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Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:52 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Well???

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 4:54 pm
by Centaur
LIE DETECTOR

Image

See its working, Aysha

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:38 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What, exactly, do you mean by the earliest days of Islam?


The days when the prophecies were made against all possible odds. What exactly wasnt clear in that, that you didnt understand.


I was looking for a date range.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And you and I both know that the Quran references mean very little without the additional, detailed info.


Which "additional, detailed info". Things such as the flying donkey and the half ice, half fire creature?


No, how about leading all the prophets in prayer and the prayer frequency, which is what we are discussing.


Eagle wrote:
Eagle wrote:Other sources of corruption came from...story-tellers and reciters of fables attaching their rich imagination to the narrations...


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I can't understand why you think that lying is OK.


Point which lie you're speaking of, because your paranoia is starting to edge on insanity.


Well, everybody else seems to think you're a liar as well.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Actually, it was the Jews. But, Yes to the rest of your twisted post. So why did we even have to have that clarification when we both knew exactly what I was talking about??


The point is the Muslims faced Jerusalem


The point is that you asked me for clarification when you admit you knew what I was talking about. So now you sidestep the question, but i won't let you.

Eagle wrote:The point is the Muslims faced Jerusalem from the beginning in their prayers,


Did the Quran tell them to do that??

Eagle wrote: meaning they always knew the location of masjid al aqsa, not suddenly after the prophet Muhammad's miraculous journey.


Can you substantiate that??

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Citation please?


Citation of who? That knowledge goes back to immemorial times,


The citation of the historian who tells you this.


Eagle wrote: to the extent that the pagans of pre islamic times never disputed such facts. Not all culture documment their history, their traditions and knowledge and the Arabs are the prime example of that.


The pre Islamic pagans never disputed the prayer direction or the sacredness of Jerusalem?

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You've rejected the authenticity of the hadiths, and now when you need them, there are "certain parts" that are now true, and they are true as you need them to be true.


Read again what you quoted, and what you were told earlier:
Eagle wrote:Tradition and known history is not always equal with hadith, just like sunna is not equal with hadith. Hadiths can contain correct history and true sunna but not always.


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Yes, Kathir is good when needed, and denied when not conveniently needed


Its not about conveniency, its about reviewing his work and pointing his errors and those of other scholars of the past, as well as confirming his true statements. Its quite idiotic from you to consider critical analysis a conveniency when it comes to religion while it is the essence of religion as dictated by the Quran itself, let alone many other fields such as science and physics for example. As regards to hadiths, some compilers may have considered the report of a person trustworthy while modern research can prove the narrator to be entirely unreliable.


I have referenced Kathir before and you did not explain what was wrong with his opinion when it disagreed with yours, you merely wrote him off as insignificant. But when you think you can use him, his opinion suddenly becomes significant

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Who wrote that??? Why didn't you quote it???


Temper your paranoia and complex. Read the names and the one who reported those narrations.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:So now, if a historical accounting of something meets your needs, it's true. But if it doesn't meet your needs, then this is due to the mischief of certain people.


Not when it meets my needs, when it is in accordance with the Quran and common traditional knowledge to the Arabs.


OK, well do you remember that hadith where it talks about how the sun will reverse it's course and rise in the west?? That doesn't conflict with the Quran at all and in fact, it claims to further expound on 36:38, and the same basic story is found 4 different tikmes throughout both Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And why was that?

A test to the Muslims, as well as explaining the fact that no direction, whther the Kaaba or Jerusalem, has any sanctity except if selected by Allah. The Quran is quite clear on that throughout sura Baqara.



Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:what was Allah finding out from this test?

Allah does not find out anything from a test. He teaches, seperates, and makes known through tests. The tests also serve as self convicting evidence on Judgement Day.


Well, in this verse, this test was to separate the faithful from the faithless at that present moment on earth, and it showed who would turn on their heels and who wouldn't. Quite frankly, that's a little pointless because I already know what I would do. So who was it showing it or proving it to?? Allah (really, Muhammad)

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well, i suppose


No, you truly are a prophet for having the holy spirit in you. You can prophesy. Your knowledge of your bible seems shallow just like your reasoning skills and general knowledge appear to be approximative.


Different thread.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I asked you a question, and it's right above and in writing. So why are you asking me to explain myself properly


Your question is not only badly worded, but it was already answered when you were explained that the prophet being shown "from our signs" can mean he was shown one sign from among many signs or several signs from among many signs.


What translation are you using? i can't find from in any of my translations. Please provide. Also, when the Quran means one sign as opposed to "signs" (plural), it says so.

