Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote: First of all bringing bible into the equation wont help your case as I suppose that you muslims believe that its corrupted .
Read my 2 posts to Ahmed Bahgat where I have refuted these arguments of quran prescribing 5 prayers so we need hadiths for 5 prayers.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7991&p=129042&hilit=noon#p129042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So do you pray merely by standing and prostration? How does one prostrate exactly? This is not given in the quran.Muslims bend on their knees bow down completely with their forehead touched to the ground. They also have a special position of hands. Where does quran explain all this? Well merely saying standing or bowing down doesn’t do the job. How does bow down? That needs explanation.

As I said I personally only see three obligatory prayers in the Qur’an but if someone wishes to interpret the five then that is their choice (although it is illogical). It is not forbidden to pray five times although its origin in hadith is not acceptable to me (the Mi’raj).

I stand, bow and prostrate in accordance with the other Muslims (because it is in accordance with the Qur’an and provides most aptly the opportunity for appropriate recitation at different stages). It would inevitably be quite similar since the prayer is composed of three fundamental positions. As long as you do these parts praising Allah (SWT) then you have prayed. There must be at least two prostrations as implied in 4:102:


“And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you.”


It is known from the Qur’an 4:101 that prayer can be shortened in the case of an enemy being nearby and hence the shortest prayer includes one prostration.

Some will say that the shortening involves length and not the rak’at number. However this is vague and not in keeping with the Qur’an:


“Surely your Lord knows that you pass in prayer nearly two-thirds of the night, and (sometimes) half of it, and (sometimes) a third of it, and (also) a party of those with you; and Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you are not able to do it, so He has turned to you (mercifully), therefore read what is easy of the Quran.”

73:20


There is no specific length for one unit (contrary to tradition) and therefore the shortening of prayer refers to units.

You ask how to bow down and prostrate…

The placement of the hands on the knees is natural if you wish to bow down low and not dangle your arms.

The prostration position we see today is most appropriate since it presents one in a state of willing submission (bowed and kneeled in a dignified ease from which we may raise ourselves (hence implying voluntariness or else it would be little different to lying in bed)).

How would you prostrate to God?


The hand movement (raf‘ al-yadayn) is irrelevant unless we wish to designate ahadith as a source of religious law.

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f16/ ... dein-5264/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Sahih Sunan Abu Dawud Book 3, Number 0921:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

"The Prophet (SAW) said: 'Kill the two black things during prayer, the snake and scorpion.'"


It is not something that interests me particularly since Sunnis etc. rely on a hadith wherein it is alleged that Muhammad (SAW) said to pray exactly as he did. However this leads to contradicting the Qur’an:


Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.

17:110


Two of the five traditionalist prayers are silent.

Furthermore Muhammad (SAW) would never have concluded his prayer by addressing himself in second person and thus the prayer that you wish me to imitate is invalid.


I hope this answers your first question.


Allah Hafiz
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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

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I will address your remaining queries as I have time. Thankyou for your questions, also.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:Well you guys are circumsized when you are babies so its not a personal matter decided by man and his wife as you claim.Only muslims circumsize their kids. People from other religions usually wont do such practices. This practice is associated with your religion and its because Muhammad was circumcised.Just tell me why every single muslim is circumcised if its not at all associated with the religion of islam? To justify this practice you need the hadiths..
We (Qur’an-only Muslims) are circumcised? If it is a religious matter then show me the verse from the Qur’an. You say “only Muslims circumcise their kids”, but your Wikipedia article states otherwise.

Following ahadith is also a personal choice (excepting under the duress of man-made law). If it is recommended in the sunna that a male be circumcised, is this different for females?

skynightblaze wrote: How can you say Battle of Badr has no significance other than you mentioned. IT does have a significance. AS a person who is reading quran and is in process of learning he needs to know why the prophet of islam had to fight this battle in the first place. What if he was fighting an offensive warfare? I mean his opponents decided to get rid of him because he had attacked them first.These questions need to be answered or else you would be blindly trusting quran.I need to know this information before I come to a conclusion that the battle was indeed essential and that the prophet of islam was indeed fighting a battle in the right sense .

Remember validity of quran depends on this character Muhammad so when some incidents are referenced its essential for us to know what exactly happened during those incidents so that we know whether Muhammad was truly righteous or not. If we come to know that he was a fraud then the whole claim of quran being from God goes down the drain and hence its essential to know details about battle of badr.This is why hadiths are essential.

