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Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:24 pm
by skynightblaze
Q wrote:But to reduce the importance of and counter the above declaration made by the Holy Prophet another statement has also been narrated from the Holy Prophet on the authority of Abu Haraira whose reliability has remained always questionable. His narration is that the Holy Prophet said:
‘I have left among you two things : if you adhere to them both, you shall not go astray after me; ie., the Book of God and my Sunnah.’

The text itself does not stand a sound critical scrutiny. There is no doubt that the Sunnah in the sense of the Holy Prophet’s Sayings , actions and endorsement has the same authoritative status as the Qur’an, but the question is that the Qur’an was in a written form and distinctly recorded to be referred to while the Holy Prophet’s Sunnah was not then recorded in a distinct form to be adhered to when disputes would arise. On the contrary the disputants used to take advantage of the unrecorded Sunnah against each other. Therefore, to declare such a controversial source to have the same authoritative status as the Qur’an would not only be meaningless but would mean encouraging controversies . The tern Itrat or Ahl al-bayt was well defined and known to everybody as the embodiment of the teachings of the Holy Prophet. In short, to follow the Sunnah as it is in our hands will lead to controversies and errors but to follow the Itrat along with the Qur’an would mean following the Kitab and Sunnah in its true sense which would save the adherents from going astray and committing errors. Therefore, we shall leave the tradition of Abu Huraira to himself and his followers


Neither was quran recorded properly . The part in red happened with quran too. There was a disagreement over the copies of quran. Isnt it surprising you guys can only pick the faults in others but at the same time cant see the same faults with what you believe? Going by your logic quran too should be discarded. All these excuses are an desperate attempt to acquit Muhhamad of the horrible crimes that he committed and avoid answering the hadiths which expose and show us that he was a fake prophet.

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:07 am
by Q
Spoiler! :
skynightblaze wrote:
Q wrote:But to reduce the importance of and counter the above declaration made by the Holy Prophet another statement has also been narrated from the Holy Prophet on the authority of Abu Haraira whose reliability has remained always questionable. His narration is that the Holy Prophet said:
‘I have left among you two things : if you adhere to them both, you shall not go astray after me; ie., the Book of God and my Sunnah.’

The text itself does not stand a sound critical scrutiny. There is no doubt that the Sunnah in the sense of the Holy Prophet’s Sayings , actions and endorsement has the same authoritative status as the Qur’an, but the question is that the Qur’an was in a written form and distinctly recorded to be referred to while the Holy Prophet’s Sunnah was not then recorded in a distinct form to be adhered to when disputes would arise. On the contrary the disputants used to take advantage of the unrecorded Sunnah against each other. Therefore, to declare such a controversial source to have the same authoritative status as the Qur’an would not only be meaningless but would mean encouraging controversies . The tern Itrat or Ahl al-bayt was well defined and known to everybody as the embodiment of the teachings of the Holy Prophet. In short, to follow the Sunnah as it is in our hands will lead to controversies and errors but to follow the Itrat along with the Qur’an would mean following the Kitab and Sunnah in its true sense which would save the adherents from going astray and committing errors. Therefore, we shall leave the tradition of Abu Huraira to himself and his followers


Neither was quran recorded properly . The part in red happened with quran too. There was a disagreement over the copies of quran. Isnt it surprising you guys can only pick the faults in others but at the same time cant see the same faults with what you believe? Going by your logic quran too should be discarded. All these excuses are an desperate attempt to acquit Muhhamad of the horrible crimes that he committed and avoid answering the hadiths which expose and show us that he was a fake prophet.



fyi;

These reports contradict the Qur'an itself. Numerous verses of the Qur'an prove that complete Surahs existed, each dis­tinguished from the other. They were in the hands of the people, even those who were idolaters or the people of the Books. The famous challenge by the Prophet (‘s) to the disbelievers was to produce the like of the Qur'an, the like of ten Surahs or even one Surah. This means that the Surah were there in the public hands.

And in the Qur'an itself, the word "book" has been used in many verses.