2:118 (Y. Ali) Say those without knowledge: "Why speaketh not Allah unto us? or why cometh not unto us a sign?"
2:259 (Y. Ali).... And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people,
3:13 (Y. Ali)"There has already been for you a sign in the two armies that met (in combat):
3:41 (Y. Ali) He said: "O my Lord! Give me a sign!" "Thy sign," was the answer,
3:49 (Y. Ali) ...."'I have come to you, with a sign from your Lord, ....Surely therein is a sign for you if ye did believe;
5:114 (Y. Ali) ...a solemn festival and a sign from thee;
6:35 (Y. Ali) .....or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?)
6:37 (Y. Ali) They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "(Allah) hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them understand not.
6:57 (Y. Ali) Say: "For me, I (work) on a clear sign from my Lord,
6:109 (Y. Ali) They swear their strongest oaths by Allah, that if a (special) sign came to them, by it they would believe.
6:124 (Y. Ali) When there comes to them a sign (from Allah), They say:
7:73 (Y. Ali) ...Now hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a sign unto you:
7:106 (Y. Ali) (Pharaoh) said: "If indeed thou hast come with a sign, show it forth,- if thou tellest the truth."
8:42 (Y. Ali) ...that those who died might die after a clear sign (had been given), and those who lived might live after a Clear sign (had been given).
10:20 (Y. Ali) They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?
10:97 (Y. Ali) Even if every sign was brought unto them,- until they see (for themselves) the penalty grievous.

On this one, it shows that the quran really does understand the difference between sign (singular) and signs (plural), and uses the two in a very clear way.
10:92 (Y. Ali) "This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our signs!"


I think that's enough for right now, but there's plenty more. If the Quran meant that the journey itself was one sign, it would have said

"17:1 (Y. Ali) Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him a sign: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

or maybe this
"17:1 (Y. Ali) Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him one of our signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said the journey was "A" sign, as in singular. Now the liar adjusts his story. Now it IS INDEED "signs".


Little paranoid. You were told the verse is perfectly accurate with both interpretations, i took your spin to show you how it is still correct.


Let me see if i understand this correctly. The verse says "signs" (plural) and I, by default, take a plural word to mean something plural, and you are taking a plural word and attempting to spin it to mean something singular, and I am the one who is spinning?? Excuse me??


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said "sign", you liar.


And im using your interpretation to show how both understanding are correct, little paranoid.


You still said "sign" and now you are saying "signs". Exactly which word is in that verse??

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:One car means one sign or "sign", and "signs" means multiple cars or signs.


You're sinking in your paranoia again. If i say i will show you "from" my cars it either means i will show you 1 or several cars from all the cars i have. The simple example should have helped you understand.


And I'm waiting for that translation that allows for "from our signs". And even if it did end up saying that, it still is highly unlikely that the plural word of "signs" is to be taken as "one of many signs". I have more than sufficiently demonstrated how the quran communicates a singular sign, and it most vcertainly does not do it like 17:1 does, because 17:1 is most certainly talking about many signs.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Then why did you use the word "sign" in singular fashion?


The journey itself is a sign, among many signs from God. Do you understand now.


I've always understood you and it's wrong. i want to see that translation.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Believe me, these games will not work.


Which games, little paranoid.


No, the evasiveness that everybody sees. I'm not the only one.


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Why should it be considered to be paranoia when I actually continually prove my point and you continually run out of answers?


Maybe you should point such instance for once


Every single thread we have participated is an instance. You raise a point, I shoot holes through it, and you move on and pretend it never even happened. That is what happened in every single thread. You could no longer answer my challenges and it's all in writing.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Send a message back to the cockroach farm that it doesn't work in this kitchen.


lol

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:By introducing a term that has no specific bearing as to get the conversation to go somewhere else.


The term was actually quite appropriate since it defines my purpose by telling you how to ask a question relevant to the discussion (the meaning of masjid) in a way that abases you.


It was nothing but yet another diversion. It means a place where people gather to worship. There. Is that so hard?? Big deal??

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Quote how you specifically spelled it out.


Go there where you and your people were explained that no additional scripture is needed to know the location of the sacred mosque, and the farthest mosque viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7592&start=180#p122353


And i asked further questions about this that you did not answer.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I asked you very clearly and very plainly whether the sunna that you raised in interest to this particular topic, was written before 17:1 was recited or not.


And you were "clearly and very plainly" explained that the prophet was in charge of explaining the commands given in the Quran, before the writing of any hadith.


What about the command to face Jerusalem?? The Quran only mentions Jerusalem as the prayer direction well after Muslims were already facing that way. So something else besides the Quran guided them to do that. What was that??


Eagle wrote: This means when the Muslims were ordered to pray in the early days, they were told by the prophet to face a certain direction,


On what authority did Muhammad do this?? This was not in the Quran at that time.


Eagle wrote: and that direction was Jerusalem as you and your people were educated a few posts back.


We already knew it was Jerusalem you moron, so you didn't teach anybody anything.


Eagle wrote: This means they always knew where masjid al aqsa was located


No, not always, there was a time when Muhammad told them this. So when was that and what source do you use to ascertain that?

Eagle wrote: because it was the furthest in relation to the Kaaba, and did not just face an unknown direction before the prophet's miraculous journey.


I do not know when he was supposed to have taken that journey and when the prayer direction became Jerusalem and you have provided nothing but your own conjecture. That's all it is unless you can substantiate it.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:and give us a straight yes or no answer:?"??


You're typing nervously on your keyboard. Temper your paranoia.


And, of course, you're not going to give a straight yes or no answer. that is termed "evasiveness". It's a negative term in my culture, but obviously, it's a positive one in yours. :lol:

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What did they know about the journey


That the prophet was miraculously transported from point A (Kaaba) to point B (Jerusalem), and this in itself is a sign from the signs of Allah.


