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Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:21 pm
by The Cat
Is ar-Rahman merely an epithet for Allah, or are we dealing with two different gods blended together for monotheist convenience?

The Qur'an opens with the Bismillah: Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi. Translated:
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHALL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

The whole sura 55 (Chr.97th) is named after ar-Rahman which then becomes a different account of the creation than that of Allah!
Otherwise, his name is concentrated in some 'Meccan' suras: 50(17th); 44(19th); 45(20th); 73(21th);41(36th); 42(42th); 77(67th).

From what we know, ar-Rahman was the divinity of Musaylima, the contemporary powerful prophet of the Banu Hanifa tribe.
Rahman is not Arabic but Syriac, and the original is Rahmono, meaning ‘the merciful’. D. B. MacDonald in the Encyclopaedia of
Islam wrote: “It is almost certain that the prophet has borrowed the sentence ‘Bism-el Rahman’ from Southern Arabia”...

Kuran 43.45 (63th): “Ask our prophets that we have sent before you: Have we created gods to worship apart from Rahman?

This ayat is most troubling: Can Allah have the power to create an omnipotent divinity that is equal with him? Or is it an admission
that Allah created Himself? Then why would a supreme being creates another supreme being just as worthy as Him to worship? Isn't
it rather polytheism is disguise? If Allah created another divinity equaling Himself, yet separated, we're not into a one god faith!

If through ar-Rahman Allah created Himself, it logically means that He was a created creator from the first and this comes down
to a circular argument imploding the uncreated notion of Allah! Now, if Muslims maintain that Allah did not create Himself but an
emanation of Him out of the Universe set in motion then we are facing an uncreated entity, contrary to 43.45!

How can Muslims say that they worship 'one' god when the Koran states otherwise?

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:36 am
by xtr00
Well looks like you don't know any thing about 99 names of Allah. One of His name is Ar-Rahmaan.


Which means the following according to http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; website:
The Compassionate, The Beneficient, The One who has plenty of mercy for the believers and the blasphemers in this world and especially for the believers in the hereafter.

In simple words, All Beautiful Names Belong to Allah, and you can call Him but whichever name you want.

Quran
[17.110] Say: 'Call upon Allah, or call upon the Merciful; whichever (Name) you call upon, to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. ....

Hope this will remove the confusion.

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:51 am
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:Is ar-Rahman merely an epithet for Allah, or are we dealing with two different gods blended together for monotheist convenience?

The Qur'an opens with the Bismillah: Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi. Translated:
YUSUFALI: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
PICKTHALL: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
SHAKIR: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

The whole sura 55 (Chr.97th) is named after ar-Rahman which then becomes a different account of the creation than that of Allah!
Otherwise, his name is concentrated in some 'Meccan' suras: 50(17th); 44(19th); 45(20th); 73(21th);41(36th); 42(42th); 77(67th).

From what we know, ar-Rahman was the divinity of Musaylima, the contemporary powerful prophet of the Banu Hanifa tribe.
Rahman is not Arabic but Syriac, and the original is Rahmono, meaning ‘the merciful’. D. B. MacDonald in the Encyclopaedia of
Islam wrote: “It is almost certain that the prophet has borrowed the sentence ‘Bism-el Rahman’ from Southern Arabia”...

Kuran 43.45 (63th): “Ask our prophets that we have sent before you: Have we created gods to worship apart from Rahman?

This ayat is most troubling: Can Allah have the power to create an omnipotent divinity that is equal with him? Or is it an admission
that Allah created Himself? Then why would a supreme being creates another supreme being just as worthy as Him to worship? Isn't
it rather polytheism is disguise? If Allah created another divinity equaling Himself, yet separated, we're not into a one god faith!

If through ar-Rahman Allah created Himself, it logically means that He was a created creator from the first and this comes down
to a circular argument imploding the uncreated notion of Allah! Now, if Muslims maintain that Allah did not create Himself but an
emanation of Him out of the Universe set in motion then we are facing an uncreated entity, contrary to 43.45!

How can Muslims say that they worship 'one' god when the Koran states otherwise?

