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Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:06 am
by The Cat
We never read 'Christians' in the Koran but Nasara, which most probably steams from the Hebrew Notzri defining all Christians. Let's see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasorean" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not to be confused with Nazarene (sect). The Notzrim, also Nasaraioi/Nasoraean (Gk:Νασαραίοι), from Hebrew נֹצְרִים or נוצרים "sentry" or "watchmen" (those who "keep safe" the original teachings), are a sect that began around the time of Jeremiah but flourished as a Gnostic movement during the reign of the Hasmonean queen Alexandra Helene Salome among Hellenized supporters of Rome in Judea. Pliny the Elder indicates that Nasaraioi lived not far from Apamea, in Syria in a city called Bambyx, Hierapolis or Mabog. Dubourg dates Pliny's source between 30 and 20 BCE and, accounting for the lapse of time required for the installation in Syria of a sect born in Palestine, suggests the presence of a Nasoraean current around 50 BCE.

They are sometimes identified as the group called "Nazorei" by Filaster, and were certainly one of the earliest key Gnostic sects. Many of the original Nasoraeans became Christians and thus in Modern Israeli Hebrew, the term Notzrim has come to simply mean Christians. Since the Greek word Christos is the translation of Messiah or "anointed," the Hebrew word for Christians could have been Meshikhiyim (Messianics), but ever since Talmudic days, the term Notzrim was used to deny that Jesus could have been the Messiah.

It appears that the Νασαραίοι were originally composed at least partly of Jews (viz., Israeli-Samaritans) beginning long before the Christian Era, whose anti-Torah teachings may have had some gnostic leanings. The sect was apparently centered in the areas of Coele-Syria, Galilee and Samaria (essentially corresponding to the long-defunct state of Northern Israel).

The Orthodox Church Father Epiphanius writes: "there were Nasoraeans amongst the Jews before the time of Christ." They were said to have rejected temple sacrifice and the Torah, but adhered to other Jewish practice. They are described as being vegetarian. Epiphanius says it was unlawful for them to eat meat or make sacrifices. According to him they were Jews only by nationality who lived in Gilead, Basham, and the Transjordan. They revered Moses but, unlike the pro-Torah Nazoraeans, believed he had received different laws from those accredited to him.

Following the teachings of the Prophets above the Priestly rituals they are considered Minim (heretics) by the Pharisee-derived Rabbinic Judaism in the Mishnah. They were members of a non-priestly congregation that counted Jeremiah as an early leader five centuries before. Key teachings are that sacrifices were created by the priesthood to feed the Priests, and are not in accord with God's Law. E. S. Drower surmises that the Nasoraean "hatred for Jews" originated during a period in which they were in close contact with orthodox Jewry, and when the latter was able to exercise authority over them.

The famous Notzrim of the pre-Christian era (in existence during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus) included a rebellious student mentioned in the Baraitas as "Yeshu Ha-Notzri". Some fringe scholars identify this individual as the Christian Jesus of Nazareth, although the identification has been contested, as Yeshu ha-Notzri is depicted as living circa 100 BCE.
The term Nasara occurs in Q2.62,111-113, 120, 135, 140; Q5.14, 18, 51, 69, 82; Q.9.30; Q.12.17 all Medina late verses.
Only 3.67 uses the singular Nasrani. It's a verb in Arabic (NSR) meaning to help, support, assist like in 8.74, 59.12.
It has the same root as Ansar, which happens to be the Arabic wording while Nasara is rather from a Hebrew background.

''But when Jesus perceived disbelief on their part, he said: “Who are my ansar (supporters, translated disciples) in the cause of Allah?”
The companions said: “We are Allah’s ansar. We believe in Allah, and do you bear witness that we are Muslims.” (3.52)

O you who believe! Be Allah’s ansar (supporters), as Jesus son of Mary said to the companions: “Who are my ansar (supporters) in the cause of Allah?” The companions said: “We are Allah’s ansar (supporters).” Then a party of the Children of Israel believed and a party disbelieved, therefore we aided those who believed against their enemy, so they became the ones that prevailed (61.14).

Another close wording is that of Hawa'riyyun: companion, purifier. Hawari = advisor (found in 3.52-55; 61.14).
http://islamicglobalhistory.blogspot.co ... riyun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was said that they were called ‘Nasara’, because they inhabited a land called ‘An-Nasirah’ (Nazareth), as Qatadah, Ibn Juraij and Ibn Abbas were reported to have said.” (Tafseer Ibn Katheer)

The singular form of Nasara is ‘Nasrani’ and although both are used in the Qur’an, neither belongs to the Arabic language at the time of Revelation and are such older Non Arabic words. The equivalent of Nasara in the Arabic of the Qur’an is Ansar. The verb of Ansar is Nasara, which means ‘supported, aided, helped, sided with etc. Ansar likewise means ‘supporters.

The term Ansar occurs in the context of calling the true followers of Isa (AS) the Ansar of Isa (AS) on the way to Allah, which means ultimately the supporters of Allah to Whom Isa (AS), was calling and inviting to embrace Islam. The plural of Ansar being Ansarullah (Helpers of Allah), was also applied to the residents of Madina who pledged and gave support to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when he arrived in the City. (...)

