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Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:09 am
by AhmedBahgat
Keep it itchy pussy cat

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:08 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:Keep it itchy pussy cat


And, for the millionth time, he is stumped again. Don't you ever get tired of continually losing??

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:04 pm
by AhmedBahgat
Keep it itchy and filthy bin lyin

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:33 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
AhmedBahgat wrote:Keep it itchy and filthy bin lyin


Why would I want to imitate your hole?

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:35 pm
by The Cat
Time for a Christmas Break......
So......

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL CHRISTIANS, ANSARS & NASARA OUT THERE !!!

Image


To ponder: Christmas Spirit and Islam (by Amil Amani, main site)
http://www.faithfreedom.org/islam/chris ... -and-islam


Then, in a few days, we will have a look as to where those Nasara lead us. :turban:

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:40 pm
by AhmedBahgat
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Keep it itchy and filthy bin lyin


Why would I want to imitate your hole?



Because my hole is one way out, and your hole is a wide carriage way in and out, I am sure you charge tolls too

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:23 pm
by The Cat
Who Were the Ansaars?
From the Arabic root NSR, such as surah 110, an-nasr (to succour, to help).

The changing concept of nasr between Mecca and Medina verses in the Quran (excerpts)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=f259Zob ... rb&f=false
To understand the significance of the Medina concept of the believers helping God we should first recall that nasar, the relevant Arabic verb, sometimes translated 'to give victory'..., is often used in Meccan passages which speak of God helping (or giving victory to) his messengers and their followers against their unbelieving opponents (e.g. 21.77; 37.116; 23.26, 39; 29.30; 30.47; 6.34). It is important to note that in Meccan passages God alone is the subject of the word nasara (...) his nasr, is his action alone, unmediated by any other being. (...)

In Medinan passages we continue to hear of God 'helping' the believers, and the idea is now linked to the believers battles (3.123 -Badr and 9.25 -Hunayn). What is new at Medina, however, is the God is no longer the only agent of nasr. Instead of the Meccan scenario of nasr coming in one direction from God to the believers there is now the possibility of reciprocity, with nasr working in both directions: 'O believers, if you help God, he will help you (44.7`cf 22.40). Elsewhere believers are exhorted to be 'God's helpers' -ansar. (61.14; cf. 3.52; 57.25, 59.8; 9.40).
Once again we see that the wording Nasara and Ansaar are synonymous, the latter simply the Arabic form of the former.

We find that in Islamic history they sheltered, fed and helped Muhammad & his companions in Medina,
in a time when the Prophet faced oblivion. For this, they were rewarded with sweet nothings from him!
http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=6&chapter=47
The leader of the Ansaar, Sa'd Ibn `Ubaadah to Muhammad: O Messenger of Allah, this group of the Ansaar are displeased with what you did with the spoils of war. You have distributed war booty among your people and were most generous to the Arab tribes, but you did not give the Ansaar anything." (...) Sa'd was one of the Companions whom the Qur'aan described as "merciful among themselves." He traveled to Syria. Shortly after he had settled in the Hauran plateau, he died and went back to the Lord the Most Merciful.

http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/53.htm
SAAD IBN UBADA WAS THE LEADER OF THE KHAZRAJ TRIBE OF MEDINA. The Khazraj and the Aus, the two tribes of the Ansar, had distinguished themselves by their services to Islam. Their services were acknowledged even by Abu Bakr when he was bickering and dickering with them in Saqifa. In the battles of Islam, the Ansar were invariably in the forefront. They fought against the combined might of all the idolaters of Arabia. Abu Qatada, an Ansari, claimed with truth that no tribe in all Arabia had produced more martyrs for Islam than the Ansar. More Ansaris were killed in defending Islam than men of any other tribe. (...)

Saad refused to take the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr. Three years later, he left Medina, went to Syria and settled there. He was in Syria when he was hit by an arrow shot by some unknown person, and he thus died in mysterious circumstances. Saad ibn Ubada was the first and the last Ansari ever to become a candidate for khilafat. He didn't become a khalifa. In Saqifa, the door of khilafat was slammed in the face of the Ansar, and they were shut out for all time.

Both account tell us that Sa'ad Ibn Ubada moved to Syria just to be killed.
For sure he didn't move all alone but was followed by much of his tribe...

Thanks in part to Pliny the Elder we can find them back as nowadays Nusairis (NSR), also known as the Ansayrii...
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/NEW_NUM/N ... ayrii.html
Nosairis (also known as Ansayrii, sometimes Ansariyeh)
The people who inhabit the mountainous country of N. Syria, which is bounded on the S. by the North end of the Lebanon at the Nahr el-Kebir (Eleutherus), on the N. by Mt Casius, Antioch and the Nahr el-Asi (Orontes). Various settlements of them are found also in Antioch itself and in Tarsus, Adana, and a few other places. (...) It is, however, noteworthy that Pliny (Hist. Nat. V, 81) gives the name Nazerini to the inhabitants of this district. (...) In the 7th century the Arabs invaded Syria, but do not seem to have got into these mountains...........

The religion of the Nosairis seems to have been almost the same in the first years of the 11th century as it is today, judging by the references in the sacred book of the Druses. As set forth in their own sacred book, the Majmu', it seems to be a syncretism of Isma'ilite doctrines and the ancient heathenism of Harran.

Some scholars referred them to the medieval sect of the 'Assassins', many think of them as being part of the Shias.
But we need to be careful about labels since they used dissimulations in order to be protected as 'People of the Book.'
They do are related to the Sabians, Mandaeans, Druzes, some Nestorian beliefs, and those mysterious... Nasarenes.

We will look further unto those groups, but we must forget everything we commonly know or assume...
We'll be entering the field of gnosticism: a world of abstractions & symbols from the Chaldeans' realm!