You stupid manipulator and piece of ignorant trash, 43:45 does not have the word CREATE, you conman:

وَاسْأَلْ مَنْ أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رُسُلِنَا أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ (45)
And ask those whom We sent before you of Our messengers: Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped?
[Al Quran ; 43:45]

-> See conman, أَجَعَلْنَا مِنْ دُونِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ آلِهَةً يُعْبَدُونَ , i.e. Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped?


i.e. Allah did not ASSIGN anything to be worshipped other than Himself

Dismiss yourself, conman. You have been slammed

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:12 pm
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:You stupid manipulator and piece of ignorant trash, 43:45 does not have the word CREATE, you conman:

i.e. Allah did not ASSIGN anything to be worshipped other than Himself

Dismiss yourself, conman. You have been slammed
Why do you always react like an ill-educated person? When referring to God, we can say both: The Maker or Creator.
We'll say that God made (created) man out of clay, or that we'll go back to our Maker. They are simply synonymous.
Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped?

Since you're so childish, I'll rephrase my questioning using 'Maker' instead of 'Creator', pay attention please:
This ayat is most troubling: Can Allah have the power to make an omnipotent divinity that is equal with Him? Or is it an admission
that Allah made Himself too? Then why would a supreme being makes another supreme being just as worthy as Him to worship? Isn't
it rather polytheism is disguise? If Allah made another divinity equaling Himself, yet separated, we're not into a one god faith!

If through ar-Rahman Allah made Himself too, it logically means that He was a made Maker from the first and this comes down
to a circular argument imploding the unmade notion of Allah! Now, if Muslims maintain that Allah did not made Himself but an
emanation of Him set in motion out of the Universe then we are facing an unmade entity, contrary to 43.45!

So, all you've got to do, now, is to answer the question instead of fooling around:
How can Muslims say that they worship 'one' god when the Koran states otherwise?

Because ar-Rahman is truly another divinity, worshiped by Musaylima and the Sabaeans, among others! Did you know that?

Then, I'll have another question for you: is 'The Beneficent' or 'Compassionate' a good translation for ar-Rahman?
Isn't it, as formulated, just a redundant epithet for ar-Raheem 'The Merciful' thus 'Benevolent' & 'Compassionate'?

I suggest you get informed about comparative religions before you display more silliness...
I guess you won't.... ;)

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:50 pm
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:You stupid manipulator and piece of ignorant trash, 43:45 does not have the word CREATE, you conman:

i.e. Allah did not ASSIGN anything to be worshipped other than Himself

Dismiss yourself, conman. You have been slammed
Why do you always react like an ill-educated person? When referring to God, we can say both: The Maker or Creator.
We'll say that God made (created) man out of clay, or that we'll go back to our Maker. They are simply synonymous.
Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped?

Since you're so childish, I'll rephrase my questioning using 'Maker' instead of 'Creator', pay attention please:
This ayat is most troubling: Can Allah have the power to make an omnipotent divinity that is equal with Him? Or is it an admission
that Allah made Himself too? Then why would a supreme being makes another supreme being just as worthy as Him to worship? Isn't
it rather polytheism is disguise? If Allah made another divinity equaling Himself, yet separated, we're not into a one god faith!

If through ar-Rahman Allah made Himself too, it logically means that He was a made Maker from the first and this comes down
to a circular argument imploding the unmade notion of Allah! Now, if Muslims maintain that Allah did not made Himself but an
emanation of Him set in motion out of the Universe then we are facing an unmade entity, contrary to 43.45!

So, all you've got to do, now, is to answer the question instead of fooling around:
How can Muslims say that they worship 'one' god when the Koran states otherwise?

Because ar-Rahman is truly another divinity, worshiped by Musaylima and the Sabaeans, among others! Did you know that?

Then, I'll have another question for you: is 'The Beneficent' or 'Compassionate' a good translation for ar-Rahman?
Isn't it, as formulated, just a redundant epithet for ar-Raheem 'The Merciful' thus 'Benevolent' & 'Compassionate'?

