Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

@mesmorial

You accuse me of not reading quran . The first thing is I dont claim to be an expert but it seems that you do think you have read the quran and know everything so please answer the verses that I brought in the spoiler.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

One more thing. This guy is evasive. He claims that quran describes the fundamental positions like bowing,standing ,prostrating so according to him as long as he obeys any of the combination of these 3 stances it shouldnt be a problem.If we are to buy this explanation of his then we would be seeing 100 's different practices in muslim prayers.

The fact is we have standard or uniform prayers . If his understanding of the verse was correct or if his theory was correct then
how come we have uniform practices then? This practice certainly cant be wrong as muslims have been praying since last 1400 years ,365 days a year ,5 times a day.If we are to say that this practice is fabricated then it would be insult to human intelligence .

There are differences between shia and sunni muslim prayers but they arent major. They are minor differences.Most of the things are common between Shia and sunni prayers .WE cant be finding a common practice if any damn combination of above 3 fundamental positions was allowed. This proves that this practice must have come from muhammad himself.In that case this practice is the real practice prescribed by religion of islam but we dont find this in the quran and hence quran is incomplete with respect to this practice.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

piscohot
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by piscohot »

skynightblaze wrote:One more thing. This guy is evasive. He claims that quran describes the fundamental positions like bowing,standing ,prostrating so according to him as long as he obeys any of the combination of these 3 stances it shouldnt be a problem.If we are to buy this explanation of his then we would be seeing 100 's different practices in muslim prayers.
it's easier AFTER you have been following the hadiths for generations, to interpret these practices into vague quran verses.

that's how honest these people are.
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

piscohot wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:One more thing. This guy is evasive. He claims that quran describes the fundamental positions like bowing,standing ,prostrating so according to him as long as he obeys any of the combination of these 3 stances it shouldnt be a problem.If we are to buy this explanation of his then we would be seeing 100 's different practices in muslim prayers.
it's easier AFTER you have been following the hadiths for generations, to interpret these practices into vague quran verses.

that's how honest these people are.
Exactly!. but even if we are to assume that any combination of 3 fundamental positions was allowed then we would have seen different muslims following different ways of praying in these last 1400 years.The fact that all these years we have a unique combination of 3 fundamental positions i,e the current way of praying is a proof that its the only way to offer your prayers and hence its the only valid way of offering prayers. Any other combination of those positions is invalid otherwise we would seeing almost every single muslim offering prayers differently in the last 1400 years.Once we establish that its the only way to offer prayers then we can easily see quran is incomplete with respect to details of these 3 positions.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Regarding 16:44


“With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.”

Bialbayyinati waalzzuburi waanzalna ilayka alththikra LITUBAYYINA lilnnasi ma nuzzila ilayhim walaAAallahum yatafakkaroona

Qur'an 16:44


“And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.”

Wa-ith akhatha Allahu meethaqa allatheena ootoo alkitaba LATUBAYYINUNNAHU lilnnasi wala taktumoonahu fanabathoohu waraa thuhoorihim waishtaraw bihi thamanan qaleelan fabi/sa ma yashtaroona

Qur’an 3:187


Notice latubayyininnahu (make known) is similar to the word (make clear) in 16:44. Obviously the instruction in 16:44 is to make clear (proclaim) the ayat because they are already defined as clear in the first part of the verse…


“Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.”

Qur’an 75-17-19


http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 5&verse=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


“These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?”

Qur’an 45:6


***


Regarding 62:2

The word for sanctify is wayuzakkīhim which means to purify. Also he is purifying the people, and not the ayat………………………

See 9:103 (same word):

“Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”


Qur’an 9:103

Muhammad (SAW) brings the signs (ayat) and with them their innate wisdom contained in the acts of purification (salat, alms-giving etc.) The Prophet performs each of these things by delivering the Book which is the “wisdom”:

“This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away.”

(Thalika mimma awha ilayka rabbuka mina ALHIKMATI wala tajAAal maAAa Allahi ilahan akhara fatulqa fee jahannama malooman madhooran)


Teaching the book is telling the book’s contents so that people can remember and record…

There is no need for an external revelation and nor is there any in the Qur’an. Keep looking.
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WittyBoy
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by WittyBoy »

iffo wrote: How children look like depends on chromosomes. Not on who ejaculates first like your stupid hadith says.
My answer was very clear, here's it again:
WittyBoy wrote:I asked you to bring the true fact and then show how this one is wrong, you can't refuse a fact without proving it wrong, depending on what you refused it, depending on a scientific research? or just because it's a hadith?
Moving right along
To more defeats isA.
Book 037, Number 6668:

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. (As far as I think), Abu Raub said: I do not know as to who is in doubt. Abu Burda said: I narrated it to 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, whereupon he said: Was it your father who narrated it to you from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him)? I said: Yes.
In the next time, you have to write which book this hadith from.