The Ansaar tribe mentioned in Sahih Bukhari (V.5, B.58, 120 and on)
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display ... anslator=1

In the meantime, a warning to ponder: The West As The New Ansaars!
http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/mumi ... 271205.htm

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:51 am
by The Cat
Who Were the Ansars? -2
I found a lot more on them... This thing is pretty mind blowing!

Anshar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anshar
In Akkadian mythology, Anshar (also spelled Anshur), which means "sky pivot" or "sky axle", is a sky god.(...)
During the reign of Sargon II, Assyrians started to identify Anshar with their Assur in order to let him star
in their version of Enuma Elish. In this mythology Anshar's spouse was Ninlil. If this name /Anڑar/ be derived
from */Anœar/, then is may be relatable to hieroglyphic Egyptian /NṬR/ 'god', since hieroglyphic Egyptian /Ṭ/
may be etymological */Œ/. (Note: it's not that far then from Ausar, the Egyptian name of Osiris (Greek).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assur
At a late date it appears in Assyrian literature in the forms An-sar, An-sar (ki), which form was presumably read Assur.
(...) In the Creation tablet, the heavens personified collectively were indicated by this term An-sar, "host of heaven,"
in contradistinction to the earth, Ki-sar, "host of earth." In view of this fact, it seems highly probable that the late
writing An-sar for Assur was a more or less conscious attempt on the part of the Assyrian scribes to identify the
peculiarly Assyrian deity Asur with the Creation deity An-sar......

Anshar, standing on a bull. Very Persian depiction (with a Farvahar, but this is Assyrian)
Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_(military)
Anṣâr (Arabic: الأنصار‎, meaning aiders, or patrons) refer to a class of warriors who are renowned for their arsenal of weapons and for their speed and mobility on the battlefield. The quality of the Arabian horses quickly led to these soldiers dominating the battlefield, making ample use of their array of weaponry, which consisted of javelins, a sword, and bow and arrows. The one military unit that was present in nearly all of the Arabic expansion of the 7th to 9th centuries was the Anṣâr Warrior. These warriors participated as infantry, but most commonly rode on horseback and were famed to be the greatest horsemen/infantry of their time.

The Muslim inhabitants of Medina who welcomed Muhammad and the other Meccan Muslims when they migrated to Medina from Mecca (in an event known as the Hijra) are also known as Anṣâr. The Sahabas, or companions of Muhammad, are divided into two categories; of Muhajirun, people who fled from Mecca; and the Anṣâr, those who welcomed and took in the Muhajirun. The Anṣâr are vital to Islamic history because they took the fledgling Muslim community in and joined it themselves, turning Islam into a city-state power. In Medina, each Anṣâr family took in a member of the Muhajirun and offered them a place to stay and protection.

Known for their piety and courage, some famous Anṣârs are Muath bin Jabal Al-anṣâri and Sa'ad bin Ubaadah, Sa'ad's great great grandchildren were the Nasrids kings of Granada in Spain from the 13th century to the 15th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27d_ibn_Ubadah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_ple ... _al-Aqabah

So, the Ansars were a military elite that we find back in Granada, ruling Andalusia between 1238-1492.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Khazraj
In 1228 Ibn Alahmar gathered the remains of the Muslim population cornered in Granada and established Almamlika Alnasria derived from the Ansar of Mecca whom he claimed direct lineage to the Nasrids. With the Reconquista in full swing after the conquest of Cordoba in 1236, the Nasrids aligned themselves with Ferdinand III of Castile, officially becoming a tributary state in 1238. The state officially becoming the Kingdom of Granada in 1238. The Nasrids had to turn their backs against the Muslims of Cordoba and Seville in order to survive the reconquest.

The Nasrid (NSR) Dynasty of Spain
Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrid_dynasty
The Nasrid dynasty or Banuu Nasri (Arabic: بنو نصر‎) was the last Arab and Muslim dynasty in Spain. The Nasrid dynasty rose to power after the defeat of the Almohad dynasty in 1212 at the Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa. Twenty-three different emirs ruled Granada from the founding of the dynasty in 1232 by Muhammed I ibn Nasr until January 2, 1492, when Muhammad XII surrendered to the Christian Spanish kingdoms of Aragon and Castile. Today, the most visible evidence of the Nasrids is the Alhambra palace complex built under their rule.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhambra

We find the Nasrini (written so in Q.3.67) linked to the Nazarenes in... India.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani
The Syrian Malabar Nasrani people, also known as Saint Thomas Christians and Nasranis are an ethnoreligious group from Kerala, India, adhering to the various churches of the Saint Thomas Christian tradition. They are also known as Syrian-Malabar Christians, Suriyani Christiaanikal, Mar Thoma Nasrani, or more popularly as Syrian Christians (...).

The Syrian Malabar Nasranis are the descendants of the natives and those of the Jewish diaspora in Kerala who became Christians in the Malabar Coast in the earliest days of Christianity. The possibility of the early converts being partially from the ten Lost Tribes of Northern Kingdom of ancient Israel can not also be ruled out. (...) It has been suggested that the term Nasrani derives from the name Nazarenes used by ancient Jewish Christians in the Near-East who believed in the divinity of Jesus but clung to many of the Mosaic ceremonies. They follow a unique Hebrew-Syriac Christian tradition which includes several Jewish elements although they have absorbed some Hindu customs. Their heritage is Syriac-Keralite, their culture South Indian with semitic and local influences, their faith St. Thomas Christian, and their language Malayalam. Much of their Jewish tradition has been forgotten, especially after the Portuguese invasion of Kerala in the early 1500s.

Nasrani Mapilla
Syrian Malabar Nasranis are also called Nasrani Mapillas. According to Hermann Gundert (who wrote the first Malayalam dictionary), the term 'mapilla' was a title used to denote semitic immigrants from West Asia. Thus the term Mapilla was used to denote both Arab and Christian-Jewish descendants and followers in Kerala. The descendants of Arabs are called Muslim Mappila, the descendants of Syrian-Jewish Christians are called Nasrani Mappilas, and the descendants of the Cochin Jews who have traditionally followed Halakhic Judaism are known as Juda Mappila. (...)