Lastly you miss an important point.If some incident or an example is mentioned then it should be complete because incidents/examples are mentioned to clarify things or else they are simply useless if they are just brought without giving details.The conclusion that you drew could have been said in a single line and hence to make quran meaningful we need to look into the sources outside quran to make it meaningful.
Many events have historical significance, such as Adolf Hitler being denied entry into art school. Humans write about these, and hence we have history.

However the Qur’an is not a history textbook and likewise recognises that humanity has some knowledge of the surroundings and context, as well as how to count to twelve (do the ahadith have details on everything?)

This verse is addressed to Muhammad (SAW) and the Muslims who followed him. It is direct inspiration derived once more from an event by which his “good example” is conveyed.

What if it was an offensive war?


“And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.”

2:190


The significance of this battle was historical. The significance of the verses mentioning the battle is simply to demonstrate that Allah (SWT) will help the true believers. He would not have helped an aggressor, as clearly stated.

The validity of Muhammad (SAW) is the complete Qur’an. He recited it and thus was the good example for humanity. He did not speak of his own desire.

3:13 mentions the same battle, and though you will wonder how we know, the purpose of this verse is self-explanatory:


“There has already been for you a Sign in the two armies that met (in combat): One was fighting in the cause of Allah, the other resisting Allah; these saw with their own eyes Twice their number. But Allah doth support with His aid whom He pleaseth. In this is a warning for such as have eyes to see.”


Likewise, if you were considering converting, you would be submitting to Allah (SWT) and not to Muhammad (SAW). He was the messenger and he fulfilled his mission.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

Mesmorial wrote: As I said I personally only see three obligatory prayers in the Qur’an but if someone wishes to interpret the five then that is their choice (although it is illogical). It is not forbidden to pray five times although its origin in hadith is not acceptable to me (the Mi’raj).
Here is the first mistake that you committed and that’s why you end up drawing wrong conclusions. You said praying 5 times is illogical.Its simply not because this practice has been in existence since last 1400 years and that too every single day and that too 5 times a day and this practice has been passed down from 1 generation to the other so we can trace this practice back to muhammads time .

It cant happen that all the generations lied and coincidentally all the people in each generation transmitted the same practice.Thats too much of coincidence and fabrication of such a lie is impossible considering the fact that muslims have spread throughout the world.A lie cant be collaborated in that case.

I haven’t even uttered the word hadith here. I have proved it using logic that this practice is logical and correct.

Mesmorial wrote: I stand, bow and prostrate in accordance with the other Muslims (because it is in accordance with the Qur’an and provides most aptly the opportunity for appropriate recitation at different stages)
Do you remember you say that not even Muhammad as an individual is to be followed? When as per you even the prophet of God is not to be obeyed then how can you even claim of obeying any TOM ,DICK and Harry that stands in the prayer hall?
Mesmorial wrote: . It would inevitably be quite similar since the prayer is composed of three fundamental positions. As long as you do these parts praising Allah (SWT) then you have prayed. There must be at least two prostrations as implied in 4:102:

“And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you.”
This can be answered in 2 parts.
1) I have proved above that practice is authentic and has been a official practice of muslims which has come down from your prophet and hence any other position is invalid. If you think the way muslims pray today is unauthentic or a personal practice then please refute my logic.

2) Secondly how can your practice be similar to that of sunni muslims? I can bow down without sitting on my knees. I can put my hands wherever I want . I don’t need to put my forehead on ground while praying according to quran. In such a case how in the world can you say that your practice would be same as other muslims like sunni? There can be a variety of combinations of those fundamental positions and you can end up praying totally different than others.
Mesmorial wrote: It is known from the Qur’an 4:101 that prayer can be shortened in the case of an enemy being nearby and hence the shortest prayer includes one prostration.
Irrelevant to our discussion.
Mesmorial wrote: Some will say that the shortening involves length and not the rak’at number. However this is vague and not in keeping with the Qur’an:


“Surely your Lord knows that you pass in prayer nearly two-thirds of the night, and (sometimes) half of it, and (sometimes) a third of it, and (also) a party of those with you; and Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you are not able to do it, so He has turned to you (mercifully), therefore read what is easy of the Quran.”

73:20


There is no specific length for one unit (contrary to tradition) and therefore the shortening of prayer refers to units.
Again Irrelevant. I did not raise these points so you may skip them.
Mesmorial wrote: You ask how to bow down and prostrate…

The placement of the hands on the knees is natural if you wish to bow down low and not dangle your arms.
First of all who told you to bend on knees ? Prostration could also be lying completely flat on ground. Quran doesn’t say so why in the world do you bend on knees?