The prophet didn't say all Muslims, they are a group from Muslims, and do Muslims deserve this forgiveness? Yes with Allah's mercy, do Jews and Christians deserve this punishment? Yes, because they were the nearest people to believe in Islam. However, they didn't. Another interpretation, maybe they were the reason behind these sins, and they deluded this group of Muslims and made them do these sins, we have a rule says that who makes another one do a misdeed, it's assigned to both of them, but in this situation Allah forgave which believed on Him, and of course didn't forgive which didn't.
Sahih Moslem and Bukhari:

Abu Hurayra said, the prophet said:

"When the call for prayer is made, Satan turns around to leave while farting very loudly so that he would not hear the Azan (call for prayer), When Azan is finished Satan returns back.
You think satan farts :*)
This is kind of abasement, fool. Here's a part from this chapter carries different meaning of the Satan's behavior during the call of the prayer.
Sahih Muslim
Chapter 6
THE EXCELLENCE OF ADHAN AND RUNNING AWAY OF THE SATAN ON HEARING IT

Book 004, Number 0751:

Abu Sufyan reported it on the authority of Jabir that he had heard the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: When Satan hears the call to prayer, he runs away to a distance like that of Rauha. Sulaimin said: I asked him about Rauha. He replied: It is at a distance of thirty-six miles from Medina.

Book 004, Number 0753:

AbuHuraira reported the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: When Satan hears the call to prayer, he turns back and breaks the wind so as not to bear the call being made, but when the call is finished he turns round and distracts (the minds of those who pray), and when he bears the Iqama he again runs away so as not to hear its voice and when it subsides, he comes back and distracts (the minds of those who stand for prayer).

Book 004, Number 0754:

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When the Mu'adhdhin calls to prayer, Satan runs back vehemently.
Sahih Moslem, Book 39, Number 6707:

Abu Hurayra said "The messenger of God took me by the hand and said, God created the soil on Saturday, the mountains on Sunday, the trees on Monday, the abominations on Tuesday,, the light on Wednesday, the animals on Thursday, and Adam on Friday afternoon."
God also have these days sunday/monday like men has with same names :*)
When Allah do something on earth, so it can be obviously measured by the earth measurement, but when Allah talks about something outside the earth, it is subject to other measurements. For example,

He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning. [As-Sajda:5]
Problems #1 , #2

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

yeezevee wrote:Wonderful to read that 19ers org Quran only MesMorial very actively in ffi., How are you doing dear MesMorial?? So exams are over??
MesMorial wrote:
Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. 7:33
Spoiler! :
Would you like to put your hands on your head while praying? That is between you and Allah (SWT) but if it helps you to concentrate then who knows. I personally clasp my hands like the others since it keeps them still.
Here is the first mistake that you committed and that’s why you end up drawing wrong conclusions. You said praying 5 times is illogical.
I said that interpreting 5 prayers is illogical. To say it is obligatory is to me illogical (unless someone explains otherwise). The Qur'an instructs us to vie with each other in good works, and so to pray the five cannot be harmful. To assign a religious law outside the Qur'an is shirk.

P.S. I understand you are programmed to say these things.
That 7.33 is a good one., is that translations from Rashad Khalifa ??., I like his guru Shakir's translation., let me put that here
007.033: Say: My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.
Good stuff

Indeed "forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret....".There are many questions to ask on that Allah statement dear MesMorial. After all you are student , You must learn to ask question to and the stagnation.. So let us see.,

1 Q: I wonder do you any religious text book that was there before the birth of Muhammad that says
Ohyee followers of God I allow all shameful deeds, whether open or secret...."., Did you read something like that in any book forget religious?? If you didn't, such statement are not a big deal..

My next point is.. more complex.. Let me put down some verses here
O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

066.002: Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.

066.003: And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

066.004: If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

066.005: Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.


033.004: Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons; these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way.


033.006: The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.

033.032: O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.

033.033: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying

033.037: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
I can add more of such verses from Quran. Do you think they are words of Allah/God ??

MesMorial reading those verses above and reading Allah words from that 7.33 "forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret...." Do you see any shameful deeds of Prophet for using Allah to his sexual needs??

Well let use some questioning an some commonsense to analyze the Quran..

with best regards
yeezevee
Yeezevee attacks but he does not realise it. Firstly he assumes I use unreliable translations (mostly I use Shakir but this is Y.Ali) and then proceeds to demonstrate something irrelevant (for the sake of being against me) – namely that because it is unlikely that there is a book allowing us to commit sin and rebellion without justice, this verse is not unique. This is beside the point and an irrelevant response.

A better translation for 33:6 is “The Prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves…” Shakir is not always the best.

66:1-5 are quite moral because secrecy in the family (from both the male and female) leads to intrigue. How is this sexually immoral? They are not slaves.

The immorality of the rest would need to be expounded to make a point in these contexts.

