Angels around the throne of Allah

[Maersk]

Esoteric -- sh!t. Might as well put what's left of that Muslim brain to good use and to use the same principle to explain the trinity.

The trinity as held to by the Catholics, Orthodox , and most Protestants would be "explained" as follows

That the Father, Son , and Holy Spirit are of one ousia . God is three hypostases or "persons" but one in essence.

It's summed up pretty succinctly int he Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds , Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
...
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

- one for the future.

[Aksel Ankersen]

Can you see a way that angels - real, tangible entities according to Koran - could be stationed around a non-physical object?

Please forgive me but this discussion is really starting to frustrate me due to my inability to properly express myself. It seems that the people I'm discussing this with have a very exoteric understanding of religion and anything that doesn't coincide with that view is judged to be absurd or non-nonsensical. I hate to keep using the same analogy but it remind me of the person who reads a poem that states " his heart was a great ocean" and then commented on it by saying " The organ responsible for pumping blood was filled with a massive body of salt water". Then when anyone offers another meaning they ridicule them for rejecting the (supposedly) "plain" meaning. I understand if you are not interested in studying Islamic "mysticism" , Irfan, Sufism, etc but even if you studied the basics of say Christian esoteric exegesis then maybe you would be able to understand what I am (apparently) unsuccessfully trying to explain.

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (pbuh) a person endowed with the absolute authority to teach the esoteric meaning of the Quran revealed that : " The Book of Allah is of four natures: al-'ibarah, that is to say, the text, that is for the common people; al-Ishara, i.e. allusions that are for the select (khawass) al-lata'if, that is fine mysteries that are for the friends of God (awliya); and finally, al-haqa'iq, the truth which is for the Prophets (anbi'ya)." As a Shi'te this is my understanding of the Quran.

I believe this is perfectly inline with what is revealed regarding the understanding of the Quran:

"Verily, this is indeed a Nobel Quran , in a Book kept hidden, which none touches except the purified"."

This is view isn't limited to Shi'ites however . Even such an impeccable authority within Sunni Islam like Al-Ghazzali recognizes this reality:

"The man who claims that the Koran has no meaning except that which the exoteric exegesis has transmitted is acknowledging his own limitation. He is right in his acknowledgment, but is wrong in his judgment that puts all people on the level to which he is limited and bound. Indeed, reports and traditions ( of the Prophet and others) indicate that for men of understanding there is great latitude in the meaning of the Koran. Thus 'Ali said "The Messenger of God did not confide to me anything which he concealed from people, except that God bestows understanding of the Koran upon a man." If there were no meaning other than that which has been transmitted, what then is meant by that understanding of the Koran? The Prophet said , "surely the Koran has an outward aspect (Zahr) , an inward aspect (batin), an ending and a beginning." This tradition is also related as being from Ibn Mas'ud on his own authority, and he was one of the scholars of exegesis. What then is the meaning of the outward aspect, the inward aspect, end and beginning?"

Ali said, " If I wished I could load seventy camels with the exegesis of the Opening Surah (al-Fatiha) of the Koran". What is the meaning of this, when the exoteric interpretation [of this Surah] is extremely short? Abu al-Darada said " A man does not truly understand until he attributes different perspectives to the Koran." A certain scholar said "For every Koranic verse there are sixty thousand understandings and what remains to be understood is even more ." Others have said " The Koran contains seventy seven thousand two hundred sciences, for every word in it is a science, and then that number can be quadrupled, since every word has an outward aspect, an inward aspect, an end and a beginning"

The Prophets repetition of the phrase " In the name of God the merciful, the compassionate" twenty times was only for the purpose of pondering its esoteric meanings (batin ma'aniha). Otherwise its explanation and exegesis are so obvious that someone like him would not need to repeat it. Ibn Masu said " He who desires the knowledge of the ancients and the moderns should ponder the Koran." and that is not something that can be attained merely by its exoteric interpretation".

Okay, Koran has passages with esoteric meaning, regardless, if angels are said to be standing (or flying) around a throne it must by necessity be as real as the angels themselves. They aren't simply "near" to the throne in the sense of identifying with it or upholding it as a concept - that would be a valid use of metaphor like the "heart was an ocean".

For one or more angels to be literally circumambulating the throne, the throne must occupy a specific location in space - and by extension be a physical object.

Regards

[ishraqiyun]

he throne must occupy a specific location in space - and by extension be a physical object

If you dream of a chair is the chair in your dream actually a physical object? Is it composed of matter? If one has a mystical unveiling and they experience a vision of a throne is that throne necessarily a physical object? Things experienced in a imaginal or visionary manner are not made out of earthly matter. They may have a "body" of sort ( a subtle or imaginal body) but that doesn't imply that they exist as a physical object in this world.

