Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
WittyBoy
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by WittyBoy »

Who said it's allowed to kill who lives in USA for example?? He must be in a country with Muslim majority and this punishment must be agreed by a judge/ruler/...etc. Otherwise, anyone can kill anyone claiming he became apostate.
Problems #1 , #2

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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

PityBoy, your logic is a mess once again. If someone leaves the US and talks badly about it, they are not a traitor and do not get prosecuted. If someone leaves Islam and doesn't even talk badly about, just makes it known that he has left, then he should be killed according to you. So your entire comparison/analogy fails completely.
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iffo
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by iffo »

@WittyBoy

Please move on to this one, how do you expain this torture? I already asked you twice before.
They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. (Sahih Muslim 4131 ).

yeezevee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

iffo wrote:@WittyBoy

Please move on to this one, how do you expain this torture? I already asked you twice before.
They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. (Sahih Muslim 4131 ).
That is easy to explain and even defend what Muhammad and his followers did to those guys during that time dear Iffo., But before that let me put whole hadith Not partial..
Book 016, Number 4130:

Anas b. Malik reported that some people belonging (to the tribe) of 'Uraina came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) at Medina, but they found its climate uncogenial. So Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to them: If you so like, you may go to the camels of Sadaqa and drink their milk and urine. They did so and were all right. They then fell upon the shepherds and killed them and turned apostates from Islam and drove off the camels of the Prophet (may peace be upon him). This news reached Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he sent (people) on their track and they were (brought) and handed over to him. He (the Holy Prophet) got their hands cut off, and their feet, and put out their eyes, and threw them on the stony ground until they died.

Book 016, Number 4131:

Anas reported: Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukl came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and swore allegiance to him on Islam, but found the climate of that land uncogenial to their health and thus they became sick, and they made complaint of that to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: Why don't you go to (the fold) of our camels along with our shepherd, and make use of their milk and urine. They said: Yes. They set out and drank their (camels') milk and urine and regained their health. They killed the shepherd and drove away the camels. This (news) reached Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and he sent them on their track and they were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Ibn al-Sabbah with a slight variation of words.

Book 016, Number 4132:

Anas b. Malik reported that some people of the tribe of 'Ukl or 'Uraina came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and they found the climate of Medina uncogenial. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded them to the milch she-camels and commanded them to drink their urine and their milk. The rest of the hadith is the same (and the concluding words are):" Their eyes were pierced, and they were thrown on the stony ground. They were asking for water, but they were not given water."
. ASSUMING IT REALLY HAPPENED THE WAY that hadith talks., Here what you have is some ROGUES from the tribe of 'Ukl or 'Uraina came to prophet and found the climate of Madina did not suit them and they were sick . So Prophet told them to go to HIS SHEPARD and drink some urine and milk of a she camel .. Apparently these rogues went drank the milk.. urine ..shitt of camels and also killed the Shepard for reasons not clear., May be they wanted to steal the live stock. Prophet being an angry man to start with, on top of that these brutes killed his Shepard, so being very angry angry man and as a leader of the town he just made sure theses rogues get tortured to the best of his knowledge and fullest extent in public so that such crime do not take place again in his town.

The times were like that and criminals (if they don't/did not have political power) they would get severely punished. So what is the big deal about that dear iffo?? It is similar to what happened in Sialkot a month back, where two kids openly brutally murdered because the police and the crowd thought these kids were dacoits and they killed a person in the other street whwre apparently wanted to play in a cricket ground.. .. read this link, http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index ... #msg333620" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; how those two kids were labeled as killer dacoits and how crowd killed them in front of Police ..

So thing happen, some times it is very unfortunate and some times it is deliberate..

with best regards
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sum
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by sum »

Hello yeezevee

I suppose the relevant matter is that it was Islam`s prophet who initiated the brutal torture and death while he was the prophet of a merciful and compassionate god. He is also supposed to be the example for all mankind to follow. If the hadith is true and Muhammad is the prophet of allah then muslims will be at ease metering out savage and brutal punishments as did Muhammad, their shining example.

Was the punishment for the killing or the apostasy or both?

sum

yeezevee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

sum wrote:Hello yeezevee

I suppose the relevant matter is that it was Islam`s prophet who initiated the brutal torture and death while he was the prophet of a merciful and compassionate god. He is also supposed to be the example for all mankind to follow. If the hadith is true and Muhammad is the prophet of allah then muslims will be at ease metering out savage and brutal punishments as did Muhammad, their shining example.