And also in the famous saying of the Prophet (‘s):
"I leave among you two valuable things, the book of Allah and my progeny", there is a clear proof that the Qur'an was then written and compiled, because the word `book' is not used for that which is retained in the memory, nor for scattered writings on the parchments, pieces of papers and bones, except metaphorically. It is not right to construe any word metaphoric­ally unless there is an evidence in its context.


The word `book' denotes existence of a collection and not of scattered scribbles, nor of things which are in the memory but not written.












Yes, there is no doubt that Uthman produced a copy of the Qur'an in his days, but this was not to say that he collected the verses and the chapters into a book form. Actually, he effected a consensus on recitation according to a single master copy, ordering Muslims to burn out all other copies which varied from his copy. He actually wrote to all towns and cities, forbidding Muslims from entertaining different recitations. This has been substantiated by many Sunni scholars.



Al‑Harith al Muhtasibi says: "It is commonly held by the Muslims that Uthman was compiler of the Qur'an. This is not so. Actually, Uthman enjoined upon Muslims to unite on one recitation, acting on the advice of certain Muhajirin and Ansar who feared disunity resulting from some confusion among the people of Iraq and Syria in respect of recitations. Before that, there were various copies having recitations based on the "seven readings" upon which the Qur'an was revealed ...."[45]




http://www.al-islam.org/tahrif_quran/

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 7:45 am
by yeezevee
Q writes it without thinking..
These reports contradict the Qur'an itself. Numerous verses of the Qur'an prove that complete Surahs existed, each dis­tinguished from the other. They were in the hands of the people, even those who were idolaters or the people of the Books. The famous challenge by the Prophet (‘s) to the disbelievers was to produce the like of the Qur'an, the like of ten Surahs or even one Surah. This means that the Surah were there in the public hands.
what kind of challenge is that dear Q.. In fact those silly words are used in Quran so often., ...."produce a chapter like it" ..."Bring the book like Quran"...... it itself is repetitive rubbish
002.023: And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

010.038: Or do they say: He has forged it? Say: Then bring a chapter like this and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.

017.088: Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.

047.020: And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!
What is their in Quran that was not written before?? and who is the Judge?

Look at these silly sounds.. They are meaningless nonsense.. even Dog barking has some meaning..
Ta Seen Meem.[Al Quran ; 28:1]

Ta Seen, [Al Quran ; 27:1]

Ta Seen Meem [Al Quran ; 26:1]

Ta Ha. [Al Quran ; 20:1]

Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad. [Al Quran ; 19:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 15:1]

Alif Lam Ra. [Al Quran ; 14:1]

Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra. [Al Quran ; 13:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 12:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 11:1]

Alif Lam Ra.[Al Quran ; 10:1]

Alif Lam Meem Sad.[Al Quran ; 7:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 3:1]

Alif Lam Meem.[Al Quran ; 2:1]
And Those are the signs of Book of wisdom?? that is book of Baboon sounds man., get over the nonsense lol.

here let me past few good words

"When I had little knowledge, I had become blind by pride like an elephant (during rut). Then my mind was proud , thinking that I am an omniscient. As and when I realized bit by bit in the association of wise men, my pride waned like a fever, as I came to know that I was a fool, actually."

Be Content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you. Lao Tzu

"A good traveler has no fixed plan, and is not intent on arriving." Lao Tzu

"If you look to others for fulfillment, you will never be truly fulfilled." Lao Tzu

"If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading." Lao Tzu


Not by harming life

Does one become noble.

One is termed noble

For being gentle

To all living things.
I can make a book of such quotes of ancient wisdom from Pagan, Christian,Jewish, Hindu, Buddhists preachings double the size silly Quran that is full Muhammad's mumbling and stupid verses dear Q..

Take care dear Q..
yeezevee

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:31 am
by pr126

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:12 am
by Q
Spoiler! :
yeezevee wrote:Q writes it without thinking..
These reports contradict the Qur'an itself. Numerous verses of the Qur'an prove that complete Surahs existed, each dis­tinguished from the other. They were in the hands of the people, even those who were idolaters or the people of the Books. The famous challenge by the Prophet (‘s) to the disbelievers was to produce the like of the Qur'an, the like of ten Surahs or even one Surah. This means that the Surah were there in the public hands.
what kind of challenge is that dear Q.. In fact those silly words are used in Quran so often., ...."produce a chapter like it" ..."Bring the book like Quran"...... it itself is repetitive rubbish
002.023: And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

010.038: Or do they say: He has forged it? Say: Then bring a chapter like this and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.