It never referred to the residents of the town of Nazareth in Galilee. Christian historians add Mary’s home town [Nazareth] was then a small village situated in a high valley among the southern hills of the Lebanon Range. The name itself means ‘Watch-tower’, possibly they say because it was above the crossroads of major north-south and east-west roads. The town was not in fact then known as Nazareth and is not mentioned at all in the Old Testament, maps of the area/s or historical sources and original documents relevant to the land in general.

The word ‘Nazirite’ itself came from the Hebrew word meaning ‘separated’ or ‘consecrated’. Nazirites were themselves forbidden to cut their hair or drink alcohol. They also had to avoid all contact with dead bodies [including if it is that of their mother, father, brother or sister] so that their bodies remained pure. (...)

According to Syed Abul Ala Mawdudi, the word ‘Hawari’ means almost the same as ‘Ansar’ in the Islamic tradition. They were also called both ‘Ansar’ and ‘Muslims’ in the Qur’an and requested to be accepted as Muslims. ‘And when I (Allah) put in the hearts of the disciples (of Jesus) to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: ‘We believe and bear witness that we are Muslims.’ (Surah 5: 11).
Then again, Nasari was a gnostic term for 'Truth' and the Mandaeans used it to mean 'One Who Observes'.

And we've learned that the Ansars (Christians ?) were the one who sided with Muhammad in Medina. Pretty strange, isn't it ?

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:55 pm
by Ibn Rushd
I understand this back-projection as meaning that in the Umayyad and early Abbasid times the Christians were court officials and supporters of the Arab kingdoms. I believe this was transformed into them helping Muslims from the beginning when they arrived. I'm currently reading a scholarly article that touches a bit on this where there are a few Muslims traditions where the Ansari give their wives to the Muslims in Medina if they have two. This is an extension of the David-Bathsheba/Muhammad-Zaynab stories where desires run wild.

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:04 pm
by ygalg
Christ = Messiah

Christian = Messianic.

note that Jesus in Koran, referred Messiah.

even Jews who believe in messianic era, semantically are Christians. regardless who is the messiah. islamists also believe in the second coming of Jesus.

Nazareth writes with TS in hebrew (NoTSri) where NaZir (monk) with Z

religionists are good at, messing up semantics. don't they?

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:59 am
by The Cat
Christ = Messiah.
Christian = Messianic.

note that Jesus in Koran, referred Messiah.
Although taken as synonymous, Christos and Messiah really aren't. Messiah in the Jewish understanding is a political liberator,
while the Greek Christos infers a spiritual master, an enlightened one. As such, it's more related to the Guru notion of India.
Nazareth writes with TS in hebrew (NoTSri) where NaZir (monk) with Z

religionists are good at, messing up semantics. don't they?
We've just seen it right above. It's everywhere, like the mess between Nazareth and the Jewish sect of the Nasoraean (Gk:Νασαραίοι).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of the twelve appearances of the name in the New Testament, ten use the form Nazaret or Nazareth, and two use the form Nazara. Nazara is generally considered the earliest form of the name in Greek, and is found in Matthew 4:13 and Luke 4:16, as well as the putative Q document, which many scholars maintain preceded 70 CE and the formation of the canonical Christian gospels. The form Nazareth appears once in the Gospel of Matthew (21:11), four times in the birth chapters of the Gospel of Luke (1:26; 2:4, 39, 51), and once in the Acts of the Apostles (10:38). In the Gospel of Mark, the name appears only once in 1:9 in the form Nazaret.

One theory holds that "Nazareth" is derived from the Hebrew noun ne·tser, נֵ֫צֶר, meaning branch. Ne·tser is not the common Hebrew word for "branch," but one understood as a messianic title based on a passage in the Book of Isaiah (11.1). The negative references to Nazareth in the Gospel of John (1.45-46) suggest that ancient Jews did not connect the town's name to prophecy. Alternatively, the name may derive from the verb na·tsar, נָצַר, "to watch," possibly a reference to a nearby hill with an outstanding view (Luke 4.29).

The Arabic name for Nazareth is an-Nāṣira, and Jesus (known as يسوع‎ ‘Yaso in Arabic) is also called an-nāṣirî, reflecting the Arab tradition of according people a nisba, a name denoting from whence a person comes in either geographical or tribal terms. In the Koran, Christians are referred to as nasara, meaning "followers of the Nasiri," or "those who follow Jesus."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(title" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
The word is used to translate two related words that appear in the Greek New Testament: Nazarçne (Nazarene) and Nazôraios (Nazorean). The Greek phrases traditionally rendered as "Jesus of Nazareth" can be more literally translated "Jesus the Nazarene" or "Jesus the Nazorean." Therefore, the title Nazarene may have a religious significance. Both Nazarene and Nazorean are irregular in Greek and the additional vowel in "Nazorean" complicates any derivation from Nazareth.

The Greek New Testament uses "Nazarene" six times, while "Nazorean" is used 13 times. In the Book of Acts (24.5), "Nazorean" is used to refer to a follower of Jesus, i.e. a Christian, rather than an inhabitant of a town. "Nazarene" is the modern Hebrew word for Christian (No·tsri, נוֹצְרִי) and one of two words commonly used to mean "Christian" in Arabic (Naṣrānī, نصراني).

