, I am only a human, whoever has of these books should bring it in.

So we collected it and destroyed it.


Let’s move on and see what else Omar did:

عن خالد بن عرفطة قال كنت جالساً عند عمر، إذ أتي برجل من عبد القيس، مسكنه بالسوس؛ فقال له عمر أنت فلان بن فلان العبدي? قال نعم قال وأنت النازل بالسوس? قال نعم فضربه بقناة معه؛ فقال الرجل ما لي يا أمير المؤمنين? فقال له عمر: اجلس فجلس فقرأ عليه بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم، الر، تلك آيات الكتاب المبين، إنا أنزلناه قرآناً عربياً لعلكم تعقلون، نحن نقص عليك أحسن القصص إلى لمن الغافلين فقرأها عليه ثلاثاً، وضربه ثلاثاً، فقال له الرجل ما لي يا أمير المؤمنين? فقال أنت الذي نسخت كتاب دانيال? قال مرني بأمرك أتبعه قال انطلق فامحه بالحميم والصوف الأبيض؛ ثم لا تقرأه ولا تقريه أحداً من الناس؛ فلئن بلغني عنك إنك قرأته أو أقرأته أحداً من الناس، لأنهنك عقوبة ثم قال له أجلس فجلس بين يديه فقال: انطلقت أنا، فانتسخت كتاباً من أهل الكتاب، ثم جئت به في أديم، فقال لي رسول الله صلى الله عليه ما هذا في يدك يا عمر قال قلت يا رسول الله كتاب انتسخته، لنزداد به علماً إلى علمنا فغضب رسول الله صلى الله عليه، حتى احمرت وجنتاه، ثم نودي بالصلاة جامعة؛ فقالت الأنصار: أغضب نبيكم صلى الله عليه: السلاح، السلاح ، فجاؤا حتى أحدقوا بمنبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه، فقال: يا أيها الناس إني أوتيت جوامع الكلم وخواتيمه، واختصر لي اختصاراً، ولقد أتيتكم بها بيضاء. نقية، فلا تتهوكوا، ولا يقربكم المتهوكون .
Khalid Ibn Arfattah said: I was sitting with Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, when he brought in a guy from Abdulqais whose house was in the village of Soos, and then Omar said to him:

Are you that guy from Abdulqais? The guy said: Yes

Omar said to him: And you live in Soos? The guy said: Yes

So Omar hit him with a stick. The guy said: What I have done wrong O Amir Al-Mumineen (Khalifah)?

Omar said to him: Sit down. Then Omar read the following Quran verses three times:


الر ۚ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ الْمُبِينِ (1)
Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the manifest book.
[Al Quran ; 12:1]

إِنَّا أَنْزَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ (2)
Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Quran that perhaps you will understand.
[Al Quran ; 12:2]

نَحْنُ نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ أَحْسَنَ الْقَصَصِ بِمَا أَوْحَيْنَا إِلَيْكَ هَٰذَا الْقُرْآنَ وَإِنْ كُنْتَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِ لَمِنَ الْغَافِلِينَ (3)
We relate to you the best of the stories in what We have revealed to you of this Quran; and indeed, you were before it among the unaware.
[Al Quran ; 12:3]

Then Omar hit the guy three times. The guy said to Omar: What I have done wrong O Amir Al-Mumineen (Khalifah)?

Omar said to the guy: Aren’t you the one who translated the book of Daniel (to Arabic). The guy replied: Command me and I will certainly do what you want.

Omar said to the guy: Go and destroy it and never read it to the people or get it near them; and if I get informed that you read it or made anyone to read it, I will humiliate you with punishment.

Then Omar asked the guy to sit down, and told him: One day I got a book translated from the books of the people of the book, then went to the messenger of Allah, the messenger of Allah asked me about it, so I told him it is a translated book from the books of the people of the book. The prophet got very angry until his cheeks turned red.

The messenger then stood on the stand and said the following:

O people! I was given the complete collection of the words and their ending, it was been briefed to me in excellent briefing, and I came to you with it while it is white and pure. So do not be reckless and never allow reckless ones to come near you.


While the matter above was about writing/translating the books of the people of the book, we cannot overlook what the prophet said to the people about the Quran in the above allegation:

The messenger of Allah said: O people! I was given the complete collection of the words and their ending, it was been briefed to me in excellent briefing, and I came to you with it while it is white and pure. So do not be reckless and never allow reckless ones to come near you.

How beautiful these descriptions about the Quran: I was given the complete collection of the words and their endings, it was been briefed to me with excellent briefing, and I came to you with it while it is white and pure. So do not be reckless and never allow reckless ones to come near you.

In no way these Man Made evil books of crap hadith are:

1- Complete collection of the words and their endings.
2- Briefed with excellent briefing.
3- White.
4- Pure.

