Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

[iffo]

WittyBoy
They used to travel on horses >> Then Yemen was not that far! what a stupid conclusion! It's still far even they use horses, you have to prove after how much time he reached Yemen, and then claim that Ali forced the female captive on sex directly after the war. Add to that, you don't know too when this incident happened after his arrival, the narrator said a specific incident, it doesn't mean it took place directly after his arrival. He might do million of things, and spend tens of days, and then this incident in interest took place. BTW, having sex without months of love doesn't mean forcing on sex, there can be readiness (attraction, desire, acceptance,... etc) without having a long period before it. Especially, this relationship ensures this female captive's rights, and her child will be a legitimate son.

Yemen is roughly 600-700 miles from medina, it does not take that long to travel that distance on the horses, even though that is not important.

No Ali did not live there for months after his arrival, before fuking her.
Ali went there to get the booty not to settle down there.
One has to have brain to figure out these simple things which you obviously don't or my guess is you are just a crock. Trying to cover up the criminal activities of your religion's greatest personalities. Have you heard the term "circumstantial evidence"

WittyBoy
BTW, having sex without months of love doesn't mean forcing on sex, there can be readiness (attraction, desire, acceptance,... etc).

Same answer, no woman will have attraction to the people who were her enemies few days or weeks back. Except may be Egyption women.

BTW attarction/desire and then having sex, we call it lust and fornication, and you flog people with 80 lashes for that..I have desire for my neighbour, and I think she has for me, should we fuke ............ What happened to your islamic morality, looks like you have no problem with raw sex with slave, but have problem if I have sex with my neighbour or a boy/girl who love each other and have sex. see how clueless and hypocrate you are.

WittyBoy
Yes, you talked about husbands and wives, woman doesn't need to be the man's wife to tempt him.

tempt what? you have defination for that? or just want to keep it secret. So let me think, so all men who are not into religion are because of women right, its women
tempting them not to pray or fast and love god? why you making fun of yourself. If prophet said a stupid thing, so you have to follow it.

WittyBoy
Yes, good, but with good treatment which they wouldn't find even in their folk. You look at a single act even hasn't been done by The Prophet(pbuh), but when it was suggested to him by a group of young companions in the beginning of their life, he disapproved and upbraided it. Should we ignore the prophet's opinion and follow the young companions' suggestion?

Prophet did not prohibit that, its only in your dreams he prohibited that .... Its people like you who felt shame that prophet did not say "NO DON'T" try to cover up. And you trying to paint an innocent picture of bunch of rapists based on these hadiths.

WittyBoy
and who couldn't pay ransom???? no one in this situation couldn't find the money of ransom, he isn't going to pay a car or a house, and he isn't a lone in his tribe, especially that Muslims are the enemy of all the tribe not only him.

Mr clueless, were you their financial advisor you know who has how much money and who can afford what? what a stupid thing to say.
Different people have different situations

WittyBoy
So he was another prophet and we take our faith from him???? he was an ordinary man did mistakes as any other people and the prophet corrects them.

Right it was such a little mistake, kids make mistake, he burned men alive that's all, its not a big deal, right? ....... BTW they did not do anything to be burned alive.
Ali is a criminal based on the hadith........ there was no exempt period that prophet is not done explaining Islam so if you murder/rape/steal during that period you are exempt.

But to you non muslim human life means nothing looks like, its same mentality that justify every wrong doing including terrorists attacks.

[piscohot]

I guess, you found out that inmate Mushrik Boy is making you dumbest, so you are now hanging around with inmate piss, well you better watch out, piss is uncircumcised and as you should know most those who are uncircumcised are filthy and more vulnerable to Aids

If you are that idiotic to keep bringing up your stupid thought on uncircumcised males, then SHOW US where in the quran does it say you are to be circumcised? And WHERE IN THE QURAN did it say uncircumcised males are filthy.
Go ahead... QURAN-ONLY Bahgat.

You mean to tell us that your god Allah cannot make a perfect human and so you guys got to go chop off part of your penis to make yourselves better than when Allah created you?

chopping off part of your penis most likely have affected your brain too, Bahgat.
Go for a brainscan. Your foreskin could be lodged there.

dumb

and here's a muslim view of Muhammad permitting the writing of hadiths.
Know your hadiths

[skynightblaze]

Why would Allah not ask muslims to follow an excellent example in muhammad in his daily life?

I guess, you found out that inmate Mushrik Boy is making you dumbest, so you are now hanging around with inmate piss, well you better watch out, piss is uncircumcised and as you should know most those who are uncircumcised are filthy and more vulnerable to Aids

Now, before i slam you again, punk, where did you get that thing you called “IN HIS DAILY LIFE”
I reckon, inmate piss taught you how to be a manipulator; but to be one you need to be smart, you dumb.

Waiting for your explanation to your words “IN HIS DAILY LIFE”, I guess you should come back and admit that you were only wishful thinking, kafir boy?

33:37 talks about Zayd -zaynab a daily life matter . More ever 4:65 talks about muhammad making some decisions in disputes amongst muslims . The verse says that people wont believe in Allah unless muhammad decides some matters related to faith amongst muslims .Now these disputes and decisions of muhammad concern daily life and arent mentioned in the quran.Isnt it enough to prove that muhammad is supposed to be obeyed in daily life matters too? I shall slam you with one more question.see...

If muhammad wasnt to be obeyed in daily matters then why did companions of prophet follow him with respect to offering prayers? How to offer prayers isnt given in the quran and according to your own statement it was something that companions learned from muhammad.This is yet another proof of following muhammad with regards to daily life matters.

[yeezevee]

well this is useful article w.r.t. Hadith & Quran and what they say about [b]"Rebelling under the Banner of Islam"[/b]., Rishad Shaikh writes on that subject at http://blog.dawn.com/2010/10/27/rebelli ... -of-islam/

............Those that ascribe to the militant ideology of Islam are quick to pass “fatwa” regarding the apostasy of the vast majority of the leaders ruling the Muslim world. They claim them to be corrupt and “not ruling according to the Shariah” and thus outside the pale of Islam. It is based on such fatwas that they embark on their unholy cause of liberating the Muslim lands from these evil apostate rulers. The self appointed saviours of Islam conveniently fail to acknowledge what Islam has to say about rebelling against the government and continue to wage their so-called Jihad against an unholy regime. And the saddest part is that all along the way they claim to be following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad!

But what did the Prophet actually have to say about this issue? Do we find anything in the Quran and Hadith (the two sources of Islamic law which the terrorists claim to be following to the hilt) on how to deal with corrupt and un-Islamic rulers? Yes, there’s plenty and it’s not what the militants would have you believe!

In an authentic narration Hudhaifa bin al-Yaman narrated, “The Prophet (saws) said,

‘There will be after me leaders who do not follow my guidance and do not follow my sunnah and there will be among them men whose hearts are like those of Satan in the body of a human being.’ And I asked the Prophet (saws), ‘What I should do at that time if I reach it?’ He said, ‘listen and obey the ruler, even if he lashed your back and took your money, listen and obey.’