Was the punishment for the killing or the apostasy or both?

sum
well That hadith doesn't tell us whether they were killed for their apostasy or for Killing that Shepard boy and stealing camels.. cows or both whatever dear sum..

I would say it is nothing or very little to do with their apostasy but it is because of killing the shepherd boy who used to look after Prophet's Camels.. My man got very very angry and asked his followers to cut the hands /legs and eyes of those criminals in public., so others don't do such criminal stuff in his towns. .. Off course real Muslims are at ease applying Hadith rules and punishing criminals as well as good people who question Islam ..

Whether Muhammad was true messenger of Allah/God is a different question., But Believers of Islam & followers of Muhammad will shed their life to make Muhammad as true messenger of Allah/God. Through their eyes what they are doing is right..

with best regards
yeezevee

sum
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by sum »

Hello yeezevee

It isn`t clear why they were tortured and killed but I agree with you that is was more than likely to be the theft of the camels. One has to ask if stealing camels is a sin because Muhammad was a "stealer extraordinaire" of other peoples` camels, wealth and women. He set the example for all muslims for all time. I wonder where Muhammad obtained his camels. There is no mention of which I am aware of Muhammad earning money to buy camels - there are only accounts of Muhammad obtaining camels as booty from defeated tribes.

My impression is that Muhammad committed far more killing of men and theft of camels than did those men who killed the man to steal the camels. It only appears to be worthy of punishment if someone steals Muhammad`s camels but not if Muhammad steals other peoples camels.

sum

yeezevee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

sum wrote:Hello yeezevee

It isn`t clear why they were tortured and killed but I agree with you that is was more than likely to be the theft of the camels
No..no it is not only the theft of camels but also those criminals killed the Shepard boy who may have been a close confident/honorable worker for Prophet of Islam..
One has to ask if stealing camels is a sin because Muhammad was a "stealer extraordinaire" of other peoples` camels, wealth and women. He set the example for all muslims for all time. I wonder where Muhammad obtained his camels. There is no mention of which I am aware of Muhammad earning money to buy camels - there are only accounts of Muhammad obtaining camels as booty from defeated tribes.
ah.. Ha! that is a different game., their Prophet of Islam and his followers of that and this time will defend it ., "as other people were bad people they are NOT following Prophet's order and are questioning Muhammad and his Islam." So according to Allah and the book/hadith., Prophet/his followers has the right to steal.. camels.. women and everything..
My impression is that Muhammad committed far more killing of men and theft of camels than did those men who killed the man to steal the camels. It only appears to be worthy of punishment if someone steals Muhammad`s camels but not if Muhammad steals other peoples camels.

sum
Off course that is where POLITICAL AND MUSCLE POWER COMES IN TO PLAY.. whoever has the gun and power .. the camels.. the sheep and the women are theirs..

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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by iffo »

@YeeZee,

This was for WittyBoy. He said all shahi hadiths are true. I wanted him to justify this torture by the prophet of God, role model to the whole world.
He has 2 choices either say shahi hadiths are false or say they are true and prove that prophet was a brutal thug, and was nothing better than some Sadam Hussain.

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-Peace-
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by -Peace- »

iffo wrote:@YeeZee,

This was for WittyBoy. He said all shahi hadiths are true. I wanted him to justify this torture by the prophet of God, role model to the whole world.
He has 2 choices either say shahi hadiths are false or say they are true and prove that prophet was a brutal thug, and was nothing better than some Sadam Hussain.
So are you apostate now? Congrats! Welcome to the club. :*)
JUST KIDDING, STILL AN APOSTATE. MWAHAHAHAHA! HEHEHEHEHEH! :D BACK TO THE RIGHT PATH. ALHAMDULILLAH! :)

piscohot
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by piscohot »

iffo wrote:@YeeZee,

This was for WittyBoy. He said all shahi hadiths are true. I wanted him to justify this torture by the prophet of God, role model to the whole world.
He has 2 choices either say shahi hadiths are false or say they are true and prove that prophet was a brutal thug, and was nothing better than some Sadam Hussain.
So WittyBoy believes in all these.
Here are some sahih hadiths from Bukhari.