And placement of hands on knees is natural? Not necessary I can keep my hands anywhere I wish for e.g I can keep them on my butt,head ..... dot dot stands for your creative imagination :D .

If you are a quran only follower then wherever I place my hands it wouldn’t be against quran and hence acceptable but it defeats the purpose of the prayer.
Mesmorial wrote: The prostration position we see today is most appropriate since it presents one in a state of willing submission (bowed and kneeled in a dignified ease from which we may raise ourselves (hence implying voluntariness or else it would be little different to lying in bed)).

How would you prostrate to God?
A point to be noted is that its not important what you consider appropriate but rather its important what quran considers important. I can defeat the purpose of prayers if I am to follow quran alone as explained above.
Mesmorial wrote:
The hand movement (raf‘ al-yadayn) is irrelevant unless we wish to designate ahadith as a source of religious law.

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f16/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... dein-5264/
So is it acceptable If I show 2 middle fingers while praying like the following image?

Image

You say hand position is irrelevant .Remember when I show 2 middle fingers I aint contradicting the quran at all but that position defeats the very purpose of prayers and yet I wont be wrong If I am to follow quran alone. I leave it to your imagination what can happen if hands can be placed anywhere. Position of hands is therefore important .

Also what about my forehead position?Would it be acceptable if I keep staring at a woman or if I look outside the window when I am praying? It would be Ok as per quran as quran doesn’t mention anything but yet I would be defeating the purpose of prayers and that’s why quran alone is incomplete.

Don’t take what I said as offensive but these are some of the possibilities which can happen during a prayer and this would make praying a joke and hence specific instructions are required while praying which you have received through oral hadiths I,e passed down from 1 generation to other.
Mesmorial wrote: Sahih Sunan Abu Dawud Book 3, Number 0921:
narrated AbuHurayrah:
"The Prophet (SAW) said: 'Kill the two black things during prayer, the snake and scorpion.'"
It is not something that interests me particularly since Sunnis etc. rely on a hadith wherein it is alleged that Muhammad (SAW) said to pray exactly as he did. However this leads to contradicting the Qur’an:
Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.
17:110
Two of the five traditionalist prayers are silent.
First of all your translation is debatable. Majority of translators have translated it as “low voice” rather than silent..see…

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/17/110/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don’t see any contradiction because the verse doesn’t say ALL THE PRAYERS are to be recited . It only uses a singular word prayer so this verse is referring to a specific prayer and definitely NOT ALL PRAYERS otherwise it would have explicitly used the words like ALL PRAYERS.Now as a quran only muslim tell us which prayer is quran talking about here?
Mesmorial wrote:Furthermore Muhammad (SAW) would never have concluded his prayer by addressing himself in second person and thus the prayer that you wish me to imitate is invalid.
???? This point doesn’t make any sense. Muhammad isn’t uttering any prayer in this verse to start with.
Last edited by skynightblaze on Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

@Mesmorial

Lets deal question by question. It would make debating easy. Replying all the arguments at a time is time consuming and stressful .I wont reply to your other reply until we are done with prayers issue
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

The picture you presented shows the type of person you are. Most of what you said was a misinterpretation of what I said, and you have an overgrown online ego. You might also note I am answering your questions one by one which is what you suggested. It is not my responsibility to wait for you to think of something to say (that is logic). However I am busy and you can practice comprehension in the meantime.

Good night, until I reply.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:The picture you presented shows the type of person you are. Most of what you said was a misinterpretation of what I said, and you have an overgrown online ego. You might also note I am answering your questions one by one which is what you suggested. It is not my responsibility to wait for you to think of something to say (that is logic). However I am busy and you can practice comprehension in the meantime.

Good night, until I reply.
These kind of comments are nothing new to me.Show me where I am wrong or else simply shut up!

Btw you take your religion too seriously .Its nothing but a joke and your prophet was a criminal.

I am just mentioning the n number of possibilities that may happen during prayers.If they dont sound proper to you its not my problem but nevertheless these are the possibilities.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: First of all bringing bible into the equation wont help your case as I suppose that you muslims believe that its corrupted .
Read my 2 posts to Ahmed Bahgat where I have refuted these arguments of quran prescribing 5 prayers so we need hadiths for 5 prayers.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7991&p=129042&hilit=noon#p129042" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So do you pray merely by standing and prostration? How does one prostrate exactly? This is not given in the quran.Muslims bend on their knees bow down completely with their forehead touched to the ground. They also have a special position of hands. Where does quran explain all this? Well merely saying standing or bowing down doesn’t do the job. How does bow down? That needs explanation.

