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Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:08 pm
by Wootah
I am interested to find out what the Muslim position is, whether the weight of evidence in the Koran and Hadith suggests as you imply that the test is not whether we are good or bad but "merely to get us to act out what is in our hearts", more of a revealing process than a determining process. Or is the test really one where free will is involved and we can participate in our salvation. If you have evidence from the Koran or Hadith to support the first notion that would be fascinating.

Anyway, do you mind if I try the gold old Christian try at your dilemma. Here are three articles that I will work from but not require you to read.
http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html
http://www.carm.org/questions/about-god ... ll-go-hell
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... pAsnkxOO0e

Dealing within the Christian dogma. The answer that satisfies me is that we humans need to be satisfied. For me to live this live and know the consequences and see life played out large on the stage and the choices we make means that I am satisfied with the justice of God. Second as accepting Jesus is essential were I to wake up in Heaven then I would never had taken this step, should God plant that memory in me? It seems deceptive. Even though God knows the story it simply has to be played out. It has to of been real. Third, God seems to highly regard love freely offered. So much so that he accepts that some will reject him and choose option K. If you were on a boat and there was a man at sea and all he needed to do was to reach out his hand to be rescued and he didn't - would you be to blame for his drowning?

Can you conceive of a situation in normal life where the rescuer makes every attempt to rescue and the rescuee makes none and yet the rescuer is to be blamed if the rescuee dies? If you can then option K might be valid.

Whilst the above will draw comment I am interested in the Muslim position more than the Christian view as per the thread.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:26 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Wootah wrote:I am interested to find out what the Muslim position is, whether the weight of evidence in the Koran and Hadith suggests as you imply that the test is not whether we are good or bad but "merely to get us to act out what is in our hearts", more of a revealing process than a determining process. Or is the test really one where free will is involved and we can participate in our salvation. If you have evidence from the Koran or Hadith to support the first notion that would be fascinating.

Anyway, do you mind if I try the gold old Christian try at your dilemma. Here are three articles that I will work from but not require you to read.
http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html
http://www.carm.org/questions/about-god ... ll-go-hell
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... pAsnkxOO0e

Dealing within the Christian dogma. The answer that satisfies me is that we humans need to be satisfied.


This could mean that humans invented God to satisfy themselves. I'm not saying it does, but this starts to lean in that direction.

Wootah wrote: For me to live this live and know the consequences and see life played out large on the stage and the choices we make means that I am satisfied with the justice of God. Second as accepting Jesus is essential were I to wake up in Heaven


Assumption

Wootah wrote: then I would never had taken this step,


What step? Creating yourself?

Wootah wrote: should God plant that memory in me?


What memory? The events of your life?

Wootah wrote:It seems deceptive. Even though God knows the story it simply has to be played out.


Who says? Particularly in the case of playing out the bad stuff and hell.

Wootah wrote: It has to of been real. Third, God seems to highly regard love freely offered. So much so that he accepts that some will reject him and choose option K.


option K isn't a choice, it's a logical conclusion that was outlined. The only way out of this problem is to say that God does not know the future 100%. Only then could we be said to have free will.

Wootah wrote: If you were on a boat and there was a man at sea and all he needed to do was to reach out his hand to be rescued and he didn't - would you be to blame for his drowning?


I would blame the man who didn't reach out and also blame the person that put him there in the water in the first place, knowing that he wouldn't reach out before he even put him there. In fact, the latter could possibly be said to be more to blame. That's arguable.

Wootah wrote:Can you conceive of a situation in normal life where the rescuer makes every attempt to rescue and the rescuee makes none and yet the rescuer is to be blamed if the rescuee dies? If you can then option K might be valid.


The rescuer KNEW the person would not ask for help and could have avoided the whole situation by not even creating the rescuee knowing that not only would this be their fate, but eternal hell would be their fate as well. you don't think that's worse than Hitler?? Hitler merely killed people who got in his way.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:24 pm
by Wootah
option K isn't a choice, it's a logical conclusion that was outlined. The only way out of this problem is to say that God does not know the future 100%. Only then could we be said to have free will.


Either you believe we have free will or you don't. If you don't then you do surrender morality and responsibility, after all if one is destined to murder then one is not responsible for it. Once morality is surrendered it is kind of pointless to talk of heaven and hell. I find it untenable to maintain a society where a person cannot be considered to be responsible for their actions.

The rescuer KNEW the person would not ask for help and could have avoided the whole situation by not even creating the rescuee knowing that not only would this be their fate, but eternal hell would be their fate as well. you don't think that's worse than Hitler?? Hitler merely killed people who got in his way.


Well if we consider God as the rescuer is that if God actively pulls you out of the water regardless of whether the rescuee wants to be rescued or not then there is no consequence to our actions. Make bad choices in life, do bad things and God intervenes. But then we are no better than robots that get wound up walk and are about to fall off the table and God turns us around. What you want is to my mind the death of the possibility of free will and love.

