Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

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Cassie
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Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Cassie »

Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud. He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God. http://inthenameofallah.org/quran%20chapter%2018.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That story is only a legend. It is not scripture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sleepers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The oldest version may have been by Jacob of Saruq, who died in 521 AD. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_of_Saruq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.truthnet.org/islam/src-chp4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1. THE SEVEN SLEEPERS

- The tale as given in the Koran is quoted in full below.' It is one of Greek origin to be found in a Latin work of Gregory of Tours,' and may be described in brief as referring to the age of the Emperor Decius (249-251 A.D.), when Christians were terribly persecuted, and every endeavor made to destroy the Faith. To escape with their lives, seven men of Ephesus took refuge in a Cave near their city, and fell asleep for two hundred years, till the reign of Theodorus II. (447 A.D.). On awaking, one of them ventured into the City to see what in the interval had happened, and was overcome with amazement to find the Christian faith triumphant over all other religions. The Cross, once the sign of shame and disgrace, now the crown of the Emperor, and the mark of Empire; and nearly the whole people of the land turned Christians. All this is of course a mere story, composed no doubt to illustrate the rapidity with which, by the grace of the Holy Spirit and shedding of Martyrs' blood, the Faith had gained ascendancy at the last. No Christian ever dreamt that the tale was true; but such as the nurse tells her children of "the cat and the mouse," etc. But the Prophet has entered it with all gravity in the Koran for the instruction of his followers. Is it needful for us to add that such a tale could never have been placed by the Most High upon the heavenly Table, and from thence sent down to the Prophet; but was learned by him from some of the ignorant Christians around him?

Surah 18 8-26. Dost thou consider that the Companions of the Cave, and al Rakim, were one of our signs and a great miracle? When the young men took refuge in the Cave, they said, O Lord, grant us mercy from before Thee, and dispose our business for us to a right issue. Wherefore we struck their ears so that they slept in the Cave for a great number of years: then we awakened them....We will relate unto thee their history with truth. They were young men who had believed in their Lord; and we had abundantly directed them; and we fortified their hearts with constancy when they stood before the judge; and they said Our Lord is the Lord of heaven and earth; we will by no means call on any god besides him; for then we should surely utter an extravagance....And they said to one another, When ye shall separate yourselves from them, and from that which they worship besides God, then fly into the Cave: your Lord will pour his mercy upon you abundantly and dispose your business to advantage. And thou mightest have seen the sun, when it had risen to decline from their Cave to the right hand, and when it went down, to leave them on the left hand: and they were in the spacious part of the Cave. This was one of the signs of God....And thou wouldest have judged them to have been awake, while they were sleeping; and we caused them to turn themselves to the right hand and to the left. And their dog stretched forth his fore-legs in the mouth of the Cave; if thou hadst come suddenly upon them, verily thou wouldst have turned thy back and fled from them, and thou wouldst have been filled with fear at the sight of them. And so we awaked them out of their sleep, that they might ask questions of one another. One of them said, How long have ye tarried here? They answered, We have tarried a day, or part of a day. Others said: Your Lord best knoweth the time ye have tarried. And now send one of you with this your money into the City, and let him see which of its people hath the best and cheapest food, and let him bring you provision from him; and let him behave circumspectly, and not discover you to anyone. Verily, if they come up against you, they will stone you, or force you to return to their religion; and then shall you not prosper for ever. And so we made their people acquainted with what had happened to them....And they said, Erect a Chapel over them; their Lord best knoweth their condition.... Some say the Sleepers were three, and their dog was the fourth; others say they were five, and their dog the sixth, guessing at a secret matter; and others say they were Seven, and their dog the eigth.Say, My Lord best knoweth their numbers; none shall know them except a few. Wherefore dispute not concerning them, unless with a clear disputation, and ask not any (of the Christians) concerning them....And they remained in their Cave 300 years and 9 years over.