As I said I personally only see three obligatory prayers in the Qur’an but if someone wishes to interpret the five then that is their choice (although it is illogical).
You are correct. Tell that to every Quran only person here.
MesMorial wrote: It is not forbidden to pray five times although its origin in hadith is not acceptable to me (the Mi’raj).
Why not? And, are only parts of the night journey unacceptable to you or is the entire story to be discarded?
MesMorial wrote: I stand, bow and prostrate in accordance with the other Muslims (because it is in accordance with the Qur’an and provides most aptly the opportunity for appropriate recitation at different stages). It would inevitably be quite similar since the prayer is composed of three fundamental positions. As long as you do these parts praising Allah (SWT) then you have prayed. There must be at least two prostrations as implied in 4:102:


“And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you.”


It is known from the Qur’an 4:101 that prayer can be shortened in the case of an enemy being nearby and hence the shortest prayer includes one prostration.

Some will say that the shortening involves length and not the rak’at number. However this is vague and not in keeping with the Qur’an:


“Surely your Lord knows that you pass in prayer nearly two-thirds of the night, and (sometimes) half of it, and (sometimes) a third of it, and (also) a party of those with you; and Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that you are not able to do it, so He has turned to you (mercifully), therefore read what is easy of the Quran.”

73:20


There is no specific length for one unit (contrary to tradition) and therefore the shortening of prayer refers to units.

You ask how to bow down and prostrate…

The placement of the hands on the knees is natural if you wish to bow down low and not dangle your arms.

The prostration position we see today is most appropriate since it presents one in a state of willing submission (bowed and kneeled in a dignified ease from which we may raise ourselves (hence implying voluntariness or else it would be little different to lying in bed)).

How would you prostrate to God?


The hand movement (raf‘ al-yadayn) is irrelevant unless we wish to designate ahadith as a source of religious law.
Correct, the hadiths would be needed.

MesMorial wrote: http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f16/ ... dein-5264/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Sahih Sunan Abu Dawud Book 3, Number 0921:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

"The Prophet (SAW) said: 'Kill the two black things during prayer, the snake and scorpion.'"


It is not something that interests me particularly since Sunnis etc. rely on a hadith wherein it is alleged that Muhammad (SAW) said to pray exactly as he did. However this leads to contradicting the Qur’an:


Say: Call upon Allah or call upon, the Beneficent Allah; whichever you call upon, He has the best names; and do not utter your prayer with a very raised voice nor be silent with regard to it, and seek a way between these.

17:110


Two of the five traditionalist prayers are silent.

Furthermore Muhammad (SAW) would never have concluded his prayer by addressing himself in second person and thus the prayer that you wish me to imitate is invalid.


I hope this answers your first question.


Allah Hafiz
Well, it raises a few. You say that Muhammad would never address himself in second person form. But we see funny forms all over the where Allah refers to himself as "Allah" or "We" and "Us" rather than "I" as would be appropriate. i understand the concept of majestic plural, but I'm not completely convinced the Quran is actually using that.

Then there's the odd switching of the person's form in the middle of the sentence, like switching from first person to third person. This is explained as iltifat (or something like that), a poetic technique designed to keep the user's attention. I don't know why that's supposed to keep someone's attention rather than confuse them, but whatever, that's beside the point.

Then we have this peculiar "Say:" added to a lot of verses like the one you quoted because if we didn't, it would sound like it's Muhammad talking. Well guess what. It turns out that it WAS Muhammad talking the whole time because he slipped up in the following verses.

9:30. And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Sura 9 is a pretty "angry" Sura to say the least, and I think that Muhammad was whipped up into such a frenzy, that he briefly forgot who it was that was supposed to be talking. i can't think of any other reasonable explanation. And then, what's odd is that he does it again.

63:4. And when you see them, their persons will please you, and If they speak, you will listen to their speech; (they are) as if they were big pieces of wood clad with garments; they think every cry to be against them. They are the enemy, therefore beware of them; may Allah destroy them, whence are they turned back?

I can't understand how Muslims either missed this or simply ignore it. It's glaring.