I don't think hell is morally worse than Hitler. Hell is the prison where the prisoner walks into it. I personally view Hell as just the place where God does not reside. It is a necessary consequence of eternal beings rebelling and having to be put somewhere.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:20 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Wootah wrote:
option K isn't a choice, it's a logical conclusion that was outlined. The only way out of this problem is to say that God does not know the future 100%. Only then could we be said to have free will.


Either you believe we have free will or you don't. If you don't then you do surrender morality and responsibility, after all if one is destined to murder then one is not responsible for it. Once morality is surrendered it is kind of pointless to talk of heaven and hell. I find it untenable to maintain a society where a person cannot be considered to be responsible for their actions.


Untenable or not, if God knew your destiny before he even created you, you cannot be said to have free will. For me, free will was the sacrifice or compromise of knowledge and/or power of God and God had to have decided to sacrifice this. God cannot be all knowing of the future and free will also can be said to truly exist. That's a logical impossibility that most people haven't figured out yet, but it most certainly is an impossibility and very easy to understand if one is willing to do so with a clear, objective mind. It's not rocket science.

Wootah wrote:
The rescuer KNEW the person would not ask for help and could have avoided the whole situation by not even creating the rescuee knowing that not only would this be their fate, but eternal hell would be their fate as well. you don't think that's worse than Hitler?? Hitler merely killed people who got in his way.


Well if we consider God as the rescuer is that if God actively pulls you out of the water regardless of whether the rescuee wants to be rescued or not then there is no consequence to our actions.


The point is, why did someone who knew you would fail, put you there in the first place so that you can fail??

Wootah wrote:Make bad choices in life, do bad things and God intervenes.


How can one be said to "intervene" on something that they already know will happen?? Would you create something, knowing when you will intervene, so that you can intervene??? Seems a little redundant or unnecessary, doesn't it?

Wootah wrote: But then we are no better than robots that get wound up walk and are about to fall off the table and God turns us around. What you want is to my mind the death of the possibility of free will and love.


It's not the death of free will at all, it's pointing out the contradiction between God knowing the future and us supposedly having free will. One oif them has to go because the two contradict each other. So take your pick, but you can;t have both, or you "can't have your cake and eat it".


Wootah wrote:I don't think hell is morally worse than Hitler.
Hell is the prison where the prisoner walks into it. I personally view Hell as just the place where God does not reside. It is a necessary consequence of eternal beings rebelling and having to be put somewhere.


Then read the Quran and find out that not only will your face be burned, but it will be continually healed again so that it can be continually burned again.

As far as it being a necessary consequence, it is not necessary at all. That's the whole point that nobody seems to get. God has to knowingly create someone, knowing they will go to hell before they are even created, before a hell even becomes necessary. Do you see the philosophical contradiction and problem??

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:36 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:
yeezevee wrote:
you forgot an important point between the above, before Allah watch it to happen, He has the power to first allow it to happen or not

STOP TALKING LIKE KAFFIR.............


A am not sure what you mean bio-cofused yekee?

Well, I said what the Quran said:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا (30)
And you do not will except that Allah wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 76:30]

I.e. you do not will except that Allah wills, possibly this is a bit hard for you kafir bio-confused dear yekee?

Let me give you an example

Imagine you are a tard (possibly you are in reality) but I just want you to assume it for argument sake, and you willed to kill an annocent man like me

Now Allah should have known that you are a tard and I am a innocent man, as well He should have known your MAKR i.e. your plan to kill me

At this moment of time, it is all in the hands of Allah, either He allows a tard like you to kill an innocent like me and in this case you have certainly lost and will be among the companion of the blaze, while the victim may also look a loser, lost his life, we do not know if his end of life in such way will lead to a better consequence in he hereafter or not.

On the other hand He also can stop it from happening, for example, you may shoot me between the eyes, and I still survive due to something in the future that Allah knows that I should do, yet you will be still punished for you go at killing me and indeed the evidences would have been collected and shown to you on that day, then you will convict your own arse, and cry like a baby

simple now, bio-yekee?


Oh my God, your reasoning skills truly are this retarded aren't they. Are you sure you don't drink? :lol: I'll tell you, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:00 pm
by Eagle
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:someone will commit murder if you give them a gun, so you go ahead and give them a gun so that you can arrest them and punish them?


so your murderer was sitting sipping his coffee then a gun fell down from heaven in his hand, his human target was made to pass in front of him then his hand was raised by an invisible force that pulled the trigger?