017.088: Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others.

047.020: And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!
What is their in Quran that was not written before?? and who is the Judge?


fyi:



وَإِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّمَّا نَزَّلْنَا عَلَى عَبْدِنَا فَأْتُواْ بِسُورَةٍ مِّن مِّثْلِهِ وَادْعُواْ شُهَدَاءكُم مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صَادِقِينَ {23}
[Shakir 2:23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.
[Yusufali 2:23] And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
[Pickthal 2:23] And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:23]

In this verse the almighty all-wise Allah throws an open challenge to mankind for making an effort to compose even one surah in the style and manner of the Quran, not only to assert the genuineness of the divine words revealed to a man who did not receive any type of education from any mortal, but also to put an end to doubts and speculations, for ever, that it could be the fabrication of any human mind.

This challenge refers to the Quran as a work of literature and wisdom, and not to its effects as some commentators wrongly try to prove. The inimitable literary excellence and the pure and perfect wisdom of the Quran has been and will always be beyond the reach of the literary and intellectual genius of mankind.

Say (O Muhammad); If men and jinn should unite to produce the like of this Quran they could not produce the like of it though they were helpers one of another.

(BANI ISRAIL: 88)

Also refer to Yunus: 38, Hud: 13.

Even if any one makes an effort, there will be no witness available to testify to his claim. No attempt has been made so far, and no one shall succeed.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Since the beginning of Islam till today, the enemies of Islam have been trying to belittle Islam but they never dared to answer the challenge, in spite of repeated attempts made by the most celebrated scholars and men of letters, jointly and severally.

In what respect is the Quran an unchallengable miracle? How is it the proof of its own truthfulness? Several views have been put forward by both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars.

(1) Eloquence and rhetorical excellence.

(2) Prophecies.

(3) Precepts and laws.

(4) Effect of its forceful and fascinating tone on the human mind and heart.

No attempt has been made to look into the book itself to know why and in what sense it is a miracle. The book is the book of guidance. The duty of the messenger of Allah was to convey and preach guidance to mankind. The speaker or author arranges his words and sentences to make his ideas meaningful to the audience or the readers. In search of the best way to communicate the ideas, the science of grammar and the art of rhetoric had been developed. The use of language and style has to be adopted in relation to the class of people who are addressed. A message or guidance of universal nature, dealing with all aspects of human life in its manifold dimensions (individual and social, economic and political, physical and spiritual) not for any particular person or class but for every human being, community and nation, educated and uneducated, till eternity, must be the work of a person who knows, inside out, human nature in general as well as the capacity to understand and the tendencies of different individuals and communities of different classes and races. In addition, the relation of each individual to the other, the relation of mankind as a whole to other beings and surrounding nature, the beginning and the end of human life, the first and the final cause of creation of which man is a part, have to be taken into consideration. The style and substance of such a message should not only appeal to the "welfare-oriented" interests of the people but also should be able to refine human feelings and emotions. Such a power of expression is beyond the limit of human ability. Therefore it is true to say that the Quran is a miracle in view of its style and substance.

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:38 am
by skynightblaze
Q wrote:These reports contradict the Qur'an itself. Numerous verses of the Qur'an prove that complete Surahs existed, each dis­tinguished from the other. They were in the hands of the people, even those who were idolaters or the people of the Books. The famous challenge by the Prophet (‘s) to the disbelievers was to produce the like of the Qur'an, the like of ten Surahs or even one Surah. This means that the Surah were there in the public hands.

And in the Qur'an itself, the word "book" has been used in many verses.


