signs

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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manfred
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signs

Post by manfred »

Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of night and day, and the ships which run upon the sea with that which is of use to men, and the water which Allah sendeth down from the sky, thereby reviving the earth after its death, and dispersing all kinds of beasts therein, and (in) the ordinance of the winds, and the clouds obedient between heaven and earth: are signs (of Allah's Sovereignty) for people who have sense.
Qur'an 2:164

I am sure this totally convinces you of of Allah and Mohammed, and you cannot wait to say the shahadda.

No? Well, then you are not of the people who"have sense" according to this master piece.


Again let me summarise the clear proof for Islam....

1) There is something unspecified in the creation that proves it all.
2) we got days as well as nights, you know.... have you noticed?
3) there are ships, did you know? and they can be useful!
4) there is rain too! It seems Allah sends a lot more to the UK than to Mecca.... does that mean he likes the UK better? Forget the water cycle, that is an atheist lie.
5) there are animals as well... did you know?
6) winds follow orders (not sure if that includes the winds people pass)
7) clouds obey the wind

Now surely, not a single person can resist this divine argument! It is so totally compelling!

Can't see it? Well, then you ARE STUPID, Allah says.

So, shahadda, everybody? Isn't it obvious that this sublime argument can only be from God and therefore Mohammed must be a prophet?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: signs

Post by manfred »

No shahadda yet?

Ok ok .... have another sign:
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
Qur'an 10:5

This has had a heavy work-over by the translator, so let's stick to the actual text

1) the sun is a shining glory... actually it is a "lamp". the sun is a lamp.
2) the moon is a LIGHT (nothing with "of beauty")

Slight problem with this "sign": the moon is not a light, it only reflects the sun light. But hey, Allah is allowed the odd mistake...

So here is the sign:

There is a sun and a moon, both are bright. How could you ever know that unless Allah tells you?

People use the sun and the moon to make calendars. Hey, who would have thought of that?


So now, as you finally realise that Allah made two nice little lamps for you, will you do the shahadda thing?

Still not?

Image

Let Mohammed show you the next argument....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: signs

Post by Eagle »

These aren't signs for Muhammad's prophethood. But of an intelligent design. Without getting into the intricacies of the above quoted revelations, the point is that the believer sees a metaphor of the higher realities in all aspects of nature, is constantly reminded and increased in God-consciousness the more he looks around and ponders
2:115"so whichever way you turn, there is the Face of Allah".

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manfred
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Re: signs

Post by manfred »

I am no fan of proofs in religion. They always fail.
At best what you can say is there are aspects of nature which some view as pointing to something divine. Such argument is an expression of belief.

The Islamic "clear proofs" and "signs" are only lists of trivialities that anyone can observe, followed by a demand to draw a conclusion from those that is not following from the premise.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: signs

Post by Eagle »

What is it that you think the premise of the verses in question is? Quote a specific verse

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manfred
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Re: signs

Post by manfred »

Ok... there isa sun and a moon. Anyone can see that. That they were created does not follow by necessity from their presence, much less that this "allah" has anything at all to do with them.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Eagle
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Re: signs

Post by Eagle »

Neither is it what the verse says. It calls for contemplation on an intelligent design, a higher purpose of existence.

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manfred
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Re: signs

Post by manfred »

Eagle the more I look at how you deal with the Qur'an, the more I see it is for you quite an irrelevant text. It always says what you want it to say, Allah gets constantly corrected.

So "sign" suddenly becomes a "call for contemplation". The verse makes no such claim. it's aim is to present evidence for something.
It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
The sun and the moon are both lights (well, the sun is, the moon isn't). That is the sign. Not only is there an error, but the existence of the sun and moon do not show that anyone made them, by necessity. So to present them as "signs" for Allah, or indeed any deity is at best a cheap trick, designed for stupid people.

A very telling part of this "argument presented in the Qur'an is the "for those who understand". It makes no attempt at all at presenting a real "sign". It simply says.... here are two lights, the sun and the moon. And "Allah" made that. If you argue you are stupid.

Rather like SAM's way of arguing really.... do you think he could be "Allah" in disguise?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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