In another narration, Auf bin Malik said,

“O Prophet of Allah, do you recommend that we fight them?” He said, “No, don’t fight them as long as they do not prevent you from your prayers. And if you see from them something that you dislike, dislike their acts, do not dislike them. And do not take your hand out from obedience to them.”

that is what Muslims should do.....

[The Cat]

You're deluded again... Where did I state that Muhammad is NOT a messenger?
It's kind of systematic: wrong premises, false dilemma, red herring, straw man and ad hominem.

If you agree he is a messenger then you must also admit that we need to follow him.The logic that we need to follow jibril and not muhammad is simply gibberish..... The debate boils down to how we are supposed to follow Muhammad.

Thanks for confirming how deluded you are.


The rest just follows the same kind of delusion, debunked by the Koran...
72:18 And the places of worship are only for Allah, so pray not unto anyone along with Allah.
72:19 And when the slave of Allah stood up in prayer to Him, they crowded on him, almost stifling.
72:20 Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner.
72:21 Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.

72:23 (Mine is) but conveyance (of the Truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso disobeyeth
Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever.

72:25 Say (O Muhammad, unto the disbelievers): I know not whether that which ye are promised is nigh,
or if my Lord hath set a distant term for it.

72:27 Save unto every messenger whom He hath chosen, and then He maketh a guard to go before him and a guard behind him
72:28 That He may know that they have indeed conveyed the messages of their Lord.

[The Cat]

I also have brought an additional verse 4:65 which clearly asks muslims to take muhammad's decision to judge between them in matters of faith . This refutes you clearly!

You are only clearly following your delusion, still and always...

4:64 We sent no messenger save that he should be obeyed by Allah's leave.
6.57: The decision is for Allah only.
6.70: It hath beside Allah no protecting ally nor intercessor.
6.114: Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah?

50:45 We are Best Aware of what they say, and thou (O Muhammad) art in no wise a compeller over them.
But warn by the Qur'an him who feareth My threat.

88.21-22: Remind them, for thou art but a remembrancer, Thou art not at all a warder over them.

hadiths do have a seal of Allah since quran clearly hints at following them

More hot air and delusive addicting baloney


3:78 And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues,
that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture.
And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

4.87: Whose hadith (Ĥadīthāan) can be truer than Allah's?

7.185: In what HADITH (Ĥadīthin) after this will they believe?

[The Cat]

Witty boy already showed you why your argument is wrong but yet it seems that you dont understand what your opponent is telling you .

Thanks for showing where your true allegiance is.

But it's deluded hot air & rotten baloney... once again.
viewtopic.php?p=129369#p129369

The message was thus brought sequence by sequence, in times when many doubt about it and the messenger. So, contrary to your bold assertion, this ''follow Quran'' was not intended for it was still in the process of being complete.

That's where 'Obey Allah and the messenger' makes sense: the Koran wasn't still being completed and the revelations were keeping in.

28:56 Lo! thou (O Muhammad) guidest not whom thou lovest, but Allah guideth whom He will.

You are completely right, no one obey the messenger of a king, we actually obey the king who sent the message

27.91-92: (Say): I (Muhammad) am commanded only to serve the Lord of this land which He hath hallowed,
and unto Whom all things belong. And I am commanded to be of those who surrender (unto Him)...
27:92 And to recite the Qur'an. And whoso goeth right, goeth right only for (the good of) his own soul;
and as for him who goeth astray - (Unto him) say: Lo! I am only a warner.

[yeezevee]

The Cat quotes Verses from Quran in a very selective fashion., let me re-read them.. here he picks up all of them that surha AL-JINN., I hope he knows all the secrets Jinns.. otherwise the readers can read about them here http://www.islamcan.com/jinn-stories.shtml

But more important is carefully reading verses he quoted in the above two posts.. well let us read them carefully and analyze what is new in them and why they need to be reveled by Allah to Muhammad that too in Makkah., And we know that Makkah was not even there until 8th century..

yeezevee

[The Cat]

How much do you want to embarass here ?

You're never short of hot air from logical fallacies such as your poll...
viewtopic.php?p=128619#p128619

I would never embarrass myself like upholding the hadiths' validity, which comes down to sanction stoning the adulterers, killing the apostates or of mutilated childbride, then, now and in the future, which YOU shamelessly endorse. I wouldn't ever be your conscience not for a minute.


I stand proud and tall against the hadiths... Koran is the sacred book of Islam,
but such sacredness CAN'T be extended to the hadiths like you're arguing for.

viewtopic.php?p=128322#p128322

Right now I am not sure whether telling muslims that hadiths are authentic is a good idea but I would like to debate in academic sense with master bahgat and Pussy Cat. Actually the muslims who reject hadiths have a higher sense of moral. This cant be denied....

You and other members endorsing the canonical validity of the hadiths are indeed endorsing the Islamic right to kill the apostates,
stone adulterers and to marry mutilated childbride. All this for the sadist pleasure of insulting the prophet through them.

I do not need to insult him, I negate his importance and so does the Koran, thus my use of it -against- nowadays Muhammadanism.

Look at yourself, at your own contradictions...
viewtopic.php?p=128305#p128305

Muhammedians dont always lie. In this case Witty boy is right and thats why I am supporting him . I never supported him when he said its ok to kill apostates. Whatever is right has to be accepted.

For if you support the hadiths, any witch-way, YOU support their commands as valids.

viewtopic.php?p=128053#p128053

Hadiths have the power to defeat islam in entirety....

Again, you're dramatically deluding yourself...

I also understand the consequences of my line of argument. I mean if hadiths are proven authentic
then there is a chance that muslims instead of rejecting muhammad take them as valid sources.

You FOOL! It's what they've been doing ever since the hadiths came in...

In that case I would have to repent so to be frank I am not sure whether my argument is right.

As I've said to wittyBoy: Get yourself straight. It's already quite late for this, indeed.

Meanwhile you're a shame to... humanity! It's all so disgusting, I feel like vomiting.

[skynightblaze]

The rest just follows the same kind of delusion, debunked by the Koran...
72:18 And the places of worship are only for Allah, so pray not unto anyone along with Allah.
72:19 And when the slave of Allah stood up in prayer to Him, they crowded on him, almost stifling.
72:20 Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner.
72:21 Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.

72:23 (Mine is) but conveyance (of the Truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso disobeyeth
Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever.

72:25 Say (O Muhammad, unto the disbelievers): I know not whether that which ye are promised is nigh,
or if my Lord hath set a distant term for it.

72:27 Save unto every messenger whom He hath chosen, and then He maketh a guard to go before him and a guard behind him
72:28 That He may know that they have indeed conveyed the messages of their Lord.

Would you please stop trolling? There is no other word other than trolling to describe your posts.You lack comprehension terribly. I will repeat myself .. Since muhammad is the only point of contact between Allah and humans he has to be obeyed in whatever he says . Even Ahmed Bahgat understood it and agreed with me. This is the last time I am repeating myself . I dont have the patience to repeat again and again for you. As for rest of your garbage I will reply soon along with previous pending posts related to Shafi school of thought.