The issue of whether Nazarene is derived from Nazareth has been the subject of much scholarly conjecture since the 19th century. "Nazareth", in turn, may be derived from either na·tsar, נָצַר, meaning "to watch," or from ne·tser, נֵ֫צֶר, meaning branch. The Greek phrase usually translated as "Jesus of Nazareth" (iēsous o nazōraios) can be translated more literally as "Jesus the Nazorean." No one else is referred to in scripture in this way, not even other people from Nazareth. For example, the father of Jesus is iōsēph ton apo nazaret (Joseph of Nazareth).

"Nazareth" and "Nazarene" are complementary only in Greek, where they possess the "z", or voiced [aspirated] sibilant. In Semitic languages, "Nazarene" and its cognates Nazareth, Nazara, and Nazorean possess the unvoiced (unaspirated) sibilant corresponding to the "s" or "ts" sound. Voiced and unvoiced sounds follow separate linguistic pathways. The Greek forms referring to Nazareth should therefore be Nasarene, Nasoraios, and Nasareth. The additional vowel (ש) in Nazorean makes this variation more difficult to derive, although a weak Aramaic vowel in "Nazareth" has been suggested as a possible source.
Nazerini is also a term used by Pliny the Elder (Nazerinorum Tetrarchia, Natural History, book 5) to describe a people living south of Antiochus, east of Laodicae, on the river Marysas (Orontes) below the mountains known today as Jebel el Ansarriye, inhabited today by a Muslim sect called Nusairi. Looks like they were also known as the Ansayrii! There, the relation between Ansar and Nasari is geographically underlined, Antiochus being the first place were 'Christians' came in use (Acts 11.26; 26.28). We should add that, in his epistles, Paul never wrote Christians but 'adelphos' and 'adelphen'.

Here a geographical connection between Jebel el Ansarriye, the Nusairi and the Nazerini of Pliny is strangely pinpointed!

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:54 am
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:We never read 'Christians' in the Koran but Nasara, which most probably steams from the Hebrew Notzri defining all Christians. Let's see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasorean" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Not to be confused with Nazarene (sect). The Notzrim, also Nasaraioi/Nasoraean (Gk:Νασαραίοι), from Hebrew נֹצְרִים or נוצרים "sentry" or "watchmen" (those who "keep safe" the original teachings), are a sect that began around the time of Jeremiah but flourished as a Gnostic movement during the reign of the Hasmonean queen Alexandra Helene Salome among Hellenized supporters of Rome in Judea. Pliny the Elder indicates that Nasaraioi lived not far from Apamea, in Syria in a city called Bambyx, Hierapolis or Mabog. Dubourg dates Pliny's source between 30 and 20 BCE and, accounting for the lapse of time required for the installation in Syria of a sect born in Palestine, suggests the presence of a Nasoraean current around 50 BCE.

They are sometimes identified as the group called "Nazorei" by Filaster, and were certainly one of the earliest key Gnostic sects. Many of the original Nasoraeans became Christians and thus in Modern Israeli Hebrew, the term Notzrim has come to simply mean Christians. Since the Greek word Christos is the translation of Messiah or "anointed," the Hebrew word for Christians could have been Meshikhiyim (Messianics), but ever since Talmudic days, the term Notzrim was used to deny that Jesus could have been the Messiah.

It appears that the Νασαραίοι were originally composed at least partly of Jews (viz., Israeli-Samaritans) beginning long before the Christian Era, whose anti-Torah teachings may have had some gnostic leanings. The sect was apparently centered in the areas of Coele-Syria, Galilee and Samaria (essentially corresponding to the long-defunct state of Northern Israel).

The Orthodox Church Father Epiphanius writes: "there were Nasoraeans amongst the Jews before the time of Christ." They were said to have rejected temple sacrifice and the Torah, but adhered to other Jewish practice. They are described as being vegetarian. Epiphanius says it was unlawful for them to eat meat or make sacrifices. According to him they were Jews only by nationality who lived in Gilead, Basham, and the Transjordan. They revered Moses but, unlike the pro-Torah Nazoraeans, believed he had received different laws from those accredited to him.

Following the teachings of the Prophets above the Priestly rituals they are considered Minim (heretics) by the Pharisee-derived Rabbinic Judaism in the Mishnah. They were members of a non-priestly congregation that counted Jeremiah as an early leader five centuries before. Key teachings are that sacrifices were created by the priesthood to feed the Priests, and are not in accord with God's Law. E. S. Drower surmises that the Nasoraean "hatred for Jews" originated during a period in which they were in close contact with orthodox Jewry, and when the latter was able to exercise authority over them.

The famous Notzrim of the pre-Christian era (in existence during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus) included a rebellious student mentioned in the Baraitas as "Yeshu Ha-Notzri". Some fringe scholars identify this individual as the Christian Jesus of Nazareth, although the identification has been contested, as Yeshu ha-Notzri is depicted as living circa 100 BCE.
The term Nasara occurs in Q2.62,111-113, 120, 135, 140; Q5.14, 18, 51, 69, 82; Q.9.30; Q.12.17 all Medina late verses.
Only 3.67 uses the singular Nasrani. It's a verb in Arabic (NSR) meaning to help, support, assist like in 8.74, 59.12.
It has the same root as Ansar, which happens to be the Arabic wording while Nasara is rather from a Hebrew background.