I suggest you get informed about comparative religions before you display more silliness...
I guess you won't.... ;)
Again you turd of a manipulator, the verse you brought in does not have the word created

Now for your questions,

Yes the Compassionate is the best translation for Rahman

Also confused, if Rahman is not Arabic then Rahim must not e Arabic either, this is how coinfusede and manipulated you are

And what is that which you called compartative religions?

You mean all other corrupt religions

Keep it dumb, dumb

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:24 pm
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:Again you turd of a manipulator, the verse you brought in does not have the word created
Now for your questions.......
I've conceded that 'Maker' could be used as well as 'Creator' when referring to God.
Yet you haven't answered my rephrasing, just eluded them once again. Try again!
Yes the Compassionate is the best translation for Rahman
Also confused, if Rahman is not Arabic then Rahim must not e Arabic either, this is how coinfusede and manipulated you are
I'll fill it as soon as I can stop laughing... :roflmao: it may take a while!
And what is that which you called compartative religions?
You mean all other corrupt religions

Keep it dumb, dumb
Idem. :roflmao:

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:38 pm
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Again you turd of a manipulator, the verse you brought in does not have the word created
Now for your questions.......
I've conceded that 'Maker' could be used as well as 'Creator' when referring to God.
Yet you haven't answered my rephrasing, just eluded them once again. Try again!
Yes the Compassionate is the best translation for Rahman
Also confused, if Rahman is not Arabic then Rahim must not e Arabic either, this is how coinfusede and manipulated you are
I'll fill it as soon as I can stop laughing... :roflmao: it may take a while!
And what is that which you called compartative religions?
You mean all other corrupt religions

Keep it dumb, dumb
Idem. :roflmao:

So, let me see, your refute is based on a typo?

Hahahahah, keep it itchy, pussy cat

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:58 pm
by The Cat
xtr00 wrote:Well looks like you don't know any thing about 99 names of Allah. One of His name is Ar-Rahmaan.

In simple words, All Beautiful Names Belong to Allah, and you can call Him but whichever name you want.

Quran
[17.110] Say: 'Call upon Allah, or call upon the Merciful; whichever (Name) you call upon, to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. ....

Hope this will remove the confusion.
Not really, the confusion is rather on the Islamic side, because both Rahman and Rahim are well known in many other religions.
In Hinduism for example they are known as Rama, the guardian of the religious spirit. In old Egypt (Kemet) they are Ra-Amen!
In Judeo-Christianity we find Rahmana, from Aramaic Rahmano, out of the Semitic root RHM. In the Bible it is used in Dt.4.31;
Ex.4.22-23; Isaiah 64.8; Hosea 1.10; Jn.1.12-13. Its meaning is related to a benevolent Father looking upon His community.

Now Rahim is closer to this RHM root of Gracious Benevolence, like the Latin Dei Misericordis, than Rahman (RHMN), a divinity
found from the 4thc.BC among the Sabaeans then switching to monotheism. He was called Rahmanan and, for your information,
He has been the monotheist divinity of 'Rahman' Musaylima, a challenger to Muhammad's prophethood. He asked for a (refused)
dual recognition, yet we find its Name mixed with Allah in the Koran! Dig it... It is reported that Muhammad said: ''Everything
has an adornment and the adornment of the Koran is surah: ar-Rahman
'' (Q.55, -chr.97th). O the monumental irony!

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Sabaeans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The oldest dated inscription, of the year 385 (A.D. 270), mentions 'Athtar, Shams and other heathen deities, while the inscriptions of 582 (A.D. 467) and 573 (A.D. 458), so far as they can be read, contain no name of a heathen god, but do speak of a god Rahmanan - that is, the Hebrew Rahman, " the compassionate " (Arabic, al-Rahman), agreeably with the fact that Jewish and Christian influences were powerful in Arabia in the 4th century.
43.45 (AB version): And ask those whom We sent before you of Our messengers:
Did We make, other than the Compassionate, (other) gods to be worshipped?


As underlined in my opening questions, the matter is a hot-as-hell potato for monotheism in Islam. Muslims can't worship ar-Rahman all
along with Allah, but so it happens that they do shirk whenever they recite the Fatihah and praying to 1.Allahi 2.alrrahmani 3.alrraheemi.

