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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:54 pm
by manfred
where is the universal Arabian temple of the 1st century?


There isn't one.

Nobody but you said there ever was one.

Now, will you tell me which unicorn ate the apple pie? I can repeat that silly question ad nauseam, too....

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:57 pm
by Eagle
Sure there was. And there is nothing silly about it. Where is the single temple revered by all of Arabia in the 1st century? Just in case people lose sight of Diodorus' words
a very sacred temple has been established there which is highly revered by all the Arabs

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:08 pm
by manfred
And where did he say "single"? Or even "universal"? We know that there were quite a few Kaabas. And these were not revered by all the Arabs? "A temple" - one of several or many.

"There is a mosque revered by all the Muslims in Mecca".... does that mean that ALL OTHER mosques are used as urinals by Muslims?

And modern research, using all available data, placed the temple mentioned by Diodorus, one of many, to be in Nabatea.

Please read the post by takeiteasynow's post, I quoted it for you. It also has links to follow.

While we can possibly agree that even these results are not 100% conclusive, they are a MUCH better bet than the suggestion of a location that was uninhabited in the first century. They use DATA, and FACTS, not dogma to make a case.

As to blaming the Saudis for archaeological evidence on Mecca, they started running things in the 1920s. What about from before then?

So why is there not a single ever so slight hint about this postulated "universal" cult centre revered by "all" the Arabs in ANY sources? Why is there not a single inscription/statue/ piece of pottery from Mecca dating from the time Diodosus wrote?

The comment that the naughty Saudis are hiding it really makes no sense. If they had anything at all, they would proudly show the world.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:22 am
by Eagle
So "a" temple may mean 2 temples, unsurprising coming from those who say that 1+1+1=1 god. There is a difference between saying "a temple in Mecca is revered by all Arabs" and "a temple is revered by all Arabs in Mecca" as is deceptively suggested. But again, deception is an accepted modus operandi to those who may be "Jew to a Jew" in order that they be "provoked into jealousy".

The temple is Universal to the Arabians, not the Chinese. Of course he doesnt say that word, it is understood. One single temple is revered by all the Arabs without any restriction. Of course there were other Kaabas but none was ever universally revered by the Arabs.

The comparison with mosques is weak, Arabs were far from all having the same religion and would therefore not venerate the same sites and objects.

As to reasearch, nothing was provided that even attempts showing a Kaaba anywherr else than in Mecca, that was revered by all the Arabs.

What is shown is, as usual, flimsy conspiracy tales, the likes of which were already addressed
As a side note, early Muslims, and those of Mecca in particular had a fair idea about the orientation of several astronomical phenomenon (sunrise or sunset during equinoxes, solstices, Pole star, Canopus etc) in relation to the Kaaba and used them to orient their mosques towards their respective qibla. They knew that when they stood in front of the edifice, they were facing a particular astronomical direction and reproduced the same alignements in their new location as if they stood directly in front of a particular Kaaba segment.
Iraqi mosques aligned towards the winter sunset, ie facing the northeast wall of Kaaba. In Fustat, Egypt it faced the winter sunrise, ie facing the northwest wall of Kaaba. None of those mosques faced Jerusalem or northern Arabia as some orientalists whose objective is to insidiously suggest the possibilities that the earliest Muslims did not pray toward Mecca and that the Islamic traditon of a qibla facing Kaaba was a later development, hidden from history by some sort of a conspiracy. There are even earlier open mosques in the Negev area, none of them are oriented towards northern Arabia or Jerusalem and all of them are aligned to Canopus thus facing the northwest wall.
Many Muslims werent familiar with those cosmic allignements, but surgical precision isnt required when searching for the qibla anyway. The Quran in 2:144 doesnt simply say to face the Kaaba, as it would be impossible to anyone a few kilometers away from Mecca due to the earth's roundness, but to face SHATR the Kaaba. Shatr means half and when used to mean direction, it implies towards the half of the earth where something is located. The clear ordinance is therefore to "face the direction" where Kaaba is located. That the Quranic statement isnt meant to be an exact science but rather an approximate orientation is reflected in the practice of early Muslims, as well as a statement from God's prophet that "between East and West is a qibla". So one is considered, even today as practiced by many Muslims, as facing the direction of the Kaaba if facing the northern or southern hemispheres with each shoulder directed east and west.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:28 am
by manfred
So "a" temple may mean 2 temples


Strawman.