[The Cat]

Would you please stop trolling? There is no other word other than trolling to describe your posts.You lack comprehension terribly. I will repeat myself .. Since muhammad is the only point of contact between Allah and humans he has to be obeyed in whatever he says . Even Ahmed Bahgat understood it and agreed with me.

Wow, quoting the Koran plainly refuting your delusion is now trolling!

And you're wrong and deluded again (thanks for proving this point all over again), Muhammad is just another messenger:
41:43 Naught is said unto thee (Muhammad) save what was said unto the messengers before thee.

And the point of contact is the Arabic Koran, yet also the other KORANS: Torah, Gospel and Zabur (Psalms).

24.54: Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) only that wherewith he hath been charged,
and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger hath no other charge
than to convey (the message) plainly.

And NO, AB didn't ever agreed with you. ANOTHER delusion, impressive!
viewtopic.php?p=129384#p129384
viewtopic.php?p=129420#p129420
viewtopic.php?p=129421#p129421

Why dont you refute the pdf file the Cat posted?
http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data ... senger.pdf

Are you scared so that you are running around like a clown seeking the help of Mushriks like Mushrik Boy and the help of the kafirs like filthy piss?

Well if you dont refute it, which slams your repeated crap, then I will copy it and format it my style and shove it in your pinhead for you to refute, most of it is what I said anyway, but the author added more very strong points, so later today I will let that author slams a kafir and ex Mushrik hindu...

I sure hope AB just do that...

[AhmedBahgat]

And NO, AB didn't ever agreed with you. ANOTHER delusion, impressive!
viewtopic.php?p=129384#p129384
viewtopic.php?p=129420#p129420
viewtopic.php?p=129421#p129421

Why dont you refute the pdf file the Cat posted?
http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data ... senger.pdf

Are you scared so that you are running around like a clown seeking the help of Mushriks like Mushrik Boy and the help of the kafirs like filthy piss?

Well if you dont refute it, which slams your repeated crap, then I will copy it and format it my style and shove it in your pinhead for you to refute, most of it is what I said anyway, but the author added more very strong points, so later today I will let that author slams a kafir and ex Mushrik hindu...

I sure hope AB just do that...

Indeed the Cat, I dont know from where that deluded boy bringing his crap

I never agreed with anything he said. Well, they said, ignorance is a bliss, I say, delusion is a bliss

[darth]

The quran is very "true", hadhiths are all false...

"41:43 Naught is said unto thee (Muhammad) save what was said unto the messengers before thee. "

Seriously, I want to know, what other messenger before mohammad was sent the following message -

"33.37 And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished."

We need to research this in depth. Obviously 41.43 is true (because quran is true and from allah etc. - see first postulate). So this follows that other messengers before mo like abraham, moses, Jesus were also allowed to lust after their daughters in law.

Also, need to know if all messengers before mo were given the message (33.37) or were some messengers exempt?

Awaiting enlightenment.....

[yeezevee]

The quran is very "true", hadhiths are all false...

"41:43 Naught is said unto thee (Muhammad) save what was said unto the messengers before thee. "

Seriously, I want to know, what other messenger before mohammad was sent the following message -

"33.37 And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished."

Awaiting enlightenment.....

Such verses as 33.37 are nothing but complete bullshitt ., If any fellows comes with those words as words of Allah/God., I will consider him as criminal and his allah/god as pimp to that fellow.

That is as simple as that., In fact such rubbish as you see in surah 33 & surah 66 and many other ayahs in Quran MUST BE REMOVED from Quran. Other wise questions will continue for ever and Muhammad insulting crowd will increase exponentially due to internet and freedom of expression..

[darth]

That is as simple as that., In fact such rubbish as you see in surah 33 & surah 66 and many other ayahs in Quran MUST BE REMOVED from Quran.

Cannot do that, yeezevee, because that action would contradict the postulate that we have already accepted which is-

Quran is true. It is from Allah through Gibreel, mo, santa clause, whatever.

Can a "true" thing be removed??

But we still need to reconcile that Allah claims to have given mo only messages also given to previous prophets. So, if this is true (which it must be because of our postulate) then other prophets too must have been allowed to lust after their daughters in law....

Other wise questions will continue for ever and Muhammad insulting crowd will increase exponentially due to internet and freedom of expression..

We are not insulting mo, no, not at all! In fact we are only trying to prove that lusting after daughter in law is a allah given right granted to all prophets....

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

I never knew the CAT converted or even reconverted to Islam, but that does seem to be apparent now.

[iffo]

I never knew the CAT converted or even reconverted to Islam, but that does seem to be apparent now.

Is CAT muslim, CAT are you muslim?

MLB I am not sure about CAT, but you will be hopefully next soon, here is a gift from one muslim brother to another to be muslim brother, you will need it.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

I never knew the CAT converted or even reconverted to Islam, but that does seem to be apparent now.

Is CAT muslim, CAT are you muslim?

MLB I am not sure about CAT, but you will be hopefully next soon, here is a gift from one muslim brother to another to be muslim brother, you will need it.

iffo,

Aren't there a few questions that I asked you that you ignored on other threads?? Why does the truth ignore things?

[AhmedBahgat]

Well if you dont refute it, which slams your repeated crap, then I will copy it and format it my style and shove it in your pinhead for you to refute, most of it is what I said anyway, but the author added more very strong points, so later today I will let that author slams a kafir and ex Mushrik hindu...

I sure hope AB just do that...

Salam all

Today I am going to format using my style the pdf file the Cat posted from http://www.detailedquran.com. The reasons I am doing so are as follow:

1- The article is a clear Grandmother of all slams against those filthy Mushrikoon and their fellow dummb kafirs.

2- The article is missing the Arabic text; as for me adding the Arabic text is vital in any religious document talking in favour of or against Islam. I will also use Free Islam translation (second draft) instead of the Quran translation provided by the aticle author.

3- About 75% of the article is what I said already for many years, however I like the English style of the author writing in that article, certainly better than mine.

4- I will highlight the strong arguments within the article and possibly add my own comments if I have anything to say.

Now, you may all noticed that the hadith advocates from among the Mushriks and Kafirs never refuted this Granmother of all slams, they just turned their pinheads the other way as if the article will be lost between the many comments added to the thread. Therefore the article will be made very visible not to miss and if any filthy from al-Mushrikoon or any dumb from the kafirs want to express their love and admiration of such man made books of hadith, then they have to refute every single Quran verse and argument posted by such very intelligent author.

Before I start, I would like to clear an important point, my use of this article does not mean that I endorse everything the people behind it say. While I agree totally with this article, after reading their web site all day yesterday, I realized that they say something that I totally don’t agree with, they claimed that the Quran is an easy book that makes things clear. I totally reject this notion as for me the Quran is the hardest book on earth, and while it can make things clear for certain people, it can also make things really hard and complicated for many others.