Allah does not purposely create evil situations with the aim of punishing people.
God has created man to receive His mercy 11:119, so all people are created spiritually equal 30:30 (original fitra), with the ability to understand good and evil 91:7-8, endowed with the spiritual senses for the cognizance of Divine existance 23:78,46:26 surrounded with obvious signs of God's attributes 2:115 and sent divine guidance that can be freely accepted or rejected 2:256. Using that freewill when responding to situations, man alone is responsible for his increase or decrease in spiritual receptivity.
Perfection is not expected which is why God forgives the sincere, but we are given all the tools to succeed and God will judge fairly according to each situation 6:132.

in your example, your potential murderer used his freewill to go and find a gun with the aim of killing.
if he refrains from taking the gun to kill, it will be a case where his heart is cleansed from an evil urge 3:154"that He might purge what was in your hearts". but if the person decides to take the gun with the aim of killing, he misses on that occasion and his heart is further "hardened", his spiritual receptivity declines.
Then the potential murderer uses his freewill again to go find his victim. When he meets the victim, if he refrains from killing, then it is a case where his heart is purged again 3:154. if he kills, he has sinned and failed the test and the evidence will be brought against him on JDay where he will see it and convict himself, as AhmedBahgat taught you.

After the crime is commited, God could immidiately bring down His justice but He leaves a time of respite as stated in 18:58. during this time of respite, sinners are given a lighter punishement 32:21 aimed at making them mend their ways before the greater punishement of the hereafter.
The sinners may respond positively to that "wake up call" and be forgiven 20:82 or continue in their evil ways.

During this whole time, the person's freewill is always encompassed by God's power who could influence/prevent the person from using it 6:137,11:56. To prove this, the Quran gives a few examples where God applied both scenarios (freewill/no freewill) and informed us of the outcome beforehand:
-with the example of the boy slain by Khidr -by a command from Allah- before he used his freewill to become an uncontrolable criminal and source of suffering for the parents
-with the example of Abu Lahab who was left to use his freewill and continue in his evil ways until he died

Especially with the story of Khidr, the Quran humbles the believer as Khidr humbled Musa, and teaches him that whatever Allah does, it is done according to His wisdom and justice. Nothing passes out of His control, not even man's freewill, and man is allowed enough of it so as to be accountable to his actions.
Musa himself one of God's prophets who had received knowledge of the unseen, heard Allah speak, was humbled by Khidr who gave him a demonstration that even a great prophet's intellect cannot always comprehend the Divine will, wisdom and justice.
So God could and does sometimes "save" someone by taking away his freewill and preventing him from doing evil, or He could and does sometimes leave him to use his freewill and bare full responsibility for his actions.
Both scenarios are possible according to Allah's will, wisdom and justice and a believer, just like a prophet of God, knows the limits of his understanding when it comes to the will of the Creator in certain situations.

For those who, like Abu Lahab, are left to commit so many sins until they die despite the tools to succeed and the "wake up calls", the Quran says that hell does not necessarly have to be an eternal abode for them. Those who did nothing in this life to deserve God's mercy and forgiveness in the hereafter, will then have to wait for God's justice.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:40 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:someone will commit murder if you give them a gun, so you go ahead and give them a gun so that you can arrest them and punish them?


so your murderer was sitting sipping his coffee then a gun fell down from heaven in his hand, his human target was made to pass in front of him then his hand was raised by an invisible force that pulled the trigger?

Allah does not purposely create evil situations with the aim of punishing people.


You said that Allah does not test us to find out what is in our heart, but rather to bring out the good or evil in our heart that he knows is already there so that he can either punish or reward us. You clearly claimed at the very beginning that he needs us to manifest what is in our hearts so that he can either reward us or punish us and that he can do neither unless we actually act upon what is in our hearts, and that is the purpose of the test. Do I need to re-quote you? That is purposefully creating situations where evil people will be tested and where Allah already knows they will commit evil, but he merely baits them (or tests them) to act on their heart so that he officially has reason and justification to punish them in hell. We're all going to watch the inventive BS fall apart little by little. Been there, done that.

Eagle wrote:God has created man to receive His mercy 11:119,


Not the people that he knew would not receive his mercy. He knew they never would before he even created them and yet he created them anyway.

Eagle wrote:so all people are created spiritually equal 30:30 (original fitra), with the ability to understand good and evil 91:7-8, endowed with the spiritual senses for the cognizance of Divine existance 23:78,46:26 surrounded with obvious signs of God's attributes 2:115 and sent divine guidance that can be freely accepted or rejected 2:256. Using that freewill when responding to situations, man alone is responsible for his increase or decrease in spiritual receptivity.


So if Allah knew you would end up in hell, before he even created you, but he creates you anyway, you are telling me that you have the free will to make Allah's prediction wrong?? Go ahead, answer that. You won't, you'll tap dance around it, and we both know that.