I did not say that.

I pointed out if I say "can I have an apple" I mean ONE apple, any one, of a number of them. If there is only one apple, you would say "can I have the apple." As you have already conceded that there were multiple versions of the Kaaba, it it clear that that comment describes merely one of them. It is also clear that he does not mean any in Mecca, as that place did not exist yet. If you disagree you must supply the evidence. ALL existing cities leave a trace of some kind.

When the author says "a temple" he acknowledges implicitly that there are others also.


As to reasearch, nothing was provided that even attempts showing a Kaaba anywherr else than in Mecca, that was revered by all the Arabs.


Yes, eagle you really should stop peddling those. You should read the evidence instead. You yourself freely admitted the existence of multiple such sanctuaries.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:39 pm
by sum
Hello Eagle

Was Aisha circumcised?

sum

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:47 pm
by Takeiteasynow
Manfred wrote:
What today is Saudi Arabia would be called "Arabia deserta" by the Romans, the deserted (=empty) Arabia, and the Nabatean land was called "Arabia Petraea" the Arabia of Petra. "Arabia Felix" (the happy Arabia) was also the Nabatean land. LATER that also included Yemen, as some Nabateans settled there.


The association between Yemen and Arabia Felix is just a late invention of apologists and orientalists. The phrase 'Arabia Felix' is introduced by classical geographers such as Ptolemy. Ptolemy defines Arabia Felix as lying east of the modern Gulf of Aqaba, south of its terminus at Elath (Elana, Aqaba):

It is terminated on the north by the designated border of Arabia Petraea… and begins from the terminus of the Arabian gulf near the Elanite bay.


Image

The white area below Palestine is Arabia Petraea. The brown area below Arabia Petraea is Arabia Felix.

The locale of Midian within Arabia Felix can be inferred from the Ptolemaic towns of Macna and Madiama (red arrows) which correspond with the historic Midian towns of Maqna and Al-bad’, the latter being the Madyan of the medieval Arab geographers. Midian was also placed in Arabia Felix by the 1st-century AD Jewish historian Josephus (AD 37-ca. 100) (cf. Ant. I.xv.1 and Ant. II.xi.2).

It get's even better. Eusebius on Midian:
beyond Arabia to the south in the desert of the Saracens, east of the Red sea”


As a logical consequence the northern border of Arabia Deserta (No Man's Land) is the southern border of historical or biblical Midian or - following the definition of Eusebius - Arabia ends at the northern border of Midian. This makes one wonder if other definitions for Arabia Deserta can be found.

Manfred wrote:
LATER that also included Yemen, as some Nabateans settled there

As far as I know there is no archeological evidence for Nabatean immigration to or settlement in Yemen. After the second century the Himyarites, related to the Nabataeans, settle in Yemen. A tribe speaking a North-Semitic language and with a proto-Jewish religion, familiar with some aspects of the Torah but apparently not affiliated with Judea or Samaria.

Conclusion
The association of the peninsula with the pre-Islamic Arabian identity is just a late scholarly invention. To be more precise: apologetic fraud. The northern border of Arabia Deserta (No Man's Land) is the southern border of historical or biblical Midian or Arabia Deserta is part of Arabia Petraea and Arabia Felix.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:54 pm
by Takeiteasynow
Eagle wrote:
He speaks of the descendants of Ishmael and how they called the area they lived in a little less than 2000 years ago.


Well why don't we add another 800 years? From the ancient records of Assyrian King Tiglath Pilezeer III we can learn that he fought against a coalition of Hagaranu (Hagar) the Nabatu (Nabataeans => Nebayoth - the eldest son of Ishmael) and the Kedarites (Kedar => second son of Ishmael). Then in the seventh century the Assyrians fight once more against Kedarites and the Nabatu. Remarkable is that these non-literal references are almost as old as to Biblical tribal names.

How Abrahamic does it have to be?

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:28 pm
by Eagle
manfred wrote:
So "a" temple may mean 2 temples


Strawman.

I did not say that.

