Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Is it important? That's a matter of perspective. If you're trying to prove that the Nabataean religion has a semi-Yahwist nature it is.

The literary evidence starts with Josephus. A constant tradition, among Jews and Christians, identifies Kadesh-barnea with Petra, and this as early as the time of Josephus, who says that Aaron died on a mountain near Petra (Ant., IV, iv, 7) The Targum of Onkelos (on Numbers 34:4) renders Kadesh-barnea by "Reqem of the G'aia". Reqem is the Nabataean name for Petra and means "many-colored"-was due to the many-colored rocks near Petra. According to biblical scholars g'aia means outcry - but its meaning comes from West-Semitic: valley. Eusebius also (in Onomasticon under the word "Barne") connects Kadesh with Petra.

The validity of Josephus statement on the Ishmaelic tradition in Nabata (and thus male circumcision and the nature of its religion) can only be verified by
1) comparing ancient Samaritan rituals with those from Nabatean Petra as they are almost identical;
2) analyzing the (central) role of Aaron in Samaritan liturgy, early Islamic writings and Petra.
3) analyzing names inspired by religious customs and liturgy. For instance Abraham is known as Abiram in a Nabataean context.
4) cleaning the pre-Islamic pantheon that merely exists in the minds of scholars. Check the latest publication from Robert Kerr on Hubal for instance. Deutsche gründlichkeit!

Work in progress.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

"On certain festivals and particularly on occasions of marriage and circumcision, they fix a wooden cross, dressed in red cloth and adorned at the top with feathers, at the door of the person married or circumcised. At this signal the people collect and dance around the cross. They have a particular dance. The young men stand opposite their female partners, each advances, and the youth slightly kisses the shoulder of the maiden."
http://nabataea.net/today1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This suggests strongly that circumcision, like marriage, was a rite of passage. In the case of circumcision, the passing from childhood to manhood, in marriage, when similar rituals were used, from single man to married man.

This is not the same as Jewish circumcision. The Jewish ritual is a "belonging" ritual, like a statement of a fact. It is not really a "transition" from one state to another. A Jewish boy who was for whatever reason, say medical, not circumcised is still Jewish.

A Jewish circumcision must be on the eighth day after birth, or near to it, unless there are medical reasons. Some babies, such as haemophiliacs, do not get circumcised.

Someone, often the baby’s godmother or godfather, carries the baby into the room and hands him to the sandek, the person who holds the baby during the circumcision. The sandek is often a grandparent. Before circumcising the baby, the mohel (circumciser) recites the blessing:

Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who hast sanctified us with Thy command­ments, and hast given us the command con­cerning circumcision.

As soon as the mohel begins the circumcision the father (or, in some cases, both parents) recites:

Blessed art Thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who hast sanctified us with Thy commandments, and hast commanded us to make our sons enter the covenant of Abraham our father.

All present then respond: “Even as this child has entered into the covenant, so may he enter into the Torah, the nuptial canopy, and into good deeds.” Sefaria has the Hebrew text of all the circumcision blessings.

The mohel then takes a cup of wine and recites over it a prayer for the infant in which the mohel gives the infant his Hebrew name. A drop or two of the wine is placed in the infant’s mouth and, traditionally, the father drinks some of the wine and saves the rest for the mother. Historically, the mother was not in the room for the circumcision; today, many mothers opt to witness the entire ceremony.

After the ceremony there us usually a meal.

This does not match the description of a Muslim circumcision, nor a Nabatean one.

And female circumcision is at the very least tolerated in Islam, but not in Judaism. I have no data on the Nabatean take on that. Have you?

In fact, male circumcision has been around for a very long time in the region and has been practised by a whole host of cultures, each using it to signify different things.. There are some who have even used it as a punishment for prisoners of war....

The Nabatean religion is more or less the same as the peninsular Arabs practised before Islam, with many of the deities the same. So it seems rather obvious that the religion, alongside with the Nabatean version of circumcision, made its way into the Arab peninsular through the Nabatean traders.

Judaism also made its way to the peninsula, but Jews do not generally seek converts. So there were two superficially similar rituals but with different purposes and ascribed to different deities.

So how did Josephus reach his conclusion about Ishmael? Simple... it was the JEWISH perceived wisdom of his day. The worshippers, of the Mountain Lord, Manat, Allat and al-Uzza as well as Hubal are highly unlikely see themselves as children of Abraham... they would be aware or the religion of the Jews but it would make no sense for them to say that their ancestor had one deity but he was wrong .... would it?