Well, I already explained why the Quran did indeed means "signs" (plural) just like it said and it would seem as though the translators agree. Where is your translation coming from?? I would like to see it.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:42 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Centaur wrote:LIE DETECTOR


He thinks he's doing well here. He doesn't think that other people think he's a liar. Either that, or he's even lying about that. :lol:

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:48 pm
by yeezevee
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
What is the proper translation for 17:1? Shakir is supposed to be the best. Here's what he says.

17:1: Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.


Why Shakir? Go to robot's translation and throw the dung on his face., here http://www.free-islam.com/modules.php?n ... opic&t=787


سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ (1)

Glory be to Him Who caused His servant to travel at night from the sacred mosque to the distant mosque whose surrounding We have blessed, so that We show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
[Al Quran ; 17:1]

So, Muhammad Traveling in Night is sign of Allah ; Prophet of Islam Pissing is a sign of Allah., Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) have sex with 9 year old is sign of Allah., Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) marrying his adopted son means, it is a sign of Allah.. so on and on..

Foolish peple stupid book...

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:39 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
yeezevee wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
What is the proper translation for 17:1? Shakir is supposed to be the best. Here's what he says.

17:1: Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.


Why Shakir? Go to robot's translation and throw the dung on his face., here http://www.free-islam.com/modules.php?n ... opic&t=787

Glory be to Him Who caused His servant to travel at night from the sacred mosque to the distant mosque whose surrounding We have blessed, so that We show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
[Al Quran ; 17:1] [/b][/i]
So, Muhammad Traveling in Night is sign of Allah ; Prophet of Islam Pissing is a sign of Allah., Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) have sex with 9 year old is sign of Allah., Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) marrying his adopted son means, it is a sign of Allah.. so on and on..

Foolish peple stupid book...


BagHat?? Any comment??

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:57 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:Lol, Brother Eagle just slam dunked ugly inmate bin fagin; this must be added to my slam dunk show:

Image Slam Dunk #97


So once again, every single point got answered of Eagle's and you still can't answer my proof that says the Quran only mentions three prayer times. That's where it stands, liar.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:08 pm
by Eagle
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Eagle, can you tell me the translator that says "from our signs"?? I can't find it. Please give me the entire translation you are using.


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What is the proper translation for 17:1?


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well???


You're not on an instant messenger, why would you expect an instant reply to your paranoid tirades

Im not using any translation, Im using Arabic. The particle "min" means 1 thing OR many things out of a greater whole. Whether it is translated as "of our signs" or "from our signs", it still carries the same meaning.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I was looking for a date range.


The Quranic chronology is enough to understand that these prophecies were made very early.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:No, how about leading all the prophets in prayer and the prayer frequency, which is what we are discussing.


The flying donkey, the half ice, half fire creature and the alleged prayer frequency incident are all part of the tale of the miraj, alien to the Quran, which is supposed to have happened in a location following the prophet's arrival to his destination per the Quran. It is therefore irrelevant and could very well be a later addition.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well, everybody else seems to think you're a liar as well.


It could be group hysteria and paranoia because you apparently cant point any supposed "lie"

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The point is that you asked me for clarification when you admit you knew what I was talking about.


You're all over the place once again, you claimed masjid al aqsa "was never mentioned in the Quran". You were educated that it was.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Did the Quran tell them to do that??


The Quran did not tell them "face Jerusalem in your prayers". It told them to turn to the Kaaba, away from their previous Qibla. That previous qibla was masjid al aqsa in Jerusalem as explained to them by the prophet in the earliest days of Islam.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Can you substantiate that??


Did the Muslims pray in a certain direction before the prophet's journey, or didnt they

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The citation of the historian who tells you this.


The historian who says what

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The pre Islamic pagans never disputed the prayer direction or the sacredness of Jerusalem?


They never disputed their ancestry to Ismail and Ibrahim, and the fact it was them who built the Kaaba.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I have referenced Kathir before and you did not explain what was wrong with his opinion when it disagreed with yours


You are most probably lying, otherwise you could easily bring the quote

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, well do you remember that hadith where it talks about how the sun will reverse it's course and rise in the west?


I dont, maybe you could bring it

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:That doesn't conflict with the Quran at all and in fact, it claims to further expound on 36:38


Bring it and show how it does not conflict with the verse. However you should also be aware that the Quran tells us to inquire any saying in light, not only of the Quran but also of common sense. This means if the hadith contradicts a proven scientific knowledge (which is probably your argument) then it is discarded.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well, in this verse, this test was to separate the faithful from the faithless at that present moment on earth


Right

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Quite frankly, that's a little pointless because I already know what I would do.


You know what you would do but you will not be held accountable for it unless you do it, also you never really know what will be your reaction to a situation because many future unknown variables, internal and external to you, will affect your decision process. The Quran has many verses recounting how some Muslims would swear they would react in a certain way if a certain situation arises, yet they did the exact opposite when the test came.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It means a place where people gather to worship.


No that is not the meaning of masjid

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:On what authority did Muhammad do this?


The prophet Muhammad was under God's authority, he was commanded to further expand on the general commands of the Quran, by the quran itself 16:44

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:We already knew it was Jerusalem


Which casts doubts on your people's ability to connect the dots. If you knew the first qibla was Jerusalem, then how can you claim that masjid al aqsa being in Jerusalem was an unknown fact until the night journey? The Muslims faced an unknown direction in their prayer, before the journey?