Henry Corbin addresses this in many of his writings. This is a good introduction to the topic:

http://www.hermetic.com/bey/mundus_imaginalis.htm

[Trojan]

he throne must occupy a specific location in space - and by extension be a physical object

If you dream of a chair is the chair in your dream actually a physical object? Is it composed of matter? If one has a mystical unveiling and they experience a vision of a throne is that throne necessarily a physical object? Things experienced in a imaginal or visionary manner are not made out of earthly matter. They may have a "body" in accordance with realm of existence ( a subtle or imaginal body) they exist or are experienced in but that really doesn't imply that they exist as a physical body in this world.

Does that mean the 72 Wide eyed virgins, and pearly boys promised to righteous Muslim men are not of earthly matter, but imaginary stuff ? ? ?. Darn! This is sure going to disapoint them sucide bombers.

[ishraqiyun]

When I say "imaginal" I'm not talking about what commonly goes under the term "imaginary". The imaginary is merely subjective fantasy. Imaginal experiences are of an objective reality.. in fact of a higher reality then mere physical existence. I mentioned dreams just to prove a point and not to suggest that they are usually on the same level as spiritual experiences . Dreams can partake of Imaginal reality but often they are simply subjective fantasy. The imaginal realm exists below the realm of pure forms and above the realm of earthly physical existence. The Divine forms take on (or are manifest by) imaginal bodies in this realm.

Here are a few quotes from Henry Corbins book "Swedenborg and Esoteric Islam" that might help elaborate this idea better then I can:

alam al-mithal, the world of the Image, mundus imaginalis: a world as ontologically real as the world of the senses and the world of the intellect, a world that requires a faculty of perception belonging to it, a faculty that is a cognitive function, a noetic value, as fully real as the faculties of sensory perception, or intellectual intuition. This faculty is the imaginative power, the one we must avoid confusing with the imagination that modern man identifies with "fantasy" and that, according to him, produces only the "imaginary."

I have proposed the Latin term mundus imaginalis for it, because we are obliged to avoid any confusion between what is here the object of imaginative or imaginal perception and what we ordinarily call the imaginary. This is so because the current attitude is to oppose the real to the imaginary as though to the unreal, the utopian, as it is to confused symbol with allegory, to confuse the exegesis of the spiritual sense with an allegorical interpretation.

...the appearance of an Image having the quality of a symbol is a primary phenomena (Urphanomen), unconditional and irreducible, the appearance of something that cannot manifest itself otherwise to the world where we are.

If we do not have available a cosmology whose schema can include, as does the one that belongs to our traditional philosophers, the plurality of universes in ascensional order, our Imagination will remain unbalanced, its recurrent conjunctions with the will to power will be an endless source of horrors. We will be continually searching for a new discipline of the Imagination, and we will have great difficulty in finding it as long as we persist in seeing in it only a certain way of keeping our distance with regard to what we call the real, and in order to exert an influence on that real.

For instead of the image being elevated to the level of a world that would be proper to it, instead of it appearing invested with a symbolic function, leading to an internal sense, there is above all a reduction of the image to the level of sensory perception pure and simple, and thus a definitive degradation of the image. Should it not be said, therefore, that the more successful this reduction is, the more the sense of the imaginal is lost, and the more we are condemned to producing only the imaginary?

...is it not precisely this postulate of the objectivity of the imaginalworld that is suggested to us, or imposed on us, by certain forms or certain symbolic emblems (hermetic, kabbalistic; or mandalas) that have the quality of effecting a magic display of mental images, such that they assume an objective reality?

[skynightblaze]

@ ishraqiyun

We have beyond doubt proven that throne is physical and not spiritual using quran and the hadiths. What makes you still believe that the throne is spiritual and not literal even when you havent addressed the arguments raised by us?

[ishraqiyun]

Which arguments did I not answer ? I was just answering the objection that one can not experience a non-physical object moving around a throne. I answered the objection raised regarding 3:7. No one has produced a hadith or Quranic verse stating that "Gods throne is composed of physical matter" or " is composed of atoms" that is merely a conclusion you came to but is not demanded by the Quran itself.

[charleslemartel]

Which arguments did I not answer ? I was just answering the objection that one can not experience a non-physical object moving around a throne. I answered the objection raised regarding 3:7. No one has produced a hadith or Quranic verse stating that "Gods throne is composed of physical matter" or " is composed of atoms" that is merely a conclusion you came to but is not demanded by the Quran itself.

Read my posts and reply to them.

[Maersk]

Can I have a stab? Where does the sun go prostrate to? Surely, the sun is a physically entity without a soul and conscience but where in the Quran and Hadith suggest that has, and likewise where in the Quran does it suggests that Modk did not expect Muslims to be in awe of what the Sun could not see - this throne??

[Maersk]

Which arguments did I not answer ? I was just answering the objection that one can not experience a non-physical object moving around a throne. I answered the objection raised regarding 3:7. No one has produced a hadith or Quranic verse stating that "Gods throne is composed of physical matter" or " is composed of atoms" that is merely a conclusion you came to but is not demanded by the Quran itself.

Did Modk 'experience' the non - entity Gibril? He may not have see him but did he sense his presence??