The term Syrian-Malabar Nasrani therefore means people of Christian-Jewish tradition and descent who follow Jesus of Nazareth and are from the Malabar coast of South India. The Tamil epic of Manimekkalai written between 2nd and 3rd century CE of Sangam Literature era mentions the Nasrani people by the name Essanis referring to one of the early sects within the Nasranis called Essenes. (...)

The term Nasrani was used essentially to denote Jewish followers of Jesus from Nazareth, while the term Khristianos "Christian" was initially used largely to refer to non-Jewish peoples ("gentiles") who followed the Christ (Acts 11:26). Until the advent of the Portuguese in the 1500s, the proto-Jewish-Nasrani ethos in Kerala thrived with Jewish customs and the Syrian-Persian tradition.

They preserved the original rituals of the early Jewish Christians, such as covering their heads while in worship. Their ritual services (liturgy) was and still is called the Qurbana (also spelled Kurbana), which is derived from the Hebrew Korban (קרבן), meaning "Sacrifice". Their ritual service used to be held on Saturdays in the tradition of the Jewish Sabbath. The Nasrani Qurbana used to be sung in the Suryani (Syriac) and Aramaic languages.


A mind blowing anthropological goldmine is given to us. I'm thrilled!
Nasrani (Q.3.67), Nazarenes and Essenes like in a package deal.

btw, Surya was the ancient name of Syria, which is close to 'surah'!

Next, we will come back to the Nusairis (Arabic Nusariyah), also named Ansariyah...
Nusariyah/Ansariyah: NSR! (a town in Iraq, another in Syria are called An-Nasiriyah)

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:23 pm
by The Cat
The Nusariyah (Arabic for Nusairis) also known as Ansariyah and more recently, the Alawites.

The Latin quote from Pliny the Elder (NH, b5, 81):
Nunc interiora dicantur. Coele habet Apameam Marysa amne divisam a Nazerinorum tetrachia,
bambycen quae alio nomino Hierapolis vocatur, Syris vero Mabog.

The area is now inhabited by the Nusairis, or Ansariye a name of the montaneous region (Gebel Anseriya, Jabal al)
which protected their isolation. Many scholars have to agree that they must be the continuum of the Nazerini mentioned
by Pliny the Elder. Furthermore, we have the Nasaraioi of Epiphanus, the Nazorei of Filiaster and the Galileans of Sozomen
situated exactly in the same erea. The sentence of Pliny refers us to a time about 50BCE.

James Hastings, Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (excerpts, comments in italics)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=K1QaHFb ... ri&f=false
The Nusairis, also know as Ansariyah, are not only a sect but a nation, inhabiting the montainous country north of Lebanon. The name has given rise to a great many theories: it has been thought to be a diminutive of the Arab nasrani (little Christian) but the etymology is contrary to Arabic grammar. (NOTE: It's from the Arabic verb nasr -to help- as in surah 110, and the etymology is from Hebrew rather than Arabic as we've seen before)....

As (René) Dussaud abundantly proves, the Nusairis of our day are the Nazerini mentioned by Pliny the Elder (HN, V.81) as forming a tetrachy separated from Apamea by the river Marsyas (Orontes). The Greek historian Sozomen (HE.7.15) shows them at the end of the 4th cent. helping the pagans of Aramea against the Christians; he gives them the name of Galileans.... (Note: Galileans were still the Christians up to the scholarly emperor Julian).

The Nusairis, being isolated, preserved their paganism in spite of the triumph of Christianity, and later of Islam, in the surrounding country. Nevertheless it is certain that the contact of these two religions was not without influence upon the Nusairi beliefs. The greatest influence, however, was exercised by the Isma'ilis who were forced in the 12th century to leave their ephemeral dwelling-place in Banias and settle in the Jebel, where they became famous under the name of Assassins (Note: they were also known as the Nizari, see:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismailism

The religion of the Nusairis, therefore, is the ancient pagan religion of the district, very much altered by Christian, Muslim, and especially Isma'ilian influences, but not reaching the stage of Christianity and Islam. The groundwork of their doctrines is contained in the kitab al Majmu, published and translated by Dussaud (Histoire et Religion des Nosairis, Paris 1900). Like the Isma'ilis, they divide time into seven cycles, each having its own manifestation of deity; this resembles the doctrine of the pagan Harranians. according to which the creator was single in his essence but multiple in his manifestations in bodies, and these bodies wore the seven p^lanets which govern the world. The Isma'ilis and the Druzes hold that a prophet appears in each entrusted with a new religion. With the Nusairis the asars (Abel, Seth, Joseph, Joshua, Asaph, Peter -Shema'un, and 'Ali) are superior to the nâtiqs (Adam, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Solomon, Jesus and Muhammed).

Dussaud ingeniuously conjectures that there is a confusion between 'Ali el A'la and the epithet of the old Phoenician deity Elyun (Ugarit, Aliyin; Biblical El-Elyon, quranic -83.18-20- Illiyin) whom the Greeks called Adonis. 'Ali created Muhammed, whom he called his 'name' (word, Isa). Muhammad in his turn created Salman al-Farist from the light of his light, made him his 'gate' (Bab, as in Babylon). These three persons form a triad, which seems more ancient than the Christian Trinity, and which goes back to the divine triads of the Syro-Phoenician cults and in particular the Palmyrene triad Ali = Sky (Ba'al Shamain, Helios), Muhammad = Sun (Malak Bel, Marduk), and Salman = moon (Aglibol). In the initiation ceremonies this triad is represented by the mystery of 'Ain-Mim-Sin'.