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:12 pm
by Eagle
AhmedBahgat wrote:Lol, Brother Eagle just slam dunked ugly inmate bin fagin; this must be added to my slam dunk show:

Image Slam Dunk #97


lol bro. He is stupid, isnt he

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:00 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Eagle, can you tell me the translator that says "from our signs"?? I can't find it. Please give me the entire translation you are using.


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What is the proper translation for 17:1?


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well???


You're not on an instant messenger, why would you expect an instant reply to your paranoid tirades

Im not using any translation, Im using Arabic.


Translate the verse for me please and then explain why it is different from all of the translators that i can find. Thank you.

Eagle wrote: The particle "min" means 1 thing OR many things out of a greater whole.


Actually, we are talking about "from our signs" that none of the translators seem to have. I want to see you make this verse work with that in it. I want to see the whole verse translated and i have a very good reason for asking this and you know what that reason is which is why you avoid it.


Eagle wrote: Whether it is translated as "of our signs" or "from our signs", it still carries the same meaning.


No it does not, and if you think it actually means "of our signs", as your buddy BagHat translates it, then you needed to say that in the first place. Instead, we get something different. And you don't think people shouldn't mistrust you? Now I gave you a ton of verse from the Quran that clearly show how the Quran treats singular signs. It treats them in a singular fashion as it should. It says "sign" when it means one sign, and "signs" when it means multiple signs. Not too hard to figure out.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I was looking for a date range.


The Quranic chronology is enough to understand that these prophecies were made very early.


OK, so you don't know. And that was my point of asking. Thank you.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:No, how about leading all the prophets in prayer and the prayer frequency, which is what we are discussing.


The flying donkey, the half ice, half fire creature and the alleged prayer frequency incident are all part of the tale of the miraj, alien to the Quran, which is supposed to have happened in a location following the prophet's arrival to his destination per the Quran. It is therefore irrelevant and could very well be a later addition.


And i say it is not and he told that story before he uttered 17:1, because he did the same thing with the battle of Badr, where he gave no details because they already knew the details. Same thing with the night journey. And, i have Muslim scholars that agree with me that praying 5 times per day clearly came from the night journey story.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well, everybody else seems to think you're a liar as well.

It could be group hysteria and paranoia because you apparently cant point any supposed "lie"


Sure, just invent any excuse for yourself that you can. :lol: It's your world to create however you want it to be. :lol:

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The point is that you asked me for clarification when you admit you knew what I was talking about.


You're all over the place once again, you claimed masjid al aqsa "was never mentioned in the Quran". You were educated that it was.


I asked you why you asked me for clarification when you already knew what i was talking about, and you still refuse to simply answer this question. That's part of your lying. This is why everybody sees you as a liar. Everybody except for your fellow brainwashed Muslims, because they are forced to agree with a fellow Muslim whether they think he's actually right or not. It's the old "us" verses "them" ethos that Islam is so well known for and is one of the main reasons people dislike Muslims so much.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Did the Quran tell them to do that??


The Quran did not tell them "face Jerusalem in your prayers".


WOW!!!! that's the first, actual, straightforward answer I think I've ever gotten from you. Thank you.

Eagle wrote:It told them to turn to the Kaaba, away from their previous Qibla. That previous qibla was masjid al aqsa in Jerusalem as explained to them by the prophet in the earliest days of Islam.


And by what authority dod the prophet make this recommendation if it is not in the Quran?

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Can you substantiate that??


Did the Muslims pray in a certain direction before the prophet's journey, or didnt they


I don't know for sure, which is why I'm asking you to back up your claim. And don't forget, the main thrust of my point is not the prayer direction, it's the prayer frequency, and I haven't forgotten that you have never actually explained why the Quran tells us to pray 5 times per day. i don't remember you ever laying the verse out on the table. I remember BagHat attempting to do so, but i don;'t recalkl you doing so. I only recall you merely making the unsubstantiated claim.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The citation of the historian who tells you this.


The historian who says what


What you are claiming. Is this going to turn into some sort of childish little game?

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The pre Islamic pagans never disputed the prayer direction or the sacredness of Jerusalem?


They never disputed their ancestry to Ismail and Ibrahim, and the fact it was them who built the Kaaba.


Citation?? It really makes me wonder why none of them circumsized themselves if they felt such a strong connection to Abraham. Seems to me that this connection was actually established by Muhammad.


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I have referenced Kathir before and you did not explain what was wrong with his opinion when it disagreed with yours


You are most probably lying, otherwise you could easily bring the quote


That's fine, I'll find it

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, well do you remember that hadith where it talks about how the sun will reverse it's course and rise in the west?


I dont, maybe you could bring it


OK. No problem.

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.

Sahih Muslim
Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.


I can't see where this conflicts with the Quran, i can't see where the narrator is considered unreliable and it is repeated across both Bukhari and Muslim. seems pretty solid to me.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:That doesn't conflict with the Quran at all and in fact, it claims to further expound on 36:38


Bring it and show how it does not conflict with the verse. However you should also be aware that the Quran tells us to inquire any saying in light, not only of the Quran but also of common sense. This means if the hadith contradicts a proven scientific knowledge (which is probably your argument) then it is discarded.