[MastaBlaster]

wassup. im back again to that lame site..well lets see what the usual pingpong game. starting with khalil

Allah has a physical body that is perceivable for believers in the hereafter. IT is not a body that is entirely different to the body in human understandings because it is human beings who are going to perceive him in the hereafter like full-moon in the sky. See the hadith

the quran is clear that no vision can perceive Allah 6:103, and that there is nothing like unto Him 42:11 so dump your hadith or interpret it in another way if you wanna keep it in your repertoire

This is a shallow claim because in Quran Allah says his throne is over the waters

the throne and kursi when used for allah are not literal because there is nothing like unto Him, throne and kursi are used as symbols of things relating to Allah

Otherwise, if you affix a different meaning to throne as dominion how are you going to reconcile the absurdity of Allah’s dominion being over the water?

how is it abdsurd for allah's dominion to be over the waters

“Hawla” does not mean “near” and it is not used in Quran just to denote “nearness”..I checked three official translators of Quran (Asad, Yousuf Ali, Picktal) to confirm “Hawla” refers to “Around”

hawla connotes nearness in the verse i gave.
even in english, the word "around" can be used for nearness.

I hope this makes clear “Hawla” stands for “surrounding or around”

yeah you made it clear that words can have different meanings depending on the subject and the context so whats your point exactly.

And the angels will be on the sides thereof, and eight will uphold the Throne of their Lord that day, above them.[Quran: 69:17]
Here in the above verses, it says eight angels will be upholding the throne of Allah. This mentioning of number of angels is designative of Allah’s throne being something physical.

this verse has the same meaning of 40:7 which i already explained

Finally, in Surah Yousuf of Quran, “Arsh” the same word we are discussing which means throne is used. It is used to indicate the throne of Yousuf who was then the king of Egypt.

yes it is used for yusuf. yusuf is not God, different context, different subject, different meaning like in all languages, so why are you suprised when it comes to arabic.
when the Quran says that allah speaks, hears or sees, it does not mean He has a tongue, ears or eyes 42:11"there is nothing whatever like unto Him"

So, “Arsh” means “throne” in literal sense.

when used for humans


now lets check the other nervous guy, just for fun

Lets see what you wrote and verify whether it makes sense or not

it makes perfect sense

FIrst of all quran never says that Allah is omnipresent

depends what u mean by omnipresent. physically? no. He is not some material entity that occupies a certain space and is not subject to time and space, which are His own creation. but He is inside you and everywhere you look. He sees all and knows all

2) IS Allah inside the mind of the kafir? If Allah is inside then it means Allah causes the kafirs to be disbelievers.

hahahahaha! you're not a very clever individual, are you

50:22 says that you would be exposed to something(removing veil) that you didnt pay attention to. That doesnt mean that something which you had no idea about.

look, im not gonna start schooloing you in each quran verse i quote. what, you cant even read?
50:22 says that on judgement day, our vision is made sharp because the veil is lifted from in front of us. we will clearly distinguish and understand the "how" of the unseen realities spoken of through allegories in the mighty quran. this day will bring about the fulfillement of the truths spoken of in this Book 7:53.

IF what you say was true

it is 100% true

tell us what sense does Allah make by sending allegorical verses which we arent not going to understand?

i already explained that. they deal with matters beyond our psyche and knowledge, beyond this world and it will remain so until the veil of the unseen is lifted on the day of resurrection and the fulfillement of the truth brought by muhammad is unfolded. in the meantime, these matters are explained through allegories. just like if you had to explain to a kid how to do babies until a time comes when he will fully understand the sweeeeeet reality of it

Also 7:53 says that the disbelievers are waiting for the signs of judgement day to be true. It doesnt say quran will be revealed of the obscure meanings

look stop watching lionking while writing your lame arguments. 7:53 says what i told you it says.
it doesnt say the unbelievers are waiting for anything since it is speaking of the day of resurrection. how can they wait for something they dont believe in, goodnight-blaze? see how lame you always look. the question asked in the verse "Are [the unbelievers] but waiting for the final meaning of that [Day of Judgment] to unfold?" is a rethorical one.
the verse says that the truth brought by muhammad (the quran) will fulfill itself on the day of resurrection, meaning all the stuff spoken of in it will become fully apparent, such as you crying like your lionking to be spared the severest spanking ahahahah "On the day when the fulfilment of it comes, those who are forgetful of it will say: the messenger of our Lord brought the truth"

Read Haiks response

whose haik. the other lame guy who responded with his hadiths?

He has proved beyond doubt that the throne is a physical entity

hahahaha

I am zero in arabic

as well as in all the rest in this life and the hereafter

I have responded to 50:22 and 7:53 above

hahahaha

[KhaliL]

________________

wassup. im back again to that lame site..well lets see what the usual pingpong game. starting with khalil

I am honored and how much you expect for this my dear friend? Mastablaster or Shindeiru..?