Salman al-Farist is also known as Salman the Persian, a saint and a mystic to many Muslims, especially Sufis;
who, according to Abul Kasem, wrote down the quranic ayats related to Zoroastrianism (ex. Hell/Heaven notions).
http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/kase ... rigin3.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_the_Persian
...one of Muhajirun stated "Salman is one of us, Muhajireen", but was challenged by the Muslims of Medina known in Arabic as the Ansar. A lively argument began between the two groups, each of them claiming that Salman belonged to their group, and not to the other group. Muhammad arrived on the scene, and heard the argument. He was amused by the claims but he soon put an end to their argument by saying: "Salman is neither Muhajir nor Ansar. He is one of us. He is one of the People of the House, ahl al-Bayt."...(extended yet direct family)


Clearly, for the sake of survival, they've hidden their true beliefs and mixed them with Islamic terminology.
This is mandatory, for all gnostic sects, to preserved their sacred knowledge from the peasantry and fools.

The Phoenician Elyun is related to the god of Melkisedech (El-Elyon), then to Jesus-Christ through the Hebrew Gospel.
It is said ''Ali (Illiyin, Aliyin) created Muhammed, whom he called his 'name' (word, Isa)''. That could be another lead... !
Now is this 'Ain-Mim-Sin' a clue to understand the origin of the Quranic Alif-Lam-Mim? Could it be with numbered mystery?

Aglibôl (moon), Beelshamên (sky), and Malakbêl (sun), a 1st century Palmyra's triad (or Trinity).
Image

http://i-cias.com/e.o/nusayris.htm
Nusayris (also known as the Ansarriyya or Namiriya). Arabic: Nusayriyya
Religious ideology, or theoretical system, which usually is defined as a branch of Shi'i Islam.
This definition relates, unfortunately to the work of distant-located Western scholars. Newer works have brought forth much information suggesting that the Nusayris must be described by more complex definitions. The placing of Nusayris within the confines of Islam is part of taqiyyism. The origins of the term Nusayri may clarify the content of the system. The Arabic word is close to the term for Christians, nasraniyy, the roots beeing respectively "n-s-r" and "n-s-r-n". Hence it has been suggested that the nusayris have relations to Christianity.

I think they do, BUT in a gnostic sense, with some Nestorian external compounds.

Their name of 'Alawi' is more recent and related to the Shia influence over them, yet it's a misnomer...
http://www.angelfire.com/az/rescon/mgcalawi.html
Their religion is secret and seems to be a syncretistic mixture of extreme Shi'a (Ghulat), ancient pagan, gnostic and Christian elements. They are sometimes classified as a branch of Twelver Shi'ism, but are actually an independent religion. They do not keep the five pillars of Islam, and they have no mosques but meet in private houses for their religious observances. Their festivals include Persian and Christian holidays. They have a ceremony similar to the Christian mass and believe in a trinitarian manifestation of God. (...)

Many of the Byzantines and Persians who turned to Islam after the Arab conquest, strongly resented the Arab dominance under which they were relegated to second class status. It was their effort to stress their cultural superiority over the Arabs that led them to accept Shi'a and extreme Shi'a (as well as Sufi) teaching, mixing it with their own ancient religious and philosophical systems. This was their "revenge" for the imposition of Arab rule upon them, and in this way they managed to change Islam into their own mold.


Next, we will get into the Nasarenes. We own to the Greek transpositions a lot of etymological errors.
The Greek language being arguably the worst possible Indo-Aryan language to translate Semitic words.

One thing I've discovered is that the Nasarenes weren't a sect at all but rather a title, a supreme rank amongst -them all-!
They were the true keepers of the united gnostic sacred knowledge and as such could be Ebionites, Mandaeans or whatever!

More to come, as I'll end this topic, which could ultimately be condensed in Resource center.

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:06 am
by The Cat
Who Were the Nasoreans?
As I've stated above, they were more of a rank within gnosticism than a sect by itself.

Mandeans, Nasoraeans, Sabians
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10705a.htm
Mandזan (mndaya) is a Babylonian-Aramaic word in dialectic form, meaning: Gnostics, gnostikoם, "those who are good at knowing". The Hebrew for knowledge md‘ Madda is of the same root and is the noun from which the adjective Mandaya is derived. It is the name adopted by the sect itself, being employed in their sacred books, and is characteristic of their worship of the mnds dhya gnפsis tךs doךs or "knowledge of life". Another name also found in their sacred books is that of Sabians (sbya) which means Baptists (sb‘ to baptize in Syriac and Aramaic). This name is known to the Mohammedans (sing. Sabia, pl. fr. Subג’u) from the Koran (Sure V, 73; II, 59; XXII, 17) in which Christians, Savians, and Jews are enumerated as religions which can be tolerated by Islam. It is based on the prominence of frequent baptism in their religious discipline and hence they are no doubt referred to by the Fathers as Hemerobaptists ‘emerobaptםstai i.e. practising daily baptism. The name Soubaםoi was even known in Greek writers. The name, however, most frequently used in their sacred literature is that of Nasoreans, naswraya which is also the usual Arabic (sing. Nasrani, pl. Nasגra) for Christians. The coincidence is striking......
Indeed, the coincidence is striking, let's see furthermore...

In the Haran Gawaitha (7th century) we've got a profile of Muhammad and of the Nasoreans.
http://www.gnosis.org/library/haran.htm (the first quote is later in the text, but talks about Muhammad)
I will tell you, (O ye ) priests who live in the Arab age, (of that which occurred) before the Son-of-Slaughter, the Arab, went out and prophesied as a prophet in the world so that they performed circumcision like Jews and changed sayings - for he is the most degraded of false prophets. Mars accompanieth him because he is the Seal of prophets of the Lie, (although) the Messiah will appear after him at the end of the age! I will inform you, Nasoraeans, that before the Son-of-Slaughter, the Arab, emerged and was called prophet in the world and Mars descended with him, he drew the sword and converted people to himself by the sword. (......)