The Man Made rubbish books of crap hadith are not but:

1- Complete collection of confusion and non sense.
2- Unrealistically lengthy and horrible to read and understand by average people.
3- Black.
4- Impure.

See WB, it has to be as iffo told you, it is either you declare these books as false or you choose hell to be your destination.

Let’s read a great story about Omar Ibn Al-Khattab when he wanted to filter out all al Mushrikoon:

حدثنا القاسم بن محمد أن عمر بن الخطاب بلغه أنه قد ظهر في أيدي الناس كتب، فاستنكرها، وكرهها، وقال: أيها الناس، أنه قد بلغني أنه قد ظهرت في أيديكم كتب؛ فأحبها إلى الله أعدلها وأقومها، فلا يبقين أحد عنده كتاب، إلا أتاني به، فأرى فيه رأيي قال فظنوا أنه يريد أن ينظر فيها، ويقومها على أمر لا يكون فيه اختلاف؛ فأتوه بكتبهم فأحرقها بالنار ثم قال: أمنية كأمنية أهل الكتاب
Al-Qasim Ibn Muhammed said: Omar Ibn Al-Khattab was informed that some books started to surface between the people, so he denied and despised them then said:

O people! I was informed that some books appeared between your hands, and the most loved of them to Allah would be the most just and fair, so no one leaves a book with him except he should bring to me so I see what is in there and give my opinion. (Omar was only tricking them)

The people thought wrong that Omar wanted to look at the books and authenticate them in order to remove disagreement between these books. The people brought to Omar all their books and he just burnt them all, and then said:

You just had the desire (tendency) like the desire of the people of the book.


How awesome by that man, I have to admit Omar is the most one I admire from the companions of the prophet, I am sort like him slightly, I do not mock around with al mushrikoon, I confront them in an aggressive way to filter them out and destroy them in the most aggressive way possible.

What I like about the above great story is how Omar quickly planned to trick the people in thinking that their Man Made books of rubbish hadith will be considered, but only after he checks them personally and give his opinion, then announcing who had the best book; consequently the owner of the winning book will be the most loved by Allah, see how he said it to them:

، أنه قد بلغني أنه قد ظهرت في أيديكم كتب؛ فأحبها إلى الله أعدلها وأقومها، فلا يبقين أحد عنده كتاب، إلا أتاني به، فأرى فيه رأيي

i.e.

I was informed that some books appeared between your hands, and the most loved of them to Allah would be the most just and fair, so no one leaves a book with him except he should bring to me so I see what is in there and give my opinion.

The people were fooled of course, was easy upon the very smart Omar especially that most of those wannabe Mushrikoon are already proved their dumbness and stupidity with their clear tendency to shirk. This allowed Omar to make sure that every single Man Made book will be brought in (to win the huge prize of the love of Allah), which meant that Omar made sure that every single Man Made book of theirs is brought in to be destroyed REGARDLESS of any good stories therein.

عن يحيى بن جعدة أن عمر بن الخطاب أراد أن يكتب السنة، ثم بدا له أن لا يكتبها؛ ثم كتب في الأمصار من كان عنده منها شيء فليمحه.
Yahya Ibn Jaadah said: Omar Ibn Al-Khattab desired to write the sunnah, then it became apparent to him that he should not, then he wrote on public notes to inform anyone who has written sunnah that it should be deleted.

Omar even posted public notices to make sure all Man Made books of sunnah were destroyed.

All the above stories about Omar happened when Omar was Khalifah, i.e. years after the prophet’s death; a grandmother of all slams exposing the clear cut lies and confusion of al mushrikoon.
--------------

As for the third Khalifah Uthamn, we know that he did not give a damn about hadth, he only collected and unified the Quran, had the hadith had any importance, Uthamn would have collected it too.

As for the fourth Khalifah Ali, well the Muslim Ummah was well into disaster since Omar was killed, they continued to fight for power and kill each other. Therefore, there is really nothing good to learn from the fourth Khalifah period.

Here you have it punk, you have nothing to prove your lies about worshiping the man made hadith by the first men of authority, all you have is this:

1- The shirk tendency of many confused Muslims who followed their confused fathers and grandfathers like Mushrik WittyBoy who is following a man made corrupt religion that was never sent from Allah.
2- Your shirk tendency as a confused ex-Hindu follower who was badey embarrassed with the crap in your hindu corrupt religion so you turned kafir but at the same time carry a lot of envy against believers like me who only believes in the preserved Quran and will never shirk with Allah a thing

You have been mother slammed

Image
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Oh God, I'm getting ill. :lol:
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by crazymonkie_ »

Ill with laughter?

Oh, and also:
3- Black.
4- Impure.
:huh:

Racist.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
Spoiler! :
]Regarding 16:44


“With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.”