First of all a non muslim doesnt believe in the quran so giving evidence as quran to prove authenticity of hadiths doesnt convince a non muslim however for the sake of debate we have to accept quran as authority otherwise the debate becomes insensible because none of us can prove the authority of the scriptures that we use and hence no conclusion can be drawn.Remember its a compromise that non muslims do when they accept quran as authority and not because its true.IF they dont accept, then we can reach no conclusion but this reflects poorly on islam as a religion because it fails to provide authenticity of its own scriptures.

Having said that lets accept quran as authority.Now you say hadiths are unauthentic because they contradict each other so does quran so by using same logic please discard quran too. Here is a sample contradiction for you.

16.70.
It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful.

VS

6.61.
He is the irresistible, (watching) from above over His worshippers, and He sets guardians over you. At length, when death approaches one of you, Our angels take his soul, and they never fail in their duty.

8.50.
If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-


Who is it ? Angels or Allah?


Also one more thing . In the intermediate chapters when quran wasnt complete it still addressed itself as the book So does that mean quran was a book that was compiled ? Obviously it cant be because some of the chapters hadnt been revealed then . In short drawing conclusion that quran was a book just because it calls itself the book doesnt prove that it was completed or compiled.It only proves that the author wanted to make a book but its not an indicator of completion of compilation.


Q wrote:And also in the famous saying of the Prophet (‘s):
"I leave among you two valuable things, the book of Allah and my progeny", there is a clear proof that the Qur'an was then written and compiled, because the word `book' is not used for that which is retained in the memory, nor for scattered writings on the parchments, pieces of papers and bones, except metaphorically. It is not right to construe any word metaphoric­ally unless there is an evidence in its context.


If quran could address itself as a book even when it wasnt completed i.e in the intermediate chapters why should we assume that this hadith is talking about completion of compilation of the book? Also your hypocrite author picks whatever suits his position from the hadiths. See the following hadith.. In one hadith all his claims are debunked.Click the spoiler..


Spoiler! :
Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--

"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)


The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.


See this hadith tells us the following

1) quran was collected from the memory of some muslims.
2)Quran was scattered and it was written on parchments,leaves,stones
3)Muhhamad never collected the quran.
4)A person called Khuzaima had 2 verses which werent found with anyone else.

Also there is a hadith that indicates verses related to stoning are missing in the quran(I will quote it if you want)
The above hadith and the hadith telling us about missing of verses related to stoning proves that quran is a corrupt book.

Q wrote:The word `book' denotes existence of a collection and not of scattered scribbles, nor of things which are in the memory but not written.


Read above..

Q wrote:Yes, there is no doubt that Uthman produced a copy of the Qur'an in his days, but this was not to say that he collected the verses and the chapters into a book form. Actually, he effected a consensus on recitation according to a single master copy, ordering Muslims to burn out all other copies which varied from his copy. He actually wrote to all towns and cities, forbidding Muslims from entertaining different recitations. This has been substantiated by many Sunni scholars.


As per one of the hadiths muhhamad didnt mind 7 seven different recitations of the quran. Uthman brought it down to only 1 so this is corruption of quran though not of the actual content because quran is supposed to be word by word dictation of Allah so any change in it is blasphemy and hence quran we have is corrupted today. If you talk about the message of quran being corrupted I have proved above using a hadith.


Q wrote:Al‑Harith al Muhtasibi says: "It is commonly held by the Muslims that Uthman was compiler of the Qur'an. This is not so. Actually, Uthman enjoined upon Muslims to unite on one recitation, acting on the advice of certain Muhajirin and Ansar who feared disunity resulting from some confusion among the people of Iraq and Syria in respect of recitations. Before that, there were various copies having recitations based on the "seven readings" upon which the Qur'an was revealed ...."[45]

http://www.al-islam.org/tahrif_quran/


Not only Uthman but Abu Bakhr also compiled the quran so quran is definitely corrupted.

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:49 am
by Q
Spoiler! :
skynightblaze wrote:
Q wrote:Also your hypocrite author picks whatever suits his position from the hadiths. See the following hadith.. In one hadith all his claims are debunked.Click the spoiler..


[spoiler]Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). " By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):--

"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)


The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter.