It didn't contradict a proven scientific knowledge back when Muhammad uttered it. In fact, it actually reinforced and confirmed the common erroneous view that everyone had about the cause of day and night back then. So that makes it even doubly convincing. It matched their science or beliefs of the time perfectly. There would have been nothing crazy sounding about the question of where the sun goes at night back then, but today, anybody who asks that question would be looked at as a lunatic. You can't simply, arbitrarily change the meaning of the Quran nor any hadith simply because science has made a new discovery. That is horribly flawed and self serving.


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well, in this verse, this test was to separate the faithful from the faithless at that present moment on earth


Right


And who needed to know?? The people themselves or Allah?? You said people need to know why they are going to be punished on resurrection day and that this is why Allah tests them, but in this case, it's not talking about resurrection day

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Quite frankly, that's a little pointless because I already know what I would do.


You know what you would do but you will not be held accountable for it unless you do it,


But that's resurrection day. There's a present moment knowledge that needs to be ascertained in this situation, and it is Allah who needs to ascertain it, not the people themselves.

Eagle wrote: also you never really know what will be your reaction to a situation because many future unknown variables, internal and external to you, will affect your decision process.


Suppose i don't even need to know whether I am one of the faithful or not?? this is talking about knowledge in the present time, not resurrection day.

Eagle wrote: The Quran has many verses recounting how some Muslims would swear they would react in a certain way if a certain situation arises, yet they did the exact opposite when the test came.


And Allah proved their words to be false and proved that they were knowingly lying. so who did he prove that to? The person lying?? They already knew that. Allah found out by testing them. and really, it was actually Muhammad who found out.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It means a place where people gather to worship.


Eagle wrote:No that is not the meaning of masjid


Yes it is. The word masjid means 'place of prostration'. I doubt that means a place where only one person prostrates.


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:On what authority did Muhammad do this?


The prophet Muhammad was under God's authority, he was commanded to further expand on the general commands of the Quran, by the quran itself 16:44


43. And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know--
44. With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

This is saying to remind people of what the scriptures say. It says nothing about expanding them. This is yet another word that you are trying to slip in that simply is not there. Now where is the Quranic instruction to face Jerusalem?

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:We already knew it was Jerusalem


Which casts doubts on your people's ability to connect the dots. If you knew the first qibla was Jerusalem, then how can you claim that masjid al aqsa being in Jerusalem was an unknown fact until the night journey?


Because I do not know when Muslims first considered it as such and you have offered no substantiation to any of your conjecture. Pretty simple. what part don't you understand??

Eagle wrote:The Muslims faced an unknown direction in their prayer, before the journey?


I don;t know. do you?? If so, substantiate it. That's all I'm asking for. and the prayer direction isn't even the main crux of my point, it's the prayer frequency that is, and again, i can't see where yo spelled out all of the Quranic verses that tells us for sure that one should pray 5 times per day, and I even offered an article from a very reputable source which agrees with me and you essentially ignored it because it didn't fit you argument. This is why everybody thinks you are so dishonest, and I have a hard time believing that you don't already know that. What i can't figure out is how you tell yourself that God approves of your behavior, which is at minimum, tremendously evasive and at maximum, outright lying.

So here's another perfectly appropriate question for you to ignore. Given all the rules you stipulated about how to accept some hadiths while rejecting others, tell us all of the rules that the night journey story breaks. I don't see where it conflicts with the Quran and the source is widely held as very reliable.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:30 am
by Eagle
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Translate the verse for me please and then explain why it is different from all of the translators that i can find. Thank you.


There is no difference between "of our signs" and "from our signs". Both can be speaking of 1 sign or several signs from or of many signs.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:if you think it actually means "of our signs"


I dont think, it can be translated both ways without changing the meaning

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, so you don't know.


How could i, or anyone who has been passed sura fatiha, not know that the Quran is repleat with prophecies of Mecca's conquest, in the earliest days of Islam.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And i say it is not and he told that story before he uttered 17:1


Of course his followers were informed of the journey before the revelation of 17:1. What is your point exactly

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Sure, just invent any excuse for yourself that you can.


You mean the "excuse" that you are paranoid for constantly calling people liars without being able to quote them lying once

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I asked you why you asked me for clarification when you already knew what i was talking about


Why would you be asked for clarification on your ignorance that masjid al aqsa wasnt present in the Quran. You werent

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And by what authority dod the prophet make this recommendation if it is not in the Quran?


The prophet Muhammad was under God's authority, didnt you know that. Also, anybody familiar with the Quran understands that the prophet Muhammad received revelation otuside the Quran. For example, the Holy Book states that the Prophet was to wait for the command to make hijra. This command is not found anywhere in the Quran.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I don't know for sure


You obviously dont. Did the Quran tell the believers to turn to the Kaaba, away from their previous Qibla or not

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:you have never actually explained why the Quran tells us to pray 5 times per day


You mean "where". The brother spoon fed it to your people quite acurately.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It didn't contradict a proven scientific knowledge back when Muhammad uttered it.


If it blatantly contradicts common sense as you claim, it cannot be attributed to the prophet meaning what you will show at most is what no Muslim will contend with you; the weakness of hadiths.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said people need to know why they are going to be punished on resurrection day and that this is why Allah tests them, but in this case, it's not talking about resurrection day


This what you were told:
Eagle wrote:Allah does not find out anything from a test. He teaches, seperates, and makes known through tests. The tests also serve as self convicting evidence on Judgement Day.