Bialbayyinati waalzzuburi waanzalna ilayka alththikra LITUBAYYINA lilnnasi ma nuzzila ilayhim walaAAallahum yatafakkaroona

Qur'an 16:44


“And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.”

Wa-ith akhatha Allahu meethaqa allatheena ootoo alkitaba LATUBAYYINUNNAHU lilnnasi wala taktumoonahu fanabathoohu waraa thuhoorihim waishtaraw bihi thamanan qaleelan fabi/sa ma yashtaroona

Qur’an 3:187


Notice latubayyininnahu (make known) is similar to the word (make clear) in 16:44. Obviously the instruction in 16:44 is to make clear (proclaim) the ayat because they are already defined as clear in the first part of the verse…


“Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.”

Qur’an 75-17-19


http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 5&verse=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


“These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?”

Qur’an 45:6


***


Regarding 62:2

The word for sanctify is wayuzakkīhim which means to purify. Also he is purifying the people, and not the ayat………………………

See 9:103 (same word):

“Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”


Qur’an 9:103

Muhammad (SAW) brings the signs (ayat) and with them their innate wisdom contained in the acts of purification (salat, alms-giving etc.) The Prophet performs each of these things by delivering the Book which is the “wisdom”:

“This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away.”

(Thalika mimma awha ilayka rabbuka mina ALHIKMATI wala tajAAal maAAa Allahi ilahan akhara fatulqa fee jahannama malooman madhooran)


Teaching the book is telling the book’s contents so that people can remember and record…

There is no need for an external revelation and nor is there any in the Qur’an. Keep looking.
First of all your response doesnt address all the verses.You cant deny that all those the quranic verses(16:44,62:2 etc) apply to you as well i,e modern day muslims. Those verses clearly tell that muhammad is supposed to instruct people and clarify the quran .In such case how in the world can Muhammad instruct you guys when he is no longer today? Muhammad can only instruct you provided you follow scriptures other than quran which records muhammads sayings .Even if we assume that muhammad is sanctifying people and not the ayat it still doesnt solve the problem .Since these verses are applicable today also, you muslims need to be therefore sanctified and instructed by muhammad . If you guys need to be instructed or sanctified by Muhammad how in the world can you be sanctified unless you follow hadiths?

Btw here is a gift from me to you.

27.92.
And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: "I am only a Warner".


Here its told that Muhammad is only a warner and nothing else i,e he is just supposed to warn about the message and hence muhammad is not supposed to sanctify people as per this verse so we have an internal contradiction if quran is asking muhammad to sanctify people.

Enjoy dude! :lol:
You prove yourself wrong by providing that verse. Indeed Muhammad (SAW) was just a warner. He purified those who wanted to be purified, but it he did not actively "purify" them (i.e. compel them). Those who heeded him as Messenger were purified.

Try again. How does it feel knowing you will never be able to use those ayat in an argument again?
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

I will answer the other points most of which require just a few sentences.

Peace to all.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

AhmedBahgat wrote:
MesMorial wrote:With regards to your astonishment as to how it is that Muslims today pray uniformly, the question you want to be asking is how is it that Bukhari has had so much influence because remember there were varied ways that Muhammad (SAW) prayed and most probably there were not Muslims from Indonesia etc. in Muhammad's (SAW) vicinity. Therefore the influence is not just Muhammad (SAW).
But Bukhari did not tell us how to pray, would you be able to show it to us, clear instruction from Bukhari ma made rubbish book on how we pray? No spinning, just clear instruction for average humans

Cheers
The fact is there is no hadith which tells us how to pray in the fashion seen today. Can someone bring proof that Muslims have not been influenced by Bukhari (i.e. that the Muslim prayer has indeed remained the same for 1400 years)?

Scholars seem to justify the prayer via Bukhari and not by tradition (in the sense that skynightblaze is thinking). It is stitched together.

http://al-mawrid.org/pages/articles_eng ... 56&cid=312" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

I think Brendalee was talking about Allah (SWT) having human-like emotions. That is a stretch because just like the descriptions of Hell are allegorical in the sense that we could never comprehend, neither can we comprehend the nature of the Divine and hence the "emotions" expressed merely indicate a direction closer to Allah's (SWT) favour or further from. This is for our benefit. E.g. when the Qur'an states that the Christians are perverse for worshipping Jesus, it merely means this is certainly not the way to go.

Thankyou for the questions and apologies if I was thinking ahead. Now you can read my post once more and enjoy it.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:@Bahgat

The verse 4:59 already states muslims are supposed to obey Allah,the messenger and the MEN OF AUTHORITY. Again you dumb if its finally obeying Allah or if men of authority are messengers again then common sense tells saying Obey men of authority would be redundant.