Allah has a physical body that is perceivable for believers in the hereafter. IT is not a body that is entirely different to the body in human understandings because it is human beings who are going to perceive him in the hereafter like full-moon in the sky. See the hadith

the quran is clear that no vision can perceive Allah 6:103, and that there is nothing like unto Him 42:11 so dump your hadith or interpret it in another way if you wanna keep it in your repertoire

It is funny you as a Muslim demands me to dump hadith. I never made any, so why should I bother dumping? You should have diverted the retort to Imam Bukhari who betrayed you reporting:

Narrated Jarir bin 'Abdullah: We were with the Prophet on a full moon night. He looked at the moon and said, "You will certainly see your Lord as you see this moon, and there will be no trouble in seeing Him.[Sahih Bukhari: Book 10, Hadith:547]

If you want to forget the hadith, then stick with Quran. Allah says believers will meet him. It is in several places of Quran. I will bring a few:

Those who know that they will have to meet their Lord, and that unto Him they are returning.[Quran: 2:46 ]

Your women are a tilth for you so go to your tilth as ye will, and send before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers,[Quran: 2:223 ]

And on the day when He shall gather them together, as though they had tarried but an hour of the day, recognizing one another, those will verily have perished who denied the meeting with Allah and were not guided. [Quran10:45]

What is your god speaking about? If believers have to meet him, should not he have physical features?

the throne and kursi when used for allah are not literal because there is nothing like unto Him, throne and kursi are used as symbols of things relating to Allah

If Allah is literal, then Arsh, Kursi are too literal. The verse you brought to defend Allah’s unperceivable nature is related to this world and not the world hereafter. If believers will meet with him in hereafter, there is no rationale to surmise Allah does not have a physical body. IF Allah is physical, his throne too is material.

And I don’t think Moses was not speaking to Allah and he was not hearing Allah speaking in Mount Sinai.[ Quran 7:143]

If Allah is a source that generates coherent phrases for a human being to hear and grasp, should not he have necessary means for it? I mean physical features like vocal cords?

Otherwise, if you affix a different meaning to throne as dominion how are you going to reconcile the absurdity of Allah’s dominion being over the water?

how is it abdsurd for allah's dominion to be over the waters

It is absurd to believe Allah’s vast dominion is over the waters. I think you did not understand the real meaning of dominion.

“Hawla” does not mean “near” and it is not used in Quran just to denote “nearness”..I checked three official translators of Quran (Asad, Yousuf Ali, Picktal) to confirm “Hawla” refers to “Around”

hawla connotes nearness in the verse i gave.
even in english, the word "around" can be used for nearness.

But given the fact Allah and his throne are corporal, “Hawla” refers to "around" especially when we consider what those angels are doing all the time.

I hope this makes clear “Hawla” stands for “surrounding or around”

yeah you made it clear that words can have different meanings depending on the subject and the context so whats your point exactly.

So what? Our problem is with angels surrounding the throne of Allah. If you can prove Allah and his throne are not material, then you will have a case. But Quranic verses and Sahih Hadiths refute you. (Aren’t you a Muslim who will accept Hadiths that are harmonious with Quran? Then you should not have problems with the hadiths I brought in my previous posts and the hadith I brought in this post too)

Finally, in Surah Yousuf of Quran, “Arsh” the same word we are discussing which means throne is used. It is used to indicate the throne of Yousuf who was then the king of Egypt.

yes it is used for yusuf. yusuf is not God, different context, different subject, different meaning like in all languages, so why are you suprised when it comes to arabic.
when the Quran says that allah speaks, hears or sees, it does not mean He has a tongue, ears or eyes 42:11"there is nothing whatever like unto Him"

Yousef is not god and I didn’t argue so. But the word used to denote to his throne is "Arsh" which is the same "Arsh" used for Allah's throne too. I was just bringing Quran to prove a case from Quran.

I did not bring any verses related to Allah speaking, hearing, seeing to prove HE has physical features. But a mortal Moses heard him speaking. If to speak in order for Moses to hear clearly, should not Allah possess the necessary features?

So, “Arsh” means “throne” in literal sense.

when used for humans

And we are talking within the context of humans. It is human beings who are going to meet Allah in their after life. So, “when used for human” is not a sound refutation.

Try to get the picture in a broader canvas my dear Blaster, the Quranic verses and your Sahih Hadiths. Combine both of them. Then you can not help but admit Allah has physical features. Whether it differs to human beings is not an issue at all. Even those Aliens in Hollywood movies differ to human beings though they are coming from planets quite near to us..!!!

Regards
KhaliL

[skynightblaze]

FIrst of all quran never says that Allah is omnipresent

It makes perfect sense
It depends what u mean by omnipresent. physically? no. He is not some material entity that occupies a certain space and is not subject to time and space, which are His own creation. but He is inside you and everywhere you look. He sees all and knows all

sense? IS Allah inside your toilet? YOu stinking liar didnt you say that he is present everywhere and cannot be absent from anywhere?.So it means spiritual Allah must be inside your toilets as well as dustbins. Go and bury yourself mohhemedian your arguments have been thrashed. I asked you 4-5 questions. I dont see any reply here.Tell us how can he be not subject to space unless you accept that he(spiritually) is inside your toilet,dustbins etc (dirty places) too ?You cant accept that.So it means Allah has to be subjected to space . If he is subjected to space he can only be a physical entity not a spiritual entity.