Haran Gawaita receiveth him and that city in which there were Nasoraeans, because there was no road for the Jewish rulers. Over them was King Ardban . And sixty thousand Nasoraeans abandoned the Sign of the Seven and entered the Median hills, a place where we were free from domination by all other races. And they built cult-huts (bimandia) and abode in the Call of the Life and in the strength of the high King of Light until they came to their end. And they loved the Lord, that is, Adonai , until in the House of Israel there was created something which was not placed in the womb of Mary, a daughter of Moses. It was hidden in her womb for nine months and bewitched her until the nine months were fulfilled and she was in labour and brought forth a messiah. (...)

... and from Nisrat (Nazareth), a city of the Jews, which is called the city of Qum ...... because it is a shrine; for Mercury founded a community in Qum, and Saturn founded a community in Sinai... ... (Jews were settled) in the Arab region which is called Basra, which is (also) called Sufat-Zaba ...

If Nisrat is to be equated with the city of Qum (Qum'ran) then we can hold our breath! That would be a major blast... The text also talks about the Nasurai of Jerusalem, and we know that there was an important Essene quarter in the city from Philo. Could be that Nisrat was the name for it. Still Nazareth is nowhere in sight of the truth, so...

It is said that the Nasoreans abandonned the Sign of the Seven to enter the Median hills (Persia). Adonai is so associated with the king of light. The Sign of the Seven I think is simply the harmonious rainbow made of seven colors. Some scholars say they were the Noachide 7 rules, or the seven spheres. But I so think because, according to Gen.9.13, the Sign of the Covenant (kept by the Nasoreans) was a rainbow, the sign of renewed alliance. The Chaldeans thought of Christianity as of Mercury, of Judaism as from Saturn and of Islam begotten by Mars. It told them everything they needed to know...

It is also noteworthy that the Nasoreans were those who know the 'Nasirutha' or secret knowledge.
Mandaeans was a name for the commoners, but the Nasoreans were above even their priestly class.
http://www.egnu.org/~mandaean/The_Secre ... Drower.pdf
Those amongst the community who possess secret knowledge are called Nasuraiia-Nasoraeans (or, if the heavy ‘s’ is written as ‘z’, Nazorenes). At the same time the ignorant or semi-ignorant laity are called ‘Mandaeans’, Mmduiia-‘gnostics’. When a man becomes a priest he leaves ‘Mandaeanism’ and enters tumidutu, ‘priesthood‘. Even then he has not attained to true enlightenment, for this, called ‘Nasirutha’, is reserved for a very few. Those possessed of its secrets may call themselves Nasoraeans, and ‘Nasoraean’ today indicates not only one who observes strictly all rules of ritual purity, but one who understands the secret doctrine.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes (which Epiphanius spelled Issaenes (Isa is the Arabic for Jesus!).
The Church Father Epiphanius (writing in the fourth century CE) seems to make a distinction between two main groups within the Essenes:... Epiphanius describes each group as following: ''The Nazarean – they were Jews by nationality – originally from Gileaditis, Bashanitis and the Transjordon… They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws – not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers. This was the difference between the Nazarean and the others…

''After this [Nazarean] sect in turn comes another closely connected with them, called the Ossaeans. These are Jews like the former… originally came from Nabataea, Ituraea, Moabitis and Arielis, the lands beyond the basin of what sacred scripture called the Salt Sea… Though it is different from the other six of these seven sects, it causes schism only by forbidding the books of Moses like the Nazarean.


http://www.christianorigins.com/mead/ch17.html
...it is by no means improbable that the name Issaei was not original with Epiphanius, for Abbot Nilus, the renowned ascetic of Sinai, who had previously enjoyed a high reputation at Constantinople, and retired to one of the famous monasteries of the mysterious region of Sinai and Serbal in 390, and died in 430, speaks of the Issaei and says that they were the Jewish philosophers and ascetics who were originally followers of the Rechabite Jonadab. (...)

We are, therefore, confronted with this dilemma; either Christianity existed before Christ, or the canonical dates are wrong. From this dilemma there seems to me to be no escape. Having, then, claimed the Essaeans of Philo as early Christians, and having, as most assume, though perhaps erroneously, changed their name to Jessaeans apparently to clinch the matter, Epiphanius finds himself involved in a very great difficulty. What Philo tells us of the contemplative Essaeans or Therapeuts is so similar to what the Christians conceived their earliest communities to have been, that the identification of the one with the other amounted for them to a certainty. On the other hand, Epiphanius knows from Philo and other sources that there were many things in which the Essaei differed from not only the Nicene Christianity of his day, but from any type of Christianity in canonical tradition. Moreover, the Essaeans were still in existence, and had their own traditions, as we shall see later on, and Epiphanius knows something of the various "heresies" which still represented some of their teachings. The difficulty, therefore, which faced him was that these Essaeans were not Christians in any Nicene sense.

Those Issaeis (which Philo spelled Iessaeoi) were likely the ones who left Jerusalem for Pella in 70ad.

Next, we'll close the topic with more observations about the NSR root.

From what I gathered the Arabic sense is not Jewish at all, but rather from Assyrian!
So is the root for al-Ilah (Allah), straight from the Assyrian Ilu-Ilanu, or Enlil (the Sumerian dumb god) :D

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:04 pm
by The Cat
The Akkadian & Assyrian roots of NSR.
The Arabic NSR (verb nasr, Ansar/Nasara) lead us to the Assyrian Epic of Gilgamesh...
In it their god Ashur is transformed into Anshar, the Helper and Redeemer.
It leads to Mount Nasir, the Salvation mount, where the Assyrian Noah landed.
The Quran 11.14 talks about Mount Judi (Cudi for Kurds is more usual).

http://www.ancientworldfoundation.org/r ... orcudi.htm
The opinion of Professor Hilprecht in 1910 was that Jebel Judi was the correct mountain. It was called Mt. Nisir in the time of King Ashurbanipal (883-859bce) and later designated Mt. Nipir (Nipur) by King Sennacherib who wrote that the villages on it were "from days of old." He took a plank from the Ark back to Nineveh. Berossus in the 3rd Century BC wrote that part of the ship still survived in his day and people would carry off pieces of pitch as amulets. Nicholas of Damascus also makes the same point that the remains were a great while preserved. These ancient observations argue for a low altitude under 10,000 feet.