This fact was stated clearly in Quran. Therefore I totally reject their notion that the Quran makes things clear for all; as for many, it is going to be the contrary, i.e. making things really hard to understand. Examples can be seen clearly in kafirs like Ugly bin Lyin (one of the dumbest and lowest IQ members on FFI), and in Musriks like filthy WittyBoy who alleged that because of the use of the verb Obey twice, one with Allah and the other with Muhammed, then it means that Muhammed is a partner with Allah in creating the religion of Islam for us, each has his own laws and rules, and even sometimes the man made law contradicts the divine law, and in this case we know what the filthy Mushrikoon will do, they go for the man made law and overwrites thereby the divine law, how ridiculous. That’s the common nature of Mushriks anyway, ridiculous but not strange.

The Quran will only be less hard for people like me, the people who completely turned their faces towards Allah alone through His complete words and not through anything else. Yet, I still find a few things in Quran that are very hard to understand, however I always end up concluding that it is all part of this hard test, possibly such little hardship will make some believers to doubt then become kafirs, therefore, by design the Quran must be a hard book to serve the hardest test any human will ever face. Makes great sense to me; If the Quran is that easy for all (as the kafirs wanted it to be), then what is the bloody point of the hard test? Just shove all in paradise and don’t even worry about making the book easy for all to pass the test with ease.

Let’s now go trough this excellent Grandmother of all slams:

Source

Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger; One or Two Sources?

First we must summarise what has been learned in the last 3 lessons:

1. The Quran is complete and detailed for our guidance.

2. This implies that other sources of guidance are not necessary.

3. Anything not in the Quran (by virtue of its completeness) is not binding upon us.

4. The excellent example of the prophet can be found in the Quran in the same way it can for Ibrahim. (Ahmed says: This is another Grandmother of all slams which I will add in the future inshaallah)

5. The only revelation/inspiration given to Muhammad was the Quran. That is, it is the only guidance from Allah that reaches him.

6. Those who do not judge by what is REVEALED are unbelievers/wrong doers/rebellious.

Now one may say:

“What if what is revealed tells us to follow what is not revealed (Like Hadith)?”

(Ahmed says: The above proposition cannot be valid, simply because, al Mushrikoon allege that whatever the prophet said of hadith is also revelation from Allah. Therefore you cannot say: What is revealed tells us to follow what is not revealed (hadith). The hadith for al Mushrikoon is also revealed from Allah. And I showed everyone earlier that Bukhari himself used such crap of an argument that the Sunnah is also called the book of Allah, i.e. Hadith/Sunnah is also a revelation)

This lesson will deal with this situation, inshallah. First of all, judging by what is revealed can only happen with the Quran. As the Hadith is not revealed, there is no circumstance under which we may judge from it. (Ahmed says: But al Mushrikoon claim that the hadith is also a revelation from Allah, however let’s continue this argument based the truthful fact that hadith is not a revelation from Allah)

If Allah says to judge by Hadith (by implication or whatever) then this would contradict with the command to judge by what has been revealed. (Ahmed says: Very strong argument against al Mushrikoon. Possibly that is why they ended up lying that the hadith has to also be a revelation from Allah)

To continue… The major argument of the followers of Hadith for the need for and validity of Hadith can be found in the [b]“obey Allah and obey the Messenger” type ayahs.

Let‟s consider what the above could possibly mean:

1. Obey what Allah says and obey what the prophet independently (independent of the revelation) says.

2. Obey what the prophet says which is revealed to him from Allah.

3. Obey what the prophet says as a result of what was revealed to him from Allah (As in when he judges by the Quran). Obey Allah and obey the Messenger: -

قُلْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ فإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ (32)
Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. And if they turn away, then indeed, Allah does not love the unbelievers.
[Al Quran ; 3:32]

Disobedience makes you a disbeliever.

أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِهِمْ أَنَّا أَنْزَلْنَا عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ يُتْلَىٰ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَرَحْمَةً وَذِكْرَىٰ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ (51)
And is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down upon you the book which is recited to them? Indeed, in that is a mercy and a reminder for a people who believe.
[Al Quran ; 29:51]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلاَ تَوَلَّوْا عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ (20)
O you who have believed! Obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn from him while you hear.
[Al Quran ; 8:20]

إِنَّمَا كَانَ قَوْلَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذَا دُعُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ لِيَحْكُمَ بَيْنَهُمْ أَنْ يَقُولُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۚ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُفْلِحُونَ (51)
The only saying of the believers when they are called to Allah and His messenger so that He (Allah) judges between them, is to say: We have heard and obeyed. And it is them who are the successful.
[Al Quran ; 24:51]

Here we clearly see the phrase „Allah and His Messenger‟ is followed by a clear indication that it is the judgement of Allah (He) that is obeyed when you obey the judgement of „Allah and His Messenger‟.

Only Allah judges:

مَا تَعْبُدُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِ إِلَّا أَسْمَاءً سَمَّيْتُمُوهَا أَنْتُمْ وَآبَاؤُكُمْ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ بِهَا مِنْ سُلْطَانٍ ۚ إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ ۚ أَمَرَ أَلَّا تَعْبُدُوا إِلَّا إِيَّاهُ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (40)
You do not worship other than Him except names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent down for it any authority. Indeed, judgment is only for Allah; He has commanded that you do not worship except Him. That is the correct religion but most people do not know.
[Al Quran ; 12:40]

قُلِ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثُوا ۖ لَهُ غَيْبُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَبْصِرْ بِهِ وَأَسْمِعْ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ مِنْ دُونِهِ مِنْ وَلِيٍّ وَلَا يُشْرِكُ فِي حُكْمِهِ أَحَدًا (26)
Say: Allah is most Knowing how long they remained. To Him belongs the unknown of the heavens and the earth. How Seeing is He and how Hearing. They do not have other than Him any guardian; and He does not associate with His judgment anyone.
[Al Quran ; 18:26]

And this confirms the understanding just reached.

وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَخْشَ اللَّهَ وَيَتَّقْهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَائِزُونَ (52)
And whoever obeys Allah and His messenger and is afraid of Allah and fears Him, then it is them who are the winners.
[Al Quran ; 24:52]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلاَ تَوَلَّوْا عَنْهُ وَأَنتُمْ تَسْمَعُونَ (20)
O you who have believed! Obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn from him (Muhammed) while you hear.
[Al Quran ; 8:20]

This verse tells us that Allah and His messenger are obeyed through the mouth of the Messenger. This is obvious, and Allah is exact when He states to obey „Allah and His messenger‟, because if the messenger is delivering the words of Allah, how can you disobey his words and still obey Allah?

So are these verses telling us to obey what Allah says and obey what the prophet independently (independent of the revelation) says?