Also one more thing the verse 4:83 says muslims should have consulted the messenger and the men of authority so who are these men of authority you fool especially when you are claiming that men of authority are messengers? Were there multiple messengers when this verse was revealed? Also men of authority arent messengers otherwise there is redundancy.

Men of authority during muhammads time were Abu Bakhr, Umar, Ali and Uthman. SO bahgat please shove that slam dunk up your bum. Btw Why do you call it a slam dunk? Keep the naming convention meaningful . You can say post no 105 or SLANG DUNG no 105 .
These “authorities” guide only by Qur’an:


“And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them). And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).”


Qur’an 21:72-73


Likewise the authorities are expected be upholders of the Qur’an (whether they be police or other etc.). Bring me proof that they are upholders of ahadith.

As for 4:83, no-one judges but by the Qur’an:


“Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has taught you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous.”

Qur’an 4:105


The men of authority in 4:83 were assumed to be those capable of reacting to security situations.


Read the verse and think:


“And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few”

Qur’an 4:83


Muhammad (SAW) could not deal with every situation on his own and obviously needed to trust someone.

Again where are the ahadith?

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial thinks that he/she is mesmerizing the readers., She takes the verse 27.92. that is quoted by Mr. skynightblaze

well let us read that verse again with open mind along with the verses above and below that to get a decent of what it means
027.089: Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.

027.090: And whoever brings evil, these shall be thrown down on their faces into the fire; shall you be rewarded (for) aught except what you did?

027.091: I am commanded only that I should serve the Lord of this city, Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded that I should be of these who submit;

027.092: And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ' astray, then say: I am only one of the warners.

027.093: And say: Praise be to Allah, He will show you His signs so that you shall recognize them; nor is your Lord heedless of what you do.
With those verses MesMorial mesmerizing the folks
MesMorial wrote:

You prove yourself wrong by providing that verse. Indeed Muhammad (SAW) was just a warner. He purified those who wanted to be purified, but it he did not actively "purify" them (i.e. compel them). Those who heeded him as Messenger were purified.

Try again. How does it feel knowing you will never be able to use those ayat in an argument again?
Yes Muhammad was just Warner dear MesMorial ., .. A Warner raiding caravans along with his thugs ., A Warner of all the wars around those Mecca Madina towns that including Killing ..looting and raping women along with his brutal thugs who destroyed All that was there in those towns of Arabia of that time. Off course Children could be left alone, we need them as our slaves., let us read the biography a bit
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk
Those are well known expeditions ., let me list other wars and expeditions Prophet of Islam his Jihadi Matadors carried out through out Arabian towns during his time. MesMorial did you know that Battles in which Prophet took part physically, called GHAZWAT. Battles in which Prophet not command physically, called SARAYAS GHAZWAT -

So here you go ., let me list all together ...
1. Battle of WADAN
2. Battle of BAWAT
3. Battle of SAFWAN
4. Battle of ZU-ALASHEERA
5. Battle of BADAR KURA
6. Battle of QANEEQAH
7. Battle of AL-SAWEEQ
8. Battle of QAR-QARA lekaarmd
9. Battle of UZFAN
10. Battle of UHAD
11. Battle of HMRA-O-ASAD
12.Battle of BANU NASEER
13. Battle of BADAR-AKHIR
14. Battle of DOMTA JANDOL
15. Battle of BANU MUTLAQ
16. Battle of AHZAB/TRENCH
17. Battle of BANU QAREEZA
18. Battle of BANU LAHYAN
19. Battle of ZE-FARDA
20. Battle of HUDABIYA
21. Battle of KHYBER
22. Battle of VADI-E-ANQRA
23.Battle of ZAT- UL- RAQA
24.. Battle of MAKKAH
25. Battle of HUNNAIN
26. Battle of TAIF
27. Battle of TUBOOK
Indeed my man was warmongering warner., It is all for the sake booty and loot ., errr that is for Allah cause for allah sake., after his death he has created more warners., They multiplied so quickly, the lands between Spain in the west India in the East were destroyed to an unbelievable level and generated more brain washed warners.,

you can read all the way to 20th century on these warners and warmongers created by Muhammad(PUH) at http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 165#261165." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;,

and even today we have PBUH following warners running around towns., .. Iraqi Christians are facing that.. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; off course, Lucky infidels, these warners of 21st century are NOT that strong militarily., other wise they would be running around countries forget towns..

MesMorial you say
" He purified those who wanted to be purified, but it he did not actively "purify" them (i.e. compel them). Those who heeded him as Messenger were purified."
And I say., Yes he and his followers purified everyone all the way out of this world in to Allah heavens or hell

Ridiculous nonsense with silly explanation of rubbish verses from that copy/pasted alleged Allah book...

with best regards
yeezevee

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Brendalee »

MesMorial wrote:I think Brendalee was talking about Allah (SWT) having human-like emotions. That is a stretch because just like the descriptions of Hell are allegorical in the sense that we could never comprehend, neither can we comprehend the nature of the Divine and hence the "emotions" expressed merely indicate a direction closer to Allah's (SWT) favour or further from. This is for our benefit. E.g. when the Qur'an states that the Christians are perverse for worshipping Jesus, it merely means this is certainly not the way to go.