Most of their deities were in fact also "imports", from Egypt, Rome and Persia...

Having said that, the origin of YHWH is a complex question. The Genesis term El Shaddai means "God of the mountain" which does suggest that he started off is ways similar to other deities in the region, as a mountain God. But that is speculation.
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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Well I do realize that there are differences in rituals. But these differences may have developed over time.
And female circumcision is at the very least tolerated in Islam, but not in Judaism. I have no data on the Nabatean take on that. Have you?
No, I don't. I don't think that female circumcision is part of the Islamic doctrine but mote a cultural inheritance from conquered territories that needed regulation in a later stage. So the Abbasids produced some hadeeth on this topic.
So how did Josephus reach his conclusion about Ishmael? Simple... it was the JEWISH perceived wisdom of his day. The worshippers, of the Mountain Lord, Manat, Allat and al-Uzza as well as Hubal are highly unlikely see themselves as children of Abraham... they would be aware or the religion of the Jews but it would make no sense for them to say that their ancestor had one deity but he was wrong .... would it?
Hubal has been eliminated from the pantheon three weeks ago - it's just a honorary title, like Baal Shamin, used in the Sinai. But there's much more to it. How would you define Judaism? Archeology shows very convincingly that there were multiple forms. Forms were Yahweh was partnered survived at different places outside Palestine. For instance with the Jews from Elaphantine in Egypt an probably with the Nabataeans in Petra. Manat, Kore and al-Uzza are manifestations of one single goddess, Allat. I will address this later.
Having said that, the origin of YHWH is a complex question. The Genesis term El Shaddai means "God of the mountain" which does suggest that he started off is ways similar to other deities in the region, as a mountain God. But that is speculation.
It's not. Actually I am trying to be cautious while there's a power option. The Jerusalem and Samaritan Pentateuch differ only on one single value: the one and only location of God's temple and associated mountain.- so it's Mount Gerizim versus Golgotha. It doesn't make sense that both claims are true and then there's even the Jewish temple of Elephantine - according to its citizens the original temple of Yahweh. So maybe they are all fake? It isn't that hard to draw conclusions after:
- reading Josephus description of the Jewish Temple and fortress Antonia; did you ever look at the Praetorian headquarters in Rome or identical fortresses in Syria that share the same design.
- the knowledge that Zion suddenly becomes Jerusalem in the Hebrew Bible - books not recognized by the Samaritans;
It would make much more sense if these temples (and actually there were more) have a common origin.

All in all I prefer to take the cautious route. You can't rewrite the entire history.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

I don't think that female circumcision is part of the Islamic doctrine but mote a cultural inheritance from conquered territories that needed regulation in a later stage. So the Abbasids produced some hadeeth on this topic.
Well, a cultural practice has origins too.

As to the hadith being fabricated, that I cannot prove or disprove, but I can say this: 1) Muslims BELIEVE it to be authentic. 2) Mohammed said or did nothing to suggest that the practice was against Islam.
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:I take it you have asked him, as you provide no evidence for what you say....

Josephus never once speaks of the Hijaz or Mecca... the "hizaz" is a virtually uninhabited wilderness at the time of his writing, and Mecca was not founded until at least 400 years later.

And the Nabateans did not regard themselves as "descendants of Ishmael" because they had no connections to the religion of the Jews. How would you claim a Jewish ancestry but at the same time follow a polytheistic religion? How many "descendants of Mohammed" call themselves Hindus? The JEWS of the time of Josephus saw them as possible related to Ishmael. The Nabateans themselves had a different self-image.

If anything, the people in the hijaz, such as they were, adopted some of the cultural ideas of the Nabateans,through trading contacts, such as the worship of al-Uzza for example, as is the eventual construction of more permanent settlements, but much later. The original "Arabs", as Josephus shows us, were the people of what is today southern Syria and Jordan, give and take a bit, plus the coastal regions of the gulf or Aqaba, on both sides. NOT the Arab peninsula at all. The people from the Arab peninsula are different cultures entirely, mostly nomadic, and only later acquired an "Arab" identity based on the Nabatean cultural influences they had submitted to.
As already said, there are many points in the Israelites' timeline during which the whole nations' religious state had nothing to do with the religion of Abraham, Isaac or Moses. And what does the Jewish religion have to do with the Ishmaelite legacy? Josephus says that the Arabians of his time practiced certain rites specifically in commemoration of Abraham and Ishmael, meaning this "self image" as Ishmaelites is already established. Further the nomadic nature of the ancient inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula agrees with the Torah's description of both Ishmael as a hunter gatherer of the desertic wilderness and some of his sons.