See this hadith tells us the following

1) quran was collected from the memory of some muslims.
2)Quran was scattered and it was written on parchments,leaves,stones
3)Muhhamad never collected the quran.
4)A person called Khuzaima had 2 verses which werent found with anyone else.

Also there is a hadith that indicates verses related to stoning are missing in the quran(I will quote it if you want)
The above hadith and the hadith telling us about missing of verses related to stoning proves that quran is a corrupt book.

Q wrote:The word `book' denotes existence of a collection and not of scattered scribbles, nor of things which are in the memory but not written.


Read above..

Q wrote:Yes, there is no doubt that Uthman produced a copy of the Qur'an in his days, but this was not to say that he collected the verses and the chapters into a book form. Actually, he effected a consensus on recitation according to a single master copy, ordering Muslims to burn out all other copies which varied from his copy. He actually wrote to all towns and cities, forbidding Muslims from entertaining different recitations. This has been substantiated by many Sunni scholars.


As per one of the hadiths muhhamad didnt mind 7 seven different recitations of the quran. Uthman brought it down to only 1 so this is corruption of quran though not of the actual content because quran is supposed to be word by word dictation of Allah so any change in it is blasphemy and hence quran we have is corrupted today. If you talk about the message of quran being corrupted I have proved above using a hadith.


Q wrote:Al‑Harith al Muhtasibi says: "It is commonly held by the Muslims that Uthman was compiler of the Qur'an. This is not so. Actually, Uthman enjoined upon Muslims to unite on one recitation, acting on the advice of certain Muhajirin and Ansar who feared disunity resulting from some confusion among the people of Iraq and Syria in respect of recitations. Before that, there were various copies having recitations based on the "seven readings" upon which the Qur'an was revealed ...."[45]

http://www.al-islam.org/tahrif_quran/


Not only Uthman but Abu Bakhr also compiled the quran so quran is definitely corrupted.
[/spoiler]


The Collection and Preservation of the Qur'an

Title

Introduction

Chapter 1
The Holy Qur’an, Pure, Pristine and Unprofaned

Chapter 2
The Meaning of Tahrif

Chapter 3
Muslim view on Tahrif

Chapter 4
Abrogation of Recitation a Fact or a Myth


-Tradition n. 1
-Tradition n. 2
-Tradition n. 3
-Tradition n. 4
-Tradition n. 5
-Tradition n. 6
-Tradition n. 7
-Tradition n. 8
-Tradition n. 9
-Tradition n. 10
-Tradition n. 11
-Tradition n. 12

Chapter 5
Tahrif and the Book Itself

Chapter 6
Tahrif and Sunnah

Chapter 7
Permission to Recite the Surah in the Prayers

Chapter 8
The Claim that Tahrif was caused by the Caliphs

Chapter 9
Some Doubts by those who believe in Tahrif

-First Doubt
-Second Doubt
-Third Doubt

Chapter 10
The Traditions about Tahrif

-Tradition n. 1
-Tradition n. 2
-Tradition n. 3
-Tradition n. 4
-Tradition n. 5
-Tradition n. 6
-Tradition n. 7
-Tradition n. 8

Chapter 11
True Meaning of the Traditions

-Fourth Doubt

Chapter 12
A Reflection on the Collection of the Holy Qur’an

Chapter 13
The Traditions about the Compilation of the Qur’an

-Report n. 1
-Report n. 2
-Report n. 3
-Report n. 4
-Report n. 5
-Report n. 6
-Report n. 7
-Report n. 8
-Report n. 9
-Report n. 10
-Report n. 11
-Report n. 12
-Report n. 13
-Report n. 14
-Report n. 15
-Report n. 16
-Report n. 17
-Report n. 18
-Report n. 19
-Report n. 20
-Report n. 21
-Report n. 22

Chapter 14
The Contradictions

Chapter 15
Their Conflict with Other Traditions Related to the Compilation of the Qur’an

Chapter 16
Their Conflict with the Qur’an itself

Chapter 17
Their Conflict with Reason

(a) The Eloquence and Rhetoric of the Qur'an
(b) The Prophet's inclination to preserve the Qur'an
(c) Memorization
(d) Rewards

Chapter 18
Their Conflict with Consensus

Chapter 19
Those Traditions and Interpolations

Chapter 20
Conclusion


http://www.al-islam.org/tahrif_quran/

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:33 am
by yeezevee
Q pastes some gibberish from http://www.al-islam.org/tahrif_quran/
....The Collection and Preservation of the Qur'an ...