Thankyou for the questions and apologies if I was thinking ahead. Now you can read my post once more and enjoy it.
ALLEGORICAL? Seriously? Is that the best you can do? Yeah, its allegorical "in the sense" that it is INCOMPREHENSIBLE????? WOW! Kinda makes you wonder why he bothered with the Quran at all.

But, you tell me, he does it "for our benefit". WHY? Is it because he says he is CARING (human) and COMPASSIONATE (human)? Nope, cannot be, according to you.

Well this makes the entire doctrine of al-wala wal bara into rubbish and nonsense. Every time the Quran says to enjoin what Allah calls "good" and forbid what Allah calls "bad" it is a nonsense. If Allah cannot LIKE or DISLIKE things, then he HAS no favour or disfavour for anyone to move closer to, either. If is allegorical for him to tell Muslims to do one thing or another when HE cannot be pleased or displeased (more human emotions), then it doesn't matter at all what they do or do not do because Allah neither likes it or dislikes it. If it is allegorical, then Allah cannot PREFER one thing over another. Tell me, why does he pretend he does? (Ah, but THAT is human also!)

How can a Muslim like what Allah likes and hate what Allah hates if Allah does NEITHER? Huh? HOW?

This makes the entirety of the Quran even worse than meaningless. It makes Allah utterly and irretrievably random; an insensible Zombie-like Arbitrariness which could not possibly be in any way connected to the author of the Quran, because you have just contradicted the entire contents of the Quran. Throughout the Quran Allah continually describes himself in ways that you now say are NOT TRUE. He cannot be "merciful", he cannot be "benevolent", blah, blah. Its ALL allegorical incomprehensibility.

Allah is SO human-like that he even involves himself in Mohammad's sex-life and marital affairs! Kindly explain. Tell me what is so divine and not at all human in Allah meddling with somebody's sex life and marital affairs. I thought humans did that quite a lot; even too often.

And please deal with 8.43 and explain why Allah LIED to his own prophet. You just can't get more human than LYING.

Allah, who claims he cannot be compared to anything at all, is utterly HUMAN-like according to his own description of HIMSELF in the Quran. Totally human. Everything, throughout the Quran. I wonder if he mentions ANY trait that is NOT human.

You managed to rubbish the Quran far better than I ever have. And in far fewer words. WELL DONE!

Of course, I'd still like to hear your excuse for Allah's interest in Mohammad's sex life. And I patiently await the end of your evasion over Allah lying in 8.43.

(Edit) P.S. Oh, incidentally, regards your little probe...you know, your sly little dig at Christianity...sorry, your arrow was utterly wasted. Wrong target, but nice try.
Last edited by Brendalee on Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:Well you guys are circumsized when you are babies so its not a personal matter decided by man and his wife as you claim.Only muslims circumsize their kids. People from other religions usually wont do such practices. This practice is associated with your religion and its because Muhammad was circumcised.Just tell me why every single muslim is circumcised if its not at all associated with the religion of islam? To justify this practice you need the hadiths..
We (Qur’an-only Muslims) are circumcised? If it is a religious matter then show me the verse from the Qur’an. You say “only Muslims circumcise their kids”, but your Wikipedia article states otherwise.
First of all I didnt bring that wikipedia link otherwise I would not have made that wrong statement.Fine I didn’t know other people are also circumcised but there is still a problem here..

(25:2)
He created everything in exact measure; He precisely designed everything

If you circumcise you are actually believing that this verse is false.If circumcision is required then it would mean everything isn’t precisely designed by Allah so now actually it’s a problem for you if you are circumcised.Your quran is against you then why the hell did you circumcise? Its because its in the sunna or the tradition. There is simply no other excuse for this.

So tell me again why are you circumcised?
MesMorial wrote:Following ahadith is also a personal choice (excepting under the duress of man-made law). If it is recommended in the sunna that a male be circumcised, is this different for females?
Female circumcision is also mentioned in the sunna. I placed a link to answering islam;s article. You can view that article.It has the hadiths.
MesMorial wrote:
Many events have historical significance, such as Adolf Hitler being denied entry into art school. Humans write about these, and hence we have history.

However the Qur’an is not a history textbook and likewise recognises that humanity has some knowledge of the surroundings and context, as well as how to count to twelve (do the ahadith have details on everything?)
If quran is not a history textbook then why the hell does it keep on repeating the stories of past prophets? Repeating stories from previous scripture is nothing but talking about history.