The story of the monk St. Jacob of Nisibis who climbed the mountain of Noah in the 4th Century and obtained a piece of Ark wood from allegedly an angel tends to confirm Mt. Cudi as the true site since Nisibis is close to it. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in the 4th Century wrote that the site at the mountain of the Gordynenns as described by Berossus still had "remains of Noah's Ark" which means they were available for viewing, hence at a lower altitude not always snow covered.

Abbot Aphni-MARAN of the Nestorian Church built a monastery on the mountains of Kardo, Gebel Al-Cudi about 625 A.D. which was probably a memorial to Noah on the top of Mt. Cudi. Eutychius, Bishop of Alexandria in the 9th Century wrote that "the Ark rested on the mountains of Urartu, that is Jabal Judi near Mosul." The historian Elmacin recorded in the 13th Century that in the 7th Century the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius had climbed Jabal Judi in order to see the place where the Ark had landed.

The historian Benjamin of Tudela in the 12th Century wrote that "I traveled two days to Jezireh BenOmar (modern Cizre), an island in the Tigris, at the foot of Mt. Ararat...on which the Ark of Noah rested. Omar Ben al-Khatab removed the Ark from the summit of the two mountains and made a mosque of it." Here Cudi is obviously meant but termed Ararat, a designation that has led to much error. (...) The name CUDI seems, to be a paleo-Hebrew word YE-Hudah meaning May God Be Praised. When Noah landed after his long voyage he probably said, "Praise God" and the term was applied to the mountain.


This mount is situated about a hundred miles northwest of Mosul, near the ancient Nineveh, upper Tigris river where Syria,
Turkey and Iraq meet. Still the seat of a Chaldean archdiocese. Mount Ararat is actually 300 miles further north.
There were nearby archaeological researches (from 1982) in an ancient place called Tell Muhammed Arab!
Mount Cudi, east of Urfa and Haran, south of lake Van, north of Mosul (Nineveh). Ancient Hurriah & Mitanni.
Image
I should add that Mosul, sharing the consonant etymology, is too close to Muslim for comfort. In Arabic, Muslim
means 'one who submitted' but MOSLEM (pronounced like a 'z'.) rather means 'one who is evil and unjust'' !
Image

The Assyrian Epic of Gilgamesh also talks about Mount Mashu, etymologically related to the Arabic Masih (Messiah).
It's the place that Gilgamesh has to reach, at the edge of the world, to obtain immortality (or salvation from death).

Shamash in between the twin peak of Mount Mashu,
those peaks symbolized the rising and setting sun...
Image

http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/Slide1.htm
All of the pertinent evidence for Noah's ark and his post flood city "Mesha," (later called Naxuan), is found on this mountain, named anciently "Cordu," (which means "Mountain of the Kurds" ). It is also called, by the local Kurds, "Mashu-r," an ancient name of the ark mountain found in Akkadian-Babylonian flood story, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" ( "Mount Mashu" ) and as known as "Mesha" in Genesis 10:30, a beginning place from which Noah's Shemetic sons of Yocktan are said to have dwelt. In Shemetic both words are spelled msh, so logically then, they are the same place. The town of Uzengili was once called Nasar, before 1948 when the ark appeared. This name was the precise Akkadian - Babylonian name for Noah's town and mountain NSR supposedly pronounced "Nisir," as best the philologists can recover the exact phonetic sound. This ancient name for the village just adjacent to the ark is a critical point in the identification of the site. Ancient writers called this second town (city) " when people began to move away form Naxuan....Seron." Seron became Nasar in reality, and this city has also been identified by the present author. (...)

It is important to note that Seron was called "Nisir" by the Babylonians "Mt. Nisir" being the mountain of the ark landing. In 1948 the village next to the ark had a name change, from "Nasar" (which in Shemitic languages amounts to the same thing) to "Uzengili," meaning "it belongs to Uzengil." Uzengil is an Arabic mythic giant, whose image the local Kurds saw in the ship.

Looks like the curious quranic depiction of Alexander also comes from this Epic...
Nabonidus stayed in Teyma, Arabia, for about 10 years. He certainly had a deep influence therein!

Should we then label the Quran as The Epic of Muhammad? That is largely mythical... :turban:


Appendix:
In Akkadian, Kur-Nisir means a land, a region, likely mountainous.
We also have the term Nisurtu which means concealed, hidden.

A phase in the Sumerian development is called Jemder-nasr (3200-2900bce)
It roughly corresponds with the invasion of the Gutians from the nearby hills.
And the term nasr must refers to this mythical salvation history of Ziusudra.

We also have many Akkadian or Assyrian kings with nasir embolded in their names. It meant 'protector' or 'guardian'.
We so have Enlil-Nasir I & II (1479-1414bce), and the brutal Ashurnasirpal II, who reigned between 884-856.
From Babylon, Nabo-Nasir (Nabonassar), founder of the Neo-Babylonian Dynasty. Clearly the root NSR isn't Arabic !

We'll have to look deeper into those Assyrian and Gnostic accounts to realize the origins and tenets of Islam...
For example, out of the same region mentioned above, came Bardesanes whose Gnosticism was Chaldean.

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:18 pm
by The Cat
Ibn Rushd wrote:I understand this back-projection as meaning that in the Umayyad and early Abbasid times the Christians were court officials and supporters of the Arab kingdoms. I believe this was transformed into them helping Muslims from the beginning when they arrived.