So getting back to your point about how Muhammad would never refer to himself in second person, we really don't know that at all at this point. Especially if we look at the oddity of 72 which keeps on flipping back and forth between Allah being the speaker and the jinn being the speaker in a completely unexplained and almost schizophrenic fashion. So after We, Us, Say, 72, 9:30 and 63:4, we really don't know who is actually speaking in the Quran anymore.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

@Mesmorial

I dont disagree what I said is indecent but why I said this is because its necessary to maintain discipline while praying or else its a joke.You claim positioning of hands is irrelevant. ITs relevant because of the n number of possibilities I mentioned . They denigrate the prayer so how in the world can anyone claim that positioning of hands is irrelevant?. Now if you dont have common sense to understand such a simple thing I cant help you. Also please show me what I misunderstood of your posts.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

skynightblaze wrote:
And placement of hands on knees is natural? Not necessary I can keep my hands anywhere I wish for e.g I can keep them on my butt,head ..... dot dot stands for your creative imagination :D
I think the most natural placement of the hands if one's head is touching the ground would be for both hands to also be on the ground next to the head when the head is touching the ground. One would want their hands to buffer their head in order to better control the placement of the head on the ground and prevent one's head from going down to fast and bumping itself.
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
And placement of hands on knees is natural? Not necessary I can keep my hands anywhere I wish for e.g I can keep them on my butt,head ..... dot dot stands for your creative imagination :D
I think the most natural placement of the hands if one's head is touching the ground would be for both hands to also be on the ground next to the head when the head is touching the ground. One would want their hands to buffer their head in order to better control the placement of the head on the ground and prevent one's head from going down to fast and bumping itself.
There can be n no of possibilities. What you said could be a more probable possibility but what this fellow deceptively trying to do is promote a quran only approach and convince us that quran can answer all the questions so the excuse here is that placement of hands is natural.It isnt natural . Specific directions are needed as to where to place the hands or else it could result upto into indecent postures as I mentioned. None would be wrong according to quran but yet that would defeat the very purpose of prayers.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

skynightblaze wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
And placement of hands on knees is natural? Not necessary I can keep my hands anywhere I wish for e.g I can keep them on my butt,head ..... dot dot stands for your creative imagination :D
I think the most natural placement of the hands if one's head is touching the ground would be for both hands to also be on the ground next to the head when the head is touching the ground. One would want their hands to buffer their head in order to better control the placement of the head on the ground and prevent one's head from going down to fast and bumping itself.
There can be n no of possibilities. What you said could be a more probable possibility but what this fellow deceptively trying to do is promote a quran only approach and convince us that quran can answer all the questions so the excuse here is that placement of hands is natural.It isnt natural.
Correct and I offered a clearly more natural and practical placement. So yes, he was trying to slip an assumption in there, and not only was it an assumption, the assumption itself wasn't even correct.
skynightblaze wrote: Specific directions are needed as to where to place the hands or else it could result upto into indecent postures as I mentioned. None would be wrong according to quran but yet that would defeat the very purpose of prayers.
Well, obviously, there are many things the Quran does not explain on it's own. It gets back to the violent verses. What is one to make of those without any external context?
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by IoshkaFutz »

It gets back to the violent verses. What is one to make of those without any external context?



Warning from the Sunni Minority

Don't be fooled. The above Youtube isn't Pamplona, but Plaza de la Kaba stone in the Mecca about twenty years after the Cat's version of Islam went mainstream.

After Cat's reforms, be warned! This is what now really happens during Hajj. Pagan bulls!

Before the Cat's reforms, we used to have a serious Islam with respectful people walking around the most holy of all holies in the same direction. Now after twenty years, just look at what the Koran Only people have done to us! And if you look carefully, you might even spot some Jews and Zoroastrans... and WOMEN!

Image

This Koran Only business must be stopped! We love our prophet and want to know every last detail about him, recorded by those who admired him most... while at their happiest, (when Islam was expanding by the sword. Conquering).

So what if there are a few embellishments?... It's our frigging culture! You expect a religion that plans to take over the world, not to have some great stories about its founder? We are earthy, touchy feely types... we're frigging Arabs for crissakes! And we have faith. More than all of you put together!

So if in one of those stories, Mohammad (sall Allahu alayhi wa aalih - as told from the earliest days amen!) seemed to be in contradiction with himself or not acting very Canadian-like, it is our pleasure to put things into context! We're arabs, we like our folklore, our stories. What's a religion without 'em? Not serious? Ha!

How can anyone wish to do away with the Hadith! How can they dream of casting stories told from our earliest days into some Nazi fire heap?

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The problem with Koran only is that it's koran only. This will make them even more fanatical.

And those Muslims who gave their wealth, money, lives, for the cause of Allah? What about them? Life in the camp, trading ladies, swapping slaves, splitting booty, deciding that booze was bad and black dogs nasty, the old bird being jealous of the young new thing, getting the truth out of the old Jew who was hiding his treasure.