Peace to you.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:@mesmorial

You accuse me of not reading quran . The first thing is I dont claim to be an expert but it seems that you do think you have read the quran and know everything so please answer the verses that I brought in the spoiler.
Done.


Regarding the postions of salat, the order is specified:

"And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying: Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves."

Qur'an 22:26


As I have demonstrated there is no specific length of prayer. Merely the appropriate recitations and the movement. It would be meaningless to bow and prostrate without reciting at each stage, although the Qur'an merely tells us to proclaim the praise of ONE God. Furthermore you keep raising the point of tradition. If Muhammad prayed in that way and five times then that was what he did. He was neither pefect nor God. What the others do is their choice and again not all of it can be valid. During group prayer each person would most likely pray for the same amount of time because one person would lead it.

Now beyond what I have said it does not matter how we pray:

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:Well you guys are circumsized when you are babies so its not a personal matter decided by man and his wife as you claim.Only muslims circumsize their kids. People from other religions usually wont do such practices. This practice is associated with your religion and its because Muhammad was circumcised.Just tell me why every single muslim is circumcised if its not at all associated with the religion of islam? To justify this practice you need the hadiths..
We (Qur’an-only Muslims) are circumcised? If it is a religious matter then show me the verse from the Qur’an. You say “only Muslims circumcise their kids”, but your Wikipedia article states otherwise.
First of all I didnt bring that wikipedia link otherwise I would not have made that wrong statement.Fine I didn’t know other people are also circumcised but there is still a problem here..

(25:2)
He created everything in exact measure; He precisely designed everything

If you circumcise you are actually believing that this verse is false.If circumcision is required then it would mean everything isn’t precisely designed by Allah so now actually it’s a problem for you if you are circumcised.Your quran is against you then why the hell did you circumcise? Its because its in the sunna or the tradition. There is simply no other excuse for this.

So tell me again why are you circumcised?
MesMorial wrote:Following ahadith is also a personal choice (excepting under the duress of man-made law). If it is recommended in the sunna that a male be circumcised, is this different for females?
Female circumcision is also mentioned in the sunna. I placed a link to answering islam;s article. You can view that article.It has the hadiths.
MesMorial wrote:
Many events have historical significance, such as Adolf Hitler being denied entry into art school. Humans write about these, and hence we have history.

However the Qur’an is not a history textbook and likewise recognises that humanity has some knowledge of the surroundings and context, as well as how to count to twelve (do the ahadith have details on everything?)
If quran is not a history textbook then why the hell does it keep on repeating the stories of past prophets? Repeating stories from previous scripture is nothing but talking about history.

Btw counting nos is easy and that’s a valid assumption for the author of quran to make that people would be knowing how to count nos but how can every single person be expected to know about battle of Badr? This comparison is fallacious.

Is it really a common knowledge like knowing nos ? Ask how many non muslims who have never studied islam know about Battle of Badr. This comparison is ridiculous .

[006:038]
There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.


So finally is this verse false then? It says that it has omitted NOTHING! NOTHING MEANS NOTHING and hence you shouldnt try playing any games here .The verse says we have covered EVERYTHING but you insist otherwise.

As far as are concerned they don’t cover every detail but they make sure that the reader understand what is written in them unlike quran.Finally hadiths dont claim to be written by God so they can be excused even if they fail to explain details of something that they mention but quran cant because it claims to be divine.Even a man made book like hadith is more clear and helps in understanding quran.

The point is if something is mentioned in the quran it warrants an explanation or else its simply useless to mention that thing.Have you ever seen any well known author doing such things like throwing some terminology in the book and not bothering to explain them?Thats bad authorship.Needless to say that even a man can write a better book than quran and the author of quran can be anyone but definitely not God.
MesMorial wrote:
What if it was an offensive war?
“And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.”
2:190
The significance of this battle was historical. The significance of the verses mentioning the battle is simply to demonstrate that Allah (SWT) will help the true believers. He would not have helped an aggressor, as clearly stated.
Boy o boy so man fallacies within a 2-3 lines…lets see them one by one..

1)Well where is the word of Battle Of badr here in 2:190? This is no mention of that word.You know that it refers to battle of Badr through sources other than quran so again the hadiths!.

2)There are plenty of other verses in the quran which tell us that true believers will be helped.There was no need of packaging terms like Battle of Badr in these verses only to convey the same message again .Its useless in that case.Remember this verse is applicable even today so the only message for you is Allah will help the true believers but that’s redundancy because quran has repeated this message across other verses.

3)Thirdly you selectively quote verses from quran to justify your point. You book also has offensive verses.. Let me put one of them here.

[009:029]
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The first thing is this verse contains the word disbeliever and not any specific tribe.Secondly this cannot be in any way be termed as self defense. In self defense you fight to protect yourself and not to make others believe in islam. Fighting so that people believe in Allah and the last day isn’t called self defense!

The verse clearly says that muslims are to fight the disbelievers until they accept the religion of islam so don’t even try to play acrobatics here.