Muhammad has no power from himself to guide correctly:

وَأَنَّهُ لَمَّا قَامَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ يَدْعُوهُ كَادُوا يَكُونُونَ عَلَيْهِ لِبَدًا (19)
And indeed, when the servant of Allah stood up supplicating Him, they almost became around him a crowded mass.
[Al Quran ; 72:19]

قُلْ إِنَّمَا أَدْعُو رَبِّي وَلَا أُشْرِكُ بِهِ أَحَدًا (20)
Say: I only supplicate my Lord and do not associate with Him anyone.
[Al Quran ; 72:20]

قُلْ إِنِّي لَا أَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ ضَرًّا وَلَا رَشَدًا (21)
Say: I do not possess for you harm or good.
[Al Quran ; 72:21]

قُلْ إِنِّي لَنْ يُجِيرَنِي مِنَ اللَّهِ أَحَدٌ وَلَنْ أَجِدَ مِنْ دُونِهِ مُلْتَحَدًا (22)
Say: Indeed, I will not be protected from Allah by anyone, nor I will find other than Him a recourse.
[Al Quran ; 72:22]

إِلَّا بَلَاغًا مِنَ اللَّهِ وَرِسَالَاتِهِ ۚ وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَإِنَّ لَهُ نَارَ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا (23)
(It is) only a notification from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His messenger, then indeed, for him is the fire of hell, abiding therein forever.
[Al Quran ; 72:23]

حَتَّىٰ إِذَا رَأَوْا مَا يُوعَدُونَ فَسَيَعْلَمُونَ مَنْ أَضْعَفُ نَاصِرًا وَأَقَلُّ عَدَدًا (24)
Until when they see that which they are promised, then they will know who is weaker in helpers and less in number.
[Al Quran ; 72:24]

قُلْ إِنْ أَدْرِي أَقَرِيبٌ مَا تُوعَدُونَ أَمْ يَجْعَلُ لَهُ رَبِّي أَمَدًا (25)
Say: I do not know if what you are promised is near or if my Lord will make for it a long period.
[Al Quran ; 72:25]

إِنَّكَ لَا تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ (56)
You do not guide those whom you love, but Allah guides whom He wills, and He is most Knowing those who are guided.
[Al Quran ; 28:56]

وَقَالُوا إِنْ نَتَّبِعِ الْهُدَىٰ مَعَكَ نُتَخَطَّفْ مِنْ أَرْضِنَا ۚ أَوَلَمْ نُمَكِّنْ لَهُمْ حَرَمًا آمِنًا يُجْبَىٰ إِلَيْهِ ثَمَرَاتُ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ رِزْقًا مِنْ لَدُنَّا وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (57)
And they said: If we follow the guidance (the Quran) with you, we would be snatched from our land. Have We not established for them a secure sanctuary to which are brought the produce of everything as provision from Us? But most of them do not know.
[Al Quran ; 28:57]

This not only tells us that Muhammad cannot guide whom he likes, but it also clearly indicates that his contemporaries recognised that the guidance they were being called to was the guidance with him (the Quran) and not his guidance.

Muhammad follows only the Quran:

وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُنَا بَيِّنَاتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ لاَ يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءنَا ائْتِ بِقُرْآنٍ غَيْرِ هَذَا أَوْ بَدِّلْهُ قُلْ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أُبَدِّلَهُ مِن تِلْقَاء نَفْسِي إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلاَّ مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ إِنِّي أَخَافُ إِنْ عَصَيْتُ رَبِّي عَذَابَ يَوْمٍ عَظِيمٍ (15)
And when Our signs are recited to them as proofs, those who desire not Our meeting say: Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say: It is not for me to change it on my own accord, I only follow what is revealed to me; indeed, I fear if I disobey my Lord, the torture of a great day.
[Al Quran ; 10:15]

قُلْ مَا كُنْتُ بِدْعًا مِنَ الرُّسُلِ وَمَا أَدْرِي مَا يُفْعَلُ بِي وَلَا بِكُمْ ۖ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَىٰ إِلَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ مُبِينٌ (9)
Say: I am not an invention among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not except an obvious warner.
[Al Quran ; 46:9]

قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ قَدْ جَاءكُمُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ فَمَنِ اهْتَدَى فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَمَا أَنَاْ عَلَيْكُم بِوَكِيلٍ (108)
Say: O people! There has come to you the truth from your Lord, so whoever is guided is only guided for his soul; and whoever goes astray only goes astray against it. And I am not over you a trustee.
[Al Quran ; 10:108]

وَاتَّبِعْ مَا يُوحَى إِلَيْكَ وَاصْبِرْ حَتَّىَ يَحْكُمَ اللّهُ وَهُوَ خَيْرُ الْحَاكِمِينَ (109)
And follow what is revealed to you and be patient until Allah will judge. And He is the best of judges.
[Al Quran ; 10:109]

Muhammad is made to proclaim that the truth which gives guidance is that which is sent down to him, the Quran. And that all of us must follow that which is revealed. Muhammad‟s judgements come only from the word of Allah:

أَفَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْتَغِي حَكَمًا وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنَزَلَ إِلَيْكُمُ الْكِتَابَ مُفَصَّلاً وَالَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ مُنَزَّلٌ مِّن رَّبِّكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ (114)
Is it other than Allah I should seek a judge while it is He Who has sent down to you the book explained? And those whom We have given the book know that it is sent down by your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
[Al Quran ; 6:114]

إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ لِتَحْكُمَ بَيْنَ النَّاسِ بِمَا أَرَاكَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَكُن لِّلْخَآئِنِينَ خَصِيمًا (105)
Indeed, We have sent down to you the book in truth to judge between the people with what Allah has shown you; and be not for the deceitful ones an advocate.
[Al Quran ; 4:105]

Muhammad warns by the Quran, not by his own wisdom:

قُلْ أَيُّ شَيْءٍ أَكْبَرُ شَهَادةً قُلِ اللّهِ شَهِيدٌ بِيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَأُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ هَذَا الْقُرْآنُ لأُنذِرَكُم بِهِ وَمَن بَلَغَ أَئِنَّكُمْ لَتَشْهَدُونَ أَنَّ مَعَ اللّهِ آلِهَةً أُخْرَى قُل لاَّ أَشْهَدُ قُلْ إِنَّمَا هُوَ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِنَّنِي بَرِيءٌ مِّمَّا تُشْرِكُونَ (19)
Say: What thing is greatest in testimony? Say: Allah is Witness between me and you; and this Quran was revealed to me to warn you thereby and whomever it reaches. Do you testify that with Allah there are other gods? Say: I do not testify. Say: Indeed, He is only one God; and indeed, I am innocent of what you associate (with Him).
[Al Quran ; 6:19]

Thus it is clear that Muhammad was not to warn by his own wisdom or anything else (what people would now call Hadith and Sunnah).

Muhammad guides by the Quran:

أَعَدَّ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا ۖ فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ قَدْ أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْرًا (10)
Allah has prepared for them severe torture, so fear Allah, O possessors of minds who have believed! Allah has certainly sent down to you a reminder.
[Al Quran ; 65:10]

رَسُولًا يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ اللَّهِ مُبَيِّنَاتٍ لِيُخْرِجَ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ ۚ وَمَنْ يُؤْمِنْ بِاللَّهِ وَيَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا يُدْخِلْهُ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِنْ تَحْتِهَا الْأَنْهَارُ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا ۖ قَدْ أَحْسَنَ اللَّهُ لَهُ رِزْقًا (11)
(He sent) a messenger reciting to you the clear signs of Allah that he may bring out those who have believed and done good deeds from darkness into light. And whoever believes in Allah and does good deeds, He will admit him into gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Allah will have perfected for him a provision.
[Al Quran ; 65:11]

So it is clear that Muhammad did not give any guidance apart/independent from the Quran.