Josephus' words are obvious. He isnt conveying some biased information in favor of anyone, but transmitting a knowledge accepted and established by both those concerned and the Children of Israel. The area he describes is much vaster than that of the later northern Nabateans and their Petra capital, who themselves originated from the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula. These northern Nabateans, Ishmaelites, did not come from Canaan.

As to Mecca, of course it was an unknown and unexplored area at the time, and it had been explained why. This doesnt negate its existence.

There is evidence much prior to Islam or Christianity's advent, of references to a singular Temple in Arabia by Greek historians, which mentions the Temple being venerated by all of Arabia. For example Muir and other orientalists, as well as Bible scholars quote Diodorus Siculus speaking in the 1st century BC of a "temple" in Arabia which was "greatly revered by all the Arabs" and all conclude, like anyone aware of the location's historicity that it cannot be anything else than the Meccan Kaaba. The Encyclopaedia Britannica further adds that the first to wrap the shrine in a veil was a pious King of the Homerites, who reigned 700 years before the advent of Islam.

There is a reason why the Quran refers to Mecca as umm al qura/the mother of the towns 6:92,42:7. Edward Gibbon equally recognizes "the genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era".

The fact is, no other Temple has ever served as a central point of pilgrimage, despite the fact that Arabia, during these days, had temples all throughout the region that were all established subsequently to and in imitation of the Meccan Kaaba, such as Abraha's Yemeni Kaaba. It is because of such prominence of the Kaaba that Abraha marched towards it to destroy it. Sura Fil refers to this episode.

But none of those shrines were older than the Kaaba, nor was any one of them regarded by the Arabs as of similar antiquity and commanding comparable veneration. The Arabs identified Mecca originally as Becca as corroborated in the Quran in addition that it is the first monument of worship of the One God and that it will remain so 3:95-99. It is also mentionned several times as the Ancient/Atiq House because it was so old that it came to be known throughout Arabia by that name 22:29,33 and its history went back to the days of Ibrahim and Ismail 2:125. The word Atiq conveys also the meaning of honor and reverance since it had been made sacred by God 27:91.

Again, we have an author, Siculus, writing about ALL Arabs revering a singular Temple. The only one which ever commanded the universal homage in Arabia, was the one in Mecca, then the very idea that there is none is a statement divorced from reality and not grounded in any historical or traditional evidence. We're not speaking of pyramids or some monuments no longer used, but of a living monument kept in high regard by an entire population past, present and future. We're not talking of a single person making a grandiose claim on the origins of a population and its hometown, but of an entire population's claims based on ancestral knowledge.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
That's of course irrelevant. Josephus makes an observation of the Nabataean nation in the first century AD. Narrators from the third and fourth century make the same observation. Then he explains that Petra was formally known as Arkem or Arekem. Nice try though.

Did you know that in the ninth century Armenian scholars identified Arkem or Arekem as Mecca ?
He speaks of the descendants of Ishmael and how they called the area they lived in a little less than 2000 years ago. No Petra in their time.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:
"On certain festivals and particularly on occasions of marriage and circumcision, they fix a wooden cross, dressed in red cloth and adorned at the top with feathers, at the door of the person married or circumcised. At this signal the people collect and dance around the cross. They have a particular dance. The young men stand opposite their female partners, each advances, and the youth slightly kisses the shoulder of the maiden."
http://nabataea.net/today1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This suggests strongly that circumcision, like marriage, was a rite of passage. In the case of circumcision, the passing from childhood to manhood, in marriage, when similar rituals were used, from single man to married man.

This is not the same as Jewish circumcision. The Jewish ritual is a "belonging" ritual, like a statement of a fact. It is not really a "transition" from one state to another. A Jewish boy who was for whatever reason, say medical, not circumcised is still Jewish.
The question is what does the specific age of 13 have anything to do with manhood? This is the age at which the Arabians spoken of by Josephus circumcised their boys. Of course Jewish circumcision, dine at the 8th day, is different than the one practiced by the Ishmaelites.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

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The question is what does the specific age of 13 have anything to do with manhood?
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

Good joke aside, of course not every male reaches sexual maturity at the same age.