I understand that the Mohammad that comes out is a bit of a stinker to some of those limp-dick westerners. That's okay! That's their problem not ours!

Koran only is a western ploy. Our beloved Prophet Mohammad (sall Allahu alayhi wa aalih - as told from the earliest days amen!) even warned us about taking kafir as friends and advisors! And then we went astray and allowed ourselves to be reformed by a French Canadian Liberal! Zoroastrans, Jews, raging bulls and even women in the Mecca!

Never mind that there are no dress codes anymore, and so we are even forced to look at our wives!

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Protect true Islam!
Last edited by IoshkaFutz on Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

I can't stay but I enjoyed each of your responses. You seem to confuse bowing down with prostration (which is why you talk about placement of the hands during prostration).

Please do not change my words.
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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

skynightblaze wrote:@Mesmorial

I dont disagree what I said is indecent but why I said this is because its necessary to maintain discipline while praying or else its a joke.You claim positioning of hands is irrelevant. ITs relevant because of the n number of possibilities I mentioned . They denigrate the prayer so how in the world can anyone claim that positioning of hands is irrelevant?. Now if you dont have common sense to understand such a simple thing I cant help you. Also please show me what I misunderstood of your posts.
Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

7:33


Would you like to put your hands on your head while praying? That is between you and Allah (SWT) but if it helps you to concentrate then who knows. I personally clasp my hands like the others since it keeps them still.
Here is the first mistake that you committed and that’s why you end up drawing wrong conclusions. You said praying 5 times is illogical.
I said that interpreting 5 prayers is illogical. To say it is obligatory is to me illogical (unless someone explains otherwise). The Qur'an instructs us to vie with each other in good works, and so to pray the five cannot be harmful. To assign a religious law outside the Qur'an is shirk.


P.S. I understand you are programmed to say these things.
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Brendalee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Brendalee »

Are you not programmed to believe the words of a self-proclaimed creator who is supposedly incomparible to anything and yet bears a striking similarity to HUMANS? Al wala wal bara...Allah HATES like a human, gets ANGRY like a human, shows a HUMAN interest in Mohammad's sex life and marital affairs, is bloodthirsty like the worst human killer, and LIES like a human - even to his own prophet (Quran 8:43).

How curious that you accuse OTHERS of being "programmed".

If Allah lies to his own prophet, what makes you think he would not lie to any Muslim? If Allah confesses himself to be a LIAR, how do you know he is a creator? How do you believe anything the Quran says?

Perhaps there is a God. Perhaps he has made a hell.

Perhaps you will meet Allah one day, and perhaps it will be like this:



:dev: HAHAHAHAHAHA! FOOL! I even TOLD you I was a liar! HAHAHAHAHA!
Last edited by Brendalee on Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

Wonderful to read that 19ers org Quran only MesMorial very actively in ffi., How are you doing dear MesMorial?? So exams are over??
MesMorial wrote:
Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. 7:33
Spoiler! :
Would you like to put your hands on your head while praying? That is between you and Allah (SWT) but if it helps you to concentrate then who knows. I personally clasp my hands like the others since it keeps them still.
Here is the first mistake that you committed and that’s why you end up drawing wrong conclusions. You said praying 5 times is illogical.
I said that interpreting 5 prayers is illogical. To say it is obligatory is to me illogical (unless someone explains otherwise). The Qur'an instructs us to vie with each other in good works, and so to pray the five cannot be harmful. To assign a religious law outside the Qur'an is shirk.

P.S. I understand you are programmed to say these things.
That 7.33 is a good one., is that translations from Rashad Khalifa ??., I like his guru Shakir's translation., let me put that here
007.033: Say: My Lord has only prohibited indecencies, those of them that are apparent as well as those that are concealed, and sin and rebellion without justice, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down any authority, and that you say against Allah what you do not know.
Good stuff

Indeed "forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret....".There are many questions to ask on that Allah statement dear MesMorial. After all you are student , You must learn to ask question to and the stagnation.. So let us see.,

1 Q: I wonder do you any religious text book that was there before the birth of Muhammad that says
Ohyee followers of God I allow all shameful deeds, whether open or secret...."., Did you read something like that in any book forget religious?? If you didn't, such statement are not a big deal..

My next point is.. more complex.. Let me put down some verses here
O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

066.002: Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.