The next possibility refers to obeying the revelation that Muhammad is delivering to his people. In this case, what Muhammad is saying is in fact the word of Allah and it must be obeyed, the next verses help in seeing this:

وَأَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَاحْذَرُواْ فَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّمَا عَلَى رَسُولِنَا الْبَلاَغُ الْمُبِينُ (92)
And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn away, then know that upon Our messenger is only the clear notification.
[Al Quran ; 5:92]

Here we are told that if we disobey Allah and the messenger, then upon the MESSENGER is only the task of delivering the message (that is, of reciting the Quran to the people).

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّمَا عَلَيْهِ مَا حُمِّلَ وَعَلَيْكُمْ مَا حُمِّلْتُمْ ۖ وَإِنْ تُطِيعُوهُ تَهْتَدُوا ۚ وَمَا عَلَى الرَّسُولِ إِلَّا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ (54)
Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. And if they turn away, then upon him is only that which is carried by him, and upon you is that which is carried by you. And if you obey him you will be guided. And nothing is upon the messenger except the clear notification.
[Al Quran ; 24:54]

and if you obey him, you will be guided.

But from (72:19-25), we see that Muhammad has no power to guide aright, hence we see here that in the context of obeying Allah and His messenger, the obeying of Muhammad is in actual fact the obedience of Allah, which ties in with what immediately follows it, namely that his mission was simply to clearly deliver the revelation (The Quran)

Say: I do not possess for you harm or good.[Al Quran ; 72:21]

(It is) only a notification from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His messenger, then indeed, for him is the fire of hell, abiding therein forever.[Al Quran ; 72:23]

If we study the above statements in these ayahs we very clearly get an understanding of what it means to say „Obey Allah and His messenger‟.

The first statement: Say: I do not possess for you harm or good.[Al Quran ; 72:21]
This very clearly indicates that Muhammad CANNOT guide us correctly (To Jannah or away from Jahhannam).

Yet the next statement says: (It is) only a notification from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His messenger, then indeed, for him is the fire of hell, abiding therein forever.[Al Quran ; 72:23] And it implies that Obeying Allah and the messenger guides to Jannah and away from Jahannam!

And as Muhammad cannot guide us, but Allah and His messenger can guide us, it therefore follows that Allah and His messenger does not refer to the separate obedience of Muhammad and Allah for our guidance, but instead t the obedience of Allah through the obedience of the Messenger when he recites the Quran .

وَإِنْ تُكَذِّبُوا فَقَدْ كَذَّبَ أُمَمٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ ۖ وَمَا عَلَى الرَّسُولِ إِلَّا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ (18)
And if you deny, then already nations before you denied. And nothing is upon the messenger except the clear notification (of the message).
[Al Quran ; 29:18]

No duty is imposed upon the messenger but to proclaim the message.

وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ ۚ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَإِنَّمَا عَلَىٰ رَسُولِنَا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ (12)
And obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn away, then upon Our messenger is only the obvious delivery.
[Al Quran ; 64:12]

No duty is imposed upon the messenger but to proclaim the message.

Continue below………..

[AhmedBahgat]

Read above first ^^^^^^

مَّنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّى فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا (80)
Whoever obeys the messenger, then he has certainly obeyed Allah; and whoever turns away, then We have not sent you over them as a keeper.
[Al Quran ; 4:80]

If you obey the Messenger (NOT IF YOU OBEY MUHAMMAD), you have obeyed Allah, and if anyone disobeys (turns away), then it is not the messengers’ (in this case Muhammad) job to look after them (the disbelievers) or arrange their affairs. Which means that for those who obey Allah and His messenger (The Quran), the messenger will then have the responsibility of looking out for them or arranging their affairs.

(4:80) very clearly shows that obeying Muhammad was the same as obeying Allah. This is because Muhammad ordered only what Allah ordered (In the Quran), this also shows that if Muhammad said something that was not from the Quran, then it would not be binding as it is not what Allah said and therefore would not fit (4:80).

Some other indications of the fact that Obey Allah and obey the messenger, is referring to the word of Allah as spoken by the prophet are as follows:

وَأَذَانٌ مِّنَ اللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ إِلَى النَّاسِ يَوْمَ الْحَجِّ الأَكْبَرِ أَنَّ اللّهَ بَرِيءٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ وَرَسُولُهُ فَإِن تُبْتُمْ فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَإِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ فَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّكُمْ غَيْرُ مُعْجِزِي اللّهِ وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ (3)
And an announcement from Allah and His messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the polytheists, and so is His messenger. So if you repent, it will be good for you; and if you turn away, then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who have disbelieved of a painful torture.
[Al Quran ; 9:3]

Was this referring to two different announcements, one from the prophet and the other from Allah? No! Here lies the logic of saying Allah and His messenger, because even though it is the word of Allah, it is spoken by Muhammad and hence defined as his word too.

So if you say obey Allah and not Muhammad, no one would obey the Quran, if you say obey Allah only all the time, then there would be ambiguity with respect to obeying the (Quranic) words when they came from Muhammad‟s mouth. (4:80) fits in with this perfectly.

This is what Allah does, He reveals his message to a human who proclaims it, Allah has never spoken to towns and cities directly, it was always through a messenger, through the mouth of the messenger. Of note is the fact that we never read in the Quran words like "Obey Allah and obey Muhammad", there is something instructive in this, as it is not Muhammad the man that was to be obeyed, it was the messenger that was to be obeyed, this is to emphasise that what is to be obeyed is the "message" of God and not the words, ideas or views of the man Muhammad. So when you obey the messenger, you are of course obeying the message and hence Allah. Allah Decides and the messenger decides the same way, no separation in this:

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَنْ يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَنْ يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُبِينًا (36)
And it is not for a believing man or for a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about their matter. And whoever disobeys Allah and His messenger, he is certainly strayed into obvious misguidance.
[Al Quran ; 33:36]

It is obvious that Muhammad will decide whatever Allah decides, and hence there cannot be any separation in this regard (that is, that you would obey the decisions of Allah in the Quran, and separately obey the decisions of Muhammad even if they have no Quranic basis). The next verses clarify that it is only Allah who judges anything and not Muhammad. That is why Muhammad can make no judgement unless it is Allah‟s. Only Allah Judges:

Say: Allah is most Knowing how long they remained. To Him belongs the unknown of the heavens and the earth. How Seeing is He and how Hearing. They do not have other than Him any guardian; and He does not associate with His judgment anyone.[Al Quran ; 18:26]

Is it other than Allah I should seek a judge while it is He Who has sent down to you the book explained? And those whom We have given the book know that it is sent down by your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.[Al Quran ; 6:114]

And so we see that there is no separation of Authority in the phrase „Obey Allah and obey the messenger‟, it really just means, obey the word of Allah by obeying what is revealed through the prophet. Hence the 3rd possibility of absolutely obeying for all time what the prophet says as a result of what was revealed to him from Allah (As in when he judges by the Quran) is not to be accepted, as the prophet‟s individual judgement is not the judgement or word of Allah and hence cannot be described as Allah and the messenger‟s word/judgement (it is merely the judgement of a societal leader for his time and place, and not revelation and guidance for all humanity).

