Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

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smarty84
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Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by smarty84 »

Hi Everyone.
Is there and reference of Khatna or Female Circumcision in Quran or Hadith?
If yes then please provide the reference.
Thank You

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

Mohammed suggested it is, when done the right way, "desirable" bot only for the male.
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
Sunan Abu Dawud 41:5251

This one suggests indirectly that it is expected, as it states that a bath is required when circumcised parts touch each other. Rather an odd way of talking, ad it suggests that if the woman is not circumcised, or if anal sex is involved a bath is not needed, but this is not how it was interpreted.
Abu Musa reported: There cropped up a difference of opinion between a group of Muhajirs (Emigrants and a group of Ansar (Helpers) (and the point of dispute was) that the Ansar said: The bath (because of sexual intercourse) becomes obligatory only-when the semen spurts out or ejaculates. But the Muhajirs said: When a man has sexual intercourse (with the woman), a bath becomes obligatory (no matter whether or not there is seminal emission or ejaculation). Abu Musa said: Well, I satisfy you on this (issue). He (Abu Musa, the narrator) said: I got up (and went) to 'A'isha and sought her permission and it was granted, and I said to her: 0 Mother, or Mother of the Faithful, I want to ask you about a matter on which I feel shy. She said: Don't feel shy of asking me about a thing which you can ask your mother, who gave you birth, for I am too your mother. Upon this I said: What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.
Sahih Muslim 3:684


There is no mention of this issue in the QUr'an, but almost all Muslim scholars agree that denying female circumcision or making it optional is "opposing shariah" which is fitna.
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frankie
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by frankie »

smarty84 wrote:Hi Everyone.
Is there and reference of Khatna or Female Circumcision in Quran or Hadith?
If yes then please provide the reference.
Thank You

smarty84
Although not held within the Quran as a direct command of Allah,FGM was a cultural practice at the time Mohammed lived, Mohammed just retained it for his invention he called Islam; the Islamic sources give the evidence.

Muslim scholarship has codified this barbaric practice in the Manual of Islamic jurisprudence called the Reliance of the Traveller, they get their authority to do this from Mohammed, their prophet, whose example is for all times and places.


Reliance of the Traveller BOOK E: PURIFICATION page 59 e4.3

Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. bazr) of the clitoris (n: not the clitoris itself, as some mistakenly assert). (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 399

" Narrated Jafar bin 'Amr bin Umaiya: ...

When the army aligned for the fight, Siba' came out and said, ‘Is there any (Muslim) to accept my challenge to a duel?’ Hamza bin 'Abdul Muttalib came out and said, ‘O Siba'. O Ibn Um Anmar, the one who circumcises other ladies! Do you challenge Allah and His Apostle?’ Then Hamza attacked and killed him, ...

(Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251)

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

Bukhari 5891; Muslim 527

Abu Hurayrah said: I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, trimming the moustache, cutting the nails and plucking the armpit hairs.”

Sahih Muslim 3.684

Abu Musa reported: There cropped up a difference of opinion between a group of Muhajirs (Emigrants and a group of Ansar (Helpers) (and the point of dispute was) that the Ansar said: The bath (because of sexual intercourse) becomes obligatory only-when the semen spurts out or ejaculates. But the Muhajirs said: When a man has sexual intercourse (with the woman), a bath becomes obligatory (no matter whether or not there is seminal emission or ejaculation). Abu Musa said: Well, I satisfy you on this (issue). He (Abu Musa, the narrator) said: I got up (and went) to 'A'isha and sought her permission and it was granted, and I said to her: 0 Mother, or Mother of the Faithful, I want to ask you about a matter on which I feel shy. She said: Don't feel shy of asking me about a thing which you can ask your mother, who gave you birth, for I am too your mother. Upon this I said: What makes a bath obligatory for a person? She replied: You have come across one well informed! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: When anyone sits amidst four parts (of the woman) and the circumcised parts touch each other a bath becomes obligatory.

smarty84
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by smarty84 »

Thank you for providing all these information's.

Eagle
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

Although there are ahadith that depict the prophet as saying male circumcision is part of the Abrahamic legacy, nothing in the above shows the prophet instructing female circumcision. The most that is found leaning in favor of the practice are statements where he speaks about unrelated topics where the female involved is already circumcised, or a weak and disputed report where he is comenting on a pre existing practice, in both cases not instructing nor recommending it. In that later hadith (sunan abu dawud) he says to avoid doing it in a way that would affect both men and women in their sexual life. Even if one sees prophetic approval for female circumcision in this saying, it stays far from the image of genital mutilation in the mind of those who jump for joy at anything that superficially seems to paint Islam in an unfavorable light.

As a side note, the pre islamic hanifs performed circumcision and other rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad. Josephus in his Antiquites speaks of the Arabs as Ishmael's descendants, way before the time of Muhammad, almost 500 years, saying they circumcized their children at 13 years old, as was still done in the times of the prophet, to commemorate their forefather Ishmael. The Torah itself speaks of the covenant of circumcision as extending to Ishmael.

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

As to Josephus, who should be quoted properly, he expresses his VIEWS on the topic of MALE circumcision and the Arabs, forgetting, or perhaps being ignorant of the fact, that the Arabs of his days were polytheists and would not even know who "Ishmael" is, far less claiming him as an ancestor.