Eagle wrote:Perfection is not expected which is why God forgives the sincere, but we are given all the tools to succeed and God will judge fairly according to each situation 6:132.


We are given the tools to prove God's prediction about us wrong?? We are given the tools to change the fate that Allah already knew about us before he even created us?? Why do Muslims have such problems with basic logic and philosophy?? You shouldn't even be saying half of the things you are saying if you understood the crux of the problem, but apparently you still don't see it. Others do, but you are a Muslim, so I know it will take a long time to explain to you, but that's ok, I'll take as long as you need,

Eagle wrote:in your example, your potential murderer used his freewill to go and find a gun with the aim of killing.


And somebody who was positive that he would kill gave it to him by their own choice when they didn't have to. What is the matter with your sense of reasoning??

Eagle wrote:if he refrains from taking the gun to kill, it will be a case where his heart is cleansed from an evil urge 3:154"that He might purge what was in your hearts".


Allah already knew which he was going to do, so in the case where he decided to murder, Allah knew he would and gave him the gun to do so, so that he could punish him. Remember, according to your invention, Allah can't send you to hell unless you act upon your evil intentions, right? So he gives you the gun to allow you to act on your evil intentions so that he can can arrest you and punish you. Wouldn't that be very very odd if we found out that the police operated this way? I'm sure a judge would have a tremendous problem with this sort of behavior. It even borders on what's call in legal terms "entrapment", but it's far worse because Allah is 100% in control.

Eagle wrote: but if the person decides to take the gun with the aim of killing, he misses on that occasion and his heart is further "hardened", his spiritual receptivity declines.


Or he has a change of heart, but certainly no change that Allah didn't know he would already have. You seem to be under the mistaken notion that with our free will, a person that Allah knows is bound for hell can change their course and prove Allah wrong. That is the inherent flaw in everything you are thinking right now.

Eagle wrote:Then the potential murderer uses his freewill again to go find his victim.


After you give him the gun knowing he wants to murder someone???

Eagle wrote:When he meets the victim, if he refrains from killing, then it is a case where his heart is purged again 3:154. if he kills, he has sinned and failed the test


How can someone fail a test when the outcome was 100% known?? He didn't fail the test because there was no test if the tester already knew the outcome, he merely played out his failure

Ya' know, it's really really odd that not once, not even once did the Quran say that Allah "shows" them what is in their heart via stimulus he gives them. It always says Allah tests what is in their hearts, not shows them what is in their hearts. And then, once again, we have the example of the test of the reckoning of the people at the cave. Was that because Allah wanted us to act out what is in our hearts?? Of course not, it was Allah testing who had better reckoning just as the stinking verse clearly says

Eagle wrote:and the evidence will be brought against him on JDay where he will see it and convict himself, as AhmedBahgat taught you.


He taught me a long time ago what a moron he was as you appear to be doing right now. That's ok, keep ignoring the real points I raise and dance around with the minor ones. I'll just keep bringing them up until you address them directly. I can keep track.

Eagle wrote:After the crime is commited, God could immidiately bring down His justice but He leaves a time of respite as stated in 18:58. during this time of respite, sinners are given a lighter punishement 32:21 aimed at making them mend their ways before the greater punishement of the hereafter.
The sinners may respond positively to that "wake up call" and be forgiven 20:82 or continue in their evil ways.


But there's no time of respite in the case of someone who Allah has sealed their heart. There's no hope for them, right? That's why Allah seals the heart, right?? Yet another retarded concept of Muhammad's. If Allah is certain that a person will never come to Islam, what the heck is the stupid purpose of applying a seal that is designed to prevent them from coming to Islam after Allah already knows they will never come to Islam?? These are nothing but the uneducated and retarded inventions of a 7th century Bedouin who understood nothing about deeper logic or even philosophy and had no idea had badly he was erring

Eagle wrote:During this whole time, the person's freewill is always encompassed by God's power who could influence/prevent the person from using it 6:137,11:56.


Prevent the person from doing what Allah already knew he would do?? Does Allah watch and occassionally change his mind based on what's going on and then interfere? How does that relate to being all knowing??? Obviously, nobody has ever taught you the philosophical concept of pre-determinism.

Eagle wrote: To prove this, the Quran gives a few examples where God applied both scenarios (freewill/no freewill) and informed us of the outcome beforehand:
-with the example of the boy slain by Khidr -by a command from Allah- before he used his freewill to become an uncontrolable criminal and source of suffering for the parents
-with the example of Abu Lahab who was left to use his freewill and continue in his evil ways until he died


Great, so Muhammad makes up a story about this man that Moses supposedly followed, that we can't find anywhere in past scriptures (I guess it just wasn't important to mention), and this man killed someone to prevent them from doing wrong to his parents. So can you tell me why Allah created this boy in the first place??