In what respect is the Quran an unchallengable miracle? How is it the proof of its own truthfulness? Several views have been put forward by both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars.

(1) Eloquence and rhetorical excellence.

(2) Prophecies.

(3) Precepts and laws.

(4) Effect of its forceful and fascinating tone on the human mind and heart.
Irrational belief from you dear Q., How on this earth those four statement make Quran as word of Allah/God and Muhammad as Last messenger is mind boggling. Your perception and your basics of how to think is terrible lacking.


(1) Eloquence and rhetorical excellence: Parrot singing, dog barking is equally eloquent., that doesn't make it has some message from Allah.

(2) Prophecies: What Prophecies?? There is absolutely NO PROPHECY IN QURAN. Forget Prophecies., it is rubbish and It contains criminal nature /criminal intent of Muhammad.

(3) Precepts and laws.: What laws and what Percepts?? Any fool who has political power makes laws., that doesn't mean they are words of Allah/God...

(4) Effect of its forceful and fascinating tone on the human mind and heart: What forceful? what fascinating? what heart and what mind?? That are word drivel..juggling words by foolish fellows at that link. It is all Pooya/Ali POOP dear Q


Boy you have never ending resources to copy/paste at ffi

with best wishes
yeezevee

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 3:19 am
by Q
Spoiler! :
yeezevee wrote:(1) Eloquence and rhetorical excellence: Parrot singing, dog barking is equally eloquent., that doesn't make it has some message from Allah.

(4) Effect of its forceful and fascinating tone on the human mind and heart: What forceful? what fascinating? what heart and what mind?? That are word drivel..juggling words by foolish fellows at that link. It is all Pooya/Ali POOP dear Q



FYI/E


The Qur'an: Muhammad's strongest argument

It has often been argued that the Qur'an is not only the first book, and the highest linguistic achievement, of the Arabic language, but that it is also Muhammad's strongest argument against those who doubted his Message. The question that needs to be addressed here concerns the reason why a holy book, a composition of language, should be hailed as Islam's (and Muhammad's) strongest argument. [4] The point has sometimes been made that other prophets had more tangible miracles. In the case of Muhammad, however, the miracle was not comparable to Moses' staff or Christ's healing powers, but was simply the expression in language of the Qur'an.

To understand why Muhammad's strongest argument or miracle was a book, the Holy Qur'an, it is necessary to understand the role language and linguistic composition played in the lives of the pre-Islamic Arabs. It is also important to understand the nature of the Arabic language itself during the pre-Islamic period. This understanding will help to show why the revelation of the Qur'an through Muhammad found attentive ears among his contemporaries, who not only were articulate users of the language but held those skilled in the arts of linguistic composition in high esteem. [5]

The role played by language in pre-Islamic Arabia

Before the rise of Islam, Arabic was mainly a spoken language with an oral literature of elaborate poetry and, to a lesser extent, prose. [6] Writing had not yet fully developed and memorization was the most common means of preserving the literature. [7] Both poetry and prose in the pre-Islamic era dealt with a rather limited range of topics which included in the case of poetry praise, eulogy (panegyric), defamation, and love, and in the case of prose superstition, legends, parables, and wisdom tales. [8]

Pre-Islamic Arabs took great pride in their language and in articulate and accurate speech, the latter being one of the main requisites for social prominence. On this particular point, Professor Hitti writes:No people in the world manifest such enthusiastic admiration for literary expression and are moved by the word, spoken or written, as the Arabs. Hardly any language seems capable of exercising over the minds of its users such an irresistible influence as Arabic. [9]

What made this phenomenon even more remarkable is the near absence of other forms of artistic expression such as music, painting, and drama. The sole elaborate form of artistic expression available to the pre-Islamic Arabs was the art of the spoken word. [10] Eloquence and the ability to compose articulate prose or poetry were foremost among the traits of a worthy bedouin. [11] ..........