2) IS Allah inside the mind of the kafir? If Allah is inside then it means Allah causes the kafirs to be disbelievers.

hahahahaha! you're not a very clever individual, are you

Ya i must be dumb not to assume Allah inside a toilet and a dustbin.Unlike you i aint intelligent in assuming such a thing

50:22 says that you would be exposed to something(removing veil) that you didnt pay attention to. That doesnt mean that something which you had no idea about.

look, im not gonna start schooloing you in each quran verse i quote. what, you cant even read?
50:22 says that on judgement day, our vision is made sharp because the veil is lifted from in front of us. we will clearly distinguish and understand the "how" of the unseen realities spoken of through allegories in the mighty quran. this day will bring about the fulfillement of the truths spoken of in this Book 7:53.

[050:022] (And unto the evil-doer it is said): Thou wast in heedlessness of this. Now We have removed from thee thy covering, and piercing is thy sight this day.


It seems that you have a problem understanding english language. Heedless doesnt mean "Unclear" . It means "inattentive" . Now if the verses were allegorical and beyond our grasp tell us idiot why was Allah accusing humans of being Inattentive about the day? Was Allah accusing humans being inattentive about the day even when the meanings were beyond their grasp?. What sort of stupid GOD is this who first sends the verses none can understand and then blame them for being inattentive towards them? So do you see how your attempted bull sh!t failed?

tell us what sense does Allah make by sending allegorical verses which we arent not going to understand?

i already explained that. they deal with matters beyond our psyche and knowledge, beyond this world and it will remain so until the veil of the unseen is lifted on the day of resurrection and the fulfillement of the truth brought by muhammad is unfolded. in the meantime, these matters are explained through allegories. just like if you had to explain to a kid how to do babies until a time comes when he will fully understand the sweeeeeet reality of it

It seems you are yet to understand the problem itself. The book is for humans and not for Allah.You forget this. If none can grasp the meaning then what are they doing in the book that is for humans? You should atleast thought of before using this analogy. In your previous post you said that Allah tells us something beyond our grasp . Now do we tell the babies something beyond their grasp? WE tell them what they can grasp. SO Allah also should tell us something that we can grasp and not something which we cant.So the problem doesnt go away as you tried to show here using baby analogy.Only an idiot can write a book for the audience whose content can be understood only by him.I am yet to see such a person.

Also 7:53 says that the disbelievers are waiting for the signs of judgement day to be true. It doesnt say quran will be revealed of the obscure meanings

look stop watching lionking while writing your lame arguments. 7:53 says what i told you it says.
it doesnt say the unbelievers are waiting for anything since it is speaking of the day of resurrection. how can they wait for something they dont believe in, goodnight-blaze? see how lame you always look. the question asked in the verse "Are [the unbelievers] but waiting for the final meaning of that [Day of Judgment] to unfold?" is a rethorical one.
the verse says that the truth brought by muhammad (the quran) will fulfill itself on the day of resurrection, meaning all the stuff spoken of in it will become fully apparent, such as you crying like your lionking to be spared the severest spanking ahahahah "On the day when the fulfilment of it comes, those who are forgetful of it will say: the messenger of our Lord brought the truth"

7.53.
Do they just wait for the final fulfilment of the event? On the day the event is finally fulfilled, those who disregarded it before will say: "The apostles of our Lord did indeed bring true (tidings). Have we no intercessors now to intercede on our behalf? Or could we be sent back? then should we behave differently from our behaviour in the past." In fact they will have lost their souls, and the things they invented will leave them in the lurch.

Show me where the verse says that the verses relating to day of judgement day are unclear or judgement day details are allegorical and hidden from you humans? There is no word such as unfold here. It only says that people are waiting for the sign to come true. That doesnt mean that people arent aware as to what will happen on the judgement day.
I really appreciate your ability to spill bull sh!t.How many years did you practice to spill that much?

:Read Haiks response

whose haik. the other lame guy who responded with his hadiths?

Haik is Khalil here. He was Haik on the previous forum.I didnt want people to pity you thats why i deliberately chopped the last part of your answer where you laughed.