And congratulations, you just contradicted your little invention. Wasn't Allah supposed to let the boy carry out what was in his heart so that he could be punished?? See what happens when you make up inventions?? You'll end up having to make up so many more to justify the first invention that you are ultimately bound to start contradicting yourself as you lose track of what you have invented in the past. Seen it many times before. It's almost inevitable and all it takes is the proper questioning and it all starts to fall apart

Eagle wrote:So God could and does sometimes "save" someone by taking away his freewill and preventing him from doing evil,


But Allah knew he would do that evil before he even created him, so why not take it away by not even creating him? Why kill him when he's already a boy?? Did Allah make a new determination about him?? See what's wrong?


Eagle wrote:For those who, like Abu Lahab, are left to commit so many sins until they die despite the tools to succeed and the "wake up calls", the Quran says that hell does not necessarly have to be an eternal abode for them. Those who did nothing in this life to deserve God's mercy and forgiveness in the hereafter, will then have to wait for God's justice.


Where does it say that?

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:16 pm
by yeezevee
Where does it say that?


AL-MASADD (PALM FIBRE, THE FLAME)

111.001: Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.

111.002: His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.

111.003: He shall soon burn in fire that flames,

111.004: And his wife, the bearer of fuel,

111.005: Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.
Abu Lahab ibn 'Abdul Muttalib is among those named as an enemy of Islam, condemned by name in the Sura Al-Masadd. Muslims preach strange stories on this guy...

yeezevee

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:35 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
yeezevee wrote:
Where does it say that?


AL-MASADD (PALM FIBRE, THE FLAME)

111.001: Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.

111.002: His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.

111.003: He shall soon burn in fire that flames,

111.004: And his wife, the bearer of fuel,

111.005: Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.
Abu Lahab ibn 'Abdul Muttalib is among those named as an enemy of Islam, condemned by name in the Sura Al-Masadd. Muslims preach strange stories on this guy...

yeezevee


Boy, you really brought up a very bad verse. Not only do you think that it explains what he's talking about, look at what it is that you think he's talking about. This is the Quran, not a hadith. This is supposed to be the book of instruction for all times, and yet it bothers to mention an individual conflict that relates to Muhammad's personal life??

Hmmmmmm........Why can't any reasonable Muslin see this??? Maybe they do but it's just too hard for them. Who knows. But it's pretty clear.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:57 pm
by piscohot
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
yeezevee wrote:
Where does it say that?


AL-MASADD (PALM FIBRE, THE FLAME)

111.001: Perdition overtake both hands of Abu Lahab, and he will perish.

111.002: His wealth and what he earns will not avail him.

111.003: He shall soon burn in fire that flames,

111.004: And his wife, the bearer of fuel,

111.005: Upon her neck a halter of strongly twisted rope.
Abu Lahab ibn 'Abdul Muttalib is among those named as an enemy of Islam, condemned by name in the Sura Al-Masadd. Muslims preach strange stories on this guy...

yeezevee


Boy, you really brought up a very bad verse. Not only do you think that it explains what he's talking about, look at what it is that you think he's talking about. This is the Quran, not a hadith. This is supposed to be the book of instruction for all times, and yet it bothers to mention an individual conflict that relates to Muhammad's personal life??

Hmmmmmm........Why can't any reasonable Muslin see this??? Maybe they do but it's just too hard for them. Who knows. But it's pretty clear.



Allah took great interest in the personal life of his beloved Muhammad.

examples:

33:50
O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

Permission to marry as many as he wanted so that Muhammad would not be discomforted at having only 4 wives like the rest of the muslims.

33:51
You, [O Muhammad], may put aside whom you will of them or take to yourself whom you will. And any that you desire of those [wives] from whom you had [temporarily] separated - there is no blame upon you [in returning her]. That is more suitable that they should be content and not grieve and that they should be satisfied with what you have given them - all of them. And Allah knows what is in your hearts. And ever is Allah Knowing and Forbearing.

Muhammad can bonk whichever wives he like whenever he liked. Nevermind the part about being fair to each wife.

and:

66:3
And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."

66:4
If you two [wives] repent to Allah , [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.

66:5
Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah ], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.

Muhammad got caught redhanded bonking a slave in his wife's bed and yet the wives got chastised by Allah for giving Muhammad a bad time because of it.

and

33:37
And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.

Allah ordering the marriage of Zaynab to Muhammad AFTER Muhammad came upon her in her house and lusted for her.


The funniest of all is that Muhammad and his wives are long dead and gone, why are muslims still reciting verses that tells Muhammad to marry whoever he wanted, bonk whoever he fancied whenever he wanted and to marry his daughter in law?

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:08 pm
by charleslemartel
piscohot wrote:The funniest of all is that Muhammad and his wives are long dead and gone, why are muslims still reciting verses that tells Muhammad to marry whoever he wanted, bonk whoever he fancied whenever he wanted and to marry his daughter in law?