''But when Jesus perceived disbelief on their part, he said: “Who are my ansar (supporters, translated disciples) in the cause of Allah?”
The companions said: “We are Allah’s ansar. We believe in Allah, and do you bear witness that we are Muslims.” (3.52)

O you who believe! Be Allah’s ansar (supporters), as Jesus son of Mary said to the companions: “Who are my ansar (supporters) in the cause of Allah?” The companions said: “We are Allah’s ansar (supporters).” Then a party of the Children of Israel believed and a party disbelieved, therefore we aided those who believed against their enemy, so they became the ones that prevailed (61.14).

Another close wording is that of Hawa'riyyun: companion, purifier. Hawari = advisor (found in 3.52-55; 61.14).
http://islamicglobalhistory.blogspot.co ... riyun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It was said that they were called ‘Nasara’, because they inhabited a land called ‘An-Nasirah’ (Nazareth), as Qatadah, Ibn Juraij and Ibn Abbas were reported to have said.” (Tafseer Ibn Katheer)

The singular form of Nasara is ‘Nasrani’ and although both are used in the Qur’an, neither belongs to the Arabic language at the time of Revelation and are such older Non Arabic words. The equivalent of Nasara in the Arabic of the Qur’an is Ansar. The verb of Ansar is Nasara, which means ‘supported, aided, helped, sided with etc. Ansar likewise means ‘supporters.

The term Ansar occurs in the context of calling the true followers of Isa (AS) the Ansar of Isa (AS) on the way to Allah, which means ultimately the supporters of Allah to Whom Isa (AS), was calling and inviting to embrace Islam. The plural of Ansar being Ansarullah (Helpers of Allah), was also applied to the residents of Madina who pledged and gave support to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when he arrived in the City. (...)

It never referred to the residents of the town of Nazareth in Galilee. Christian historians add Mary’s home town [Nazareth] was then a small village situated in a high valley among the southern hills of the Lebanon Range. The name itself means ‘Watch-tower’, possibly they say because it was above the crossroads of major north-south and east-west roads. The town was not in fact then known as Nazareth and is not mentioned at all in the Old Testament, maps of the area/s or historical sources and original documents relevant to the land in general.

The word ‘Nazirite’ itself came from the Hebrew word meaning ‘separated’ or ‘consecrated’. Nazirites were themselves forbidden to cut their hair or drink alcohol. They also had to avoid all contact with dead bodies [including if it is that of their mother, father, brother or sister] so that their bodies remained pure. (...)

According to Syed Abul Ala Mawdudi, the word ‘Hawari’ means almost the same as ‘Ansar’ in the Islamic tradition. They were also called both ‘Ansar’ and ‘Muslims’ in the Qur’an and requested to be accepted as Muslims. ‘And when I (Allah) put in the hearts of the disciples (of Jesus) to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: ‘We believe and bear witness that we are Muslims.’ (Surah 5: 11).
Then again, Nasari was a gnostic term for 'Truth' and the Mandaeans used it to mean 'One Who Observes'.

And we've learned that the Ansars (Christians ?) were the one who sided with Muhammad in Medina. Pretty strange, isn't it ?
Pussy cat, I did not know that you are that dumb

The word Nasara is different to the word Ansaar

The Nasara means Christians

The word Ansaar means Helpers


Also mister ignorant, I demolished this crap over free-minds.org more than 5 years ago, so do not intimidate me with your clear cut copy cat ignorance or I will come back lashing at you with compelling proofs from the Quran

The bottom line is this, you are 5000% wrong and you mistake is due to your clear cut ignorance

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:55 am
by AhmedBahgat
This is the problem with all those dumb ums who do not even speak a word of Arabic

for their dumb arses, all words that share the same root, they must means the same

hahahahaha

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:28 am
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:This is the problem with all those dumb ums who do not even speak a word of Arabic

for their dumb arses, all words that share the same root, they must means the same

hahahahaha
I can't believe you are still here and you still lie to yourself like you do. I know you're not stupid, so what is it that ails an otherwise intelligent person such as yourself?? The only thing I can think of is fear. How many times do you need to be clearly refuted before you see?? How many excuses can you invent for yourself?? Come on, you're a software developer and therefore you must have to have some intelligence and proper reasoning skills. You can't be this stupid, and yet you are one stupid excuse after another, and you've been doing it for years, not weeks or months. So as I always say, it can't be a genetic thing, so it must be an Islamic thing. WTF???

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:33 am
by AhmedBahgat
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:This is the problem with all those dumb ums who do not even speak a word of Arabic

for their dumb arses, all words that share the same root, they must means the same

hahahahaha
I can't believe you are still here and you still lie to yourself like you do. I know you're not stupid, so what is it that ails an otherwise intelligent person such as yourself?? The only thing I can think of is fear. How many times do you need to be clearly refuted before you see?? How many excuses can you invent for yourself?? Come on, you're a software developer and therefore you must have to have some intelligence and proper reasoning skills. You can't be this stupid, and yet you are one stupid excuse after another, and you've been doing it for years, not weeks or months. So as I always say, it can't be a genetic thing, so it must be an Islamic thing. WTF???