So the question is how can we be sure that Muhammad was fighting a righteous battle? This even gets worse when we see the verse 3:13 which you quoted.
MesMorial wrote: The validity of Muhammad (SAW) is the complete Qur’an. He recited it and thus was the good example for humanity. He did not speak of his own desire.
Dude how in the world can you make such statements? Quran telling us that its pure cannot be taken as a proof. Its like a criminal under trial giving his own testimony as the only proof so that he can be declared innocent.Law doesn’t work that way.You need proofs other than yourself.

Quran saying its authentic and Muhammad is a good example is a ludicrous claim unless we can verify that with some other account or else its blind belief.How do we really know that muhammad was an example unless we know about muhammads life in details? This requires studying hadiths.
MesMorial wrote:3:13 mentions the same battle, and though you will wonder how we know, the purpose of this verse is self-explanatory:

“There has already been for you a Sign in the two armies that met (in combat): One was fighting in the cause of Allah, the other resisting Allah; these saw with their own eyes Twice their number. But Allah doth support with His aid whom He pleaseth. In this is a warning for such as have eyes to see.”
Again I see no mention of the word Battle of Badr. You get this ideas from sources other than quran so again you do depend on other sources.Secondly your own verse is a proof that we must look for sources other than quran to verify muhammads character .. See how..

Read the part in red. IT says one was fighting in Allahs cause . This refers to muslims and the other party was RESISTING ALLAH'S CAUSE.. Has anyone ever seen someone resisting when he/she is offensive? You resist only in self defense and not in aggressive wars or offensive wars so from this verse itself its clear that Muhammad was on the offensive and the other party was fighting for self defense because they were RESISTING ALLAHS CAUSE.

This is a good reason for someone to actually know what Battle of Badr was and with whom Muhammad was fighting and why. We need to know its significance and hence the hadiths.

MesMorial wrote: Likewise, if you were considering converting, you would be submitting to Allah (SWT) and not to Muhammad (SAW). He was the messenger and he fulfilled his mission.
First of all I cant even think of converting to islam because your book is full of criminal acts and there is nothing intelligent in it and it has tons of errors in it.Btw what if quran only told you follow Muhammad? Your argument doesn’t hold water in that case.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

With regards to your astonishment as to how it is that Muslims today pray uniformly, the question you want to be asking is how is it that Bukhari has had so much influence because remember there were varied ways that Muhammad (SAW) prayed and most probably there were not Muslims from Indonesia etc. in Muhammad's (SAW) vicinity. Therefore the influence is not just Muhammad (SAW).
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Brendalee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Brendalee »

MesMorial wrote:
Brendalee wrote:Are you not programmed to believe the words of a self-proclaimed creator who is supposedly incomparible to anything and yet bears a striking similarity to HUMANS? Al wala wal bara...Allah HATES like a human, gets ANGRY like a human, shows a HUMAN interest in Mohammad's sex life and marital affairs, is bloodthirsty like the worst human killer, and LIES like a human - even to his own prophet (Quran 8:43).

How curious that you accuse OTHERS of being "programmed".

If Allah lies to his own prophet, what makes you think he would not lie to any Muslim? If Allah confesses himself to be a LIAR, how do you know he is a creator? How do you believe anything the Quran says?

Perhaps there is a God. Perhaps he has made a hell.

Perhaps you will meet Allah one day, and perhaps it will be like this:



:dev: HAHAHAHAHAHA! FOOL! I even TOLD you I was a liar! HAHAHAHAHA!
Programmed to say these things because my responses don’t seem to be understood nor are the obvious Qur’anic principles (from snb’s desperate questions). Programmed since you can’t control your emotions and start spouting venom throughout the forum blinded by your preconceptions of those who follow the Qur’an as guide. No-one here is interested in truth; skynightblaze wants to prove that I need hadiths so that he can feel good about himself because he wishes to believe that to be Muslim you must believe in stoning etc. He wants to believe that Muslims are bad, proved by his unprovoked behaviour. He wants to believe it and no matter what anyone here says it is an obvious psychological fact. He is insecure. Yeezevee welcomes me to the forum and now begins to prove himself fake by attacking me knowing I have not attacked him and failing to see that skynightblaze’s questions (proving that he has not read the Qur’an) and the way they are asked are completely preconceived and missing the point. So that is what I meant by programmed. And you could not control your little temper since you wanted in on the feeding-frenzy too. I do not need to quote the Qur’an to prove you wrong because regardless of what is or is not you must look at yourselves first. Who are you to say a Muslim is worse than another? Do you judge a person or the belief? What do you believe? It does not matter since you have already demonstrated your tolerance for those of other faiths. Do you EXPECT people to be agnostic? Can people believe what they like provided they don’t force their views? I saw something about that mentioned between The Cat and sknynightblaze earlier in the forum but then I know that some people have to believe that Muslims are bad or else they would have nothing to argue with. It would leave them empty and envious of those who can understand faith. They understand humanity more than you. But it is good for the people here to laugh at those who likewise use their religion as an ego-boost because it justifies whatever other philosophy they hold to. For instance if I have to get amusement out of posting those pictures then I would much rather be a Muslim. Understand?