Of course the verse you presented is not speaking of JDay, however the people's reaction to the test will be presented on that Day for them to convict themselves

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:There's a present moment knowledge that needs to be ascertained in this situation, and it is Allah who needs to ascertain it


Many verses speaking of tests, say in the same breath that Allah already knows the outcome. The purpose is therefore not for Allah to find out anything, see above and also there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5256&start=540

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:who did he prove that to? The person lying?? They already knew that


They were convinced, just like you, of what would be their reaction in a certain situation yet they did the opposite so no, they did not know how they would react in reality.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It means a place where people gather to worship

Eagle wrote:No that is not the meaning of masjid

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Yes it is. The word masjid means 'place of prostration'


Thank God for google providing you with a quick fix, lol

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:43. And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know--
44. With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

This is saying to remind people of what the scriptures say. It says nothing about expanding them.


Really. What does "that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them" mean to you. Many other verses speak of the prophet Muhammad as being the believers' teacher, teaching them the Book and the Wisdom, refering to the body and soul of the sharia respectively.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Now where is the Quranic instruction to face Jerusalem?


Who said that instruction is present in the Quran

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Because I do not know when Muslims first considered it as such


How could you not know when the Muslims considered Jerusalem to be their first qibla, while at the same time admitting they did face Jerusalem in the beginning

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:tell us all of the rules that the night journey story breaks


The journey's destination was masjid al aqsa per the Quran, located in Jerusalem as confirmed in the same hadith that allege the prophet was then taken to another destination after his arrival.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:49 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Translate the verse for me please and then explain why it is different from all of the translators that i can find. Thank you.


There is no difference between "of our signs" and "from our signs". Both can be speaking of 1 sign or several signs from or of many signs.


If there's no difference, then why did you say "from our signs" rather than "of our signs"? And it's because they really don't sound the same. The truth of the matter is that you cannot make that verse work in a sentence that says "from our signs".

Glory be to Him Who caused His servant to travel at night from the sacred mosque to the distant mosque whose surrounding We have blessed, so that We show him from Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

Show him what from our signs?? A sign from our signs?? It doesn't say. It's awkward. But, "we show him OF our signs" CAN make sense by itself and the question of "what from our signs" or "what of our signs" doesn't need to come up because show him of our signs usually means, "show him our signs" . The "of" is just an additional formality. That's why so many translators agree with me, not you.


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And i say it is not and he told that story before he uttered 17:1


Of course his followers were informed of the journey before the revelation of 17:1. What is your point exactly


My point is that 17:1 goes into no details because those details were already provided by Muhammad and the night journey story was indeed uttered by Muhammad, including leading all of the "who's who" of prophets in prayer and continually going back to Allah to get the prayer frequency lowered and hence set it at 5 times per day. Praying 5 times per day does not come from the Quran it comes from the night journey, and the article i linked said so as well..

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Sure, just invent any excuse for yourself that you can.


You mean the "excuse" that you are paranoid for constantly calling people liars without being able to quote them lying once


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I asked you why you asked me for clarification when you already knew what i was talking about


Why would you be asked for clarification on your ignorance that masjid al aqsa wasnt present in the Quran.


I don't know why you would but you did. Go back and read it. and then, when i ask you about, you try to sweep it aside and say "the point is......"

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And by what authority dod the prophet make this recommendation if it is not in the Quran?


The prophet Muhammad was under God's authority, didnt you know that.


He was only supposed to be a messenger and only speak what is recited to him. The Quran says nothing about Muhammad making up rules

Eagle wrote: Also, anybody familiar with the Quran understands that the prophet Muhammad received revelation otuside the Quran. For example, the Holy Book states that the Prophet was to wait for the command to make hijra. This command is not found anywhere in the Quran.


What do you mean by the Holy Book?? The Quran??

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I don't know for sure



Eagle wrote:You obviously dont. Did the Quran tell the believers to turn to the Kaaba, away from their previous Qibla or not


Well of course. that's what it says. Why did you ask that when there was never disagreement about that??


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:you have never actually explained why the Quran tells us to pray 5 times per day


You mean "where". The brother spoon fed it to your people quite acurately.


And i proved him wrong and he fell silent. Go back and read it. There's only three times. I laid it out and he had nothing to say.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It didn't contradict a proven scientific knowledge back when Muhammad uttered it.


If it blatantly contradicts common sense as you claim,


Not the common sense of a 7th century person. They believed the sun orbited the earth everyday, so to say that one day the sun will reverse it's course and rise in the west is perfect common sense to them. It just turned out that centuries later, science found out differently. That is a really, really embarrassing and yet authentic hadith.

Eagle wrote: it cannot be attributed to the prophet meaning what you will show at most is what no Muslim will contend with you; the weakness of hadiths.


Why can't it be attributed to the prophet?? You haven't explained that.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said people need to know why they are going to be punished on resurrection day and that this is why Allah tests them, but in this case, it's not talking about resurrection day


This what you were told:
Eagle wrote:Allah does not find out anything from a test. He teaches, seperates, and makes known through tests. The tests also serve as self convicting evidence on Judgement Day.


Of course the verse you presented is not speaking of JDay,


Correct and that was my point.