Btw counting nos is easy and that’s a valid assumption for the author of quran to make that people would be knowing how to count nos but how can every single person be expected to know about battle of Badr? This comparison is fallacious.

Is it really a common knowledge like knowing nos ? Ask how many non muslims who have never studied islam know about Battle of Badr. This comparison is ridiculous .

[006:038]
There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.


So finally is this verse false then? It says that it has omitted NOTHING! NOTHING MEANS NOTHING and hence you shouldnt try playing any games here .The verse says we have covered EVERYTHING but you insist otherwise.

As far as are concerned they don’t cover every detail but they make sure that the reader understand what is written in them unlike quran.Finally hadiths dont claim to be written by God so they can be excused even if they fail to explain details of something that they mention but quran cant because it claims to be divine.Even a man made book like hadith is more clear and helps in understanding quran.

The point is if something is mentioned in the quran it warrants an explanation or else its simply useless to mention that thing.Have you ever seen any well known author doing such things like throwing some terminology in the book and not bothering to explain them?Thats bad authorship.Needless to say that even a man can write a better book than quran and the author of quran can be anyone but definitely not God.
MesMorial wrote:
What if it was an offensive war?
“And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.”
2:190
The significance of this battle was historical. The significance of the verses mentioning the battle is simply to demonstrate that Allah (SWT) will help the true believers. He would not have helped an aggressor, as clearly stated.
Boy o boy so man fallacies within a 2-3 lines…lets see them one by one..

1)Well where is the word of Battle Of badr here in 2:190? This is no mention of that word.You know that it refers to battle of Badr through sources other than quran so again the hadiths!.

2)There are plenty of other verses in the quran which tell us that true believers will be helped.There was no need of packaging terms like Battle of Badr in these verses only to convey the same message again .Its useless in that case.Remember this verse is applicable even today so the only message for you is Allah will help the true believers but that’s redundancy because quran has repeated this message across other verses.

3)Thirdly you selectively quote verses from quran to justify your point. You book also has offensive verses.. Let me put one of them here.

[009:029]
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The first thing is this verse contains the word disbeliever and not any specific tribe.Secondly this cannot be in any way be termed as self defense. In self defense you fight to protect yourself and not to make others believe in islam. Fighting so that people believe in Allah and the last day isn’t called self defense!

The verse clearly says that muslims are to fight the disbelievers until they accept the religion of islam so don’t even try to play acrobatics here.

So the question is how can we be sure that Muhammad was fighting a righteous battle? This even gets worse when we see the verse 3:13 which you quoted.
MesMorial wrote: The validity of Muhammad (SAW) is the complete Qur’an. He recited it and thus was the good example for humanity. He did not speak of his own desire.
Dude how in the world can you make such statements? Quran telling us that its pure cannot be taken as a proof. Its like a criminal under trial giving his own testimony as the only proof so that he can be declared innocent.Law doesn’t work that way.You need proofs other than yourself.

Quran saying its authentic and Muhammad is a good example is a ludicrous claim unless we can verify that with some other account or else its blind belief.How do we really know that muhammad was an example unless we know about muhammads life in details? This requires studying hadiths.
MesMorial wrote:3:13 mentions the same battle, and though you will wonder how we know, the purpose of this verse is self-explanatory:

“There has already been for you a Sign in the two armies that met (in combat): One was fighting in the cause of Allah, the other resisting Allah; these saw with their own eyes Twice their number. But Allah doth support with His aid whom He pleaseth. In this is a warning for such as have eyes to see.”
Again I see no mention of the word Battle of Badr. You get this ideas from sources other than quran so again you do depend on other sources.Secondly your own verse is a proof that we must look for sources other than quran to verify muhammads character .. See how..

Read the part in red. IT says one was fighting in Allahs cause . This refers to muslims and the other party was RESISTING ALLAH'S CAUSE.. Has anyone ever seen someone resisting when he/she is offensive? You resist only in self defense and not in aggressive wars or offensive wars so from this verse itself its clear that Muhammad was on the offensive and the other party was fighting for self defense because they were RESISTING ALLAHS CAUSE.

This is a good reason for someone to actually know what Battle of Badr was and with whom Muhammad was fighting and why. We need to know its significance and hence the hadiths.

MesMorial wrote: Likewise, if you were considering converting, you would be submitting to Allah (SWT) and not to Muhammad (SAW). He was the messenger and he fulfilled his mission.
First of all I cant even think of converting to islam because your book is full of criminal acts and there is nothing intelligent in it and it has tons of errors in it.Btw what if quran only told you follow Muhammad? Your argument doesn’t hold water in that case.
Why do you keep asking about circumcision when I told you it is not in the Qur’an. You make yourself look dumb. Defend him someone.

So why don’t all females get circumcised?