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 673:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a fly falls in the vessel of any of you, let him dip all of it (into the vessel) and then throw it away, for in one of its wings there is a disease and in the other there is healing (antidote for it) i e. the treatment for that disease."

Saheeh Bukhary
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 460:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning."

Do WittyBoy accept that Muhammad violated the rule in the quran to stay away from menstruating women?
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 297:
Narrated Um Salama:
While I was laying with the Prophet under a single woolen sheet, I got the menses. I slipped away and put on the clothes for menses. He said, "Have you got "Nifas" (menses)?" I replied, "Yes." He then called me and made me lie with him under the same sheet.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 464:
Narrated Al-Bara':
When Ibrahim (the son of Prophet) expired, Allah's Apostle said, "There is a wet-nurse for him in Paradise."

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 77, Number 594:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "Allah puts an angel in charge of the uterus and the angel says, 'O Lord, (it is) semen! O Lord, (it is now ) a clot! O Lord, (it is now) a piece of flesh.' And then, if Allah wishes to complete its creation, the angel asks, 'O Lord, (will it be) a male or a female? A wretched (an evil doer) or a blessed (doer of good)? How much will his provisions be? What will his age be?' So all that is written while the creature is still in the mother's womb."


Sahih Bukhari
Volume 7, Book 65, Number 366:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, 'When you eat, do not wipe your hands till you have licked it, or had it licked by somebody else."


Sahih Bukhari
Volume 1, Book 5, Number 277:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, 'The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body. Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone." Abu Huraira added, "By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating."


Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 522:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "When you hear the crowing of cocks, ask for Allah's Blessings for (their crowing indicates that) they have seen an angel. And when you hear the braying of donkeys, seek Refuge with Allah from Satan for (their braying indicates) that they have seen a Satan."

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 76, Number 550:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "From my followers there will enter Paradise a crowd, seventy thousand in number whose faces will glitter as the moon does when it is full." On hearing that, 'Ukasha bin Mihsan Al-Asdi got up, lifting his covering sheet, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah that He may make me one of them." The Prophet said, "O Allah, make him one of them." Another man from the Ansar got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Invoke Allah to make me one of them. "The Prophet said (to him), "'Ukasha has preceded you."

Out of 1.5 billion muslims, ONLY 70,000 is gonna make it to paradise.

Most muslims are like WittyBoy, they too believed in the above hadiths.

They are obviously braindead, aren't they iffo?
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

WittyBoy
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by WittyBoy »

iffo wrote:@WittyBoy

Please move on to this one, how do you expain this torture? I already asked you twice before.
They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died. (Sahih Muslim 4131 ).
We have to know the crime first and then decide:

What did this people do?
They came to the prophet and embraced Islam, they became sick, the prophet(pbuh) advised them, and this advice worked.

Till now everything is going well.

Then, they killed the shepherds, pierced the eyes of them, turned apostates, and drove off the camels.

BTW, Anas ibn Malik; the man who narrated all Hadiths about this incident, said that they pierced the eyes of the shepherds too,
Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds.
[Muslim - 16:4137]
Now, If your father and your uncles/Aunts are working in a place, and some people came, stole everything in this place. OK that's enough, but they killed them, but they pierced their eyes too, Imagine that happened to your family, what would be your judge?

The second point, If the prophet of mercy forgave them as you want, this incident would be repeated all the time. Yes, the prophet is merciful, but when he punishes, his punishment is preventive and just even if it seems cruel.
Problems #1 , #2

crazymonkie_
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by crazymonkie_ »

WittyBoy wrote:Who said it's allowed to kill who lives in USA for example?? He must be in a country with Muslim majority and this punishment must be agreed by a judge/ruler/...etc. Otherwise, anyone can kill anyone claiming he became apostate.
I talked about this:
Islam is not a government, though it pretends to be. If there was a khalifa, and he was widely accepted as khalifa, *maybe* in those regions where the khalifa held sway you'd have a case. But you don't.
At this point in history, where a Muslim is living is immaterial to the idea that leaving Islam is treason. Islam is not a state, and leaving a religion is not the same as defecting from a state.

And the idea that it needs a professional ruling is REALLY not important. Islam is not a state. So any mention of 'treason' does not hold.