.......Such was the role that the spoken word played in the life of pre-Islamic Arabs. With the emphasis placed on eloquent and articulate speech, the prominent position occupied by those who had the talent for linguistic composition, and the pride the early Arabs took in their language, it is little wonder that the Qur'an was revealed in the most eloquent, articulate, and elaborate style the Arabic language has known. The Qur'an has without doubt provided a level of linguistic excellence unparalleled in the history of the Arabic language. Theologians explain this phenomenon as God's wisdom in addressing the articulate Arabs through the medium in which they were most adept and with which they felt most comfortable. The effectiveness of the Qur'an was thus ensured by the fact that it represented a level of eloquence unattainable even by their most eloquent speakers. The Qur'an remains a book of inimitable quality, not only from a linguistic, but also from and intellectual, point of view. When Muhammad was challenged by his fellow countrymen to present a miracle, in keeping with the tradition of other prophets, he presented the Qur'an to them. The inimitability of the Qur'an is repeatedly emphasized in the Holy Book itself. Thus the Qur'an challenges the disbelievers:

And if you are in doubt as to what we have revealed, then produce a sura like unto it. (2: 23) [18]

A yet stronger challenge occurs in another chapter:

Or do they say: 'He forged it'? Say: 'Bring then a sura like unto it and call [to your aid] anyone you can. ' (10: 38)

The role of the poet in pre-Islamic Arabia

Except for a few proverbs, legends, and some magical and medicinal formulee, the bulk of the literary heritage from the pre-Islamic era was in the form of poetry. [19] Prose, which lacks the elaborate rhythm and formal structure of poetry, did not lend itself easily to memorization..........


http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/Arabic.htm

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 6:01 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Who cares about poetry? It can't be from God because it makes too many errors. It's that simple.

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:48 am
by Q
Spoiler! :
[quote= bin Lyin"]Who cares about poetry? It can't be from God because it makes too many errors. It's that simple.[/quote]




The Qur'anic Viewpoint,Regarding the Sources of Error

Among various sources of error mentioned by the Qur'an, one is that of taking conjecture and hypothesis for certainty and conviction. If a person were to adhere to the principle of putting conviction only in certainties and of not confusing between conjectures and certainties, he would not fall into error. The Qur'an lays great emphasis on this problem, and has clearly stated in one place that one of the biggest errors of the human mind is pursuit of conjectures and hypotheses. In another verse, which is addressed to the Prophet (S), the Qur'an says:

If thou obeyest the most part of those on earth, they will lead thee astray from the path of God: they follow only surmise, merely conjecturing. (6:116)

In another verse, the Qur'an says:
And pursue not that thou has no knowledge of ... (17:36)

This is the word of caution to mankind extended by the Qur'an, for the first time in the history of human ideas, warning mankind against this kind of error.
The second source of error in the reasoning process, which is particularly relevant in social issues, is imitation. Most people are such that they accept whatever beliefs that are current in their society. They adopt certain beliefs merely for the reason that they were followed by their preceding generation. The Qur'an bids people to carefully scrutinize all ideas and judge them by the criteria of reason --neither to follow blindly the conventional beliefs and traditions of their ancestors, nor to reject them totally without any rational justification. It reminds us that there are many false doctrines that were introduced in the past, but were accepted by the people, and there are also certain truths that were presented in the distant past, but people resisted them on account of their ignorance. In accepting any ideas or principles, men are advised to make use of their intellects and rational faculties, and not to indulge in blind imitation. Very often, the Qur'an puts imitation of ancestors in direct opposition to reason and intellect:

And when it is said to them: 'Follow what God has sent down', they say, 'No; but we will follow such things as we found our fathers doing.' What? Even if their fathers had no understanding of anything, and if they were not guided ? (2:170)

The Qur'an constantly reiterates the view that the idea of antiquity of an idea is neither the evidence of its falsity, nor is it a testimony of its truthfulness. Antiquity affects material objects; but the eternal truths of existence never become old and outmoded. Truths like:

God changes not what is in a people, until they change what is in themselves ... (13:11)

are true for ever and ever. The Qur'an asks us to face issues with the weapon of reason and intellect. One should neither forsake a belief for fear of becoming the target of others' ridicule and banter, nor should he accept a belief just because it is upheld by some important and well- known persons. We should ourselves study and investigate the roots of all matters and draw our own conclusions.