Who said there was no trinity in Islam!

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:39 pm
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:And what is that which you called compartative religions?
You mean all other corrupt religions
Keep it dumb, dumb
AhmedBahgat wrote:So, let me see, your refute is based on a typo?
Only when you tax me of being confused and dumb while making typos all over. The joke was on you, this once again!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_religion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
''Comparative religion is a field of religious study that analyzes the similarities and differences of themes, myths, rituals and concepts
among the world's religions. Religion can be defined as the human notions regarding the sacred, numinous, spiritual and divine....
''

Now, let's get serious... something obviously out of your realm.
AhmedBahgat wrote:Allah did not ASSIGN anything to be worshipped other than Himself
Not according to 43.45 in which He made (created) a partner unto Himself to be worship as well! Since through ar-Rahman Allah
made Himself an equal, it logically means that He equally was a made Maker too, imploding the unmade notion of Allah! Now,
if Muslims maintain that Allah did not made Himself but an emanation set in motion out of the Universe then we are facing an
unmade entity, contrary to 43.45! If Allah made another divinity equaling Himself, yet separated, we're not into a one god faith!
AhmedBahgat wrote:Yes the Compassionate is the best translation for Rahman
See how this translation as 'The Beneficent' or 'Compassionate' doesn't make any sense:

19.45: O my father! Lo! I fear lest a punishment from the Beneficent overtake thee so that thou become a comrade of the devil.

19.69: Then We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the Beneficent.

Try again... :roflmao:

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:34 am
by Q
FYI:
بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِِ {1}
[Shakir 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Yusufali 1:1] In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[Pickthal 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 1:1]

RAHMANIR RAHIM

The words rahman and rahim point out to the essence of one divine attribute-rahmah (mercy or grace), yet, in application, each demonstrates a distinct aspect of the divine mercy. He is rahman to all His creation, one and all, be they obedient or disobedient; and He is rahim to the faithful who do good and receive His mercy as a reward, or as an appreciation of the goodness of their souls.


Rahmah (grace), which is the root of both the words rahman and rahim, is the most comprehensive attribute of Allah. It is the source which initiates and stimulates His activities. Creation, sustenance of the creatures, guidance and legislation are the outcome of His universal grace. Mercy or grace stands for active willingness to give with no strings attached, without expectation of return, just for the well-being and good of His dear created beings.


No being is out of His grace. Rahman signifies the (all) penetrating and (all) enveloping universal grace of Allah. But every one receives His mercy according to his ability of receiving and containing, in relation to its usefulness for each individual, neither less nor more than that which is appropriate and equitable. To give more than what one deserves would mean to waste the grace. Therefore the worthiness on the part of the creature itself restricts or limits the measure of grace to be bestowed. The manner of giving is just. His justice is as universal as His grace. In short, as he gives to each and all unreservedly and with no expectation of return, His gift is grace; and as He gives to each according to its merits His gift is justice. This grace subject to merit is implied in the attribute rahim.


Grace and justice are not two separate attributes, in fact, one cannot be conceived without the other. They, together, are responsible for every activity in the realm of creation and the laws controlling the operation of creation. Every being, in the scheme of existence, under all circumstances, represents His grace and justice, whereas many theological and secular theories, based upon conjecture and insufficient knowledge, suppose that grace and justice are two contradictory dispositions of Allah.


Creation of life, brought about by His mercy, makes evident that He is an everliving uncaused supreme being, hayy bidh-dhat, and on account of the mercy and its demonstration it is inevitable that He, in His will and decision, is on His own, absolute and final.


He is the creator of the creation and of the nature of creation, therefore, He is essentially all-aware and all-knowing.


He is the beneficent and merciful. He loves each and every living being, so the beloved must stay attached with Him. He is near, gives answer to the supplicants when they cry unto Him.


As it is His mercy which sustains the whole universe, He alone is the true bountiful.


Belief in His mercy and beneficence, derived from observation and contemplation in its operation, creates love, brotherhood, justice, peace and harmony in the social, economic and political life of the human beings; and as an individual, every one of them makes a choice of sincerity, integrity and piety as a way of life.