And I cant believe that you are still playing the same expired crap over and over and over again, don't you get sick of it you deluded lyin piece of worthless rotten flesh?

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 3:26 am
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:The word Nasara is different to the word Ansaar
The Nasara means Christians
The word Ansaar means Helpers
The guy who wrote the blog said about himself in his profile:
http://islamicglobalhistory.blogspot.co ... riyun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am a Muslim in my thirties currently working both as a lecturer and teacher at Taibah University in Medina,
Saudi Arabia and as a freelance feature writer and journalist. I am fascinated by Islamic history and Islam in
general. My other interests include etymology, paleontology and archaeology.

A teacher at Taibah University in Medina! Fascinated by history, etymology, paleontology and archaeology. Hum.....
Looks like he has more credential than you about Arabic, let alone history and etymology... So he writes (quoting):

The Hawariyun (as in 3.52, 55; 61.14)
The Quran refers to those few people who had brought faith upon Jesus, followed him, supported him and helped him as the Hawa`riyun. These were the disciples of Jesus. This name, Hawa`riyun is especially employed for those people who followed Jesus and helped him and not for the followers of any other Prophets............ The exegetes have derived it from the root word Hawr, which possess the following definitions: to whiten, to bleach, to purify, to clean, to change, to transform, to amend and to alter, etc.

Different opinions have been given by the Mufassirs as to why the followers of Isa (Jesus) were given this title: Imam Ibn Kathir (d.774/1352) has stated, "The Helpers of Jesus have been named Hawariyun because of their white clothes.” According to Ibn Kathir ‘Hawari’ in Arabic means ‘support’. Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani has stated from Sufyan Sawri that he has said, "Hawari means a helper" Qatadah (d.117/695) has said that, "It carries the definition of he who is capable of being a Caliphate (Caliph or Minister)." Yunus ibn Habib has mentioned that Hawari is a ‘sincere person’ and Ibn Al-Kalbi has defined it as meaning ‘a friend’. (...)

THE NASARA
“When Isa (AS) was sent, the Children of Israel were required to follow and obey him. The followers of Isa (AS) and his companions are called ‘An-Nasara’, because they gave aid and support to each other. They are also called ‘Ansar’, (Helpers)”. (Tafseer Ibn Katheer).......

The singular form of Nasara is ‘Nasrani’ and although both are used in the Qur’an, neither belongs to the Arabic language at the time of Revelation and are such older Non Arabic words. The equivalent of Nasara in the Arabic of the Qur’an is Ansar. The verb of Ansar is Nasara, which means ‘supported, aided, helped, sided with etc. Ansar likewise means ‘supporters. (...) The plural of Ansar being Ansarullah (Helpers of Allah), was also applied to the residents of Madina who pledged and gave support to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when he arrived in the City. (...)

However, historians add the word Nasara is not and never was derived from Nazareth, the area Isa (AS) is said to have been from. The word ‘Nazarenes’ referred to the early Christians decades after Isa (AS). It never referred to the residents of the town of Nazareth in Galilee. (...) According to Syed Abul Ala Mawdudi, the word ‘Hawari’ means almost the same as ‘Ansar’ in the Islamic tradition. They were also called both ‘Ansar’ and ‘Muslims’ in the Qur’an and requested to be accepted as Muslims. (...) Later the same people were called ‘Ebionites’. They had changed nor altered anything, their opponents chose to separate the first group of followers of Jesus, the original and first Nazarenes, with this group of Nazarenes, their successors who came a generation or more after them.
This is the problem with all those dumb ums who do not even speak a word of Arabic
for their dumb arses, all words that share the same root, they must means the same
They do share the same NSR root: Nasari has a Hebrew origin, Ansar is from Arabic. They both mean 'supporters' or 'helpers' in the Koran.
So I'm finding out... The Nasari were supporters of the Nasiri (Jesus), and of one another; the Ansars supported Allah as a rule. That's it.
Also mister ignorant, I demolished this crap over free-minds.org more than 5 years ago, so do not intimidate me with your clear cut copy cat ignorance or I will come back lashing at you with compelling proofs from the Quran
Who's trying to intimidate here? Bring your 'compelling proofs'... :whistling:

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:00 am
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:The word Nasara is different to the word Ansaar
The Nasara means Christians
The word Ansaar means Helpers
The guy who wrote the blog said about himself in his profile:
http://islamicglobalhistory.blogspot.co ... riyun.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am a Muslim in my thirties currently working both as a lecturer and teacher at Taibah University in Medina,
Saudi Arabia and as a freelance feature writer and journalist. I am fascinated by Islamic history and Islam in
general. My other interests include etymology, paleontology and archaeology.