I think this have to go with the wrong notion that the Romans were in charge over Palestinia and Syria at the time of the early Islamic conquests. It wasn't so. Palestinia and South Syria were under the ruling of the Ghassanids while North Syria and Iraq, under that of the Lakhmids tribes. The former were rather Monophysites or Arians, while the Lakhmids mainly embraced Nestorianism. Muslims still hold Heraclius in high esteem...
Image

So the emerging Islamists came in a region already ruled by Christianized Arabs in a time of harsh christological disputes over the nature of Christ: Arianism, Nestorianism, Gnostics, Orthodox, Monophysites, Monothelitists, Iconoclasts, etc. The Islamic tradition holds Heraclius in high regards which wouldn't be possible in the case of clashing armies. In fact, they were allied -Kuresh- from the first. All those clashing fights between Arabs and Romans are part of latter inventions, namely from the spurious al-Tabari's Annals (915). All the coins that we have from, at least the Umayyad ones, are testimonies of such friendship. I'll only be convinced otherwise if someone can produce Roman proves for those early battles with the Saracens (as they were known). Heraclius might have thought those were internal fights between Arabs and didn't bother much with his handful of barbarians like the Bulgars and Avars, knocking north...

More so, it is well known that Muawiyah also encouraged peaceful coexistence with the Christian communities of Syria, and one of his closest advisers was Sarjun, the father of John of Damascus who grew up playing with Yasid I. We have the bath of Gadara inscription to demonstrate that. Therein we also find out that he signed not as a caliph but as an emir, which is a -provincial- governor title! That's pretty convincing to me...

Closing on the Ansars (NSR, same root as Nasara for Christians)...
http://www.islaam.ca/downloads/pdfs/isl ... uslims.pdf
Q.2.256: Ibn Ishaaq also narrates on the authority of 'Abdullah, son of 'Abbas: ''This verse was revealed because of Al Husayni, a man from the Ansar who was from the tribe of Salim, son of 'Awf. He had two Christian sons while he was a Muslim (they were to leave Medina with the expelled Jewish tribe of Nadeer, much to the Ansaar chagrin), he asked the Prophet (may the Salat and Salam be upon him: ''Should I compel them to be Muslims, because they refuse to have any religion other than Christianity?''

Quoting 10.99; 50.45; 88.22. Ibn Katheer states: ''Meaning: You are not to force them into belief; you are only one to convey the message.'' (see note2: If Islam does not permit Muslims to force their own children into Islam, how can it be claimed that it condones forcing others into it).

So, admittedly, they were Christians into the Ansars, which can be thought as their former faith!

Then, the article reports the treaty of tolerance between Muhammad and the Arab Christians of Najran, wherein in exchange for some goods, Muslims would guarantee their worship. This historical guarantee has been trampled, maybe on the base of the transgressed Hudaibiyah treaty...

Once again, no one can trust an Islamic treaty (9.1)! They would kill their best allies as they have done to Ubayda,
the leader of the Ansar tribe, at the Saqifah conference, happening upon Muhammad's most bloody succession...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqifah
One of the earliest accounts of Saqifah is to be found in Ibn Ishaq's sira, or biography of Muhammad. It is based on the words of Umar himself, as reported to Ibn Ishaq by Ibn Al-Abbas. According to this account, after the death of Muhammad the Ansar gathered at the Bani Sa'ida's saqifah while the closest relatives of Muhammad, Fatima and Ali and their relatives, were preparing Muhammad's body for burial. Abu Bakr and Umar were sitting with some of the Muhajirun, the emigrants from Mecca. Having heard that the Ansar were meeting, they went to join them. There, Abu Bakr addressed the Ansar.

Abu Bakr argued that only a leader from the Quraysh, Mecca's leading clan, could keep the community intact. Only the Quraysh were universally recognized as a noble clan, worthy of leadership. He suggested that the meeting choose either Umar or Abu Ubayda (both Quraysh) as a leader. One of the Ansar suggested that the Ansar should choose a leader for themselves and the Meccans should choose another for themselves. The meeting became loud and unruly. Umar is reported to have said that he feared that the unity of the Muslim community would dissolve then and there. So he seized Abu Bakr's hand and loudly swore the bay'ah to him as the leader of the Muslims. The Muhajairun followed his lead and then the Ansar.

One man, Sa'd ibn 'Ubada, the leader of the Khazraj faction of the Ansar, protested. Umar's words, as reported to Ibn Ishaq, were, "we jumped on Sad ibn Ubada and someone said we killed him. I said, 'God kill him.' The next day, the Muslim community of Medina gathered for prayers and Umar spoke, praising Abu Bakr and urging the community to swear allegiance to him. Ibn Ishaq says that the bulk of the community did so. However, there were some who dissented, namely Ali and his supporters.

I see a major lead between the Quraysh (Meccan?) and the Koresh which meant the tribes allied to Heraclius against Persia.
But that's another topic, which I'll develop as time allows...
Bye...

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:24 am
by Ibn Rushd
I have entertained recently the spelling of Arabic quraysh and Hebrew qoresh=Cyrus and Greek kyros=Cyrus. Maybe they are all the same? Some remembrance on the part of the Arabs that they were settled by Cyrus or were part of his tribe. Also the Greek form resembles kyrios which means "lord".

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:02 pm
by The Cat
The most widely accepted etymology for Cyrus is the Edomite 'Kurash' meaning 'To bestow care'.
Kuros for 'sun' is also considered, and no Hebrew or Greek origins would fit in properly for Cyrus.

But Kyrie (Lord) is most probably the Syriac root for Koran. Kuryan being a generic for religious lecture.
It can hardly come out from the later Arabic Qara'a, which originally meant ''to be pregnant' (Qara)!