How does it feel to know that your prophet was a FRAUD, Muslims?
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Cassie
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

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Where are the Muslims?
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by charleslemartel »

Cassie wrote:Where are the Muslims?
They are here all right, but they cannot see posts as such these. Allah protects them from seeing or reading posts which could shake their faith :lol:
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Nosubmission »

I have come across a bunch of so-called educated Muslims who blindly refute that Mohammad's inept scribes plagiarised this legend from the writings of a Christian. Mohammad's scribes were unable to distinguish heresies from Orthodox doctrines as well as non-canonical literature from the Jewish and Christian scriptures. Mohammad mistakenly presumed that EVERY story recounted by Jews and Christians was biblical. The result: most of the stories in the Koran were copied from Jewish and Christian legends/fables/tales/apocryphal writings/biblical commentaries before their uncanny alteration for adaptation to Mohammad's teachings. The story of the seven sleepers is only ONE of such pieces of religious literature.

The funny thing is that some Muslims (mostly those who consult Islamic apologists) make use of this story of the seven sleepers while trying to convince non-Muslims that Mohammad was a true messenger. At another forum I had a heated debate with a supposed female convert to Islam who made every single effort to prove that the story of the Seven Sleepers was a part of a difficult test devised by some Jews and given to Mohammad. Those Jews supposedly (Jews asking Mohammad questions about a story by Christians ?!?) thought that Mohammad would not be able to answer the question about the Seven Sleepers if Allah had not directly revealed this narrative to him. He eventually related the story in details and passed the test.

When I debunked the female convert's arguments about Mohammad and the supposed test, she changed the subject ( this is what every Muslim does in case of confrontation and rebuttal) claiming that this story highlighted the so-called divine origin of the Koran because of its implicit reference to a scientific fact about human anatomy. Her assertion was that no one at Mohammad's time could know that people sinking into a coma had to be periodically turned aside by other people so that their bodies would not have bruises, which is, of course, an Islamic hoax dedicated to the praise of the Koran. If you want and if I can find my rebuttal, I could post it here too.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Universal »

Nosubmission wrote:If you want and if I can find my rebuttal, I could post it here too.
Please post it here if it is found.
"All the muslims will assemble before Allah on Judgement Day and ask him to translate the Quran :) "- Charlesmartel FFI
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by yeezevee »

Cassie starts a thread with Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud » and says
...Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud. He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God. http://inthenameofallah.org/quran%20chapter%2018.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ....
Well I read this
The Prophet not only told them the main story but pointed out the variations that were current, and rebuked men for disputing about such details (xviii. 22). Most important of all, he treated the story (under inspiration) as a parable, pointing to lessons of the highest value. This is Revelation in the highest sense of the term. The story is recapitulated in n. 2337 below. (18.9)2336 Raqim = Inscription. So interpreted by the Jalalain, and the majority of Commentators agree. See n. 2337, below. Others think it was the name of the dog: see xviii. 18, and n. 2350 below#

*** Since the pagan Arabs had no such story in their oral tradition and definitely not in any written form, how else could Muhammad 'invent' it without his recourse to external sources which were available to him?

After all, most of the Quranic verses are based upon the Bible and Rabbinical traditions which are obviously external sources.


In the case above, this is a legend found in Greek and Christian fables, transmitted through both Christian and Jewish sources and hence not uncommon before and during the time of Muhammad. The word Raqim is obviously NOT Arabic since even the Muhammadan philologists could not agree as to its origin.

Al Suyuti believed it to be a Greek word, which would agree with the explanation given by C C Torrey in his "The Jewish foundation of Islam" p 46 ***

10 Behold the youths betook themselves to the Cave: they said "Our Lord! bestow on us Mercy from Thyself and dispose of our affair for us in the right way!
from that free From Islam.com!., So who is copy-pasting who dear Cassie?? Who is the Fraud here dear Cassie..lol..

with best wishes
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

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Nosubmission wrote:The funny thing is that some Muslims (mostly those who consult Islamic apologists) make use of this story of the seven sleepers while trying to convince non-Muslims that Mohammad was a true messenger. At another forum I had a heated debate with a supposed female convert to Islam who made every single effort to prove that the story of the Seven Sleepers was a part of a difficult test devised by some Jews and given to Mohammad. Those Jews supposedly (Jews asking Mohammad questions about a story by Christians ?!?) thought that Mohammad would not be able to answer the question about the Seven Sleepers if Allah had not directly revealed this narrative to him. He eventually related the story in details and passed the test.
That is what I found in the wiki article that Cassie linked to. The Siras have this story too: Jews asked Muh. about it and "God" gave the answer they sought with the unknowns still present showing its "divine origin" of the tale. I find this an anomaly when Jews ask Muh. about a Christian legend with Christian saints. Jews don't give a damn. Maybe there will be some article about this in an academic journal.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by AhmedBahgat »