Also mister ignorant, I demolished this crap over free-minds.org more than 5 years ago, so do not intimidate me with your clear cut copy cat ignorance or I will come back lashing at you with compelling proofs from the Quran
Who's trying to intimidate here? Bring your 'compelling proofs'... :whistling:

Liaren pussy cat, if you want to believe a confused Persian freak, go for it, on the other hand, tonight there will be a new slam dunk, you stubborn wannabe brainwashed ignorant

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:32 am
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:Liaren pussy cat, if you want to believe a confused Persian freak, go for it, on the other hand, tonight there will be a new slam dunk, you stubborn wannabe brainwashed ignorant
You're welcome. But please don't stress yourself that much.
You sound more like a drunkard than a Muslim... Or is it?

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:37 am
by AhmedBahgat
Now pussy cat, before I slam dunk you and your persian blogger, I could not find an objective of such crap!!!

I mean, can you tell me what is the outcome that the word Chsistians is not in the Quran? As well tell me what is the outcome that Nasrani is derived from the root Na Sa Ra?

Forget the chicken sh!t by that persian wahabbi freak, I need to read it in your own words, short and clear, then I will take it from there

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 6:39 am
by AhmedBahgat
The Cat wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Liaren pussy cat, if you want to believe a confused Persian freak, go for it, on the other hand, tonight there will be a new slam dunk, you stubborn wannabe brainwashed ignorant
You're welcome. But please don't stress yourself that much.
You sound more like a drunkard than a Muslim... Or is it?

Listen again pussy cat, I am never stressed, my religion taught me not to be, therefore you may find me one of the coolest

Also pinhead, I do not drink alcohol

Now answer the two questions above as I am about to go for a drive then when I come back I should find your replies to my two questions and sould trigger the start of my slam dunk show

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 8:29 am
by AhmedBahgat
Come on pussy cat, don't be afraid

I am still waiting to know what is the purpose of this copy paste carp? What is the outcome?, What is the contradiction?

Until then have fun with this:

Here is Google translate for he words Nasara (Christian):
Image

Here is Google translate for he words Ansar (Supporters):
Image

And here is Al-Ghani Arabic doctionary explaining the Arabic word (Nasara) (Christian):
Image

Nasara: Is the Plural of Nasrany, and they are the followers of the religion of Isa (PBUH)


So what is your stupid point exactly?

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:23 pm
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:Now pussy cat, before I slam dunk you and your persian blogger, I could not find an objective of such crap!!!

I mean, can you tell me what is the outcome that the word Chsistians is not in the Quran? As well tell me what is the outcome that Nasrani is derived from the root Na Sa Ra?
Frankly AB the more I deepen this topic, the more foolish you become especially as a self-proclaimed quranic expert.

You've said you'd come up with 'compelling proofs' from the Koran and yet had given none.
But even the plain Arabic language proves you wrong on this matter, of the NSR root.

For example the very proper names carrying the NSR root mean Helper, like Nasir or its feminine Nasira:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasir_(name" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Nasir, Naseer, Naser, Nasser or Nacer (Arabic: ناصر‎) is a male Arabic given name that means helper, other known
meanings include Success and Victory for "Nasser". The female form of the name is Nasira (Arabic: ناصرہ‎).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasira" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nasira is the feminine equivalent of the Arabic name "Nasir," meaning "helper".
Then again, the actual verb form of Nasara means helper, supporter, as indicated by the one you call 'a Persian Wahhabe'.
Well he's right: Conjugation of the verb naSara
http://multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic ... naSara.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Examples from Qur'aan al-Kareem. Translation by Yusuf Ali

c8:74 walladhiina aamanuu wa haajaruu wa jaahaduu fii sabiilillaahi walladhiina aawaw
wa naSaruu ulaaika humul mu’minuuna Haqqaa* lahum magfiratuw wa rizqun kariim

Meaning: Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of God as well as
those who give (them) , asylum and aid, - these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the
forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous.

(And)
59:12 lain ukhrijuu laa yakhrujuuna ma'Ahum* wa lain quutiluu laa yanSuruunahum wa lain
naSaruuhum la yuwallunnal adbaara thumma laa yunSaruun

Meaning: If they are expelled, never will they go out with them; and if they are attacked (in fight),
they will never help, them; and if they do help, them, they will turn their backs; so they will receive no help.
Once again the connection between Ansar and Nasara is projected as per the Koran!
yanSuruunahum (Ansar); NaSaruuhum (Nasara).

Debunker was right in here:
viewtopic.php?p=77176#p77176" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
''All my life, reading the Quran, I always thought that "Nasara" is simply a variation of the word "Ansar", both being derived from the root "NSR" which means to give victory to or to *support*... So Nasara to me always meant: the supporters (of Jesus Christ). In one verse, Jesus even asks: "who are my supporters in God?", the deciples answered: "we are!" And now, I see this absurdity, that Nasara is derived from some Jewish town''

And you were wrong stating in the same thread that it refers to a ''town that was name Nasarah (in Arabic)''
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives ... lications/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Had the name Nasrani/Nasara been used for the Christians in the Qur’an without any clarification, it would have been very difficult to trace back its origin and meaning. Fortunately, there are two sets of ayat, each set consisting of two ayat, when combined together the meaning of the word Nasrani/Nasara becomes absolutely clear. This is explained below. (Quoting 5.14, 82; then 3.54 and 61.14).