A Third effective source of error pointed out by the Qur'an is

Selfish motives tarnish virtue and merit, A cascade of curtains gallops from the heart towards vision.

Unless one maintains objectivity and neutrality in every matter, he is unlikely to think correctly. Reason can function properly only in an atmosphere that is free of selfish desires and motives. A well-known anecdote of al-Allamah al-Hilli, can illustrate this point.
A problem of fiqh was put before al-Allamah al-Hilli: If an animal falls inside a well, and the carcass cannot be removed; what should be done with the well? Incidentally, during the same days, an animal happened to fall into the well in his own house, and it became inevitable for him to deduce an injunction to solve his own problem, too There were two possible ways to solve the issue: Firstly, the well should be totally closed, not to be used again; secondly, a fixed quantity of water should be emptied from the well and the rest of well's water would be clean and usable. The 'Allamah realized that he could not give a completely impartial verdict about the problem without interference from his own personal interest. Accordingly, he ordered his own well be closed. Then, with an easy mind, free of the pressure of selfish motives. he turned to deducing the details of verdict in the second case.

The Qur'an contains a large number of warnings regarding the evil of submission to personal desires. The following is just one instance of it:

They follow nothing except conjecture, and what the self desires ... (53:25)..



http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/uniqu ... htm#CONDIT

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:32 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Q wrote:
The Qur'anic Viewpoint,Regarding the Sources of Error

Among various sources of error mentioned by the Qur'an, one is that of taking conjecture and hypothesis for certainty and conviction. If a person were to adhere to the principle of putting conviction only in certainties and of not confusing between conjectures and certainties, he would not fall into error. The Qur'an lays great emphasis on this problem, and has clearly stated in one place that one of the biggest errors of the human mind is pursuit of conjectures and hypotheses. In another verse, which is addressed to the Prophet (S), the Qur'an says:

If thou obeyest the most part of those on earth, they will lead thee astray from the path of God: they follow only surmise, merely conjecturing. (6:116)


Which means that now, it is set up to where one can't even take a fair, objective and analytical look at the Quran. If one sees an error, rather than getting a workable explanation to that error, one is told that they are merely conjecturing. Well, perhaps one is conjecturing about everything in the Quran. What parts are we conjecturing about and what parts are we not conjecturing about? Ahhh, but see, one is only conjecturing if they see a problem. Ahhh, that's it. So the Quran invents a handy excuse for itself in case it ever gets caught being in error. So if you agree with the Quran, you are not conjecturing, but if you see an error, rather than dispelling the error, the explanation is simply that you are conjecturing. When are you people going to put down the Quran for a moment and pick up a good philosophy book? You don't even know how to assess something. This is a skill taken for granted by non Muslims.

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 2:42 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Q wrote:The Qur'an constantly reiterates the view that the idea of antiquity of an idea is neither the evidence of its falsity, nor is it a testimony of its truthfulness. Antiquity affects material objects; but the eternal truths of existence never become old and outmoded. Truths like:

God changes not what is in a people, until they change what is in themselves ... (13:11)

are true for ever and ever.


The Jews? Moses? did not God change them even as they kept going back to idol worship?

Re: Does the Koran say that context is required to understand...

PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 3:31 pm
by Centaur
The Qur'an constantly reiterates the view that the idea of antiquity of an idea is neither the evidence of its falsity,

very true Mohammed was antique,so the antiquity of antiquity does not affect him, as would with temporals like us.Mo was right having sex with the antiquity of antiquity aka aysha , because that paedophilia stays forever and ever as a sublime moral, because ofcourse its antiquity
http://www.alsilam.org