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Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:51 pm
by WittyBoy
I am sure you know it is not fair to kill person for leaving Islam but you have to defend it because its mentioned in the hadith. One wonders despite being educated if you know the difference between right and wrong.

I know right and wrong but not in Allah's order. In addition, I told you the reason for that order but you only dislike it which doesn't mean it's wrong.

Anyway congratulation not islam hater but you yourself now have given the first stab to your own religion and by the time this thread will end you will completely destroy it.

Destroy what?? :*) If you didn't convinced, it doesn't mean that Islam is destroyed. In the same time, if you convinced it means nothing to Islam, Islam can't be destroyed by anyone's opinion of it. :*)

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:53 pm
by WittyBoy
iffo wrote:Mr WittyBoy who cares about Old/New testament. This is mostly atheists site. There is lot of garbage in Old/New testament you want to compare yourself to garbage and feel good about yourself when you are remotely better or saying well bible say the samething.

I answer the christian with his Bible.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:59 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:
iffo wrote:Mr WittyBoy who cares about Old/New testament. This is mostly atheists site. There is lot of garbage in Old/New testament you want to compare yourself to garbage and feel good about yourself when you are remotely better or saying well bible say the samething.

I answer the christian with his Bible.


Which no no longer counts in the New Covenant, which is what the New Testament is about.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


I think verses such as this could be considered a form of semi-abrogation of past beliefs. It's interesting, some thousands of years later, the religion evolves (or de-evolved, depending on one's point of view) into Christianity and begins to evolve the beliefs. Some see even that as problematic. Why would God need to evolve his religion?? Why wasn't it evolved from the beginning? Those are legitimate questions that nobody could answer with certainty. But things like that can happen over the course of thousands of years. But what about the abrogation in the Quran?? That was only over a mere 23 year period. How can Allah change his mind and "replace it with something better" over such a short span of time??

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:08 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:Destroy what?? :*) If you didn't convinced, it doesn't mean that Islam is destroyed. In the same time, if you convinced it means nothing to Islam, Islam can't be destroyed by anyone's opinion of it. :*)


This comes from the same person who says apostates must not be allowed to speak of their apostasy as to protect the coherence and faith of the Muslim community. So he speaks boldly about how strong of a religion Islam is, but the truth of the matter is that it can't even withstand any talk or even mention of apostasy. Sounds pretty weak and insecure to me.

So there's the underlying truth. Ali Sina was exactly correct when he said Islam seems like a strong religion on the outside with a very hard shell, but it is also very brittle and can shatter very easily, which is why Muslims show this insecurity by killing apostates who mention their apostasy. This is why Muslims are so sensitive, because somewhere deep down inside, there is indeed insecurity and they can sense that there is a problem, so they stifle that thought and invent crazy lies for themselves

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:46 pm
by iffo
WittyBoy wrote:
iffo wrote:Mr WittyBoy who cares about Old/New testament. This is mostly atheists site. There is lot of garbage in Old/New testament you want to compare yourself to garbage and feel good about yourself when you are remotely better or saying well bible say the samething.

I answer the christian with his Bible.


Mr WittyBoy Islam is already destroyed because of people like yourself... look where Islam is right now .... And you are only laughing at yourself showing the world how inhumane you are and at Islam destruction. How sad.

Anyway I am sure you will be fine if west have a policy to kill anyone who convert to Islam in their countries, because they will be doing exactly what you are advocating you should have no right to complain.

Anyway would you care to comment on other hadith I quoted?

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:07 pm
by skynightblaze
@Yeezevee

Zakir is a big time fudger! I havent seen a person as hopeless as him and its surprising that many people whom I met personally asked me to refer to Naik;s arguments.The tragedy is that some of them were non muslims i.e hindus.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:39 pm
by WittyBoy
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
WittyBoy wrote:Destroy what?? :*) If you didn't convinced, it doesn't mean that Islam is destroyed. In the same time, if you convinced it means nothing to Islam, Islam can't be destroyed by anyone's opinion of it. :*)

This comes from the same person who says apostates must not be allowed to speak of their apostasy as to protect the coherence and faith of the Muslim community.

How is it different? Islam is strong, but It should protect Muslims and their community from this tumult. As any country, It may be strong but it punishes the traitor.