It is obvious, therefore, that the term Nasara was developed from an original word, presumably Aramaic, that meant Ansar in Arabic and which would also have been used in conjunction with a name of Allah to mean supporters of Allah. By the time of the Qur’An the Arabic speaking population of the Arabian Peninsula were using the words Nasrani/Nasara as a name for the Christians. But they were totally unaware of what they really meant as neither of these words were from the Arabic of the time and because their historical background was unknown. (...)

We now know that Nazarene was never derived from Nazareth. We also know that the similarity between Nazarene and Nazareth was not a mere coincidence, something that the writers of the Gospels have also noted. This leaves us with the very appealing conclusion that it is in fact Nazareth the town which acquired its name from the word “Nazarenes” and not the other way around as suggested in the New Testament.
I suggest you humbly revise your position. As it is you're adopting some Christians' errancies about Nazareth. :huh:

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:54 pm
by AhmedBahgat
Pussy cat, u and debunker and that persian wahhabi are nothing but a confused bunch of ignorant freaks

Ladder in arabic means sillim which has the root of sa la ma, same root as the word Islam, yet Islam means submission to Allah

See what is wrong with the root crap u stupid esteemed friend

Only those who don't know arabic well resort to such flawed root crap

All of u three ignorant need to dismiss ur selves

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:15 am
by AhmedBahgat
Hey pussy cat

Time to slam dunk you and your ignorant pals

You say the Arabic word نصارى Nasara which means Christians should not mean so because it has the same root ن ص ر Na Sa Ra as another Arabic word انصار Ansar which means Supporters, therefore for a dumb ignorant bum like you and your pals, the Arabic word نصارى Nasara which means Christians should not mean so, rather it should mean Supporters.

Well dumb pussy bum, as I told you in my first comment, I have demolished such non sense on the freaks web site free-minds.org, and explained to you that the root method cannot be used to understand the meaning of the words. The moment a new word is derived from any root, is the same bloody moment that the word will be totally independent from such root

I know well that your deluded ego won’t allow you to concede, as the freaks of free-minds.org did before ya, so what I am going to do is to shut your stupid mouth up by using the same source of evidence you and them used.

See dumb pussy bum, you used the Quran only to extract two different words that happened to have the same root and you want both to mean the same.

Using your own stupid and ignorant method, I am going to show your arse four different words from the Quran all having the same root, yet each one means something totally different to the other and the meaning cannot be exchanged between them:

1- The first word: سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder, its root is س ل م Sa La Ma

Quran example:

أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ ۖ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُمْ بِسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ (38)
Or do they have a ladder upon which they listen? Then let their listener come with an obvious authority.
[Al Quran ; 52:38]


2- The second word: الْمُسْلِمِينَ , Al Muslimeen , i.e. The followers of the religion of Islam (the submitters) , its root is س ل م Sa La Ma

Quran example:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ (78)
And strive to Allah with striving that is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not made upon you in the religion any blame; the faith of your father Ibrahim; he (Ibrahim) named you submitters before and in this, that the messenger may be a witness over you, and that you may be witnesses over the people; therefore stand up for prayer and pay Zakah (Alms) and be united by Allah; He is your Guardian; excellent is the Guardian and excellent is the Helper.
[Al Quran ; 22:78]


3- The third word: السَّلاَمَ , Al Salam, i.e. Greeting of peace , its root is س ل م Sa La Ma

Quran example:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ أَلْقَى إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلاَمَ لَسْتَ مُؤْمِنًا تَبْتَغُونَ عَرَضَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا فَعِندَ اللّهِ مَغَانِمُ كَثِيرَةٌ كَذَلِكَ كُنتُم مِّن قَبْلُ فَمَنَّ اللّهُ عَلَيْكُمْ فَتَبَيَّنُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا (94)
O you who have believed! If you travel in the way of Allah, then investigate; and do not say to one who offers you greeting of peace, ‘You are not a believer’, desiring the life of this world; while with Allah are many acquisitions. Like that, you were before; then Allah conferred His favours upon you, so investigate. Indeed, ever is Allah of what you do Acquainted.
[Al Quran ; 4:94]


4- The fourth word: مُّسَلَّمَةٌ , Musalamah, i.e. Delievered, its root is س ل م Sa La Ma

Quran example:

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ أَن يَقْتُلَ مُؤْمِنًا إِلاَّ خَطَئًا وَمَن قَتَلَ مُؤْمِنًا خَطَئًا فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ إِلاَّ أَن يَصَّدَّقُواْ فَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ عَدُوٍّ لَّكُمْ وَهُوَ مْؤْمِنٌ فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَاقٌ فَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ وَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةً فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ شَهْرَيْنِ مُتَتَابِعَيْنِ تَوْبَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا (92)
And it is not for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake, then freeing of a believing slave, and compensation should be delivered to his family except that they remit it for charity. And if he was from a people enemy to you and he was a believer, then freeing of a believing slave. And if he was from a people who have with you a treaty, then compensation should be delivered to his family and freeing of a believing slave. And whoever cannot find (a slave), then fasting for two consecutive months, seeking acceptance of repentance from Allah. And indeed, ever is Allah Knowing, Wise.
[Al Quran ; 4:92]

So what is the story, mister ignorant pussy cat?