I pointed out if I say "can I have an apple" I mean ONE apple, any one, of a number of them. If there is only one apple, you would say "can I have the apple." As you have already conceded that there were multiple versions of the Kaaba, it it clear that that comment describes merely one of them. It is also clear that he does not mean any in Mecca, as that place did not exist yet. If you disagree you must supply the evidence. ALL existing cities leave a trace of some kind.

When the author says "a temple" he acknowledges implicitly that there are others also.


As to reasearch, nothing was provided that even attempts showing a Kaaba anywherr else than in Mecca, that was revered by all the Arabs.


Yes, eagle you really should stop peddling those. You should read the evidence instead. You yourself freely admitted the existence of multiple such sanctuaries.


The supposed "admittance" to several other Kaabas was brought up long ago, actually as part of the argument in favor of Mecca.

There is zero proof however that Diodorus was aware of the few other kaabas of Arabia, and if he did, this strengthens the case for Mecca even more as he speaks of only one among all of them that was revered by all the Arabs, exactly as Arab tradition asserts.

In addition to the refutation to Gibson and his supposed Mecca in Petra, it is also worthwhile pointing another weak method he uses for his conspiracy, namely the deceptive use of satellite images of mosques to make them appear as if they face the Petra region. The flaw in that method is that, as anyone familiar with mosques knows, it is impossible to ascertain eachone's mihrab (a niche in the interior of the wall of a mosque denoting the direction of prayer for worshippers in the mosque) except if one sees it from inside the building. One could just as easily align them with Hawaii rather than Petra.

But again, all this is besides the point; where is the temple revered by all the Arabs?

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:32 pm
by manfred
But again, all this is besides the point; where is the temple revered by all the Arabs?


Where is the unicorn who has eaten the apple pie?

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:34 pm
by Eagle
Nowhere in Diodorus' account, which speaks of one temple revered by all the Arabs. Or did the topic switch to Harry potter.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:26 pm
by manfred
manfred wrote:
But again, all this is besides the point; where is the temple revered by all the Arabs?


Where is the unicorn who has eaten the apple pie?



There is zero proof however that Diodorus was aware of the few other kaabas of Arabia, and if he did, this strengthens the case for Mecca even more as he speaks of only one among all of them that was revered by all the Arabs, exactly as Arab tradition asserts.


Incredible what you can read into that simple statement. Where did he say anything about a temple which was the only one revered by "all the Arabs"?

And, for a start, you ignore that he would not even consider those desert dwellers, such as they were, as "Arabs"... You are really good at ignoring inconvenient facts, such as the ones in takeiteasy's post. And how many times do people need to tell you that there was no "Mecca" in the first century BC. The Kaaba in Mecca in the over a thousand year of biblical writing, not one author ever mentioned Mecca, not even once in passing.

And Mohammed of course knew perfectly that his story about the Kaaba was total fiction.

“Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance I would have dismantled the Kaaba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit”. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 128].



Also there is this:

Qusai ruled as a King. He reconstructed the Kaaba from a state of decay, and made the Arab people build their houses around it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qusai_ibn_Kilab

Qusai ibn Kilab was an ancestor of Mohammed and lived about 200 years before him. He rebuilt that "one and only sanctuary revered by all the Arabs" you are going on about from a pile of rubble, and of course as a pagan shrine. THEN he founded the city of Mecca.

So if this was such an important centre for "all the Arabs" why was it abandoned, in a state of decay? Where did "all the Arabs" worship before Qusai rebuilt it?

And does this square up with such an "important" "unique" sanctuary "revered by all the Arabs" ?

He "rebuilt" the Kaaba, that apparently "unique" temple "revered by all the Arabs" from a pile of rubble, and in effect founded Mecca.

It was one of the many Tawaghit shrines at the time. Read Ishaq 38.

So what was the Kaaba before then?

We are told byMuslim scholar Ibn al-Kalbi, in his Book of Idols
.
“Luhayy went to a hot spring in Syria to be cured. During his stay he noticed that the locals worshipped idols. ‘What are these things?’ he asked. To which they replied, ‘We pray to them for rain and for victory over enemies.’ Luhayy asked the Syrians for some of their stones. They agreed and he took them back to Mecca where he erected them around the Ka’aba.”


So we know from ISLAMIC sources that the Kaaba in reality started as a money making scam, which was further exploited and expanded by Qusayy, and finally turned into a Muslin "shrine" with various cock amd bull stories about Abraham and Ishmael, but retaining all the rites and rules.