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:26 am
by Takeiteasynow
The Cat wrote:The Akkadian & Assyrian roots of NSR.
The Arabic NSR (verb nasr, Ansar/Nasara) lead us to the Assyrian Epic of Gilgamesh...
In it their god Ashur is transformed into Anshar, the Helper and Redeemer.
It leads to Mount Nasir, the Salvation mount, where the Assyrian Noah landed.
The Quran 11.14 talks about Mount Judi (Cudi for Kurds is more usual).

http://www.ancientworldfoundation.org/r ... orcudi.htm
The opinion of Professor Hilprecht in 1910 was that Jebel Judi was the correct mountain. It was called Mt. Nisir in the time of King Ashurbanipal (883-859bce) and later designated Mt. Nipir (Nipur) by King Sennacherib who wrote that the villages on it were "from days of old." He took a plank from the Ark back to Nineveh. Berossus in the 3rd Century BC wrote that part of the ship still survived in his day and people would carry off pieces of pitch as amulets. Nicholas of Damascus also makes the same point that the remains were a great while preserved. These ancient observations argue for a low altitude under 10,000 feet.

The story of the monk St. Jacob of Nisibis who climbed the mountain of Noah in the 4th Century and obtained a piece of Ark wood from allegedly an angel tends to confirm Mt. Cudi as the true site since Nisibis is close to it. Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in the 4th Century wrote that the site at the mountain of the Gordynenns as described by Berossus still had "remains of Noah's Ark" which means they were available for viewing, hence at a lower altitude not always snow covered.

Abbot Aphni-MARAN of the Nestorian Church built a monastery on the mountains of Kardo, Gebel Al-Cudi about 625 A.D. which was probably a memorial to Noah on the top of Mt. Cudi. Eutychius, Bishop of Alexandria in the 9th Century wrote that "the Ark rested on the mountains of Urartu, that is Jabal Judi near Mosul." The historian Elmacin recorded in the 13th Century that in the 7th Century the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius had climbed Jabal Judi in order to see the place where the Ark had landed.

The historian Benjamin of Tudela in the 12th Century wrote that "I traveled two days to Jezireh BenOmar (modern Cizre), an island in the Tigris, at the foot of Mt. Ararat...on which the Ark of Noah rested. Omar Ben al-Khatab removed the Ark from the summit of the two mountains and made a mosque of it." Here Cudi is obviously meant but termed Ararat, a designation that has led to much error. (...) The name CUDI seems, to be a paleo-Hebrew word YE-Hudah meaning May God Be Praised. When Noah landed after his long voyage he probably said, "Praise God" and the term was applied to the mountain.


This mount is situated about a hundred miles northwest of Mosul, near the ancient Nineveh, upper Tigris river where Syria,
Turkey and Iraq meet. Still the seat of a Chaldean archdiocese. Mount Ararat is actually 300 miles further north.
There were nearby archaeological researches (from 1982) in an ancient place called Tell Muhammed Arab!
Mount Cudi, east of Urfa and Haran, south of lake Van, north of Mosul (Nineveh). Ancient Hurriah & Mitanni.
Image
I should add that Mosul, sharing the consonant etymology, is too close to Muslim for comfort. In Arabic, Muslim
means 'one who submitted' but MOSLEM (pronounced like a 'z'.) rather means 'one who is evil and unjust'' !
Image

The Assyrian Epic of Gilgamesh also talks about Mount Mashu, etymologically related to the Arabic Masih (Messiah).
It's the place that Gilgamesh has to reach, at the edge of the world, to obtain immortality (or salvation from death).

Shamash in between the twin peak of Mount Mashu,
those peaks symbolized the rising and setting sun...
Image

http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/Slide1.htm
All of the pertinent evidence for Noah's ark and his post flood city "Mesha," (later called Naxuan), is found on this mountain, named anciently "Cordu," (which means "Mountain of the Kurds" ). It is also called, by the local Kurds, "Mashu-r," an ancient name of the ark mountain found in Akkadian-Babylonian flood story, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" ( "Mount Mashu" ) and as known as "Mesha" in Genesis 10:30, a beginning place from which Noah's Shemetic sons of Yocktan are said to have dwelt. In Shemetic both words are spelled msh, so logically then, they are the same place. The town of Uzengili was once called Nasar, before 1948 when the ark appeared. This name was the precise Akkadian - Babylonian name for Noah's town and mountain NSR supposedly pronounced "Nisir," as best the philologists can recover the exact phonetic sound. This ancient name for the village just adjacent to the ark is a critical point in the identification of the site. Ancient writers called this second town (city) " when people began to move away form Naxuan....Seron." Seron became Nasar in reality, and this city has also been identified by the present author. (...)

It is important to note that Seron was called "Nisir" by the Babylonians "Mt. Nisir" being the mountain of the ark landing. In 1948 the village next to the ark had a name change, from "Nasar" (which in Shemitic languages amounts to the same thing) to "Uzengili," meaning "it belongs to Uzengil." Uzengil is an Arabic mythic giant, whose image the local Kurds saw in the ship.

Looks like the curious quranic depiction of Alexander also comes from this Epic...
Nabonidus stayed in Teyma, Arabia, for about 10 years. He certainly had a deep influence therein!

Should we then label the Quran as The Epic of Muhammad? That is largely mythical... :turban:


Appendix:
In Akkadian, Kur-Nisir means a land, a region, likely mountainous.
We also have the term Nisurtu which means concealed, hidden.

A phase in the Sumerian development is called Jemder-nasr (3200-2900bce)
It roughly corresponds with the invasion of the Gutians from the nearby hills.
And the term nasr must refers to this mythical salvation history of Ziusudra.

We also have many Akkadian or Assyrian kings with nasir embolded in their names. It meant 'protector' or 'guardian'.
We so have Enlil-Nasir I & II (1479-1414bce), and the brutal Ashurnasirpal II, who reigned between 884-856.
From Babylon, Nabo-Nasir (Nabonassar), founder of the Neo-Babylonian Dynasty. Clearly the root NSR isn't Arabic !

We'll have to look deeper into those Assyrian and Gnostic accounts to realize the origins and tenets of Islam...
For example, out of the same region mentioned above, came Bardesanes whose Gnosticism was Chaldean.


Brilliant post!

Re: Nasara (for Christians) in the Koran

PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:30 am
by Garudaman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay gay mean homo, but originally mean carefree, cheerful, or bright and showy, so nasara is mean christian, whatever its originally mean.