[MastaBlaster]

hey, you dont have anything better to do than come back again and again with lame posts?

i told you allah is NOT SUBJECT TO TIME AND SPACE, which are His own creation so He does not occupy a specific place at a specific time but He knows all and sees all including the smallest atom in this universe 34:2-3

for the rest of your post, what a useless piece of junk you are and prove yourself to be a waste of time, i shouldnt have bothered with you.
i told you that the matters of the unseen cannot be fully comprehended by us until we come face to face with these concepts on the day of resurrection, because they belong to another world obeying to other creational rules. they are explained to the extent we need to understand them in the meantime, using allegories, just like the example of the kid who doesnt need to know specifically how to make babies until a certain time of his life.

and whats your stupidity about saying that if the verses are allegorical then allah cannot blame people for being inatentive to them? i mean where is the connection between the 2 facts and how did you come up with such a stupidity again? wow..
the allegorical verses explain UNDENIABLE REALITIES to the extent we need to understand them. for example we know without doubt through the repeated statements of the quran there will be a JDay, Hell, Heaven etc but the "how" of these things and their details are unnecessary and beyond us for now because belonging to a different world IN THE REALM OF THE UNSEEN that is beyond our present knowledge and imagination but this is not even remotely an excuse for disbelief in them.

about 7:53 what a total wreck you are. the unbelievers are not waiting for anything SINCE THEY DONT BELIEVE IN THE FIRST PLACE. the question in that verse is a RETHORICAL ONE. the verse says the truth brought by the messengers will fulfill itself on JDay. do you know what fulfilling means? it means the reality of it will become fully apparent and this is because the veil of the unseen will be lifted from our eyes on that day 50:22.
and who said people are not aware of what will happen to them on that day? from where did you bring this stupidity again? everyone is fully explained what to expect on that day, but we dont know (and dont need) the minutest details of every process

stop wasting time lionking, and go save nala, pumba and zazu from the bad hyenas hahaha

[MastaBlaster]

I am honored and how much you expect for this my dear friend? Mastablaster or Shindeiru..?

im shindeiru (all rights reserved, patents pending) and i got banned for the most shady reasons in the old forum, as some of the members of this lame site (non-muslims) expressed. ill be glad to take back that old nickname, maybe you could drop a word to the mods of this forum, with whom you have connections, mister mafia.
but since you apparently swallowed a bit of your hatred and washed your mouth, ill also drop the high kicks to the temple and the flying knees to the jaw hahahaha
au fait, tu parles francais?

It is funny you as a Muslim demands me to dump hadith. I never made any, so why should I bother dumping?

because you're using them in a way which contradicts the quran

You should have diverted the retort to Imam Bukhari who betrayed you reporting:

i dont care what bukhari reported if it remotely contradicts the quran and MOST OF ALL IF IT DEALS WITH MATTERS OF THE UNSEEN, maybe it wasnt transmitted accurately or the hadith should be interpreted differently.
as far as the mighty quran is concerned, no vision can comprehend allah so again if you wanna keep your hadith eiher interpret it differently or dump it

What is your god speaking about? If believers have to meet him, should not he have physical features?

what does meeting Allah have to do with seeing Him or Him having any physical features? To meet Allah on the Day of Resurrection means to perceive Him without any means as all the verses on allah's nature prove.
look for example at how allah accurately answers the unbelievers in 25:21-22. in these verses, they are asking 2 things "Why have not angels been sent down upon us, or (why) do we not see our Lord?". God answers with "On the day when they shall see the angels.." and does not mention anything about Himself being seen, which is in perfect confirmation of 6:103 where no vision whatsoever can perceive Him and 7:143 where allah answered moses' request with "By no means canst thou see Me".
If seeing Allah had been possible on the day of resurrection, Allah would have granted them such, just like the sight of angels as they really are will only be possible in the next world.
i already explained that allah is not subject to time and space, meaning He cannot have a physical shape occupying one place at a time.

If Allah is literal, then Arsh, Kursi are too literal

allah is literal but there is nothing like unto Him, meaning that everything used to describe Him or His actions are allegories. verses speaking of allah's face, hands ect. are not literal, according to the explicit verses (check my first post to your protégé skynightblaze)

And I don’t think Moses was not speaking to Allah and he was not hearing Allah speaking in Mount Sinai...If Allah is a source that generates coherent phrases for a human being to hear and grasp, should not he have necessary means for it? I mean physical features like vocal cords?

it doesnt matter what you think, all that matters is what the quran says and when it tells you that there is nothing like unto Him it means He has no voice like anything you and me know.
the process by which God spoke to Moses and others, or how He revealed the Unseen to His prophets and messengers 42:51, we dont know the reality of it since He doesnt have any physical attribute we can imagine 42:11. But in any case, its effect is the same: making the listener understand the intended message. He creates something which gives the person an inner knowledge of the intended message.