Mecca, even at Mohammed's time, was a miserable hovel. with perhaps a few hundred people, if that. There was some little sanctuary, made from raw rocks and no mortar, and a pile of stone idols looking little different from the "building", and much the same as many other such shrines. "THE ONE" shrine revered by ALL the Arabs? Really....


In the classical era, Mecca did not exist at all, and it would have been pretty much uninhabitable. A miserable spec of dust on between the toes of the world. What is more the location of later Mecca would not have been seen as part of "Arabia".

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:29 pm
by manfred
Nowhere in Diodorus' account, which speaks of one temple revered by all the Arabs.


Diodurus, as shown a dozen times by now, does not speak of "ONE temple". You are making that part up, as your own quote shows it.

A very sacred temple has been established there which is highly revered by all the Arabs.”

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:47 am
by Eagle
Nothing is being read into Diodorus' statement which isnt there. Nobody said he knew that this specific temple was the only one revered by all the Arabs and neither did he have to, to validate his observation about one temple universally revered by all Arabs, and this includes the nomadic and sedentary population of the region. In the whole history of the region, not a single temple ever fit the description other than the one in Mecca.

As to Mecca, it was explained why no mention exists of it prior to Islam. The argument from silence does not work as it would for the Jerusalem temple, as no archeological survey was ever done on site. The flimsy stories of Gibson, and the parallels with Petra were all adressed and shown to be leaps of faith if not outright deceptions.

The hadith about the prophet repairing the kaaba was already adressed a few posts back and those seeking to misuse it were put in their proper place.

And again, nothing new, and not even remotely relevant. Every wordly monument is bound to fall into decay and eventually need major reparations. This hapenned many times to the Kaaba itself and the Muslim sources attest to it. Qusay goes back to the 5th century, much later than Diodorus, and did not build the Kaaba but repaired it. This is because by his time, the superstitions and innovations associated with the temple had reached a point where its custodians, those supposed to look after it and maintain it, the Quraysh, out of respect placed their houses far from it and would therefore only come to it for the yearly occasions to attend the visiting pilgrims. It is only expected then that it would fall into a state of decay especially of one considers the kind of natural disasters, especially flash floods that are known to affect the area.

And again, nothing new, and more irrelevant tangents. Luhayy was the instigator to have initiated the Meccan trend of stacking the pre-existing Kaaba with idols. He did not build it.
The accumulation and piling up of idols above idols was due to the complacency and unrestrictedness that the Meccans and the custodians of the Kaaba felt as time went on, regarding the status of the Kaaba and its original dedication to Allah alone. The exact same thing hapenned to the Jerusalem temple. In fact the Quraysh descendants would argue to the prophet Muhammad that had their innovations been harmful to the worship of Allah, whom they believed in as the sole supreme creator, then Allah Himself would have prevented them and their forefathers from doing so 16:35,6:148"Those who are polytheists will say: 'Had Allah wished we would not have associated (aught with Him) nor our fathers, nor would we have forbidden anything.' So did belie those who were before them until they tasted Our punishment. Say: 'Have you any knowledge with you to adduce for Us? You follow nothing but conjecture, and you are nothing but idle talkers'".
It was fairly common in those ancient times for ideologies and religious beliefs to be exchanged through migrations and travels, as well as economical interests as was obviously the case of the custodians of the Kaaba who desired to attract as many far away people as already were coming, to the yearly pilgrimage, even puting portraits of Jesus and Mary on the Kaaba's wall according to tradition.

But again, all this is besides the point; where is the temple revered by all the Arabs of the 1st century?

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:43 am
by manfred
one temple universally revered by all Arabs....


not one, "a temple". A big difference.


The hadith about the prophet repairing the kaaba was already adressed a few posts back and those seeking to misuse it were put in their proper place.


How pompous of you. The hadith says nothing at about Mohammed trying to "repair" the Kaaba, but he says he wanted to knock it down, or put some doors on it, as a joke.

Every wordly monument is bound to fall into decay and eventually need major reparations.


Even a pile of rubble.... If the Kaaba was so important, then it would not be allowed to decay.

Quraysh, out of respect placed their houses far from it

Source? And if that was true we have a "shrine" in the middle of nowhere with no people there.