yeezevee wrote:Cassie starts a thread with Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud » and says
...Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud. He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God. http://inthenameofallah.org/quran%20chapter%2018.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ....
Well I read this
The Prophet not only told them the main story but pointed out the variations that were current, and rebuked men for disputing about such details (xviii. 22). Most important of all, he treated the story (under inspiration) as a parable, pointing to lessons of the highest value. This is Revelation in the highest sense of the term. The story is recapitulated in n. 2337 below. (18.9)2336 Raqim = Inscription. So interpreted by the Jalalain, and the majority of Commentators agree. See n. 2337, below. Others think it was the name of the dog: see xviii. 18, and n. 2350 below#

*** Since the pagan Arabs had no such story in their oral tradition and definitely not in any written form, how else could Muhammad 'invent' it without his recourse to external sources which were available to him?

After all, most of the Quranic verses are based upon the Bible and Rabbinical traditions which are obviously external sources.


In the case above, this is a legend found in Greek and Christian fables, transmitted through both Christian and Jewish sources and hence not uncommon before and during the time of Muhammad. The word Raqim is obviously NOT Arabic since even the Muhammadan philologists could not agree as to its origin.

Al Suyuti believed it to be a Greek word, which would agree with the explanation given by C C Torrey in his "The Jewish foundation of Islam" p 46 ***

10 Behold the youths betook themselves to the Cave: they said "Our Lord! bestow on us Mercy from Thyself and dispose of our affair for us in the right way!
from that free From Islam.com!., So who is copy-pasting who dear Cassie?? Who is the Fraud here dear Cassie..lol..

with best wishes
yeezevee
LOL yekee

you look like a nice guy who wannabe a Muslim

after you read all my tranlsation when I finish it, you may have better odds to be a Muslim
Nosubmission
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Nosubmission »

Universal wrote:
Nosubmission wrote:If you want and if I can find my rebuttal, I could post it here too.
Please post it here if it is found.
Here are the records of my debate with the supposed female convert to Islam:

SHE wrote:

Last night I was studying the 18th chapter of the Qur'an, and it talks about some people being asleep for 309 years, and God says that He kept turning them on their sides. And in our circle we had a retired neurologist, who described how when a patient is comatose, the nurses have to turn him every two hours because if he remains in one place the bottom tissues will begin to die because of the pressure. So God says He turned them. Why say that, and is it likely that Muhammad knew about that? I don't think so. But that's an example.


I answered:

Would you please show me the Koran verse where it says "those sleepers were periodically turned over lest they got bedsores"? I need you to quote that verse, for the translations I have checked so far have nothing to support your argument. The Koran versions lack the specific reason YOU give for Allah's turning the sleepers to the right and left.

SHE wrote:

I made a post before that which you should have checked. I was explaining that we were discussing the passage in a class with the imam, and there was a retired neurologist among us in the class, and he was describing how it is necessary for a comatose patient to be turned by the nurses every 2 hours because the tissues the body is laying on will be destroyed because of the pressure.

Allah says he turned them on their sides. I'm asking YOU, why even mention it? Why mention the turning? That is what is so interesting, because a body like that MUST be turned, but that probably wasn't known at the time.

Then I said in response:

I know pretty well how those imams interpret the Koran and read into it in order to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I had simply asked you where in the Koran Allah had stated the reason for turning those sleepers to the right and left. Your inference, which is based on the personal interpretation of a certain imam and a "retired neurologist", does not exist in your scripture. This is what I want to show my friends reading the posts of this thread.

Let's read the verse and see why the Koran includes that detail into the account of the sleepers:

[18.18] And you might think them awake while they were asleep and We turned them about to the right and to the left, while their dog (lay) outstretching its paws at the entrance; if you looked at them you would certainly turn back from them in flight, and you would certainly be filled with awe because of them.

Apparently, the Koran means that those sleepers were actually dead. However, their bodies were preserved from corruption as their death was likened to a deep sleep. According to the Koran, Allah turned those sleepers to the right and to the left because he wanted them to appear alive and asleep. Since those people in the cave were dead indeed, they could not move in their sleep as alive people always do. This problem was solved through divine inetervention: Allah moved them although they were dead so as to convince people that they were not dead, but asleep.