It is absurd to believe Allah’s vast dominion is over the waters

again, how is this absurd. the verse is saying that He firmly esatblished Himself in His power, rule, dominion etc. the throne here is used as a symbol known to men's psyche

But given the fact Allah and his throne are corporal

allah's throne is not literal and what do you mean by allah being "corporal". this is against all the explicit quranic verses

Our problem is with angels surrounding the throne of Allah

aint no problem with that. these verses are saying they are near Allah's throne, meaning they are paramount in executing His commands. they are close to His throne because they execute His will. see my prev post where i already ex^plained those verses

Yousef is not god and I didn’t argue so. But the word used to denote to his throne is "Arsh" which is the same "Arsh" used for Allah's throne too

and i already explained that words have different meanings in different contexts, like in every language. God's hands or speech are not literal 42:11"there is nothing whatever like unto Him".

its very interesting to see how despite the very explicit verses explaining our limits in understanding allah's being, unbelievers will keep speculating, and keep confirming what Allah said
3:7"He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. But none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding"

thats where ill end the ping pong game. can you come up with an interesting subject someday? it would be cool one day to have an islam-hater come up with something interesting to discuss

[AhmedBahgat]

Salam brother MB

With my total respect to your opinion, I just need some clarfication from your side, I am actually not interested in the divertion which the subject of this thread has gone to

However after skimming quickly through the last comments, it seeems that there is a dispute over seeing Allah

I am not sure if the dispute about seeing Allah in this life, or seeing Allah in the hereafter?

if it is in this life, then yes, no human is able to see Him

However, in the hereafter, the Quran clearly confiremd that there will be some in the Garden who will be LOOKING AT THEIR LORD, this is an undisputed Quran verse mate

take cqare

[MastaBlaster]

However, in the hereafter, the Quran clearly confiremd that there will be some in the Garden who will be LOOKING AT THEIR LORD, this is an undisputed Quran verse mate

salaam bro and thanks for your question.

verses such as 6:103 are unrestricted and unconditional, do you agree? "Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware" this is a clear cut, confirmed verse which should be used when coming across verses such as 75:22"(Some) faces on the Day shall be bright, looking towards their Lord". This verse expresses the idea of the witnessing of God's presence through the heart. The verb "to look" was the most suitable word to convey this meaning, but to avert the possibility of any doubt, the Quran clearly explains in the muhkam verse 6:103 that none can literaly see God...
its also interesting to note that on the Day of Resurrection all natural light on Earth and in the universe will be destroyed 81:2,75:7-10 all that shall remain will be the light of God's Mercy 39:69"And the earth shall beam with the light (nur) of its Lord"
the people will witness Allah's presence through their hearts like a blind man can feel a presence in a room without seeing anything, and the believer's faces will be bright from Allah's Nur that will shine only on them while the unbelievers will be deprived from such a light 80:38-42. they will beg the believers to share this light with them 57:13...

[AhmedBahgat]

However, in the hereafter, the Quran clearly confiremd that there will be some in the Garden who will be LOOKING AT THEIR LORD, this is an undisputed Quran verse mate

salaam bro and thanks for your question.

No worries, and I hope we show the Kafirs what a proper discussion should be

verses such as 6:103 are unrestricted and unconditional, do you agree? "Vision comprehends Him not, and He comprehends (all) vision; and He is the Knower of subtleties, the Aware"

I would have agreed if Allah did not tell us the following:

1) All our restricted senses will not be resricted any more at the moment of death and in the hereafter, in fact VISION was clearly highlted that at the Moment of death, BUSARUKA AL YOUM HADEED, i.e. Your vision today is steel, a metaphor to imply that our visions as human will not be restricted any more and will will be able to see what we ccould not see in this life

2) Allah clearly flagged some people who will dwell in the Garden and described them that their faces will be happy and bright while they are looking at their Lord

3) The Quran also flagged the Kafirs as ones who will be prohibited from seeing their Lord

4) In the story of Moses, Allah clearly made Himself visible to the mountain and the mountain collapsed, in fact Allah told Moses that if the moutain won't collapse Moses will be able to see Him, an indication of the possibility that Allah may be visible if He wants that to happen

this is a clear cut,

Only if the above was not in the Quran

confirmed verse which should be used when coming across verses such as 75:22"(Some) faces on the Day shall be bright, looking towards their Lord". This verse expresses the idea of the witnessing of God's presence through the heart. The verb "to look" was the most suitable word to convey this meaning, but to avert the possibility of any doubt, the Quran clearly explains in the muhkam verse 6:103 that none can literaly see God...

But we do not need that heart part any more in the Garden, in fact we will be totally different humans, who will not even get tired

I am sorry, with all other facts mentioned in the Quran, Allah can make Himself visible if He wants to, He did with the mountain

Cheers

[MastaBlaster]

1) All our restricted senses will not be resricted any more at the moment of death and in the hereafter, in fact VISION was clearly highlted that at the Moment of death, BUSARUKA AL YOUM HADEED, i.e. Your vision today is steel, a metaphor to imply that our visions as human will not be restricted any more and will will be able to see what we ccould not see in this life

2) Allah clearly flagged some people who will dwell in the Garden and described them that their faces will be happy and bright while they are looking at their Lord

3) The Quran also flagged the Kafirs as ones who will be prohibited from seeing their Lord