Luhayy was the instigator to have initiated the Meccan trend of stacking the pre-existing Kaaba with idols.


He was adding some more. You cannot simply change a shrine in ways that the worshippers would find offensive.

What he did though is to start the Kaaba scam. He is the beginning, not "Abraham".

Then Qusayy came along and decided he and his tribe "had a better claim" on the Kaaba. He did more or less exactly as Mohammed did: he took the Kaaba by force, set himself up as a kind of king, moved into the biggest house and collected tribute, running the Kaaba as a scam. His reason for the "better claim" is both preposterous and stupid. His tribe were the "purer" descendants of Ishmael. In a society without written records, that is a very silly thing to say. And he merely brought this idea from his time in the real Arabia, much further north, in modern Syria.

Mohammed merely repeated the process. He also thought he had a "better claim", moved into the largest house, collected tributes and acted like a king. New owner, new scam. And of course the daft idea of Qusay gave Mohammed the bright idea to use it again, and elaborate a little on the tall story. So Abraham got involved with te Kaaba, an utter nonsense, if ever you saw one.

It was fairly common in those ancient times for ideologies and religious beliefs to be exchanged through migrations and travels, as well as economical interests as was obviously the case of the custodians of the Kaaba who desired to attract as many far away people as already were coming, to the yearly pilgrimage, even puting portraits of Jesus and Mary on the Kaaba's wall according to tradition.


In the first century BC the desert of Arabia was virtually uninhabited. Who would want to go there? And the trade was mostly done by sea.

But again, all this is besides the point; where is the temple revered by all the Arabs of the 1st century?


Nowhere. There were many such temples, and you had this answered many times. If you keep writing the same nonsense, it does not make it better. But it seems you are just repeating it for trolling effect....

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:55 pm
by Eagle
No theres no difference between one and an indefinite temple when only a specific one is qualified as being revered by all Arabs, none other is ever given this qualification, and when every historian knows that there is only one that ever served that purpose in the area. So where is that only temple qualified as such in the 1st century?

The hadith with the prophet saying he wants to do construction work on the Kaaba is about repairing it, extending it and renewing it, which he did, as others before him and will be done after him, as shown in the longer version less appealing to the deception hunters.

Qusay did not force anybody for the Kaaba's guardianship, neither did he live in any palace. And here we have again, long before the prophet Muhammad, the invocation to Abraham and his connection to the Kaaba with no other reason than the legacy being known, faithfully orally transmitted (and oral tradition in any culture, precedes the writing of that tradition), established, accepted by all those who revered the Kaaba. The Kaaba wasnt a pile of rubble when Qusay was entrusted with it, it needed repair that's it. Pilgrimmage occurs once a year, outside of it, the custodians must maintain it and protect it from natural hazards the likes of which were depicted in a previous post, which they didnt as they had moved their houses far from it, beyond the surrounding hills and in ravines.

Luhayy put the first idol in the temple, brought it from outside the Arabian Peninsula. Before that, it was dedicated to Allah alone and all the Arabs flocked to it for that purpose "0 'Amr! you have invented various gods; At Mecca - idols around the House. And there was for the House One Lord from ever; But you have made for it several lords (which are now worshipped) by the people. Surely you should know that Allah is in no hurry; Soon He will choose for (His) House stewards other than you".

By the way, the Arabian peninsula was known for gold mines and silver mines even piror to Islam, which allowed Arab merchants to travel and be well-suited middle-men. Gold is present, the archaelogical evidences for mines is present and these mines are being accessed today.

As to the prophet, as already discussed, he never appeals to his Ishmaelite descendancy to increase his credibility, in fact he used to condemn the Arabs for their constant boasting about their lineage, and if he did claim the legacy, as already shown, it would create more problems for his critics, neither did he gain tributes from the Kaaba following Mecca's conquest, neither did he keep the keys of the temple (which were returned to the guardians after it was cleansed from the idols), neither did he live in any palace, as anyone who knows the state of his finances all throughout his life and until his death.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:28 pm
by manfred
eagle wrote:No theres no difference between one and an indefinite temple when only a specific one is qualified as being revered by all Arabs


but that is what your Muslims desperation brings to to the text, and not what it actually says.