Because they want to emulate Muhammad.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:35 pm
by Eagle
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said that Allah does not test us to find out what is in our heart


It is written in the Holy Book as i showed you, i did not "say" it.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:but rather to bring out the good or evil in our heart that he knows is already there so that he can either punish or reward us.


the test is not aimed at bringing out the evil in one's heart, it is aimed at purging this evil. if the person fails the test, he will not necessarly be judged directly, and will be given opportunities to mend his ways during the time of respite and seek forgiveness.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You clearly claimed at the very beginning that he needs us to manifest what is in our hearts so that he can either reward us or punish us and that he can do neither unless we actually act upon what is in our hearts, and that is the purpose of the test.


i showed you there are thoughts that are considered sin, and others that arent unless they are expressed in action.
if one fails the opportunity of purging his heart of such potential evil in a situation, it will be a sin for which God will not necessarly judge him directly, he will be given opportunities to mend his ways during the time of respite and seek forgiveness.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:That is purposefully creating situations where evil people will be tested and where Allah already knows they will commit evil, but he merely baits them (or tests them) to act on their heart so that he officially has reason and justification to punish them in hell.


read again the examples of Abu Lahab (freewill) and Khidr (no freewill), as well as the reaction of Musa, his questions and how he was humbled:
-there are some situations where, despite God knowing the outcome, will leave a person to use his freewill
-there are some situations where God knows the outcome, and will "save" the person by not letting him use his freewill

the 2 cases are done according to Allah's wisdom and a believer, just like Musa the prophet of God, is humbled by Allah's wisdom and justice and knows that whatever He does, it is done according to His perfect attributes.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:there's no time of respite in the case of someone who Allah has sealed their heart.


the seal is not arbitrarly imposed by Allah on anyone.
it is:
-the result of specific repetitive behavior (like a drug addict who cant hear/see warnings anymore)
-attributed to Allah like all things (rain, food, cloths, ships, shadows, fire and many more things) in Quran are attributed to Him because He has created the laws of causality (such as the seal resulting from one's behavior) ruling the universe

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:19 pm
by paarsurrey
Wootah wrote:I am interested to find out what the Muslim position is, whether the weight of evidence in the Koran and Hadith suggests as you imply that the test is not whether we are good or bad but "merely to get us to act out what is in our hearts", more of a revealing process than a determining process. Or is the test really one where free will is involved and we can participate in our salvation. If you have evidence from the Koran or Hadith to support the first notion that would be fascinating.


Hi friends

I quote here from the text of Quran with the context .
[67:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[67:2] Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things;
[67:3] Who has created death and life that He might try you — which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Most Forgiving.
[67:4] Who has created seven heavens in harmony. No incongruity canst thou see in the creation of the Gracious God. Then look again: Seest thou any flaw?
[67:5] Aye, look again, and yet again, thy sight will only return unto thee confused and fatigued.
[67:6] And verily, We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and We have made them for driving away satans, and We have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.
[67:7] And for those who disbelieve in their Lord there is the punishment of Hell, and an evil resort it is!
[67:8] When they are cast therein, they will hear it roaring as it boils up
[67:9] It would almost burst with fury. Whenever a host of disbelievers is cast into it the wardens thereof will ask them, ‘Did no Warner come to you?’
[67:10] They will say, “Yea, verily, a Warner did come to us, but we treated him as a liar, and we said: ‘Allah has not revealed anything; you are but in great error.’ ”

Translation by Moulvi Sher Ali

I think it answers your query very well.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:36 pm
by Q
Wootah wrote:I am interested to find out what the Muslim position is, whether the weight of evidence in the Koran and Hadith suggests as you imply that the test is not whether we are good or bad but "merely to get us to act out what is in our hearts", more of a revealing process than a determining process. Or is the test really one where free will is involved and we can participate in our salvation. If you have evidence from the Koran or Hadith to support the first notion that would be fascinating.


.


FYI/E-Test of Prophet Adam(a.s)

Was Prophet Adam Infallible - Part 1/2 - Hajj Hassanain Rajabali | Lecture 06 Ramadhan 1430 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUj2hwEa_I


Was Prophet Adam Infallible - Part 2/2 - Hajj Hassanain Rajabali | Lecture 07 Ramadhan 1430 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bYB6pb_2s

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:09 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You said that Allah does not test us to find out what is in our heart


It is written in the Holy Book as i showed you, i did not "say" it.


Whatever. This tells me that you practice in little tiny baloney qualifications. Whether you said it or not, you posted and put it forth as your argument, so stop with the little tidbit qualifying. It's nonsense and it doesn't work

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:but rather to bring out the good or evil in our heart that he knows is already there so that he can either punish or reward us.


the test is not aimed at bringing out the evil in one's heart, it is aimed at purging this evil.