What did your imam say about that dog "outstretching its paws at the entrance"? Was a similar miracle implied by that? Or the dog's posture only helped it to appear alive and sleep (not dead) ?

SHE later attacked my statement "According to the Koran, Allah turned those sleepers to the right and to the left because he wanted them to appear alive and asleep." and wrote:

Appear so to WHOM?? Nobody was allowed to approach the cave. So why would it matter what they looked like?

I responded:

Now you are ignoring the answer given to your question by the Koran:

Surah 18:18 And thou wouldst have deemed them waking though they were asleep, and We caused them to turn over to the right and the left, and their dog stretching out his paws on the threshold.

The Koran makes it clear that the analogy drawn between deep sleep and death made it necessary for the sleepers to change their posture. Since they were not alive, they could not do that by themselves and needed divine intervention to turn aside from time to time as alive people always do.

SHE finally claimed that "the seven sleepers were not literally dead, but asleep like people in a coma". To this assumption I responded:

You really believe that those people slept for 309 years? If your answer is yes, please answer my questions:

1)How come those sleepers did not feel hunger or thirst? Bed-ridden patients are not only turned aside in their beds by their caretakers, but also fed and cleaned!

2) If they were not alive, why could they not move while lying? Why did Allah do the thing those sleepers themselves could have easily done?

3) According to the Koran, Mohammad would have run away from those sleepers if he had seen them in the cave:

Surah 18:18 If thou hadst observed them closely thou hadst assuredly turned away from them in flight, and hadst been filled with awe of them.

Why would Mohammad turn away from those sleepers if he had observed them carefully? Did Mohammad have psychological problems? Was he uncannily afraid of observing alive people in their sleep?

No dear *****, those sleepers were actually dead although they were made by Allah to seem alive for the sake of the analogy between lying dead and falling asleep.

SHE repeated:

Recall the example of someone who is COMATOSE.

I asked:

Those sleepers were in a coma? Who gave them the serum then? Who changed their diapers? I hope it was not Mohammad or Allah.

SHE repeated her question:

But nobody was allowed to see them, thus what would be the point?

I elaborated on my answer:

What was Allah's point in recounting this story to Mohammad then since no one could see them in the cave after all? Although no one could see those sleepers in the cave, Allah turned them to the right and left sides for the sole purpose of attaching credibility to the story and strengthening the analogy between falling asleep and passing away. The dog's "outstretching its paws to the entrance" served the same purpose.

SHE tried to sum up her arguments:

In sum--they weren't dead, they were alive. Nobody was allowed to approach the cave (by Allah) so nobody could see them lying there. They were turned because in their deep sleep (perhaps like a COMA) they weren't able to turn themselves. So Allah turned them to prevent tissue damage.

I summarised my points:

They were not able to eat and drink in their deep sleep! If you do not feed and clean a person in a deep sleep like a COMA, that person will inevitably die from hunger and/or infection!

NO MORE ANSWÊRS FROM HER! :P
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Nosubmission
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Nosubmission »

Ibn Rushd wrote:
Nosubmission wrote:The funny thing is that some Muslims (mostly those who consult Islamic apologists) make use of this story of the seven sleepers while trying to convince non-Muslims that Mohammad was a true messenger. At another forum I had a heated debate with a supposed female convert to Islam who made every single effort to prove that the story of the Seven Sleepers was a part of a difficult test devised by some Jews and given to Mohammad. Those Jews supposedly (Jews asking Mohammad questions about a story by Christians ?!?) thought that Mohammad would not be able to answer the question about the Seven Sleepers if Allah had not directly revealed this narrative to him. He eventually related the story in details and passed the test.
That is what I found in the wiki article that Cassie linked to. The Siras have this story too: Jews asked Muh. about it and "God" gave the answer they sought with the unknowns still present showing its "divine origin" of the tale. I find this an anomaly when Jews ask Muh. about a Christian legend with Christian saints. Jews don't give a damn. Maybe there will be some article about this in an academic journal.
I am trying to find the words of that supposed female convert about the relation between the story of the seven sleepers and the test given to mohammad. I shall post it as soon as I find it.
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Cassie
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Cassie »