Eagle wrote: however the people's reaction to the test will be presented on that Day for them to convict themselves


But it was also to separate them at that moment as well, and the test wasn't designed to show them who has faith right then and there and who doesn't, it was designed to show Allah that so that he may separate them.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:There's a present moment knowledge that needs to be ascertained in this situation, and it is Allah who needs to ascertain it


Eagle wrote:Many verses speaking of tests, say in the same breath that Allah already knows the outcome. The purpose is therefore not for Allah to find out anything, see above and also there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5256&start=540



We've been through those and none of those verses were very convincing. They all had little holes or problems with the way you tried to use them

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It means a place where people gather to worship

Eagle wrote:No that is not the meaning of masjid

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Yes it is. The word masjid means 'place of prostration'


Thank God for google providing you with a quick fix, lol


Place or worship, place of prostration, same thing. i was right from the beginning and I said it right from the beginning.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:43. And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation-- so ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know--
44. With clear arguments and scriptures; and We have revealed to you the Reminder that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them, and that haply they may reflect.

This is saying to remind people of what the scriptures say. It says nothing about expanding them.


Really. What does "that you may make clear to men what has been revealed to them" mean to you.


Verse number please?? I never trust any verse you reference because you have a funny little habit of tweaking them. It means recite the words from the Quran which makes it clear for men.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote: Many other verses speak of the prophet Muhammad as being the believers' teacher, teaching them the Book and the Wisdom, refering to the body and soul of the sharia respectively.


Sure, and he taught them where the sun goes at night and what 36:38 is really referring to. :lol:

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Now where is the Quranic instruction to face Jerusalem?


Who said that instruction is present in the Quran


I didn't say you did, i asked. and the answer is no, it's not in there.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Because I do not know when Muslims first considered it as such


Eagle wrote:How could you not know when the Muslims considered Jerusalem to be their first qibla, while at the same time admitting they did face Jerusalem in the beginning


I don't recall admitting that they faced Jerusalem from the very beginning and in fact., i do not know when they started doing this and you have still yet to provide any substantiations.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:tell us all of the rules that the night journey story breaks


The journey's destination was masjid al aqsa per the Quran, located in Jerusalem as confirmed in the same hadith that allege the prophet was then taken to another destination after his arrival.
[/quote]

You heard the question the first ime, and now i will repeat it. What rule was broken there to make us invalidate the night journey story?? You said that if it breaks a rule or disagrees with the Quran or the narrator is not to be trusted, then it is to be discarded. I can't see any of that in the night journey story. Oh, and I don't mean in the Quran because that's just one semi vague verse mentioned to merely remind people of the larger story Muhammad already must have told.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:41 am
by Ram
-Peace- wrote:ROFL @ Ahmed using "dismissed", "filthy", "arse", and "punk" in most of his posts. I wonder why he is even on these forums if he doesn't want to have a civil discussion and wants to "dismiss" questions asked to him.

AhmedBahgat is one very frustrated Muslim. I feel sorry for him. He desperately wants to reconcile what is in the Quran with his liberal outlook of life. I am sure that he is absolutely confused with the contradictions between the Quran and the Hadiths. He has made a choice - he has rejected the Hadiths. This is a step in the right direction, but only a first step. His brain is telling him to throw the Quran in the dustbin but his heart wants him to still believe in it. Right now his heart has the upper hand but his brain is not going to give in so easily. Hence this intense struggle resulting in agonizing frustration manifesting in abusive language. He is not so stupid, he is pretty smart for a Muslim. But Islam is very corrosive, it is melting his brain.

Let us not take him personally. We need him in the Forum. He is a classic study in the mind of a frustrated Muslim living in Australia where he sees very beautiful powerful women running businesses, occupying many important positions in the governments, taking part in sports, arts and literature along side men on equal footing. But when he sees Muslim women shrouded in grotesque garments covering their faces, isolated, leading useless lives as sex slaves and servants of their husbands, mired in ignorance, wasting their time reciting meaningless prayers five times a day. That alone in itself will take a toll on the psych any sane Muslim. He is not even sane.

He is translating the Quran. His task is a difficult one. He must give new interpretation to the Quraic verses, trying to invent new meanings to Arabic words. He is trying to do his Prophet's job - a great challenge. How do you change the meaning of the word "rape" and make it sound like the Prophet was giving the women pleasure of his member? How do you change the meaning of the word "kill" and make it mean that he was freeing Jews from the pain of kaffir life? I am sure you guys understand what I am saying. Let us be kind.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:35 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=28425

Allah glorifies Himself, for His ability to do that which none but He can do, for there is no God but He and no Lord besides Him.

[الَّذِى أَسْرَى بِعَبْدِهِ]

(Who took His servant for a Journey) refers to Muhammad

[لَيْلاً]

(by Night) means, in the depths of the night.

[مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ]

(from Al-Masjid Al-Haram) means the Masjid in Makkah.

[إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الاٌّقْصَى]

(to Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa,) means the Sacred House which is in Jerusalem, the origin of the Prophets from the time of Ibrahim Al-Khalil. The Prophets all gathered there, and he (Muhammad ) led them in prayer in their own homeland. This indicates that he is the greatest leader of all, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and upon them.