The mission of Islam is to reform mankind not only by giving fair warning to the wrongdoers who adopt the life of sin and crime but also by creating love and attachment with the merciful Lord. The true message of Allah had always been available to mankind, but in view of the interests of the ruling classes; greed, and inadequate knowledge, many a fictitious god had been fabricated. All these imaginary deities were ruthless, arrogant and cruel. In many instances people worshipped those revengeful ferocious idols in hope of avoiding their venomous anger. The manipulation of fear and terror gave birth to superstitions, false beliefs and irrational systems, which brought mankind into bondage, reduced to slavery, century after century, till, at last, the merciful Lord struck a death blow to all irrational false beliefs and sent down Muhammad, not only as a nadhir, a warner, but also as a bashir, the bearer of glad tidings. The Holy Prophet was introduced to mankind as a "mercy unto the worlds".


"We sent you not (O Muhammad) but (as) a mercy unto the worlds" (ANBIYA: 107)


The Holy Prophet proclaimed that "there is no god save Allah", and directed the individual and collective behaviour to love and kindness so as to let man get rid of fear and terror for good, as long as the human race lives in this world.


To frighten with the consequences of wrongdoing is a negative approach, whereas to invite unto love and attachment with a real beneficent and merciful Lord-sustainer is a positive step towards a meaningful life, wherein even a wrongdoer can obtain amnesty if he undertakes to make amends and go straight. The religion of Allah, Islam, grows out of the divine mercy and attracts universal attention with its references, and relies on it to give feasible sense and significance to the relationship between the creator and the created beings.


The religion sent for mankind is Islam which means peace, and the prophet deputised by Allah to translate it into action has been made the "mercy unto the worlds".


The Quran relies upon the beneficence and mercy of Allah to assure man that he is safe in the hands of the beneficent and the merciful Allah, if he willingly surrenders to the almighty Lord of the worlds.


These two attributes of Allah, the creator Lord of the universe, are first presented to man to make him know that his master, by Himself, is beneficent and merciful, which automatically draws man nearer to the real master. Man runs away from dreadful events and things, but to escape the imaginary affliction or hurt from such terrifying agents he may yield to them under compulsion in order to appease their anger. Man, by nature, loves a beneficent being who benefits him, and a merciful being who overlooks his shortcomings. The submission of man to a beneficent and merciful being will undoubtedly be out of love rather than the caution to be safe from any tyrannical affliction, against which he is assured of safety by the qualities of beneficence and mercy.


Right from the beginning the Quran educates man with the truth that his Lord is the most loveable being whose primary quality is beneficence and mercy.


Islam teaches man to start every good effort with the holy name of Allah, who is beneficent and merciful, by invoking His mercy to bless his efforts.


Several other religions and creeds in the world have tried their best to bring down God to the level of man to make man god-minded and reform him. But Islam offers guidance to man to rise unto Allah and get nearer to Him, as nearer as his individual efforts, strengthened by his personal sincerity, can take him.


Islam wants to make man god-minded, so as to create in him the belief that he is nothing, can do nothing and can achieve nothing by himself, for himself or for anybody else. There is none other besides Allah who alone exists and who alone can cause anything to be or not to be. If man assures himself (and acts upon it) that it is Allah's will that is done, and only He and none else can fulfil anything and there is none who can resist His will, it gives him confidence and success. It is our common experience that when a mother censures her child to discipline his conduct, the child, even while being reproved, rushes towards the bosom of his mother. Why? It is because the young human soul is sure, and in his own heart is convinced of his mother's love, full of mercy. There is none else better than her in giving him the required protection even when her own self is being offended by him. It is also seen many a time that when a child in a family is reprimanded by the parents, displeased at any of his offences, he seeks protection with those of the members of the family who, he knows, love him and would surely give him the required protection. This same phenomenon works with maximum effectiveness in the man-god relationship.


Some people want less, and some desire for more, but no human being is free from wants. The demand of indispensable needs in presence of inherent helplessness makes man look for a supreme provider. Islam, at the very outset, creates in man love for and attachment with the Lord-nourisher of the worlds, so as to depend upon the divine mercy with sure conviction of getting that which is needed, by invoking in the name of His beneficence and mercy, the prime attributes of Allah.