As a side note, one of the most outstanding manner in which one can verify the truthfulness of God's words, despite their successive destructions and scattering that almost took the Bani Israel to the brink of racial extinction, they have nevertheless remained and regenerated because they are linked with God by a covenant and similarily the Bani Ismail who were bound by an everlasting covenant, despite having almost entirely, besides the scattered hanif remnants, plunged into a state of spiritual ignorance (jahiliya) for thousands of years, nevertheless maintained their ancestral identity until their spiritual revival.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Eagle wrote:
He speaks of the descendants of Ishmael and how they called the area they lived in a little less than 2000 years ago. No Petra in their time.
Let me then rephrase the dilemma. Why does Josephus describe Nabataea as an Ishmaelic and Abrahamic nation?
Of this wife were born to Ishmael twelve sons: Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Idumas, Masmaos, Massaos, Chodad, Theman, Jetur, Naphesus, Kadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates, to the Red Sea: and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these: both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraham their father.
Josephus was born and lived in Jerusalem, (just a few miles outside Nabataea) so could have observed the Nabataean religious customs and traditions from first hand. He must have had countless encounters with Nabataeans as all Semitic roads in his days led to Petra. So why is his statement faulty?
Last edited by Takeiteasynow on Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Well well well ...

Taken from Dan Gibson's website:
Ptolemaeus lists places like Wadi Rumm (Iram) in southern Jordan, in his list of cities in Arabia Felix. (Aramava-Geogr. 6.7.27). Thus, many of the characteristics that ancient writers attributed to Arabia Felix can also be applied to the Nabataeans, and southern Nabataea in particular.
According to Strabo, XVI.iv.21 "The Nabataeans and Sabaeans, situated above Syria, are the first people who occupy Arabia Felix. They were frequently in the habit of overrunning this country before the Romans became masters of it, but at present both they and the Syrians are subject to the Romans. The capital of the Nabataeans is called Petra …"
The peninsula was never part of the Arab world before the rise of Islam. So Josephus' statement on the Arab nation is precisely that what can be expected. It matches perfect will all the other available evidence indicating that the Quran is of Syrian origin. The Quran is of Nabataean origin - no need to discuss the fact that it's first edition was published in 'modernized' Nabataean script. The Quran is the holy book of the Abrahamic Arabian nation of Nabataea.

And it's only logical: Petra or Reqem was the center of "Happy Arabia" in the days of Strabo, Josephus and Ptolemaeus. Now there's enough material to build a conclusive case.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

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The point I tried to make is first that the Nabatean religion as we know it is not monotheistic. There are overlaps with other ME religions of their days, but not much with Judaism. So somehow "Abraham" does not really fit as a role model for the Nabateans. Therefore I am not sure of this notion of the "Ishmaelites" is a real Nabatean one or simply a Hebrew projection.

And Josephus describes quite clearly the the extent of the land of Nabateans. If anything, he states it as somewhat larger than we assume today from other sources. The important point is that the Hijaz and/or Mecca was not included in that land. That is why I said Arabia meant something different in antiquity.

Mohammed's genealogists cannot agree which son/tribe of the "Ishmaelites" Mohammed belongs to. The answer is obvious... NONE of them.

So, whatever the Nabateans suggested about their ancestry, Mohammed merely "borrowed" such ideas to cloak himself in respectability. Mohammed was not a Nabatean, and by ancient standards not even an "Arab" proper.

What today is Saudi Arabia would be called "Arabia deserta" by the Romans, the deserted (=empty) Arabia, and the Nabatean land was called "Arabia Petraea" the Arabia of Petra. "Arabia Felix" (the happy Arabia) was also the Nabatean land. LATER that also included Yemen, as some Nabateans settled there.
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

eagle wrote:Good joke aside, of course not every male reaches sexual maturity at the same age.
... and the Muslim rule about circumcision is it should be BEFORE the first ejaculation (or first period according to most scholars), so it it clearly linked to puberty ....
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Eagle wrote:
He speaks of the descendants of Ishmael and how they called the area they lived in a little less than 2000 years ago. No Petra in their time.
Let me then rephrase the dilemma. Why does Josephus describe Nabataea as an Ishmaelic and Abrahamic nation?
Of this wife were born to Ishmael twelve sons: Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Idumas, Masmaos, Massaos, Chodad, Theman, Jetur, Naphesus, Kadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates, to the Red Sea: and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these: both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraham their father.
Josephus was born and lived in Jerusalem, (just a few miles outside Nabataea) so could have observed the Nabataean religious customs and traditions from first hand. He must have had countless encounters with Nabataeans as all Semitic roads in his days led to Petra. So why is his statement faulty?