[الَّذِى بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ]

(the neighborhood whereof We have blessed) means, its agricultural produce and fruits are blessed

[لِنُرِيَهُ]

(in order that We might show him), i.e., Muhammad

[مِنْ ءَايَـتِنَا]

(of Our Ayat.) i.e., great signs. As Allah says:

[لَقَدْ رَأَى مِنْ ءَايَـتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَى ]

(Indeed he did see of the greatest signs, of his Lord (Allah).) (53:18)


So it would appear as though 53 also gets related to this story. Let's take a look

7. And he is in the highest part of the horizon.

8. Then he drew near, then he bowed

9. So he was the measure of two bows or closer still.

10. And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

11. The heart was not untrue in (making him see) what he saw.

12. What! do you then dispute with him as to what he saw?


How could we dispute with what he saw when it doesn't say what he saw?? How can we know what he revealed when it doesn't say? But, if he already told the story of his ascension to heaven during the night journey, then it all makes perfect sense.

13. And certainly he saw him in another descent,

14. At the farthest lote-tree;

15. Near which is the garden, the place to be resorted to.

16. When that which covers covered the lote-tree;


So here, Muhammad is near the garden, and I suppose the tree. What is the lote tree?? This article seemed to give a reasonable explanation
The Lote Tree is not an actual tree on Earth, but a mystical Islamic metaphor concerning the uppermost boundary in knowledge a human being can possess concerning God. It comes from the Qur'an chapter 53, An-Najm (The Star), verses 10-18 and alludes to Muhammad's night journey from Mecca to Jerusalem and then through Heaven. "The Lote Tree of the farthest boundary," as it is called, is believed to be the farthest anyone can travel in Heaven in their approach to God; beyond this none can pass. The following are the Quranic verses from which this term is derived (Qur'an 53:10–18):


17. The eye did not turn aside, nor did it exceed the limit.

18. Certainly he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.


What signs?? It does not say because it knows the people already know about the night journey. It was merely referencing it like it did with the battle of Badr, where the additional details and what is was referencing was already very well known, and therefore the Quran did not have to provide this.

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:13 am
by Eagle
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:If there's no difference, then why did you say "from our signs" rather than "of our signs"?


Because im not using a translation, im reading from the Arabic. Do you understand now.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:And it's because they really don't sound the same.


Maybe in your world. The prophet Muhammad being shown "from our signs" or "of our signs" means the same. He is either shown 1 sign or several signs from, or of many signs.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:My point is that 17:1 goes into no details because those details were already provided by Muhammad and the night journey story was indeed uttered by Muhammad


Of course it was, what made you think it wasnt

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:including leading all of the "who's who" of prophets in prayer and continually going back to Allah to get the prayer frequency lowered and hence set it at 5 times per day.


This is hardly acceptable because the event is said to have happened in a location following the journey's destination, per the Quran.
Again:
Eagle wrote:The journey's destination was masjid al aqsa per the Quran, located in Jerusalem as confirmed in the same hadith that allege the prophet was then taken to another destination after his arrival.


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Praying 5 times per day does not come from the Quran


Go there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7592&start=160#p122193. What part of the brother's accurate answer didnt you understand

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I don't know why you would but you did.


I did not ask you for clarification on your ignorance that masjid al aqsa wasnt present in the Quran. It is your paranoia resurfacing.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:He was only supposed to be a messenger and only speak what is recited to him.


So the prophet never spoke unless he received revelation

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:The Quran says nothing about Muhammad making up rules


Of course he never did. What makes you think he did

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What do you mean by the Holy Book?? The Quran??


Of course, the letter for letter Word of God

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Well of course. that's what it says.


If you know it does tell the believers to turn to the Kaaba, away from their previous Qibla, why do you contend with the fact they knew they were facing Jerusalem. Did they happen to pray in to an unknown direction? They always knew where masjid al aqsa/the furthest mosque was located because it was the furthest in relation to the sacred mosque/Kaaba, and did not just face an unknown direction before the prophet's miraculous journey.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I laid it out and he had nothing to say.


Its your low mental age that makes you think that when an adult turns away from you, that you actually made a point against him while the truth of the matter is that the reality flies far above your understanding.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Not the common sense of a 7th century person. They believed the sun orbited the earth everyday


Yes, how does this affect the Quran verse in question

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Place or worship, place of prostration, same thing.


Not the same thing

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Verse number please?


It is the verse you quoted yourself

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I didn't say you did, i asked. and the answer is no, it's not in there.


Now that you got your answer, explain your point. Or was it another irrelevance

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:I don't recall admitting that they faced Jerusalem from the very beginning


Eagle wrote:In Mecca, long before any interraction with the Medinian Jews, the early Muslims prayed in its direction.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Prayed in the direction of Jerusalem, until the Jews still did not accept Islam even after Muhammad's overtures..


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You heard the question the first ime, and now i will repeat it.


You dont need to and i heard you well. Re-read what you quoted, the miraj conflicts with the Quran because it speaks of a location following the journey's final destination per the Quran.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:How could we dispute with what he saw when it doesn't say what he saw?


Ignorant. Read the Sura from the beginning

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:What signs?


The signs are all referenced in the verses you quoted. What part didnt you understand exaclty

Re: Praying/Fasting/Hajj in Quran?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:12 pm
by Centaur
lie detector going large

Image

shame less mohammedan liars.