It is reported that, with some of his companions, the Holy Prophet, by chance, passed through a graveyard. He covered its ground as quickly as he could. After attending the business, for which he had taken up the excursion, he returned by the same route. But then, very slowly, he walked down the distance of the graveyard. The companions wanted to know the reason. The Holy Prophet informed them that at the time of their first crossing, in one of the graves, a dead man was paying the penalty of his sins, and as a "mercy unto the worlds" he could not stay at a place where punishment was being administered; but during the return journey it so happened that the child of the man in trouble, for the first time, learned and recited bismillahir rahmanir rahim, on account of which the process of punishment had been cancelled.


The merit and the beauty of a religion lies in its perfection, in its contents and its comprehensive presentation. The Quran in this regard is singularly unique. In contrast to the various different creeds of the world, which might have been using some term or the other, the Quranic term, with clarity and perfection, brings home to man the truth that Allah, the Lord of the universe, is not an awful, dreadful, cruel being, void of love and compassion, but His prime attributes are His boundless love and compassion which invite, attract, encourage and even insist upon every sensible human being to rush to Him for the fulfilment of his demands, and to seek His succour in helplessness. ......
http://WWW.AL-ISLAM.ORG/QURAN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:40 am
by yeezevee
Errrrr.. dear Q you paste too much of SILLY STUFF without using YOUR OWN SENSES and without any input from you. That is useless as an individual dear Q..

yeezevee

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:27 am
by The Cat
yeezevee wrote:dear Q you paste too much of SILLY STUFF without using YOUR OWN SENSES and without any input from you. That is useless as an individual dear Q..

yeezevee
As you know yeezevee, Muslims can't think 'outside the box' there in. They either publish what they've learned to recite,
or turn away slamming the door like AB. Muslims simply can't get away with 43.45 and pretend they are monotheists...
Rahman is a divinity by himself known in Hinduism, old Egypt, Judaism and Assyria where he was known as Ramanu,
a god of thunder especially worshiped in Damascus (2Kg.5.18-27). He was usually associated with Hadad as Rimmon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Akkadian Adad is also known as Ramman ("Thunderer") cognate with Aramaic Rimmon which was a byname of the Aramaic Hadad. Ramman was formerly incorrectly taken by many scholars to be an independent Babylonian god later identified with the Amorite god Hadad.
also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadad" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And, contrary to AB's affirmation 'The Compassionate' or 'Beneficent' can't properly translate the Koranic meaning of ar-Rahman!
19.45: O my father! Lo! I fear lest a punishment from the Compassionate overtake thee so that thou become a comrade of the devil.
19.69: Then We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the Beneficent (Compassionate)!

So they got it wrong from the first... A god of 'Thunder and Lightning' can't be 'Beneficent' or 'Compassionate' as they translated!
I think they misunderstood the Judaic meaning with this other Assyrian root. Rahim is already 'Merciful' thus 'Compassionate'. So
the clear redundancy of this meaning in Rahman is forcefully wrong. In the Koranic understanding Rahman means 'The Almighty'!

For example, the Abraha inscription opens with: Bi khayl Rahmanan, best translated like: By the power of the Almighty.
http://www.free-minds.org/language" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The term Al-Rahman is often interpreted in classical Arabic dictionaries to mean "Gracious" or "Beneficent". This is not in line with how the attribute is used in the great reading, where for example, in 19:45 we hear prophet Ibrahim say to his father, a rejecting idol-worshiper, "I fear you would be struck with the wrath of Al-Rahman." The word Al-Rahman in 19:45 is more likely to invoke fear of retribution as opposed to hope of benefit or grace. The Abraha inscription confirms the meaning of Al-Rahman as used in the great quran to mean an attribute that conveys power: The Almighty. Both physical archaeological evidence (as opposed to hearsay) and the great reading are in perfect match on how people at the time of the prophet must have understood the meaning of Al-Rahman. (...)