This can only happen if it is first Allah‟s judgement (That is, if it is contained in the Quran). Because for example, Muhammad used his judgement in (9:43)

عَفَا اللّهُ عَنكَ لِمَ أَذِنتَ لَهُمْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُواْ وَتَعْلَمَ الْكَاذِبِينَ (43)
Allah has pardoned you when you permitted them (to remain behind) until it was made evident to you those who spoke the truth and you knew the liars.
[Al Quran ; 9:43]

And he was wrong, because it was not the judgement of Allah. Let us not forget that the Quran is full of Allah‟s judgements and answers to the kuffar and Muslims, recall:

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ الْقُرْآنُ جُمْلَةً وَاحِدَةً ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ لِنُثَبِّتَ بِهِ فُؤَادَكَ ۖ وَرَتَّلْنَاهُ تَرْتِيلًا (32)
And those who have disbelieved say: Why was the Quran not sent down to him at once? Thus that We may strengthen thereby your heart; and We have recited it in (clear) reciting.
[Al Quran ; 25:32]

وَلَا يَأْتُونَكَ بِمَثَلٍ إِلَّا جِئْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ وَأَحْسَنَ تَفْسِيرًا (33)
And they do not bring to you an example except that We brought to you the truth and best of explanation.
[Al Quran ; 25:33]]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَاء إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ وَإِن تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْهَا حِينَ يُنَزَّلُ الْقُرْآنُ تُبْدَ لَكُمْ عَفَا اللّهُ عَنْهَا وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ (101)
O you who have believed! Do not ask about things which, if revealed to you, may trouble you. But if you ask about them when the Quran is sent down, it may be revealed to you. Allah has pardoned it, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[Al Quran ; 5:101]

And so Muhammad would have answered his opponents directly with the Word of Allah. Recall all the places Allah says „Say (Qul)‟ to the believers and unbelievers, and „They say (Qalu/Qaal)‟ or they ask… Consider the next verse:

اتَّبِعُواْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُم مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاء قَلِيلاً مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ (3)
Follow what has been sent down to you from your Lord and do not follow other than Him any guardians. Little do you remember.
[Al Quran ; 7:3]

This is general in scope, so we should not even take Muhammad/Messenger as a guardian other than Allah when it comes to guidance. This is the clear command of Allah to follow what has been revealed. Not what the prophet says, not what he does, but what is revealed. But to obey what the prophet says as a result of what was revealed to him from Allah (As in when he judges by the Quran) is in fact valid because of his societal role (as indicated in the Quran) apart from being the messenger.

In conclusion, consider the following:

قُلْ إِنْ أَدْرِي أَقَرِيبٌ مَا تُوعَدُونَ أَمْ يَجْعَلُ لَهُ رَبِّي أَمَدًا (25)
Say: I do not know if what you are promised is near or if my Lord will make for it a long period.
[Al Quran ; 72:25]

عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلَا يُظْهِرُ عَلَىٰ غَيْبِهِ أَحَدًا (26)
The Knower of the unseen, and He does not reveal His (knowledge of the) unseen to anyone.
[Al Quran ; 72:26]

إِلَّا مَنِ ارْتَضَىٰ مِنْ رَسُولٍ فَإِنَّهُ يَسْلُكُ مِنْ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ رَصَدًا (27)
Except whom He has approved of any messenger; for indeed, He sends before him and behind him observers.
[Al Quran ; 72:27]

لِيَعْلَمَ أَنْ قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَىٰ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا (28)
So He makes evident that they have delivered the messages of their Lord, and He has encompassed what is with them and has enumerated everything in numbers.
[Al Quran ; 72:28]

Consider this, Allah has told us that the Quran is detailed, clear and complete for our guidance, what sense does it then make to say that Allah is telling us to follow more/separate guidance from Muhammad? Consider:

And is it not sufficient for them that We have sent down upon you the book which is recited to them? Indeed, in that is a mercy and a reminder for a people who believe.[Al Quran ; 29:51]

Even from this point of view, in order for the Quran to be without contradiction, „obey Allah and the messenger‟ cannot mean to obey two separate sources for guidance.
---------------------

Ahmed says:

This is indeed another Grandmother of all slams exposing the filthy Mushrikoon from among the Muslims who idol worship Muhammed by making him a partner to Allah in creating religious laws for them based on each’s wisdom, then they obey both together.

What current Mushriks like Mushrik Boy WittyBoy allege about obeying Allah and Muhammed is nothing new, they are only parroting what their masters and associates parroted since they invented the hadith. Yet they have no shame when you confront them with the clear cut impossibility of half stoning the married adulterers who were ex-slaves.

See this crap from the man made book of Bukhri Springer hadith:

The allegation is listed under a sub-chapter that is titled: What was talked about concerning the hadith by one narrator only (UHADI). What they are trying to say, is simply providing some apologies to why we should uphold the some of the UHADI hadith (a hadith with only one narrator, like the hadith by Abu Hurairah prohibiting marrying a woman one of her unties at the same time). Let’s look at this different allegation by Abu Hurairah:

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Disp ... 6718&doc=0


The doubtful Abu Hurairah alleged:

While we were sitting with the prophet, a man from among the Bedouin stood up and said: Judge between us by the book of Allah. So his opponent said to the prophet: Judge for him by the book of Allah, and if you may permit me to speak. The prophet said to him: Speak.

So the opponent said: My son who was working for him (the Bedouin), committed adultery with his wife (the wife of the Bedouin), so I was told that my son should be stoned, but I ransomed him with 100 sheep and a newly born one, then I asked those with knowledge and they informed me that I have to lash my son 100 lashes and expel him from the land for one year.

So the messenger of Allah said: By Whom Who controls my soul, I will judge between you by the book of Allah, as for the sheep and the newly born one, they should be returned to you, and as for your son, he should be lashed 100 lashes and be expelled from the land for a year.

And as for you Anis to go to the wife of Bedouin, and if she confesses then stone her.

Anis went to her and she confessed and he stoned her.