Peace to you.
As entertaining as your response is, it does not address the points I raised in my post. Kindly scroll back and re-read it and respond to the points raised. THEN, if you would like to class your tirade above as a "point" raised, I will respond to it.
My post, however, came first in this exchange between us, and your "response" does not address the issues raised.

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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: First of all bringing bible into the equation wont help your case as I suppose that you muslims believe that its corrupted .
Read my 2 posts to Ahmed Bahgat where I have refuted these arguments of quran prescribing 5 prayers so we need hadiths for 5 prayers.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7991&p=129042&hilit=noon#p129042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So do you pray merely by standing and prostration? How does one prostrate exactly? This is not given in the quran.Muslims bend on their knees bow down completely with their forehead touched to the ground. They also have a special position of hands. Where does quran explain all this? Well merely saying standing or bowing down doesn’t do the job. How does bow down? That needs explanation.

As I said I personally only see three obligatory prayers in the Qur’an but if someone wishes to interpret the five then that is their choice (although it is illogical).
You are correct. Tell that to every Quran only person here.
MesMorial wrote: It is not forbidden to pray five times although its origin in hadith is not acceptable to me (the Mi’raj).
Why not? And, are only parts of the night journey unacceptable to you or is the entire story to be discarded?
MesMorial wrote: I stand, bow and prostrate in accordance with the other Muslims (because it is in accordance with the Qur’an and provides most aptly the opportunity for appropriate recitation at different stages). It would inevitably be quite similar since the prayer is composed of three fundamental positions. As long as you do these parts praising Allah (SWT) then you have prayed. There must be at least two prostrations as implied in 4:102:


“And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you.”


It is known from the Qur’an 4:101 that prayer can be shortened in the case of an enemy being nearby and hence the shortest prayer includes one prostration.

Some will say that the shortening involves length and not the rak’at number. However this is vague and not in keeping with the Qur’an:


“Surely your Lord knows that you pass in prayer nearly two-thirds of the night, and (sometimes) half of it, and (sometimes) a third of it, and (also) a party of those with you; and Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you are not able to do it, so He has turned to you (mercifully), therefore read what is easy of the Quran.”

73:20


There is no specific length for one unit (contrary to tradition) and therefore the shortening of prayer refers to units.

You ask how to bow down and prostrate…

The placement of the hands on the knees is natural if you wish to bow down low and not dangle your arms.

The prostration position we see today is most appropriate since it presents one in a state of willing submission (bowed and kneeled in a dignified ease from which we may raise ourselves (hence implying voluntariness or else it would be little different to lying in bed)).

How would you prostrate to God?


The hand movement (raf‘ al-yadayn) is irrelevant unless we wish to designate ahadith as a source of religious law.
Correct, the hadiths would be needed.

MesMorial wrote: http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f16/ ... dein-5264/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Sahih Sunan Abu Dawud Book 3, Number 0921:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

"The Prophet (SAW) said: 'Kill the two black things during prayer, the snake and scorpion.'"


It is not something that interests me particularly since Sunnis etc. rely on a hadith wherein it is alleged that Muhammad (SAW) said to pray exactly as he did. However this leads to contradicting the Qur’an:


Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.

17:110


Two of the five traditionalist prayers are silent.

Furthermore Muhammad (SAW) would never have concluded his prayer by addressing himself in second person and thus the prayer that you wish me to imitate is invalid.


I hope this answers your first question.


Allah Hafiz
Well, it raises a few. You say that Muhammad would never address himself in second person form. But we see funny forms all over the where Allah refers to himself as "Allah" or "We" and "Us" rather than "I" as would be appropriate. i understand the concept of majestic plural, but I'm not completely convinced the Quran is actually using that.

Then there's the odd switching of the person's form in the middle of the sentence, like switching from first person to third person. This is explained as iltifat (or something like that), a poetic technique designed to keep the user's attention. I don't know why that's supposed to keep someone's attention rather than confuse them, but whatever, that's beside the point.

Then we have this peculiar "Say:" added to a lot of verses like the one you quoted because if we didn't, it would sound like it's Muhammad talking. Well guess what. It turns out that it WAS Muhammad talking the whole time because he slipped up in the following verses.

9:30. And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Sura 9 is a pretty "angry" Sura to say the least, and I think that Muhammad was whipped up into such a frenzy, that he briefly forgot who it was that was supposed to be talking. i can't think of any other reasonable explanation. And then, what's odd is that he does it again.

63:4. And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?

I can't understand how Muslims either missed this or simply ignore it. It's glaring.