So it seems that only Al-Rahim was translated and the early post-quranic Arabs totally neglected to translate Al-Rahman. We see the same phenomena on bilingual North Arabian papyri, for example in early Arabic-Greek texts the word "Rahman" is not translated. This proves that even after the revelation of 17:110 the people of Northern Arabia were still confused about the meaning of Al-Rahman and hence didn't translate it.
As it is, the opening line of the Koran is but redundancy, you can as well interchange them:
--In the name of Allah, The Compassionate, The Merciful.
Way meaningful would be:
--In the name of Allah, The Almighty, The Merciful.

Thus these verses start to make better sense:
19.45: I fear lest a punishment from the -Almighty- overtake thee so that thou become a comrade of the devil.
19.69: We shall pluck out from every sect whichever of them was most stubborn in rebellion to the -Almighty-!

Al-Rahman has been erroneously translated from the wrong Judaic source, instead of its Assyrian/Damascus meaning of 'thunderer'.
It is found 169 times, with even sura 55 bearing the name, far more than any other descriptive for Allah, which truly isn't so...

Yet, it doesn't erase the HUGE problem Muslims are facing with a pagan God to be worshiped as well, gratuity of Allah (43.45):
Did We make, other than the Compassionate (?), (other) gods to be worshipped?

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:43 am
by Q
FYI/E.
Divine Glory in Everything

The glory of Allah's Exalted Name is revealed in everything. Allah's name Rahman (Beneficent) is the reflection of His beneficence in the state of action and His name Rahim (Merciful) is the reflection of His mercy in the state of action. The same applies to 'rabbil 'alamin' (Lord of the Universe), 'iyyaka na'budu' (You we worship) etc. According to the second possibility, hamd (praise) in 'al-hamdu lillah' signifies absolute and unqualified praise. In this case the conception of Allah, Rahman and Rahim will also be a little different. According to the first possibility 'ism' (name) means every existing thing with reference to its function. In other words, as the function of anything changes, it becomes a different ‘ism’ or name. But according to the second possibility 'hamd' in 'al-hamdu lillah' signifies unqualified and absolute ‘hamd’ with the names of Allah, Rahman and Rahim.

Allah alone can perform such a ‘hamd’ or praise and He does so with a name that is the name of the manifestation of His glory at the stage of self. In other words, He praises Himself with some of His names at this stage. Allah is the comprehensive name at the stage of self, not at the stage of manifestation. Allah's every name at this stage is His glory. Rahman (Munificent) is the name of His munificence at the stage of self. Rahim (Merciful) is the name of His mercy at the stage of self. The same is the case with such other names as Rab (Sustainer) etc. These conceptions can be proved by means of higher philosophy which is different from commonly known ordinary philosophy. ......
Light Within Me
Chapter: Relationship between Allah and His Creation
Ayatullah Khumayni

http://www.al-islam.org/LWM/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:22 pm
by The Cat
Q wrote:Allah alone can perform such a ‘hamd’ or praise and He does so with a name that is the name of the manifestation
of His glory at the stage of self. In other words, He praises Himself with some of His names at this stage.
First, we've got Allah swearing upon things that He had created, thus inferiors to Him:
36.2: I swear by the Quran full of wisdom.
37.1: I swear by those who draw themselves out in ranks .
51.1: I swear by the wind that scatters far and wide.
51.7: I swear by the heaven full of ways.
52.1: I swear by the Mountain.
53.1: I swear by the star when it goes down.
56.75: I swear by the falling of stars.
68.1: I swear by the pen and what the angels write.
69.38: I swear by that which you see.
74.32: I swear by the moon.
75.1-2: I swear by the day of resurrection. Nay, I swear by the self accusing soul, that the Day of Judgment is a certainty.
77.1: I swear by the emissary winds, sent one after another (for men's benefit).
77.5: I swear by the angels who bring down the revelation.
79.1: I swear by the angels who violently pull out the souls of the wicked...
86.1: I swear by the heaven and the comer by night...
86.11: I swear by the rain-giving heavens...
89.1: I swear by the daybreak...
90.1: Nay! I swear by this city.
91.1: I swear by the sun and its brilliance...
92.1: I swear by the night when it draws a veil...
95.1-3: I swear by the fig and the olive, and mount Sinai, And this city made secure...
100.1: I swear by the runners breathing pantingly...
103.1: I swear by the time...