WittyBoy
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by WittyBoy »

Islam aims to a coherent community, any acts i mentioned is a treason.
Problems #1 , #2

piscohot
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by piscohot »

WittyBoy wrote:Islam aims to a coherent community, any acts i mentioned is a treason.
verbal gymnastics which basically say this: Islam demand muslims remain as muslims irregardless of what they believe or disbelieve. Anyone who wants to leave islam deserve to be killed.
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

crazymonkie_
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by crazymonkie_ »

WittyBoy wrote:Islam aims to a coherent community, any acts i mentioned is a treason.
A "coherent community" is not a state, is not a nation.

Thus it can't use treason to silence its opponents. Horrible thought, huh?

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pr126
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by pr126 »

The word "treason" if it is used in the context of desertion from an army is applicable, because essentially Muslims are commanded to fight in the cause of Allah, Islam being a militaristic religion cult.

The Quran is replete with verses urging the faithful to fight, plunder and rule the unbelievers.
Thus, an example to be shown, a deterrent to all would be deserters from the army of the soldiers of Allah.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

sword_of_truth
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by sword_of_truth »

sword_of_truth wrote:No, if those acts are not okay with God, I have to say I don't like this God of which you speak. He should not be affected by petty human squabbles.



But other people may be affected by these ideas, or dividing the community, or causing a tumult.
Go back and read what you wrote that I was responding to. You appear to have retracted what you said. You said that was okay. It was when God was involved that it was not okay.
"...if you want my personal preference say I found out that my wife was cheating with me flogging would be too good a punishment."

--fudgy

yeezevee
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by yeezevee »

iffo wrote:@YeeZee,

This was for WittyBoy. He said all shahi hadiths are true. I wanted him to justify this torture by the prophet of God, role model to the whole world.
He has 2 choices either say shahi hadiths are false or say they are true and prove that prophet was a brutal thug, and was nothing better than some Sadam Hussain.
I would not say Muhammad was Brutal thug but he was man of his times where people used violence to get what they want . There is little doubt here that Prophet of Islam and his followers indeed used brute force to subjugate people of Mecca /Madina and surrounding towns so that he can rule them. He indeed incited his followers and corrupted them with loot, booty and women in this life and after this life. This happened after a year or two after the death of his first wife Khadija and after he married that 6/9 year old little girl.

Yes,.... Saddam Hussain and many rulers of Islam are indeed comparable to Muhammad. And that is not their fault. This is because Islam is a Political ideology and there is nothing religious in it. Whatever few good words you find in Quran/hadith or in Muhammad's actions you will find them in every religion that was there before Muhammad. And that little goodness Muhammad showed towards his followers., such kindness and goodness is shown by 1000s of leaders (EVEN GANG LEADERS) of a community in the history of man kind.

"Absolute power indeed corrupts human beings" And this absolute power corruption is also quite common in human beings irrespective of their religious/social and economical background. It really doesn't matter how good a man was to start with. The moment that power gets in to his/her head, their actions and reactions on their opponents as well as on their followers will be different. interesting to see this video



where that Geert Wilders in Berlin uses the words of Ali Sina in his speech., Watch between 10 to 13 minutes of that speech. And Ali was right when he said those words some 10 years back...
.

So bottom line is

Islam is a political ideology

Muhammad was man of his times with all human weaknesses and some goodness every creature on this earth is born with by nature. Unfortunately after the death of his first wife 'NO ONE COULD CORRECT HIM" including that stupid fool Abu Bakr who gave away his little child to this SODOM(sex obsessed dirty old man)

There is nothing new in Quran w.r.t to Allah/God that is not there in religions that are present before the birth of Muhammad.

Muhammad and his followers simply used criminal activities to serve their political agenda and personal needs..


with best regards
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

iffo
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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

Post by iffo »

Anas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pierced their eyes because they had pierced the eyes of the shepherds.
[Muslim - 16:4137]
@WittyBoy

WittyBoy two 'wrongs' don't make one 'right'. If they did a cruel barbaric act, prophet did not have to repeat it.
What about they would have rapped the shepherds first, that means prophet should also asked them to be rapped first.
Prophet that msulims are suppose to follow as role model should maintain higher standards.

Is this something one can pratice in 21st century? even if someone has done this kind a criminal act.
I know I myself can not to that torture to a cat or a dog.

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