So getting back to your point about how Muhammad would never refer to himself in second person, we really don't know that at all at this point. Especially if we look at the oddity of 72 which keeps on flipping back and forth between Allah being the speaker and the jinn being the speaker in a completely unexplained and almost schizophrenic fashion. So after We, Us, Say, 72, 9:30 and 63:4, we really don't know who is actually speaking in the Quran anymore.
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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:
Spoiler! :
]Regarding 16:44


“With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.”

Bialbayyinati waalzzuburi waanzalna ilayka alththikra LITUBAYYINA lilnnasi ma nuzzila ilayhim walaAAallahum yatafakkaroona

Qur'an 16:44


“And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.”

Wa-ith akhatha Allahu meethaqa allatheena ootoo alkitaba LATUBAYYINUNNAHU lilnnasi wala taktumoonahu fanabathoohu waraa thuhoorihim waishtaraw bihi thamanan qaleelan fabi/sa ma yashtaroona

Qur’an 3:187


Notice latubayyininnahu (make known) is similar to the word (make clear) in 16:44. Obviously the instruction in 16:44 is to make clear (proclaim) the ayat because they are already defined as clear in the first part of the verse…


“Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.
Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.”

Qur’an 75-17-19


http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 5&verse=19" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


“These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?”

Qur’an 45:6


***


Regarding 62:2

The word for sanctify is wayuzakkīhim which means to purify. Also he is purifying the people, and not the ayat………………………

See 9:103 (same word):

“Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.”


Qur’an 9:103

Muhammad (SAW) brings the signs (ayat) and with them their innate wisdom contained in the acts of purification (salat, alms-giving etc.) The Prophet performs each of these things by delivering the Book which is the “wisdom”:

“This is of what your Lord has revealed to you of wisdom, and do not associate any other god with Allah lest you should be thrown into hell, blamed, cast away.”

(Thalika mimma awha ilayka rabbuka mina ALHIKMATI wala tajAAal maAAa Allahi ilahan akhara fatulqa fee jahannama malooman madhooran)


Teaching the book is telling the book’s contents so that people can remember and record…

There is no need for an external revelation and nor is there any in the Qur’an. Keep looking.
First of all your response doesnt address all the verses.You cant deny that all those the quranic verses(16:44,62:2 etc) apply to you as well i,e modern day muslims. Those verses clearly tell that muhammad is supposed to instruct people and clarify the quran .In such case how in the world can Muhammad instruct you guys when he is no longer today? Muhammad can only instruct you provided you follow scriptures other than quran which records muhammads sayings .Even if we assume that muhammad is sanctifying people and not the ayat it still doesnt solve the problem .Since these verses are applicable today also, you muslims need to be therefore sanctified and instructed by muhammad . If you guys need to be instructed or sanctified by Muhammad how in the world can you be sanctified unless you follow hadiths?

Btw here is a gift from me to you.

27.92.
And to rehearse the Qur'an: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: "I am only a Warner".


Here its told that Muhammad is only a warner and nothing else i,e he is just supposed to warn about the message and hence muhammad is not supposed to sanctify people as per this verse so we have an internal contradiction if quran is asking muhammad to sanctify people.

Enjoy dude! :lol:
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:@mesmorial

You accuse me of not reading quran . The first thing is I dont claim to be an expert but it seems that you do think you have read the quran and know everything so please answer the verses that I brought in the spoiler.
Done.


Regarding the postions of salat, the order is specified:

"And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying: Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves."

Qur'an 22:26


As I have demonstrated there is no specific length of prayer. Merely the appropriate recitations and the movement. It would be meaningless to bow and prostrate without reciting at each stage, although the Qur'an merely tells us to proclaim the praise of ONE God. Furthermore you keep raising the point of tradition. If Muhammad prayed in that way and five times then that was what he did. He was neither pefect nor God. What the others do is their choice and again not all of it can be valid. During group prayer each person would most likely pray for the same amount of time because one person would lead it.

Now beyond what I have said it does not matter how we pray:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENHn2Wmz ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A simple question debunks you. If what you suggest was the real meaning of that verse or if Muhammad wanted people to practice praying by having any possible combination of fundamental positions then how in the world can we have a unique practice of praying all these 1400 years? WE would be finding 100 's of different postures for the prayers. Sorry this doesnt work. One more thing quran isnt superior to logic so bringing quranic verses to refute logic doesnt work.

The verse you brought is no different than previous verses you brought. They fail to answer my simple question.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:With regards to your astonishment as to how it is that Muslims today pray uniformly, the question you want to be asking is how is it that Bukhari has had so much influence because remember there were varied ways that Muhammad (SAW) prayed and most probably there were not Muslims from Indonesia etc. in Muhammad's (SAW) vicinity. Therefore the influence is not just Muhammad (SAW).
Can you substantiate. I am not clear as to what you are saying exactly. AS far as I understood you want to tell that muhammad prayed in various ways other than the way muslims today pray. So please provide proof for that.