I remind you of something, i don't want you to tell me how to be a feeble according to new testament, but show me the situation of who leaves his religion, you don't have what abrogated the what the old testament said.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:59 pm
by WittyBoy
iffo wrote:Mr WittyBoy Islam is already destroyed because of people like yourself...

Is it me who put this rule? :*) :*)

look where Islam is right now ....

You can't say Islam now and Islam in the past, It's only Islam. Which differs is Muslims, and you can't judge Islam by Muslims. If Muslim countries not good, but Islam is moving on and making nice progress, Don't worry about Islam, Worry about yourself, and your position from the faith and religion.

My finally saying about this first hadith, If you disapprove this rule, so do you approve to let the traitor live in his country with all his freedom?! That's all.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:38 pm
by sum
Hello WittyBoy

From your last post, it would appear that you have finished with the specifics of this thread and so I will ask you again whether you believe that Muhammad stoned and ordered stoning.

Did he?

sum

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:17 pm
by WittyBoy
sword_of_truth wrote:What a silly line of argument.

Ignoring the obvious tu quoque, treason means helping the enemy actually kill your people.

We also have this thing called freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I.e. in the United States, you can insult the president as much as you please, and you can criticize and denounce the government as much as you please. You can completely disagree with, condemn, criticize, not believe in it, and you will not get in any trouble at all.

That's a COMPLETELY different thing from helping the enemy out in a actual war.

Insulting the president is OK, convincing other Americans to disobey him is OK, increasing of the number of these Americans and causing such a tumult is OK too, but if we talk about God not the president, all these acts wouldn't be OK. This corrupted cell must be treated, if no hope of it, it must go elsewhere, if not, sorry don't blame Islam when it protects its community from this cell.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:34 pm
by iffo
@WiityBoy,

Please move on to other hadith I mentioned.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:48 pm
by sword_of_truth
Insulting the president is OK, convincing other Americans to disobey him is OK, increasing of the number of these Americans and causing such a tumult is OK too, but if we talk about God not the president, all these acts wouldn't be OK.


No, if those acts are not okay with God, I have to say I don't like this God of which you speak. He should not be affected by petty human squabbles. I don't feel sorry for God at all. If I were God, I could care less that some tiny little human insulted me or was disobedient. Obviously, the hypothetical Allah doesn't care either or he would have provided a little more evidence for us to take his commands seriously.

Of course, it has never been proven that this God exists, and until it has, I am fully entitled to proclaim him to be an imaginary or hypothetical being. Even if there was a God, the Islamic arguments completely fail to prove that Islam is from Him.


This corrupted cell must be treated, if no hope of it, it must go elsewhere, if not, sorry don't blame Islam when it protects its community from this cell.


Yes, and don't blame the Nazi's for trying to exterminate the Jews. They had to purify their society. Same argument. The only difference is that you are using the authority of your big imaginary bully in the sky.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:31 pm
by fakknows
Hello to all,

its very sad and depressing to know that someone like me, who has nerver hurt anyone intentionally, always try and help people when and if i can. Always try to be modest, always say im not perfect, would do no to harm to any human both mentally/physically, that someone like me would be condemned to hell because i have left my faith. And for examples sake when i die i found out islam was the true religion, this God of islam would unhesitantly throw me in to hell. How then is this god the most-merciful.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:51 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
fakknows wrote:Hello to all,

its very sad and depressing to know that someone like me, who has nerver hurt anyone intentionally, always try and help people when and if i can. Always try to be modest, always say im not perfect, would do no to harm to any human both mentally/physically, that someone like me would be condemned to hell because i have left my faith. And for examples sake when i die i found out islam was the true religion, this God of islam would unhesitantly throw me in to hell. How then is this god the most-merciful.


That's pretty hard to explain. You point to the larger difficulty of hell itself and the contradicting lack of free will that comes with an all knowing and all powerful God

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:08 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
WittyBoy wrote:
sword_of_truth wrote:What a silly line of argument.

Ignoring the obvious tu quoque, treason means helping the enemy actually kill your people.

We also have this thing called freedom of religion and freedom of speech. I.e. in the United States, you can insult the president as much as you please, and you can criticize and denounce the government as much as you please. You can completely disagree with, condemn, criticize, not believe in it, and you will not get in any trouble at all.

That's a COMPLETELY different thing from helping the enemy out in a actual war.