I answered the battle of Badr. It references the Bible etc. as well as events known at the time to illustrate points. Even if we did not know the specific event that is not the point if you just read the verses. Again someone defend him.


“And there is no animal that walks upon the earth nor a bird that flies with its two wings but (they are) genera like yourselves; We have not neglected anything in the Book, then to their Lord shall they be gathered.”

Qur’an 6:38


Will you ask this question to the Sunnis? Nothing is neglected from the recitation. Nothing is exempted it seems (it refers to living things). All we know is that the Qur’an is complete for our religion. To me it says that nothing is exempt (logically) i.e. it applies to all things. “Neglect” fits here does it not? It may too refer to evolution, or perhaps that all things are innately Muslim and will return (again, not “neglected”).

Besides, your application of this verse to Badr is desperate. The Qur’an illustrates by example and you cannot comprehend that.

I am not replying to you about circumcision and Badr because that debate is over. You have no more points and if you think you do then re-read 2:190.

More ramble…

You move to al-Tawbah. I will deal with that one next.

The example was Muhammad (SAW) since he was to proclaim the Qur’an.

You think 3:13 might have been offensive. Except the non-Muslims were twice their number. Read 2:190.

You say that we need to know about Muhammad’s life. We do not because the Qur’an says that if Muhammad (SAW) followed these revelations then he was a good example. Do you need to know the biography of every person you meet before you accept anything they say? Well it is a desperate point you make and it is like dust fleeing the broom. We can use our reason to accept the Qur’an not just on moral terms but because Muhammad (SAW) was loved by Allah (SWT) and he fulfilled his message in reciting and teaching the Qur’an we can accept the Prophet’s character.

Equally funny is your point concerning which of the two armies was the aggressor (the one fighting in Allah’s cause and the one unbelieving). As for “resisting”, examine the Arabic and see 2:190.
Last edited by MesMorial on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Concerning 9:29:

al-Tawbah is the most contextualised Surah in the Qur’an. Firstly it contains no Bismallah (being placed elsewhere in the Qur’an) and begins with a proclamation for its time. The close of the Surah (as presented today) is also highly contextual, making reference to the situation of the time and directly involving Muhammad (SAW). The purpose of al-Tawbah seems to be completely different particularly since it was revealed (according to the Qur’an) after treaties were repeatedly broken.

9:29 applies to those who do not wish to conciliate with Islam but continue to oppose it not just as God’s religion but also as the religion of choice. The criterion for “war” (in this context) is 9:6:


“And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.”


This is reinforced in 9:12:


“But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.”


Muslims of course are expected endeavour to spread Islam, but there is no compulsion in religion. Besides, we are “fighting” you now with the intent to clarify and correct your arguments (so that you might wish to convert) or if you wish to keep raising little questions, then that is fine.


“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.”

Qur’an 60:8


Finally, 5:3 declares Islam has been perfected and leaves no room for al-Tawbah to be considered offensive in any way.

See 5:42 where Muhammad (SAW) is not instructed to physically fight even the worst:


“(They are) listeners of a lie, devourers of what is forbidden; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you in any way; and if you judge, judge between them with equity; surely Allah loves those who judge equitably.”


Qur’an 5:42


You rely on one verse (which does not actually mean what you want it to) to cancel the entire overwhelming message of the Qur’an.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Yeezevee thinks that extra-Qur'anic sources are relevant to the point that was irrelevant to the first point he responded to.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

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MesMorial
Why do you keep asking about circumcision when I told you it is not in the Qur’an. You make yourself look dumb again. Defend him someone.

So why don’t all females get circumcised?
Hmm., you don't know this
There is, however, a more authentic Hadeeth in which Prophet Muhammad (P) is reported to have passed by a woman performing circumcision on a young girl. He instructed the woman by saying:
"Cut off only the foreskin (outer fold of skin over the clitoris; the prepuce) but do not cut off deeply (i.e. the clitoris itself), for this is brighter for the face (of the girl) and more favorable with the husband." [8]

....While the Prophet (P) did not explicitly ban this practice, his words project a great deal of sensitivity to the instinctive needs of females and their matrimonal happiness and legitimate enjoyment. Reference to the brightness of the face and to better relationship with the husband are clear indications of his sensitivity and compassion.....
well you come from different of the Islamic world where FGM may not take place.. But let me give you thinks to scan through these links dear MesMorial

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/view ... 02a1#40785" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum2/view ... ght=africa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Spoiler! :
GHANA

- 17.500.000 inhab.
statistic: 1% Atheist or agnostic, 18% Deists, 35% Animists, 13% Syncretics (min.), 16% Protestant, 9% Catholic, 7% Muslim... it is not possible to evaluate in the three last groups the number of syncretics (if there are).
- FMG or ablation: 30%, Northerner tribes.