End of hadith

What is funny but consistent with these man made rubbish books of hadith that when they want to enforce and man made law, they repeat the same incident numerous times which must result in numerous and contradicting accounts, the above allegation for example was repeated through any of the following variables:

- The two men were, a Bedouin and another anonymous man
- The two men were anonymous men
- The two men went to the prophet to seek his judgment
- The two men were sitting with the prophet and one stood up to seek his judgment
- The adulterer was the son of Bedouin
- The adulterer was the son of other anonymous man
- The adulteress was the wife of Bedouin
- The adulteress was the wife of other anonymous man
- The ransom was 100 sheep and a newly born one
- The ransom was 100 sheep and a female slave
- The ransom was 100 sheep and a male slave
- The confession of the adulteress was not required
- The confession of the adulteress was required
- They went to the adulteress and stoned her
- They brought the adulteress to them and stoned her

Well, the spin did not stop there, they tried to elaborate on the above crap in their other man made Bukhari based book Fath al-Bari, so they said:



Apparently when they elaborated about the above crap of hadith, they did not care about the main subject in hand: Should we stone the adulterers under the Islamic sharia or not? What they cared about is to convince the wannabe hadith worshippers that if a hadith is narrated by one person only, then that is not a strong ground to dismiss the hadith, please be aware that most Abu Hurairah hadith were only narrated by one narrator who was him, i.e. they are indirectly defending the hadith of the always doubtful Abu Hurairah. So here are parts of what they said above:

Ibn Al-Qayem said in his refute against those who reject a hadith by one narrator when it states anything that is not found in the Quran:

Sunnah and Quran go together like this:

A- Sunnah may agree perfectly with the Quran.
B- Sunnah may explain something in the Quran
C- Sunnah may state a law that the Quran did not mention

As for the last one above (Sunnah may state a law that the Quran never mentioned), the law must start by the prophet alone so that he is obeyed. That is because if obeying the prophet in only the Quran, then there would not be a SPECIAL OBEDIENCE for him alone, and Allah has said in the Quran: Whoever obeys the messenger, then such one has obeyed Allah.

(Ahmed says: And that is exactly what filthy Mushrik Boy has parroted to us, they continued to say:)

As for those who does not accept the laws that were alleged to be invented by Muhammed in addition to the Quran, unless it is a popular and widely known laws by the prophet, they would have contradicted themselves because we also know from the UHADI hadith all the following laws which are not found in the Quran:

- Prohibiting marrying both a woman and her aunty together
- Prohibiting marrying from those with whom they suckled
- Inheritance of grandmother
- Prohibiting women with periods from fasting and praying
- Laws concerning those who have sex with their wives while fasting
- Allowing Wudo with wine that is made from dates
- Cutting the leg of a re-offending thief
- Giving a share of 1/6 to the daughter of any deceased man, with her aunty
.
.
- And many more which needs a lot of explanation, but all the above laws came from hadith that were alleged by one person only, some of it are conclusive and others are doubtful, but they divided them into 3 categories, and they had their reasons to do so which again needs a lot of explanation going through the principles of Fiqh (understanding the religion)

End of Fath al-Bary’s elaboration

Well, what a silly apology, if we are going to talk about laws for things that the Quran never talked about, then we have far more than the man made laws invented in their man made books of UHADI hadith, what we should do then? I honestly believe that such laws are not needed, and even some of it can be worked out using the Quran alone, for example the law of prohibiting a woman who has her period from fasting and praying, this law can be worked out from the Quran as follow:

1) Allah commands us to pray while we are physically pure, that is why He commanded us to do Wudo in advance, also Allah told us that the periods make women unclean, therefore they cannot pray while they have their periods.

2) Allah gave exception from fasting to those who are sick as long as they do it later while they are not sick, and because the periods most likely make the women sick, then they may not fast while they have their periods, then do the days they missed later on when they do not have their periods.

The point is this, those hadith worshippers do not want to ponder upon the Quran, they only want to ponder upon their man made hadith while indulging themselves in clear cut shirk, and while being proud of it too, this was clear from the above elaboration when they said that there should be a special obedience for the prophet alone, this when they brought in a sentence from the Quran telling us: Whoever obeys the messenger, then such one has obeyed Allah, let me bring this Quran verse in here:

مَّنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللّهَ وَمَن تَوَلَّى فَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ عَلَيْهِمْ حَفِيظًا (80)
Whoever obeys the messenger, then he indeed obeyed Allah, and whoever turned back, then We have not sent you over them as a keeper.
[Al Quran ; 4:80]

-> Well, someone like me is still obeying the prophet, even if I only take some of the conjectures from their man made hadith books that are qualified by the Quran while rejecting all other conjectures that are contradicting the Quran, I still pray and fast like the prophet, I also adore and respect the Quran that he delivered. How come I cannot be? At least this way, I cannot be exposed to a possible shirk; at least this way I am far safer than those who want to obey allegations about Muhammed for the sake of a special and exclusive obedient to him next to their obedience to Allah. Indeed, it sounds like clear cut shirk to me, and I will never go such way, and never been alhamdulellah.

See, the message of the above verse does not mean that you have to obey both in different and contradicting matters, it makes no sense, rather if you obey Muhammed in all the things that are confirmed by Allah, then you should be considered as obeying Allah as well, no question about it.

But for the hadith worshippers, it goes like this:

- Allah ordains some laws
- Muhammed ordains other different laws, even ones that were already settled by Allah
- They should obey both

It virtually sounds like they consider Muhammed as another human god who has the same power that the real divine God has.

It seems that those hadith worshippers did not read the next two verses after 4:80, so let me bring them in here:

وَيَقُولُونَ طَاعَةٌ فَإِذَا بَرَزُواْ مِنْ عِندِكَ بَيَّتَ طَآئِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ غَيْرَ الَّذِي تَقُولُ وَاللّهُ يَكْتُبُ مَا يُبَيِّتُونَ فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً (81)
And they say: Obedience. But when they leave from your presence, a party of them spend the night changing what you say; and Allah records what they change at night, so turn aside from them and trust in Allah, and it is enough that Allah is Trustee.
[Al Quran ; 4:81]

-> Wow, the above verse is like virtually talking about those hadith worshippers, remember when Ahmed Ibn Hanbal recorded in his man made hadith books 6 times that the prophet commanded the people not write anything he says but the Quran, as well Ibn Magih told us that the prophet told the people not to talk too much about him, but we know that most of the people turned back, i.e. they started to write anything the prophet says, as well talk like mad about him for 1200 years and we are still counting, 4:81 seems like describing so (indirectly): وَيَقُولُونَ طَاعَةٌ فَإِذَا بَرَزُواْ مِنْ عِندِكَ بَيَّتَ طَآئِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ غَيْرَ الَّذِي تَقُولُ , i.e. And they say: Obedience. But when they leave from your presence, a party of them spend the night changing what you say;

That is why such people cannot be obeying Allah because they were not obeying what Muhammed commanded them; in fact they were even changing what Muhammed was telling them.

We have also seen clearly so many contradictions and discrepancies in all the above hadith about stoning, yet those hadith worshippers chose to ponder upon it then spread it between them, while never ponder upon what was sent to them from Allah (the Quran), see the next verse:

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا (82)
Do they not ponder upon the Quran? And if it had been from anyone other than Allah, they would have found in it many discrepancy.
[Al Quran ; 4:82]

-> Certainly the above verse should put these man made books of rubbish hadith to shame, in the chapter about stoning, there are zillions of discrepancies. These man made books have to have all these masses of contradictions it has to be, because such they are not from Allah. This is how it beautifully and indirectly described: وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفًا كَثِيرًا , i.e. And if it had been from anyone other than Allah, they would have found in it many discrepancy.


Here you have it AGAIN, Mushrikoon and kafirs from among the hadith worshippers; another Grandmother of all slams. See this:



And I have a another surprise for al Mushrikoon and kafirs from among the hadith worshipers, enjoy:

Another surprise, anothet surprise

Salam