Insulting the president is OK, convincing other Americans to disobey him is OK, increasing of the number of these Americans and causing such a tumult is OK too, but if we talk about God not the president, all these acts wouldn't be OK.


It all comes down to "you have rights because you have the RIGHT religion and others don't have the same rights because they have the WRONG religion", doesn't it?? Are you going to answer honestly for once in this place??

WittyBoy wrote: This corrupted cell must be treated,


Then you need to be treated quickly, because there is an illness in your mind. And you should be forced to be treated. Sound familiar??

WittyBoy wrote: if no hope of it, it must go elsewhere,


I hope you don't live in a secular, western country because that's the exact advice I would give you. But there are many Muslim hypocrites who spit at secularism, while enjoying the benefits of it and at the same time, plot it's demise. That's because Muslims are the most uneducated, hypocritical, dishonest people on the planet, and what makes it worse is that they actually believe that it's good to be that way as to gain an "advantage" and then, lie again on the other end by calling people who correctly identify this to be "Islamophobes". It's one propaganda lie after another and it was all started with Saudi/Salafist petrol dollars that created "Bucailleism". They saw that Muslims would never catch up with the kafir, so they decided that rather than catch up with them, glorify Islam and steal what they have invented by making them Muslims.

Why do you think Muslims invented that lie about Neil Armstrong (first man to walk on the moon) hearing the call to prayers and converting to Islam on the moon?? It's because Muslim pride was hurt by the kafir walking on the moon first rather than the "supposedly" superior Muslims (as they are taught) doing so first. So what to do?? Simply turn Armstrong into a Muslim and the problem is solved. :lol: I laugh, but that's actually true and it's quite dishonest, disgraceful and pathetic


WittyBoy wrote: if not, sorry don't blame Islam when it protects its community from this cell.


Gee, Christianity survived that. Why can't Islam?? Why the need to cheat and "hide" the truth?? What good can ultimately come from covering the truth? Truth triumphs over falsehood, right?? :lol: But, of course, if you need to temporarily cheat on that, that's OK. :lol:

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:26 am
by WittyBoy
sword_of_truth wrote:No, if those acts are not okay with God, I have to say I don't like this God of which you speak. He should not be affected by petty human squabbles.


But other people may be affected by these ideas, or dividing the community, or causing a tumult.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:28 am
by WittyBoy
@ bin lyin

Instead of answering other posts, why don't you answer my post to you:

I remind you of something, i don't want you to tell me how to be a feeble according to new testament, but show me the situation of who leaves his religion, you don't have what abrogated what the old testament said.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:32 am
by crazymonkie_
WittyBoy wrote:
sword_of_truth wrote:No, if those acts are not okay with God, I have to say I don't like this God of which you speak. He should not be affected by petty human squabbles.


But other people may be affected by these ideas, or dividing the community, or causing a tumult.

So killing to silence someone because they *may affect* a community is okay? And how is that anything like treason?

In treason, a person acts against a state or the representatives of that state, causing clear and present harm to that state or person.

This, that you've got here? It's just a patina, a feeble excuse to use fear, intimidation and conformity to keep the status quo. It's not treason by any stretch. Though I do know how you love to stretch, oh how you love to stretch.

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:43 am
by WittyBoy
My finally saying about this first hadith, If you disapprove this rule, so do you approve to let the traitor live in his country with all his freedom?! That's all.


Is he/she really traitor??

To be among a group of people and pronounce your disloyalty to them causing tumult among them, making some be convinced of your thoughts, and some arguing against your thoughts, It's a treason. Here's an example of how such a member can affect the group:

If they had come out with you, they would not have added to your (strength) but only (made for) disorder, hurrying to and fro in your midst and sowing sedition among you, and there would have been some among you who would have listened to them. But Allah knoweth well those who do wrong. [9:47]

A section of the People of the Book say: "Believe in the morning what is revealed to the Believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back;[3:72]

Re: Are these hadiths true WittyBoy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:49 am
by crazymonkie_
WittyBoy wrote:To be among a group of people and pronounce your disloyalty to them causing tumult among them, making some be convinced of your thoughts, and some arguing against your thoughts, It's a treason.

No, it's not.

From dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/treason
–noun
1.
the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2.
a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3.
the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.


Islam is not a government, though it pretends to be. If there was a khalifa, and he was widely accepted as khalifa, *maybe* in those regions where the khalifa held sway you'd have a case. But you don't.