NIGERIA

- 114.600.000 inhab.

- statistic: 1% Atheist or Agnostic, 1% Deist, 17% Christian or muslim deist, 11% Syncretic (African churches), 5% Animist, 11% "pseudo-Sikh" (Muslim with reincarnation), 24% Muslim, 11% Neodoukhobor, 13% Protestant, 7% Catholic...

- Abotions: 25.4; Ratio 12%.
- FGM: 40%.

EGYPT

- 59.200.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 90% Muslim, 7% Coptic Christianity.
- Abortion: 23; Ratio 15.7%.
- FGM: 97%, comprising both religious communities.

SUDAN

- 31.050.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 70-74.5% Muslim, 20-17% Animist, 5% Catholic and 5% Protestant (10%), or in other statistics 8%.
- FGM: 89%,

ETHIOPIA

- 58.800.000 inhab.
- New statistic: 31.5% muslim syncretism, 52.5% ethiopian syncretism, 11.5% pure Traditional African Religion.
- FGM: 85%.

ERITREA

- 3.600.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 49-50% Christian Orthodox (Monophysites - Copts), 49-50% Muslim; Animist practices (2%).
- FGM: 90%.

ZAIRE(NOWADAYS DEMOCRATIC REP. CONGO)

- 45.000.000 inhab.
- New statistic: limited percentage on strict Christians (5% ?), Islam 2%, animist 10%, and rest Syncretic: 83% (?)
- FGM prevalence: 5%.

UGANDA

- 19.800.000 inhab.
- Possible statistic: 4% Catholic, 4% Anglican, 2% Muslim, 14% muslim syncretic, 58% christian syncretic or "Christo-pagan", 18% pure animist.
- FGM: 5%

MAURITANIA

- 2.300.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 97% Muslim.
- FGM: 25%.

SENEGAL

- 8.500.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 95% Islam, 5% Christianity.
- FGM: 20%.

GAMBIA

- 1.100.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 85% Muslim, 10% Christian.
- FGM: 80%.

GUINEA BISSAU

- 1.000.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 60% Animist, 30% Muslim, 8% Christian.
- FGM: 50%.

GUINEA

- 6.700.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 95% Muslim, others are Animists and Christians.
- FGM: 60%.


MALI

- 9.900.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 85.3% Muslim, 12% Animist, 2.7% Christian (Bethany.com)
- FGM: 94%.


NIGER

- 9.300.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 91.2% Muslim, 8.5 Ethnic religionist, 0.3% Christian.
- FGM: 20%, only in some regions.


SOMALIA

- 9.800.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: Islam, 98%.
- FGM: 98%. Worst here, because the most common type of ablation is infibulation: removal of all sexual parts, and after it is left a little orifice to urinate, sewing the "entrance" with thorns or sticks. In the wedding it is reopened with a knife or a sharp object, but after each childbirth the vagina is partially re-infibulated again to leave a tight sex, thus her husband will have more pleasure.

SIERRA LEONA

- 4.600.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 8-10% Christian, 30-39-60% Muslim. (The percentage not displayed means usually animism).
- FGM: 90%.

LIBERIA

- 2.800.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 10% Christian, 20-30% Muslim.
- FGM: 60%.

BURKINA FASSO

- 10.600.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 10-12% Christian, 25-43% Muslim.
- FGM: 70%.


IVORY COAST

- 14.700.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 20% Christians, 20-27% Muslims; or 38% Muslim, 21% Catholic, 17% Animist, 13.5% Atheist and 5.3%
Protestant.
- FGM: 43%.

TOGO

- 4.200.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 28.5-35% Christian ( where 21.5% as Catholic and 7% as Protestant), 15-12% Muslim, above all in the
northern regions.
- FGM: 50%, in Northern areas.

BENIN

- 5.600.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 20% Christian, 12-15% Muslim, in the north.
- FGM: 50%, in Northern regions.

CHAD

- 6.600.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 30-33% Christian (proportion one out of three as Protestant), 44-50% Muslim.
- FGM: 60%.


CAMEROON

- 13.800.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 50% Christian, divided in 33-35% Catholics and 17-18% Protestants, 22% Muslim.
- FGM: 20%, in the North.

CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC

- 3.300.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 35-50% Christian, 8-15% Muslim.
- FGM: 43%.


KENYA

- 27.300.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 63-77% Christian with these percentages: 26-28% Catholic, 19-37-38% Protestant, 11-27% Syncretic Churches, 6% Muslim.
- FGM: 50%, not practiced in all districts.

TANZANIA

- 30.400.000 inhabitants.
- Statistics: 40-46% Christian (where the 33% Catholic and the 13% Protestant), 33-35% Muslim, in the coastal zones.
- Ablation: 10%, North-Eastern regions.
I am sure you what FGM means don't you dear MesMorial

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