066.003: And when the prophet secretly communicated a piece of information to one of his wives-- but when she informed (others) of it, and Allah made him to know it, he made known part of it and avoided part; so when he informed her of it, she said: Who informed you of this? He said: The Knowing, the one Aware, informed me.

066.004: If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

066.005: Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins.


033.004: Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons; these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way.


033.006: The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.

033.032: O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.

033.033: And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying

033.037: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.
I can add more of such verses from Quran. Do you think they are words of Allah/God ??

MesMorial reading those verses above and reading Allah words from that 7.33 "forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret...." Do you see any shameful deeds of Prophet for using Allah to his sexual needs??

Well let use some questioning an some commonsense to analyze the Quran..

with best regards
yeezevee

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MesMorial
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by MesMorial »

Brendalee wrote:Are you not programmed to believe the words of a self-proclaimed creator who is supposedly incomparible to anything and yet bears a striking similarity to HUMANS? Al wala wal bara...Allah HATES like a human, gets ANGRY like a human, shows a HUMAN interest in Mohammad's sex life and marital affairs, is bloodthirsty like the worst human killer, and LIES like a human - even to his own prophet (Quran 8:43).

How curious that you accuse OTHERS of being "programmed".

If Allah lies to his own prophet, what makes you think he would not lie to any Muslim? If Allah confesses himself to be a LIAR, how do you know he is a creator? How do you believe anything the Quran says?

Perhaps there is a God. Perhaps he has made a hell.

Perhaps you will meet Allah one day, and perhaps it will be like this:



:dev: HAHAHAHAHAHA! FOOL! I even TOLD you I was a liar! HAHAHAHAHA!
Programmed to say these things because my responses don’t seem to be understood nor are the obvious Qur’anic principles (from snb’s desperate questions). Programmed since you can’t control your emotions and start spouting venom throughout the forum blinded by your preconceptions of those who follow the Qur’an as guide. No-one here is interested in truth; skynightblaze wants to prove that I need hadiths so that he can feel good about himself because he wishes to believe that to be Muslim you must believe in stoning etc. He wants to believe that Muslims are bad, proved by his unprovoked behaviour. He wants to believe it and no matter what anyone here says it is an obvious psychological fact. He is insecure. Yeezevee welcomes me to the forum and now begins to prove himself fake by attacking me knowing I have not attacked him and failing to see that skynightblaze’s questions (proving that he has not read the Qur’an) and the way they are asked are completely preconceived and missing the point. So that is what I meant by programmed. And you could not control your little temper since you wanted in on the feeding-frenzy too. I do not need to quote the Qur’an to prove you wrong because regardless of what is or is not you must look at yourselves first. Who are you to say a Muslim is worse than another? Do you judge a person or the belief? What do you believe? It does not matter since you have already demonstrated your tolerance for those of other faiths. Do you EXPECT people to be agnostic? Can people believe what they like provided they don’t force their views? I saw something about that mentioned between The Cat and sknynightblaze earlier in the forum but then I know that some people have to believe that Muslims are bad or else they would have nothing to argue with. It would leave them empty and envious of those who can understand faith. They understand humanity more than you. But it is good for the people here to laugh at those who likewise use their religion as an ego-boost because it justifies whatever other philosophy they hold to. For instance if I have to get amusement out of posting those pictures then I would much rather be a Muslim. Understand?

Peace to you.
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yeezevee
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:Yeezevee welcomes me to the forum and now begins to prove himself fake by attacking me knowing I have not attacked him and failing to see
what I am fake?? I am no fake., You should ask Edip about that., he could have told you about yeezevee lol...

Asking you questions on Quran using the same verse you used means attacking you dear MesMorial? How is that an attack on you dear MesMorial?? No it is not., It is questioning what is there in Quran. What all I am saying may be considered as " an attack on your FAITH NOT ON YOU" dear MesMorial. Ask my good friend JD.. lol.. Edip "how hard it gets to faith heads in FFI"., well yes it gets hard here., I tell you this, with in Islam I do support Quran only Muslims but with the condition that people must have freedom to question any and every religious book/scripture/prophet and their followers.. And Islam/Quran/Muhammad is no exception to that rule,,

with best regards
yeezevee

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skynightblaze
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by skynightblaze »

MesMorial wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:@Mesmorial

I dont disagree what I said is indecent but why I said this is because its necessary to maintain discipline while praying or else its a joke.You claim positioning of hands is irrelevant. ITs relevant because of the n number of possibilities I mentioned . They denigrate the prayer so how in the world can anyone claim that positioning of hands is irrelevant?. Now if you dont have common sense to understand such a simple thing I cant help you. Also please show me what I misunderstood of your posts.
Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

7:33


Would you like to put your hands on your head while praying? That is between you and Allah (SWT) but if it helps you to concentrate then who knows. I personally clasp my hands like the others since it keeps them still.
I will buy your argument here. I knew this verse but it didnt occur to me. The only problematic thing is you need to use common sense outside quran to know that what acts I mentioned are indecent.