Not when he tests the person who's heart he already knows cannot be purged, right?? Remember knowing the future?? Remember the seal?? Is everybody's heart going to ne purged?? No. Is everybody going to be tested?? Yes. You're so full of it, and I'll expose you every single step of the way.

Eagle wrote:if the person fails the test, he will not necessarly be judged directly, and will be given opportunities to mend his ways during the time of respite and seek forgiveness.


Allah gives an "opportunity" for someone to mend their ways when he knows they wont?? Sounds like to me that Allah merely gives them the opportunity to fail, for if Allah knew they would fail, before he even created them, but decided to create them anyway, then clearly Allah created them to fail. You keep ignoring this but I will keep bringing it up because there is no way around this.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You clearly claimed at the very beginning that he needs us to manifest what is in our hearts so that he can either reward us or punish us and that he can do neither unless we actually act upon what is in our hearts, and that is the purpose of the test.


i showed you there are thoughts that are considered sin, and others that arent unless they are expressed in action.


That is NOT what you said in the beginning. You said they can't be punished unless their thoughts become actions. Remember, it's all in writing, and thank God because otherwise you would change your story numerous times.

Eagle wrote:if one fails the opportunity of purging his heart of such potential evil in a situation, it will be a sin for which God will not necessarly judge him directly, he will be given opportunities to mend his ways during the time of respite and seek forgiveness.


An opportunity denotes uncertainty. Allah already even knows what the person will do with the opportunity, right? You keep on switching in and out of all knowing. You say Allah is all knowing and then you keep giving ideas of a God that is not all knowing and gives us a "chance". A chance for what?? To prove God wrong?? What utter nonsense, and it simply does not work. Stay consistent.

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:That is purposefully creating situations where evil people will be tested and where Allah already knows they will commit evil, but he merely baits them (or tests them) to act on their heart so that he officially has reason and justification to punish them in hell.


read again the examples of Abu Lahab (freewill) and Khidr (no freewill), as well as the reaction of Musa, his questions and how he was humbled:
-there are some situations where, despite God knowing the outcome, will leave a person to use his freewill
-there are some situations where God knows the outcome, and will "save" the person by not letting him use his freewill


God knows they will fail, before he even creates them, so the conclusion is that if God still went ahead and created them, he created them to fail. There's no escaping that.

Eagle wrote:the 2 cases are done according to Allah's wisdom and a believer, just like Musa the prophet of God, is humbled by Allah's wisdom and justice and knows that whatever He does, it is done according to His perfect attributes.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:there's no time of respite in the case of someone who Allah has sealed their heart.

the seal is not arbitrarly imposed by Allah on anyone.


Where did i say anything about arbitrary?? Stop inventing confusing smoke screens. They don't work with me.

Eagle wrote:
it is:
-the result of specific repetitive behavior (like a drug addict who cant hear/see warnings anymore)


Right, so one injects a drug into another to make sure they can never quit drugs. That's the equivalent of the seal on the heart. It's absolute nonsense from a stupid 7th century Bedouin who couldn't even understand rudimentary philosophy.

Eagle wrote:
-attributed to Allah like all things (rain, food, cloths, ships, shadows, fire and many more things) in Quran are attributed to Him because He has created the laws of causality (such as the seal resulting from one's behavior) ruling the universe


Why does it not say that we put a seal over our hearts, but instead, clearly, and explicitly says that Allah puts it over out hearts? If what you say is true, then clearly this is what the Quran should have said. But it doesn't. It says exactly what I have claimed it says. Allah himself takes action to seal the heart. You can say that one's actions caused Allah to decide to do this (even though that was decided or known before the person was even created), but you cannot say that Allah himself does not take action to apply the seal. If you say that Allah rules over everything, and that's why it is said that Allah applies the seal, then you might as well say that Allah applied it when the person was born, because Allah knew the person's heart would be sealed and ultimately, his natural laws caused it, since he causes everything. Once again, more baloney, and it's not going to fly. People aren't stupid.

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:51 pm
by Wootah
paarsurrey wrote:
Wootah wrote:I am interested to find out what the Muslim position is, whether the weight of evidence in the Koran and Hadith suggests as you imply that the test is not whether we are good or bad but "merely to get us to act out what is in our hearts", more of a revealing process than a determining process. Or is the test really one where free will is involved and we can participate in our salvation. If you have evidence from the Koran or Hadith to support the first notion that would be fascinating.