Ibn Rushd wrote:
Nosubmission wrote:The funny thing is that some Muslims (mostly those who consult Islamic apologists) make use of this story of the seven sleepers while trying to convince non-Muslims that Mohammad was a true messenger. At another forum I had a heated debate with a supposed female convert to Islam who made every single effort to prove that the story of the Seven Sleepers was a part of a difficult test devised by some Jews and given to Mohammad. Those Jews supposedly (Jews asking Mohammad questions about a story by Christians ?!?) thought that Mohammad would not be able to answer the question about the Seven Sleepers if Allah had not directly revealed this narrative to him. He eventually related the story in details and passed the test.
That is what I found in the wiki article that Cassie linked to. The Siras have this story too: Jews asked Muh. about it and "God" gave the answer they sought with the unknowns still present showing its "divine origin" of the tale. I find this an anomaly when Jews ask Muh. about a Christian legend with Christian saints. Jews don't give a damn. Maybe there will be some article about this in an academic journal.
You know, the Jews refused to accept Muhammad's kind offer to be their prophet, probably because they spotted him as a fraud right away. I think they just asked some questions and let him hang himself with his ignorance. Perhaps the story about the crafty Jews is not so far off, after all. Muhammad could not convince the Jews. They might have mocked him, and the poor sensitive soul couldn't take it and went quite mad with rage at them, which was why he resorted to genocide and ethnic-cleansing.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by yeezevee »

yeezevee wrote:Cassie starts a thread with Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud » and says

...Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud. He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God. http://inthenameofallah.org/quran%20chapter%2018.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ....

Well I read this
....After all, most of the Quranic verses are based upon the Bible and Rabbinical traditions which are obviously external sources.

In the case above, this is a legend found in Greek and Christian fables, transmitted through both Christian and Jewish sources and hence not uncommon before and during the time of Muhammad...
at free From Islam.com!., So who is copy-pasting ...
AhmedBahgat says:
LOL yekee

you look like a nice guy who wannabe a Muslim

after you read all my tranlsation when I finish it, you may have better odds to be a Muslim
AhmedBahgat Chicken.. AhmedBahgat Chicken .. AhmedBahgat Chicken YOU DELETED THAT FROM free From Islam.com! dammit... lol..

That is O.K. you did a right thing..
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Islamic_Science2 »

Cassie wrote:Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud.
He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God.
Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) may or may not have been a fraud but Surah 18 is not the surah to prove that he was one.
Casie wrote:How does it feel to know that your prophet was a FRAUD, Muslims?
That's something we don't talk about. We keep secrets to ourselves. Many of us are agnostic, atheist, crypto-Christian, or just believers in God, but nevertheless we are Muslims because of our ethnicity.
Cassie wrote:Where are the Muslims?
You don't know how to attract Muslims.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Cassie »

Islamic_Science2 wrote:
Cassie wrote:Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud.
He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God.
Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) may or may not have been a fraud but Surah 18 is not the surah to prove that he was one.
Of course if you ignore the fact that he mistook a Roman fairy tale as the word of god.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Islamic_Science2 »

Cassie wrote:
Islamic_Science2 wrote:
Cassie wrote:Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a Fraud.
He thought the Roman legend of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus was the word of God.
Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) may or may not have been a fraud but Surah 18 is not the surah to prove that he was one.
Of course if you ignore the fact that he mistook a Roman fairy tale as the word of god.

We don't know if Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) truly believed a Roman fairy tale as the word of God. What we can be certain of is that there was no Qur'an when Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) was alive. In fact there was no Qur'an for at least a 100 years after Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) died. And what we have of the Qur'an today is not same as the earliest ones being 100 years later than Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم). If the Qur'an is any evidence as to what Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم) believed then it is flimsy and doubtful at best.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Cassie »

Are you saying that surah 18 didn't come from Muhammad?
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Islamic_Science2 »

Not only Surah 18 but most of the Qur'an if not all of it did not come from Mohammed(صلى الله عليه وسلم).
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Cassie
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Cassie »

Good. Then we're agreed that the Quran is fraudulent.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Islamic_Science2 »

Cassie wrote:Good. Then we're agreed that the Quran is fraudulent.
Its not only fraudulent but it is valuable in the hands of the critic.
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Re: Surah 18 proves Muhammad was a fraud

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Oh good. I thought you had turned muslim on us. I was going to say something before, but I thought perhaps you were fooling us.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

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