Mesmorial wrote:
Here is the first mistake that you committed and that’s why you end up drawing wrong conclusions. You said praying 5 times is illogical.
I said that interpreting 5 prayers is illogical. To say it is obligatory is to me illogical (unless someone explains otherwise). The Qur'an instructs us to vie with each other in good works, and so to pray the five cannot be harmful. To assign a religious law outside the Qur'an is shirk.


P.S. I understand you are programmed to say these things.
Interpreting 5 prayers isnt illogical.Its obligatory because they are the truth and the only way to practice prayers. Now why are they the only way ?. See my logic below and refute it..Its impossible for this practice to be illogical..
Here is the first mistake that you committed and that’s why you end up drawing wrong conclusions. You said praying 5 times is illogical.Its simply not because this practice has been in existence since last 1400 years and that too every single day and that too 5 times a day and this practice has been passed down from 1 generation to the other so we can trace this practice back to muhammads time .

It cant happen that all the generations lied and coincidentally all the people in each generation transmitted the same practice.Thats too much of coincidence and fabrication of such a lie is impossible considering the fact that muslims have spread throughout the world.A lie cant be collaborated in that case.

I haven’t even uttered the word hadith here. I have proved it using logic that this practice is logical and correct
This logic of mine proves that the practice of praying that you muslims follow is not mentioned in the quran but its the truth so again quran is incomplete with respect to details.

Btw please answer the following content in the spoiler. I have brought verses in the quran to prove that scriptures outside quran are required..Please answer those also or else we dont even need to debate.

Spoiler! :
Chapter 62 verse 2

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to
rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and
Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-


Why does this verse tell us that Muhammad is supposed to sanctify the quranic verses and
instruct accordingly if muhamamad cant guide us? Further where are we supposed to find
those sanctified verses and lucid instructions that Muhammad was commanded to give muslims
during his time? Certainly Allah feels them they are needed otherwise why would there be a verse for telling the same? The answer is again hadiths to all the questions..

Lets go ahead ..

16:44
With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto
you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran),that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.


Well Muhammad was asked to explain the quran to the early muslims so if quran alone was
sufficient why is the verse telling Muhammad to explain quran CLEARLY TO MEN?? The next question where are those CLEAR EXPLANATIONS unless we look up the hadiths?


2 :129
Verily, it is the mercy of God that He has raised amongst them a Prophet who recites
the verses before them, purifies them and teaches them the Book and wisdom
.


This verse tells us that Muhammad recites verses of quran and PURIFIES THEM AND TEACHES
THEM TO HIS DISICIPLES? So where are we supposed to find purification of the quranic verses? if

The answer is again hadiths..!!!



[004:064]
We sent not an apostle, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of God. If they
had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked God's
forgiveness, and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found God indeed
Oft-returning, Most Merciful. [/color]

[004:065]
But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

So now again how come Muhammad is asked to be a judge between the disputes of people? Where are those disputes? Certainly they aren’t in the quran .We have to resort to hadiths to find out those disputes. Now since quran is for all the time then so should this verse be and hence its essential to muslims of today to find out those disputes especially when they are concerned with matters of faith.

[004:059]
O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority
among you.
If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle,
if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.


If we believe that muhammad cant guide people then how can 4 caliphs guide anyone?

Also they were the men of authority when the verse was revealed so how is anyone supposed to obey the caliphs using quran alone?

[033:021]
Ye have indeed in the Apostle of God a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose
hope is in God and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of God.


How is anyone supposed to emulate Muhammad using quran alone? The argument made by AB is
that quran asks us to follow muhamamad via quran. If that was the case then why would quran
ask muslims to follow the men of authority?

The verses quoted above expected muslims to follow matters other than the quran so how in the world can anyone claim that Muhammad has to be followed only via the quran?

33:36
And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any
choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.


IF Muhammad is to be followed only via quran then why is it said that messenger of Allah also decides about a matter.?? It would have just said when Allah has decided a matter if only quran was to be followed.


P.S talking about being programmed you yourself are programmed to blindly follow a man without knowing what kind of man he was.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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