Same source of evidence you used (the Quran), same language you used (Arabic) and same flawed method you used (the root method)

What seems to have gone wrong in your pinhead, dear pussy cat?

Well, possibly if I slam dunk you, you might wake up and learn properly from those who possess knowledge instead of learning from the dumb ignorant bums like you:

Image # 64

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:35 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:This is the problem with all those dumb ums who do not even speak a word of Arabic

for their dumb arses, all words that share the same root, they must means the same

hahahahaha
I can't believe you are still here and you still lie to yourself like you do. I know you're not stupid, so what is it that ails an otherwise intelligent person such as yourself?? The only thing I can think of is fear. How many times do you need to be clearly refuted before you see?? How many excuses can you invent for yourself?? Come on, you're a software developer and therefore you must have to have some intelligence and proper reasoning skills. You can't be this stupid, and yet you are one stupid excuse after another, and you've been doing it for years, not weeks or months. So as I always say, it can't be a genetic thing, so it must be an Islamic thing. WTF???

And I cant believe that you are still playing the same expired crap over and over and over again, don't you get sick of it you deluded lyin piece of worthless rotten flesh?
Show me one lie I've told. As far as same expired crap, yes same expired crap you never could answer and still can't answer, and everybody clearly sees that. You certainly are a glutton for punishment. :lol:

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:42 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote: Quran example:

أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ ۖ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُمْ بِسُلْطَانٍ مُبِينٍ (38)
Or do they have a ladder upon which they listen? Then let their listener come with an obvious authority.
[Al Quran ; 52:38]
Climbing up to the heavens with a ladder??? This is like the jinn being said to stand on each other's shoulders and pass the message down after they evesdrop and steal a message from heaven by averting being hit by a shooting stars that pursues them.

How come a software developer in the 21st century can't see how clearly ridiculous this is? Absolutely amazing. Truly the work of brainwashing. As I always say, it can't be a genetic thing, so it must be an Islamic thing. Islam really does a number on people's minds.

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:37 am
by The Cat
AhmedBahgat wrote:Hey pussy cat

Time to slam dunk you and your ignorant pals

You say the Arabic word نصارى Nasara which means Christians should not mean so because it has the same root ن ص ر Na Sa Ra as another Arabic word انصار Ansar which means Supporters, therefore for a dumb ignorant bum like you and your pals, the Arabic word نصارى Nasara which means Christians should not mean so, rather it should mean Supporters.

Well dumb pussy bum, as I told you in my first comment, I have demolished such non sense on the freaks web site free-minds.org, and explained to you that the root method cannot be used to understand the meaning of the words. The moment a new word is derived from any root, is the same bloody moment that the word will be totally independent from such root
A wording cannot be independent from its root. It's call etymology, a science you're heavily lacking!

What followed was a petty exercise in diversion, not to deal with the actual matter;
Of not being able to refute, by the Koran, that Nasara means helper, or supporter.

You see, Christian is related to the belief of Christ (as the Messiah) and the term is found 8 times,
written Masi (Masih). So the followers of Christ should have been labeled Masiy'yun or something alike.
Yet, every time that Nasara occurs it has been translated into Christians. A magnifying misnomer....

Also in those 8 ayats, the term Masi is almost always used in a derogatory meaning, like 5.75:
''The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had
passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food.''
In all this, the Koran often establish a line between the believers in the Messiah and the Nasara/Ansar.

I've visited free-minds.org and nowhere could find your ''compelling proofs''. Your affirmation must be held spurious at best :D
But I got his...
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?t ... 369.0;wap2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When the great reading talks about “the people of the book”, this doesn’t necessarily mean all Jews and Christians. In fact, the word “Christian” is never mentioned in the great reading. 5:72-73 condemns as rejecters/"kuffar" Monophysites (5:72) and Trinitarians (5:73). Both are never called Nasara.

The Nasara and Jewish sects who lived in the Lakhmid province where the great reading was revealed were not your average Trinitarian Christian or Jews. The Nasara were probably not even considered “Christians” by your average Christian. Fourth century CE Roman Christian writings such as those of Epiphanius talk about Nasara as a heretic Jewish sect. The beliefs of the Nasara fit the Nestorians or Ebionites. Although they took Jesus to be the son of god, they emphasized his humanity and rejected the Trinity. The books that the Nestorians and other marginal Jewish sects that resided in the Lakhmid provinces used were probably very different to the mainstream Jewish and Christian books, which evolved into the Bible that we have today. So when the great reading talks about the Torah and the Injeel, this doesn’t mean the Bible that we have today.
Nasara, indeed, wasn't describing Christians as a whole, but rather a very peculiar if not marginal entity.
Notice how this Nasara wording do not belong to Central Arabia at all, rather from the Syrian neighborhood...

Since you seem to be only capable of skating around nowhere, throwing mud and diversion in guise of answers. You're truly giving up.

Anyway, you're no scholar.... Inch' Allah!