Secondly Islam wasnt even dominant in arabia when muhammad died so forget about other countries.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:
Programmed to say these things because my responses don’t seem to be understood nor are the obvious Qur’anic principles (from snb’s desperate questions). Programmed since you can’t control your emotions and start spouting venom throughout the forum blinded by your preconceptions of those who follow the Qur’an as guide. No-one here is interested in truth;
Oh I most certainly am. But the question on my mind is, are you? Let's find out.
MesMorial wrote: skynightblaze wants to prove that I need hadiths so that he can feel good about himself because he wishes to believe that to be Muslim you must believe in stoning etc.
He's properly identifying that you are merely rewriting your religion to suit your sensibilities by getting rid of the clearly embarrassing parts so that you can still hang on to Islam, in the face of all of it's known absurdities. It doesn't need the hadiths to embarrass itself and rarely do I even bother with them. The Quran is more than enough embarrassment if one can even be the slightest bit objective when reading it. But we all know the objectivity is simply impossible for Muslims. That much I've learned
MesMorial wrote: He wants to believe that Muslims are bad, proved by his unprovoked behaviour.
Oh come off of it, will you please?? What is the big deal? If you were offended by the picture, just ignore it. It seemed to me that he was joking more than anything, but when one is ultra uptight, then everything becomes a major offense. Draw Muhammad and you'd think they'd like to light the globe on fire. Seems like everything offends Muslims except the death of kafirs, based on what is loudly protested and what is not.
MesMorial wrote: He wants to believe it and no matter what anyone here says it is an obvious psychological fact. He is insecure.
Actually, it seems like it's you who's "feathers are getting ruffled" very easily. So who's insecure?? If you were secure, you wouldn't bother complaining about the personal aspects of this discussion
MesMorial wrote: Yeezevee welcomes me to the forum and now begins to prove himself fake by attacking me knowing I have not attacked him and failing to see that skynightblaze’s questions (proving that he has not read the Qur’an) and the way they are asked are completely preconceived and missing the point.
Somebody is allowed to ask a question however they want. Why shouldn't they be?? Now, you demand to control what questions are asked or how they are asked?? And you said "preconceived". How can any good question NOT be preconceived?? Of course it's preconceived and that's good because the better thought out the question is, the less time it wastes. I really cannot understand your reasoning in general. You are on a discussion forum, and the general purpose of this forum is to rightly expose all of the flaws in Islam, from it's scientific inaccurracies, it's contradictions, it's violence etc.....so that Muslims can see the light of day and realize that there is life after Islam (if your fellow Muslims don't kill you and then blame it on non Muslims)
MesMorial wrote: So that is what I meant by programmed. And you could not control your little temper since you wanted in on the feeding-frenzy too. I do not need to quote the Qur’an to prove you wrong because regardless of what is or is not you must look at yourselves first.
The way I see it, that's a ditto. :lol: What do they call that in psychology?? Oh yeah, "projection". :lol:
MesMorial wrote: Who are you to say a Muslim is worse than another?
Well then for that matter, who is anybody to say that one human being is worse than another, right??
MesMorial wrote: Do you judge a person or the belief?
The belief.
MesMorial wrote: What do you believe? It does not matter since you have already demonstrated your tolerance for those of other faiths. Do you EXPECT people to be agnostic? Can people believe what they like provided they don’t force their views? I saw something about that mentioned between The Cat and sknynightblaze earlier in the forum but then I know that some people have to believe that Muslims are bad or else they would have nothing to argue with.
Muslims aren't bad, their ideology is bad and their prophet was bad. As I always say when I see a problem or absurdity, it can't be a genetic thing, so it must be an Islamic thing.
MesMorial wrote: It would leave them empty and envious of those who can understand faith.
That's what you think, but the truth of the matter is that they laugh at you as believing in fairy tales and having no better reasoning skills than a child who still believes in fairy tales because he needs to. The child that still carries around his "binkee" :lol: (security blanket)
MesMorial wrote: They understand humanity more than you.
All you are doing is acting in what you believe to be your own self interest. All you are doing is merely reaching for your big reward. What's so sacrificing or special about that?? If you ever did any deep, introspective thinking, you would see that the only difference between you and an agnostic and an atheist, is that you disagree on which way is the best way to ultimately serve yourself. The atheist does other actions rather than serve God because he doesn't think that will produce any reward for him. You think it WILL produce a great reward. But in both cases, you're both the same. You're both merely acting in what you believe to ultimately be your best interests. You may be shocked to find out that this whole time, you were not serving God, you were serving yourself and you merely believe that the best way to serve yourself is to serve Allah. But the human mind hides that part of the equation from itself so that it can get a really good feeling that they are a really good, selfless person deserving of all sorts of rewards. Most people will go the their grave without ever realizing this illusion.
MesMorial wrote: But it is good for the people here to laugh at those who likewise use their religion as an ego-boost because it justifies whatever other philosophy they hold to.
Perhaps somewhat true in some cases, but there's more than that going on. Islam is an aggressive religion, and people are tired of having to listen to it's nonsense, it's protests, it's violence, it's special demands, and it's aggressive, hard coded desire to be the dominant religion, and even attain political rule as well. This isn't Muslims doing this, this is their Quran telling them to do this. So the best way to shut that up is to show them the clear errors in their book and prove it to be a lie. Forget about fighting. It's like the creator of this site Ali Sina said, you don't fight Islam with war, that's ingrained into Islam, they love that. A Muslim never feels so much in glory as when they are fighting the kafir in the way of Allah. It finally gives them a purpose. You fight it with words and clear proofs. All one has to do about Islam is to tell the truth. Use the Quran itself, quote accurately from it and it will expose itself.
MesMorial wrote: For instance if I have to get amusement out of posting those pictures then I would much rather be a Muslim. Understand?