Looks like Allah suffers from an inferiority complex by which he cannot assume His own supreme sovereignty! :nutkick:
Now, on top of that, we've got a divinity praising Himself, in compensation for this inferiority complex! :stretcher:

This is not a divinity but the embodiment of a paranoid narcissist, in desperate need to be worshiped. :worthy: :gaah:

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:11 am
by Ibn Rushd
So Rahman would be closer theologically to Shaddai.

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:43 am
by The Cat
Ibn Rushd wrote:So Rahman would be closer theologically to Shaddai.
Exactly! And El Shaddai was the specific god of Abraham...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Shaddai" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
El Shaddai (Hebrew: אל שדי‎) is one of the Judaic names of God. El Shaddai is translated as God Almighty. The term may mean "God of the mountains," referring to the Mesopotamian divine mountain. The term was one of the patriarchal names for the tribal god of the Mesopotamians[1] In Exodus 6:3, El Shaddai is identified with Yahweh. The term appears chiefly in the Torah. This could also refer to the Israelite camp's stay at Mount Sinai where God gave Moses the Ten Commandments.

Shaddai was a late Bronze Age Amorite city on the banks of the Euphrates river, in northern Syria. The site of its ruin-mound is called Tel eth-Thadyen: "Thadyen" being the modern Arabic rendering of the original West Semitic "Shaddai". It has been conjectured that El Shaddai was therefore the "god of Shaddai" and associated in tradition with Abraham, and the inclusion of the Abrahamic stories into the Hebrew Bible may have brought the northern name with them (see Documentary hypothesis). (...)

It is often paraphrased in English translations as "Almighty" although this is an interpretive element. The name then refers to the pre-Mosaic patriarchal understanding of deity as "God who is sufficient." God is sufficient, that is, to supply all of one's needs, and therefore by derivation "almighty"........
It can thus reach the meaning of 'Beneficent' but only from self-sufficient almightiness: Unbound or uncaused mercy! So NOT clemency.

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:45 am
by Q
[quote="The Cat
First, we've got Allah swearing upon things that He had created, thus inferiors to Him:
:[/quote]

FYI/E
http://www.al-islam.org/enlightening/52.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:31 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Q wrote:
The Cat wrote: First, we've got Allah swearing upon things that He had created, thus inferiors to Him:
:
FYI/E
http://www.al-islam.org/enlightening/52.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Allah swears by these things to make people think about his creation??? Who says?? Just this guy??? I think this is merely this guy's own invention. I think Allah swears by things for the same reason people do. In order to be convincing. This was a person writing this as it has the exact style that humans use to try and be convincing. That's always why anybody swears on anything. I love the way Muslims just make up whatever they feel like with little or no true basis. The truth is that the Quran never tells us why Allah is swearing upon things, so I can make up my own little story as to why Allah does this as well, and it can be every bit as plausible as this guy's story that he invented for himself, ands neither would have any real basis or substantiation. I've never seen a people so willing to make up stories for themselves as Muslims.

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:19 pm
by The Cat
viewtopic.php?p=96402#p96402" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
AhmedBahgat wrote:I have posted what that ignorant freak named pussy cat allged about Allah's other name "Al-Rahman", along with my slam dunk to his crap, and his is what a knowledgeable Arabic speaker from Bahrain said to me: Mahmoud Darwish said to Ahmed on facebook: That was a piece of cake, I can't even consider his argument and it should not be counted as a slam dunk. If you insist, it can be treated as internet junk
Now, come on AhmedBahgat and argue like a man, not like a hypocrite
claiming 'victory' while in reality he went away from the topic at hand.

I've repeated my, yet unanswered, position:
viewtopic.php?p=96457#p96457" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So?

Re: Is Allah and ar-Rahman the same?

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:34 pm
by yeezevee
The Cat
Now, come on AhmedBahgat and argue like a man,
Robots can not argue , they are only programed to do certain repetitive tasks, such as going to Bahrain to learn Arabic and translate Quran from some other continent ..

yeezevee