50:22 says that vision will be made sharp as it never been but does not speak of the ability to see Allah or not. and 75:22 speaking of the believers who will be looking towards allah does not mean that they will see Him. the verse says they will be looking in His direction and their faces will be illuminated with His light (which will be the only light shining in the universe), imagine someone standing in the dark beaming his torchlight in your direction; you are looking towards him withoutt seeing him and his light illuminates you.
i cannot see anyway around 6:103 which is clear that NO VISION can comprehend Him

4) In the story of Moses, Allah clearly made Himself visible to the mountain and the mountain collapsed, in fact Allah told Moses that if the moutain won't collapse Moses will be able to see Him, an indication of the possibility that Allah may be visible if He wants that to happen

how do we know exactly in what sense did Allah "manifest His glory to the mountain"? it does not say anything about Allah showing HIMSELF or the mountain "seeing" Him. the sense in which Allah "manifested His glory to the mountain" certainly does not mean manifesting His reality in a visible way since a mountain cannot "see" and even if He did literally manifest Himself to the mountain, it only further corroborated 6:103 which proves that no vision can comprehend Him. Even mountains are not able to bear the "vision" of God so how can man who is so feeble a structure before these mountains can bear this vision.
of course Allah can make Himself visible but He will not since no vision can comprehend Him, and would be so great to bear that it would cause the destruction of anything seeing Him.

[AhmedBahgat]

1) All our restricted senses will not be resricted any more at the moment of death and in the hereafter, in fact VISION was clearly highlted that at the Moment of death, BUSARUKA AL YOUM HADEED, i.e. Your vision today is steel, a metaphor to imply that our visions as human will not be restricted any more and will will be able to see what we ccould not see in this life

2) Allah clearly flagged some people who will dwell in the Garden and described them that their faces will be happy and bright while they are looking at their Lord

3) The Quran also flagged the Kafirs as ones who will be prohibited from seeing their Lord

50:22 says that vision will be made sharp as it never been but does not speak of the ability to see Allah or not.

Hello

But it means that we will be able you see what we are restricted to see, if you want to take the verse about visions do not grasp Him as general, then this verse is general too, i.e. our vision will be sharp like steel, which means strength

and 75:22 speaking of the believers who will be looking towards allah does not mean that they will see Him. the verse says they will be looking in His direction and their faces will be illuminated with His light

The verse is using the word NAZIRAH, i.e looking at, the Arabic word does not allow any manipulations, sorry

(which will be the only light shining in the universe), imagine someone standing in the dark beaming his torchlight in your direction; you are looking towards him withoutt seeing him and his light illuminates you.

That is just total crap to be honest, again the word used is NAZIRAH, i.e. LOOKING AT

remember the story of the prophet with the dead donkey, remember what Allah told him

Onzur, i.e. LOOK AT

Again, whatever you will do, you will not be able to manipulate the clear Arabic word, NAZIRAH, i.e. LOOKING AT

Please concede and be a man, you do not need to dispute it with me and it is not shame to concede mistakes, I did it many times before, just try to make them min, you will never eliminate them as most certainly I won't be able to do to myself to

i cannot see anyway around 6:103 which is clear that NO VISION can comprehend Him

UNLESS HE WANTS TO, as He did with the mountain

Also Allah says about the kafirs that they will be MAHJUBOON AN RABIHIM, i.e. will not SEE HIM as implied by the word HIJAB

4) In the story of Moses, Allah clearly made Himself visible to the mountain and the mountain collapsed, in fact Allah told Moses that if the moutain won't collapse Moses will be able to see Him, an indication of the possibility that Allah may be visible if He wants that to happen

how do we know exactly in what sense did Allah "manifest His glory to the mountain"?

excuse me sir, do not resort to the same crap by the ignorant goons in here and bring to me some flawed and crappy english translation

the Arabic word is TAJJALA , i.e. APPEARED, another word that can not be manipulated, and if you look carefully that Allah was the one He destroyed the mountain, to make sure that Moses could not see Him because according to Allah words to Moses, if the moutain stayed, then Mozses will see Allah, the moutain however did not fall of itself, rather Allah was the one who made it DAKKA so His words stays true to Moses, the moral of the story that in this life Allah made Himself UNSEEN to all humans. this resrecition will be removed on the moment of death.

it does not say anything about Allah showing HIMSELF or the mountain "seeing" Him. the sense in which Allah "manifested His glory to the mountain" certainly does not mean manifesting His reality in a visible way since a mountain cannot "see" and even if He did literally manifest Himself to the mountain, it only further corroborated 6:103 which proves that no vision can comprehend Him. Even mountains are not able to bear the "vision" of God so how can man who is so feeble a structure before these mountains can bear this vision.

OF course, it does, it says Allah TAJJALA to the moutain, i.e. appeared to te moutain, if it is about Allah presence as you are implying by your confusion, then why He needs to TAJALLA to the moutain while He is already presenet next to the mountain and every where for that matter?

mate, the above is my last comment regarding the subject, you may keep dancing around it, however your dance won't work with those who know the Arabic Quran

please act as every mistaken believer should act

Salam and take care