Hi friends

I quote here from the text of Quran with the context .
[67:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[67:2] Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things;
[67:3] Who has created death and life that He might try you — which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Most Forgiving.
[67:4] Who has created seven heavens in harmony. No incongruity canst thou see in the creation of the Gracious God. Then look again: Seest thou any flaw?
[67:5] Aye, look again, and yet again, thy sight will only return unto thee confused and fatigued.
[67:6] And verily, We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and We have made them for driving away satans, and We have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.
[67:7] And for those who disbelieve in their Lord there is the punishment of Hell, and an evil resort it is!
[67:8] When they are cast therein, they will hear it roaring as it boils up
[67:9] It would almost burst with fury. Whenever a host of disbelievers is cast into it the wardens thereof will ask them, ‘Did no Warner come to you?’
[67:10] They will say, “Yea, verily, a Warner did come to us, but we treated him as a liar, and we said: ‘Allah has not revealed anything; you are but in great error.’ ”

Translation by Moulvi Sher Ali

I think it answers your query very well.

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.

Thanks


What was the answer?

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:49 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Transliteration Allathee khalaqa almawta waalhayata liyabluwakum ayyukum ahsanu AAamalan wahuwa alAAazeezu alghafooru

Literal
Who created the death/lifelessness and the life to test you which of you (is) better (in) deeds, and He is the glorious/mighty , the forgiving.

Yusuf Ali
He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-

Pickthal
Who hath created life and death that He may try you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,

Arberry
who created death and life, that He might try you which of you is fairest in works; and He is the All-mighty, the All-forgiving --

Shakir
Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,

Sarwar
It is He who has created death and life to put you to the test and see which of you is most virtuous in your deeds. He is Majestic and All-forgiving.

Khalifa
The One who created death and life for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving.

Hilali/Khan
Who has created death and life, that He may test you which of you is best in deed. And He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving;

H/K/Saheeh
[He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving

Malik
The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the All-Mighty, the All-Forgiving.

Maulana Ali Who created death and life that He might try you -- which of you is best in deeds. And He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
Free Minds The One who created death and life, that He may test you, which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
Qaribullah who created death and life that He might examine which of you is best in deeds, and He is the Almighty, the Forgiving,

George Sale Who hath created death and life, that He might prove you, which of you is most righteous in his actions: And He is mighty, and ready to forgive.

JM Rodwell Who hath created death and life to prove which of you will be most righteous in deed; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving!

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:37 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
18:11 (Y. Ali) Then We draw (a veil) over their ears, for a number of years, in the Cave, (so that they heard not):

18:12 (Y. Ali) Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried!

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:07 pm
by yeezevee
AB
A am not sure what you mean bio-cofused yekee?

Well, I said what the Quran said:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا (30)
And you do not will except that Allah wills. Indeed, Allah is Knowing, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 76:30]


I.e. you do not will except that Allah wills, possibly this is a bit hard for you kafir bio-confused dear yekee?
Yes you are always confused, what is new in that?? And correct that statement at your translation in 76:30

what the hell is this And you do not will except that Allah wills?? Or., OR CHANGE THAT WORD "WILL" TO "DESIRE"

may be it should read as
"And you do not, except that(or what) Allah wills".,

or

"And you do not have will except that Allah wills"

In other words it is saying

"You don't have free will but you are doing what Allah wills"

Will and do makes reader confused ..Will as verb and will as noun "will power"

with best
yeezevee

Re: Why does Allah test us?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:04 pm
by Eagle
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Right, so one injects a drug into another to make sure they can never quit drugs. That's the equivalent of the seal on the heart.


you are ignorant of that Quranic concept and didnt even understand the analogy. the person keeps taking drugs until his reason is affected (sealed) and can no longer prevent him from listening to the warnings of the doctor.
there are specific reasons mentionned in the Holy Book, specific behavior that cause the seal of the spiritual senses and the person can no longer listen to the calls of spiritual guidance.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Allah himself takes action to seal the heart


yes of course, just like He Himself causes all things in the universe, ie according to the laws of causality established by Him and in the case of the seal, God has decreed that if a person indulges in certain behavior his senses will be sealed by Allah. Just like Allah has decreed that if certain natural conditions are met, He will cause water to drop from the sky.
In the Quran, and that is a basic theme, all things are attributed to Allah in order to stress the fundamental principle that all things are dependant on Him and that He is the only Independant Cause.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:18:12 (Y. Ali) Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of years they had tarried!


There is no testing mentionned in that verse.

It is about Allah "yaalam", willing to make known/mark/distinguish something. Allah takes an action with the aim of causing something to come into being for it to be obvious to the world.
After a long sleep, Allah raised them in order to make known/mark/distinguish to themselves those among them who are best in understanding their unique experience. Some of them started guessing, only concerned with what had actually happened to them physically, while those deeper in their God-counsciousness relied on Allah and knew that what they were put through had a higher meaning.

The same is used in 2:143 where Allah changed the qibla in order to make known/mark/distinguish to the community the true followers from the rest, and Allah already knows what the hypocrites conceal 3:167.