The hadith with the prophet saying he wants to do construction work on the Kaaba is about repairing it


really?

“Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance I would have dismantled the Kaaba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit”. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 128].


eagle wrote:Qusay did not force anybody for the Kaaba's guardianship, neither did he live in any palace. And here we have again, long before the prophet Muhammad, the invocation to Abraham and his connection to the Kaaba with no other reason than the legacy being known,


Tabari, relying on Traditions collected by Ishaq, reports:
“The Arabs, recognizing their religious duty, accompanied Qusayy. Marching to the Ka’aba they said, ‘We have better right to this than you.’ At that they opposed one another and began to fight. A fierce battle broke out, as a result of which...Qusayy wrested from them the privileges which had been in their hands, thus denying them.”


Ishaq:49
“Qusayy thought he had a better right to the Ka’aba and to rule over Mecca than the Khuza’a since the Quraysh were the most noble and pure descendants of Ishmael.”


There is no evidence at all that ANY Arab, let alone the Quraish specially, had any connections whatever with Ishmael.Qusayy fooled the Quraish by making them feel better than others, a by baseless claims about himself., and became a self-appointed ruler. And Mohammed, well, he told his followers they are the best of people and all others the worst of animals, that he was a "prophet", and people followed him too. Copycat Mo.

Tabari VI:20
“He called upon his fellow tribesmen, the Quraysh, to expel the Khuza’a and seize Mecca for themselves. They accepted his proposal and swore an oath of allegiance to him.”


Ishaq:52
“Thus Qusayy gained authority over the Ka’aba and the lordship over the people of Mecca. He behaved like a king over his tribe so they made him a king.


Tabari VI:25

“Qusayy’s tribe held him in honor and high esteem. No one opposed his rule in any way.” “His commands were never disobeyed and nothing he did was opposed.Qusayy had a house built in Mecca which was the house of assembly in which the Quraysh used to decide their affairs.”




EAGLE wrote:Luhayy put the first idol in the temple, brought it from outside the Arabian Peninsula. Before that, it was dedicated to Allah alone and all the Arabs flocked to it for that purpose "0 'Amr! you have invented various gods; At Mecca - idols around the House. And there was for the House One Lord from ever; But you have made for it several lords (which are now worshipped) by the people. Surely you should know that Allah is in no hurry; Soon He will choose for (His) House stewards other than you".


Allah was and is a reddish brown stone, today part of the Kaaba, and clearly entirely devoid of even the slightest connection to the God of the Jews. As all such shrines, they sometimes had a single idol, or sometimes several. In adding some more he merely "increased importance" of the shrine, so there was no objection. Before Luhayy, the idols were at least two, Hubal and Allah.

And the rock idol Allah was related to the Moon, as Mohammed acknowledged:

Bukhari:V6B60N374
“We were in the Prophet’s company in the middle of the lunar month. He looked at the moon and said, ‘You will see your Lord as you see this moon.’”


By the way, the Arabian peninsula was known for gold mines and silver mines even piror to Islam, which allowed Arab merchants to travel and be well-suited middle-men. Gold is present, the archaelogical evidences for mines is present and these mines are being accessed today.


That was a relatively modest part of the trade. The "bread and butter" was leather goods, incense and various perfumes, some spices and herbs. There were land routes, but if at all possible the sea was used. And Mecca never was any source of any such goods, including gold, nor a useful way point for trade.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:28 pm
by Eagle
It says exactly that, no desperation required. No temple in the history of the Arabian Peninsula was ever qualified as revered by all Arabs except the Kaaba. If there was any other at any point, the revisionists would have shown it but they never will. And since they cant, they wont answer the question as to which temple was universally revered by the Arabs in the 1st century.

The prophet did exactly as he said in that hadith, he repaired, renewed and extended the Kaaba as detailed in the longer hadith. Thats nothing new in the history of the monument, was done twice in his life, many other times before and after too.

As to lineage, the starting point of studies on the Arabs concerning their origin, culture and religious identity should start from their own sources (let alone the other evidences brought up in this thread, including Josephus and the established Jewish traditions as well as Biblical references). This is a well-recognized modus operandi in ethno-historical studies of a group of people.

And the revisionists still need to account for the difficulty of having pre islamic people claiming connection between the Kaaba and Abraham in a complete vacuum.