Peace to you.
You are acting just like the stereotypical Muslim. Always serious, always offended, always demanding all sorts of respect for no reason. I love people that "demand" respect. That's ridiculous. Respect cannot be demanded, it can only be earned. If you say intelligent things, you will be respected.
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:@mesmorial

You accuse me of not reading quran . The first thing is I dont claim to be an expert but it seems that you do think you have read the quran and know everything so please answer the verses that I brought in the spoiler.
Done.


Regarding the postions of salat, the order is specified:

"And when We assigned to Ibrahim the place of the House, saying: Do not associate with Me aught, and purify My House for those who make the circuit and stand to pray and bow and prostrate themselves."

Qur'an 22:26


As I have demonstrated there is no specific length of prayer. Merely the appropriate recitations and the movement. It would be meaningless to bow and prostrate without reciting at each stage, although the Qur'an merely tells us to proclaim the praise of ONE God. Furthermore you keep raising the point of tradition. If Muhammad prayed in that way and five times then that was what he did. He was neither pefect nor God. What the others do is their choice and again not all of it can be valid. During group prayer each person would most likely pray for the same amount of time because one person would lead it.

Now beyond what I have said it does not matter how we pray:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENHn2Wmz ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Please see my other questions for you above. Regarding this, if the Quran was not specific about position of prayer and how to pray, among other things, then the assumption has to be that they already understood how to pray or else they would have asked. So they were already specifically shown how to pray and this was also recounted in the hadiths and the Quran was merely reminding them to do this. It's similar to the Quran mentioning Badr as if the audience already knew what it was talking about and that's why it didn't specify.
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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

Muhammad Bin lyin wrote:Please see my other questions for you above. Regarding this, if the Quran was not specific about position of prayer and how to pray, among other things, then the assumption has to be that they already understood how to pray or else they would have asked. So they were already specifically shown how to pray and this was also recounted in the hadiths and the Quran was merely reminding them to do this. It's similar to the Quran mentioning Badr as if the audience already knew what it was talking about and that's why it didn't specify.
Yes hadiths tell us that Muhammad used to lead the prayer so the source of this practice is muhammad .Unless it was authority like muhammad sanctioning some practice, this practice would never become uniform otherwise we would be finding 100 ;s of combinations of the 3 fundamental positions(bowing,standing , prostration) with different position of hands ,legs ,head etc etc but we dont which means this practice must have been sanctioned by some recognized authority and hadiths indicate that muhammad used to lead the prayers so the source of this practice is muhammad.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

skynightblaze wrote:
Muhammad Bin lyin wrote:Please see my other questions for you above. Regarding this, if the Quran was not specific about position of prayer and how to pray, among other things, then the assumption has to be that they already understood how to pray or else they would have asked. So they were already specifically shown how to pray and this was also recounted in the hadiths and the Quran was merely reminding them to do this. It's similar to the Quran mentioning Badr as if the audience already knew what it was talking about and that's why it didn't specify.
Yes hadiths tell us that Muhammad used to lead the prayer so the source of this practice is muhammad .Unless it was authority like muhammad sanctioning some practice, this practice would never become uniform otherwise we would be finding 100 ;s of combinations of the 3 fundamental positions(bowing,standing , prostration) with different position of hands ,legs ,head etc etc but we dont which means this practice must have been sanctioned by some recognized authority and hadiths indicate that muhammad used to lead the prayers so the source of this practice is muhammad.

And the important part is that the knew this BEFORE the Quran mentioned it, which is why the Quran didn't need to be specific as it was only reminding them. And the hadiths gathered knowledge of where these prayer rituals came from, but everybody already knew them and practiced them before they were merely gathered into the hadiths.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

To refute Bahgat who claims that 4:59 refers to obeying men of authority like police ,president etc and not men of authority in matter of religion here is the verse ..

[004:083]
When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Apostle, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of God unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.


Now this verse is clearly telling us how men of authority are to obeyed. It clearly was some religious matter and hence the verse is saying that one should have contacted muhammad or the men of authority. So there is another verse asking muslims to refer to hadiths.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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