Josephus statement isnt faulty. He is making an independent observation based on transmitted knowledge available to him. Those earlier Ishmaelites he is speaking of, not his contemporaries, that scattered from the Euphrates to the Red Sea called their territory Nabatea. This must include the south western parts of the Arabian Peninsula, since it is from there that the northern Nabateans whose capital was Petra, originated.

Strabo speaks of northern Nabateans at an unspecified time invading Arabia Felix, which was already inhabited. What exactly is the point?

The Peninsula, in the 1st century was of course part of the Arab world. Its apellation itself testifies to it.
There are no maps from the 1st century that delineate Arabia, all that is available are accounts of geographers, historians, and contemporary travelers. The territory covers present day eastern Egypt, including the Sinai Peninsula, southern Israel, Jordan, and parts of Syria and Iraq, all of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and the Gulf States on the Persian Gulf.

So the Quran is Syrian but written in Nabatean script?
Last edited by Eagle on Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

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manfred wrote:
Mohammed's genealogists cannot agree which son/tribe of the "Ishmaelites" Mohammed belongs to. The answer is obvious... NONE of them.

So, whatever the Nabateans suggested about their ancestry, Mohammed merely "borrowed" such ideas to cloak himself in respectability. Mohammed was not a Nabatean, and by ancient standards not even an "Arab" proper.

People can be part of a tribal group that ultimately traces their ancestry to a specific person, and not know their full geneology upto that person. It happens all the time for tribal groups, let alone the Arabs, who were more keen on lineage.

Can the Queen of England trace her detailed lineage up 5000 years which is roughly the interval between Muhammad and Ismail? Whenever the prophet mentioned the names of his forefathers he did not proceed beyond Adnan, and ordered that others too should do the same because he held that what was commonly known amongst the Arabs regarding that portion of the pedigree (which they all traced up to Ismail) could hardly be entirely true, obviously, going back so far would be virtually impossible to trace with 100% certainty and would be futile.

It is also to be noted that the Arabs knew very well who belonged to each tribe, and those who tried claiming otherwise by associating themselves with other clans, especially with those higher casts like the Quraysh. Tradition has recorded the names of several people who attempted faking their genealogy and tribal affiliations, like Akhnas ibn Shurayq or Walid ibn Mughirah.

To those who attempt painting the prophet Muhammad as the initiator to have claimed descendency from Abraham in order to justify his claim of prophethood, then the burden is upon them to establish that he was unique in his claim. Muhammad made no proclamations of this fact, because it was already recognized in Arabian society that he was a descendant of Ishmael, and that further this issue of lineage was not even unique, especially in Mecca. So how could Muhammad's prophethood rest on claims that weren't unique to him? Further, not a single Meccan sura proves this. Muhammad claiming his prophethood was based upon the inimitability of the Quran during the period in Mecca. How does that correlate with the claim regarding the mission of Muhammad resting purely on this claim?

Also, the Jews primarily lived in Medina, and Muhammad did not face them until over ten years of preaching to his own people in Mecca. So if Muhammad was preaching to his people, who were idolaters and not People of the Book, why would he rely on his descent to Ishmael as proof of his prophethood? They were from the same line as him.

If we accept for the sake of argument regarding this mutual affiliation between the claim to Prophethood and the lineage of Ismail, than this would automatically mean that the Arabs themselves believed that Abraham was a Prophet of God, and Ishmael was a key figure of their history, worthy of veneration, and that a Prophet would arise from among the Ishmaelites. The religious beliefs of these patriarchs would obviously be respected in their eyes. The Ishmaelite tradition would have no value to them in regards to prophethood, unless they themselves understood that a Prophet would come from among them. So one would have to admit of the knowledge of Abraham and Ishmael in Arab tradition to even propose that argument. And if these figures were venerated in such a manner, then it would be rather easy for an Arab to weed out a false claimant to the lineage of Ishmael, because they would have been keen on preserving the purity of lineage.