Qusay did not fight for the Kaaba's guardianship, it was entrusted to him after the death of his father in law. He lived in the house of assembly, how is that a palace?

So what does the Ishmaelite legacy have anything to do with the Jewish religion that came long later with Moses? As to the black stone fixed on one of the pillars of the edifice, which is nothing but one of the original stones Abraham used to build the Kaaba, the altar to God as he did throughout his journeys, establishing altars and worship sites along his way Gen12:6-8,13:4,18, a practice he left to his posterity that similarly built places of worship symbolized by stones erected as pillars Gen28:10,18-22. Whatever the origin of the Black Stone and whatever the origin of stone worship in Arabia, the pre-Islamic Arabs, neither of Mecca nor of the other places, are never found to have worshipped the Black Stone of the Kaaba. Neither was the Black Stone of the Kaaba symbolical of stone worship, nor were the Prophets Ibrahim or his righteous descendants that emulated his practice stone worshippers on account of their erection of stone pillars as “altars unto God”.

It is Luhayy who brought Hubal, a foreign deity, the first idol, and the people certainly objected as shown. Allah was never an idol within the Kaaba, the Kaaba was dedicated to Him. And there is nothing in the hadith associating Him to the moon. To suggest otherwise reveals poor reading skills.

And sure, Mecca wasnt part of any trade route as stated many posts back. It only was active once a year for the annual pilgrimage that only concerned the Arabs.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:30 pm
by Eagle
As a side note concerning the mines of the Arabian desert, serious mining began 3000 years ago in it. More than 1000 ancient mines were uncovered, besides those that were lost to bigger mining projects upon the same grounds. Vast reserves are still awaiting extraction. Biblical scholars even argue that the Cradle of Gold in the creation account might be located in the Mahd adh-Dhahab area of the Hijaz, between Mecca and Medina, which might also be the true location of Solomon's mines given the  huge quantities of waste rock, an estimated million tons, left by the ancient miners, still containing traces of gold. No other mine of the ancient world in the region could have supplied Solomon as described. The mine is even still in activity today.

Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:55 pm
by manfred
Eagle I have quoted you the historical sources, and you promptly proceed to rewrite them. Now for the last time... when a writer from the first century BC says there was A temple "revered by all the Arabs", in an area most likely to be the entrance to the gulf of Aqaba, this does not, not even slightly, amount to any evidence in a Kaaba in Mecca, a place not yet in existence. Whatever place he meant, it is 100% certain NOT to be Mecca.

The source does not say "the one temple" but "a temple".

"There is a Cathedral in Chartes admired by all the Christians." This does not mean really "all", without a single exeption, nor does it mean there are no cathedrals anywhere else in similar esteem.

The prophet did exactly as he said in that hadith, he repaired, renewed and extended the Kaaba as detailed in the longer hadith.


He did the OPPOSITE to what he said in that hadith.
Mohammed WANTED to dismantle the Kaaba, but he knew he would create problems. So he did not risk it, and invented the Abraham fairy tale instead. The hadith I quoted did not say he dismantled the Kaaba, but that he WANTED to do that. He did not have the courage, so he decided to make it "Islamic" instead. What the hadith clearly shows is that not even Mohammed believed the nonsense about Abraham.


As to lineage, the starting point of studies on the Arabs concerning their origin, culture and religious identity should start from their own sources


There are no Arab sources about Ibrahim before Islam. In fact there is no writing, almost none. Civilisation had passed the Arabs by. And the "arabs" Josephus mentioned are the people of Petra. People in the deserts would at his time not even be "Arabs". Just wild people.

And the revisionists still need to account for the difficulty of having pre islamic people claiming connection between the Kaaba and Abraham in a complete vacuum.


It is the Muslim version of history that is revisionist. There are no pre-Muslim sources about any such claims, so there is nothing to account for. Abraham and the Kaaba really is too stupid to be taken seriously. You want me to "account for" Snowwhite and the seven dwarfs too?

Qusay did not fight for the Kaaba's guardianship, it was entrusted to him after the death of his father in law. He lived in the house of assembly, how is that a palace?


Read the sources, I quoted them for you. They do not agree with you. And the "house of assembly" was the largest building in Mecca, Qusayy's main residence, and the place he held court. In short, a palace.