The fact is Muhammad wasn't claiming anything in terms of lineage, nobody ever disputed that affiliation, whether the Madinan people of Yemeni origin, the pagans or hypocrites, the Jews or Christians, despite both the Quran and traditions reporting the calumnies and accusations of the enemies of the prophet and the Muslims. If there were the slightest of doubts about his descent, then this would have been made into a massive issue considering the core message of his prophethood centered around the revival of the way of Ibrahim.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:
eagle wrote:Good joke aside, of course not every male reaches sexual maturity at the same age.
... and the Muslim rule about circumcision is it should be BEFORE the first ejaculation (or first period according to most scholars), so it it clearly linked to puberty ....
All boys have their first ejaculation after 13?

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

People can be part of a tribal group that ultimately traces their ancestry to a specific person, and not know their full geneology upto that person. It happens all the time for tribal groups, let alone the Arabs, who were more keen on lineage.
There is no evidence at all that any people living in Mecca claimed to be descendants of Ishmael before Mohammed. And I can claim to be descendent from anyone I want, but that does not make it true. If you make a claim you must bring the proof.

To those who attempt painting the prophet Muhammad as the initiator to have claimed descendency from Abraham in order to justify his claim of prophethood, then the burden is upon them to establish that he was unique in his claim.
He was not unique in making claims like that. Nonetheless the burden of proof rests with those who say that claim is true. I suggest it is false and I further suggest a reason for Mohammed making it. So unless you can show that Mohammed really is a descendant of Ishmael, then you have no answer to that.

All boys have their first ejaculation after 13?
Red herring. Muslim circumcision in not at the 13 birthday, but broadly timed to immediately precede the onset of puberty, as defined in sharia. And this is not really the practice Josephus describes, is it?
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Eagle
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

The prophet Muhammad, as explained, did not appeal to Ishmael in support of his prophethood, and if he did, then this would raise even more problems to his critics, as already shown.

The question one should be asking one's self is how could Muhammad actually pass off the Kaaba as being built by Ibrahim, if the Arabs did not already believe it considering that Arab tribes had since antiquity been paying extensive homage to the Kaaba and its rites? It is the height of absurdity to say that in any culture, let alone Arab culture that prided itself in its ancestral origins to the point the Quran would warn them not to praise their forefathers a greater praise than for Allah, one would manage to fake not only his own identity but also that of an entire nation without anyone raising an eyebrow. This is worth emphasizing; for nothing was more obnoxious to an Arab than to ascribe a false or imaginary ancestry to him.
Even if we disregard these facts and suggest that the Arabs had a memory lapse, why would a people who had forgotten their common ancestor, accept the ancestor of another people as their ancestor too because the latter stated so, thus not only puting in question their identity but also compromising their claim on their prime religious site and by extension the economical benefits of being its custodians? Such an illegitimate attack on a people's known identity and its ancestral worship sites would have met with universal resistance, both from the preexisting idolatrous population of Mecca as well as from the Arab tribes.

Critics of Islam ignore these simple observations, forget that the starting point of studies on the Arabs concerning their origin, culture and religious identity should start from their own sources. This is a well-recognized modus operandi in ethno-historical studies of a group of people.


About the issue of circumcision, sure the manner Muslims do it nowadays follows very different timings (most now do it very soon after birth) than how the Arabs of Josephus' time did it. How is this relevant to what Josephus said and how it establishes the continuity of the Ishmaelite legacy on the Arabian Peninsula?

sum
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by sum »

I know that this relates to male circumcision but I could not resist posting it.

"Then We inspired you: 'Follow the religion of Ibrahim, the upright in Faith'."
(Qur'an 16:123)

And part of the religion of Ibrahim is circumcision.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The Prophet Ibrahim circumcised himself when he was eighty years old and he circumcised himself with an axe." (Related by Bukhari, Muslim & Ahmad.)

Ibn Abbas (r.a.) was asked "How old were you when the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) died?" He replied, "At that time I had been circumcised. At that time people did not circumcise the boys till they attained the age of puberty (Baligh)." (Bukhari)

If Ibrahim used an axe to self circumcise, did he hack the foreskin off with the axe or cut it off with a sharpened blade? All sorts of thoughts come to mind - he was clearly a macho man.

sum

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Centaur
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Centaur »

Ibrahim of Quran is a fictional character similar to Isa and Alexander of quran. Someone may well make a fictional Mohammed as well. For instance, Mohammad was an alien who lived on the dark side of the moon.
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