The notion that Ishmael is the ancestor of Arabs may refer to SOME, very few Arabs, but certainly not all. And what Josephus meant by "Arabs" are not what we mean by that in our days.

He superimposes some of his Jewish background discussing circumcision, being perhaps quite unaware that the practice was known in ancient Egypt and was used by a whole range of people in the middle East and Africa. The early Arab circumcision was clearly a rite of passage, much as Muslim circumcision still is. It marks the point were a boy becomes a man. Hence it is performed at puberty. The connection with Jewish circumcision is something that was introduced by Islam.
Although there are ahadith that depict the prophet as saying male circumcision is part of the Abrahamic legacy, nothing in the above shows the prophet instructing female circumcision.
Well, Muslim scholars disagree...
Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.
Circumcision of girls and some doctors’ criticism thereof
Islam Q&A, Fatwa No. 60314

To whoever says that circumcision is an ancient Egyptian custom with no origin in the sunna, I say, Brother, review the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him). Let us consult the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him): "If you touch the male or female circumcision…" This hadith deals with the highest level of community health. In the highest level of health: "If you touch the male circumcision," meaning the circumcision of men, "or the female circumcision," meaning the circumcision of women, "washing is obligatory." These are the true words from the Prophet.
Egyptian Shaykh: FGM Not An Inherited Custom. Muslim Scholars Say It Is Either Obligatory or Commendable

At the very least we should say that female circumcision is SEEN as part of Islamic teaching by the majority of Muslims, but perhaps not parctices universally anymore.

It is designed to deprive women of sexual pleasure, so that they would be less likely to seek "affairs"...
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Eagle
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

And from that time the Jews continue the custom of circumcising their sons within that number of days. But as for the Arabians, they circumcise after the thirteenth year: because Ismael, the founder of their nation, who was born to Abraham of the concubine, was circumcised at that age; concerning whom I will presently give a particular account, with great exactness.
Josephus isnt speaking theoretically, he is stating a fact, the Arabs of his time circumcised their boys at 13 in imitation of the way of their forefathers Ibrahim and Ismail, regardless of their spiritual condition and beliefs at the time, which was and up to the time of the prophet Muhammad, a mixture of truth and falsehood. The weak argument that the Ishmaelite's straying from the path of Ibrahim means that they had forgotten their lineage is equivalent to saying that the Israelites' entire nation straying from the path of Isaac to the point they had no idea what was the Torah when they accidentally found it, means they had forgotten their ancestry.

In the 1sr century, Arabians was used to describe the people inhabiting, among other places, Arabia Felix which includes the Hijaz.
Again, in Josephus' words
When the lad was grown up, he married a wife, by birth an Egyptian: from whence the mother was her self derived originally. Of this wife were born to Ishmael twelve sons: Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Idumas, Masmaos, Massaos, Chodad, Theman, Jetur, Naphesus, Kadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates, to the Red Sea: and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these: both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraham their father.
This "rite of passage", unsurprisingly denigrated by the followers of Paul who saw it as a mutilation, despite Jesus himself being circumcised (where did the foreskin of the everlasting God go to by the way?) is a physical symbol of God's special relationship with Abraham and a constant reminder of the duties and obligations of those among his household (physical descendants or not) carrying the mark. This world has been put under mankind's dominion in its raw state, and it is up to humans to perfect it by making use of it in a God-conscious manner. When we put a religious sign on the most physical and potentially lowly organ, we signifiy it can and should be used in a holy way. Even when performing it on a child who is unaware of the portents of the ritual, the idea of hardwired, subconscious connection between God and mankind is being conveyed, as is so often stated in the Quran.

Still nothing showing prophetic instruction for female Circumcision.

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

The ancient Egyptians had a form of circumcision. So did and still do a number of tribes in Africa. By you logic they must all be descendants of Abraham in one for or another, even they do no follow any religion mentioning Abraham.

Pre-Islamic male circumcision marked the point when a boy became a man. This is still the main point in Islamic circumcision. After it, for example fasting in Ramadan becomes obligatory. Before, it is is voluntary. It is a symbolic ritual to signify a change in legal status.


In Judaism, circumcision has a different meaning, it is s symbol of belonging to the people of Israel.

When Mohammed cam along he merely kept a pre-existing practice and adorned it with the Ishmael fairy story, in the same way he invented Abraham at the Kaaba, for example. It is one example of many pagan rites that Mohammed kept and dressed up with some Islamic cock and bull story.

These inhabited all the country from Euphrates, to the Red Sea: and called it Nabatene.
Hijaz? :lotpot: He is talking about the people of Petra...
When we put a religious sign on the most physical and potentially lowly organ, we signifiy it can and should be used in a holy way.
Like the Muslim rape gangs in England? Arab circumcision is not "holy" it is tribal.
Still nothing showing prophetic instruction for female Circumcision.
You need new glasses. If Mohammed says HOW something should be done then he clearly expects THAT it is done.
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Eagle
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

The prophet doesnt say how to do it in that disputed and weak hadith, just to do it in a manner that does not affect the sexual pleasure.

It never was a rite of passage to manhood, but an act of commemoration of a known and established ancestral legacy to Ibrahim as attested by Josephus. It isnt his nor anybody's argument that circumcision is what attests to this ancestry.

It is interesting that these Ishmaelite descendants, including the Meccan hanif did it at 13 as was done to Ishmael, contrary to the Jews who do it a 8 days in memory of Isaac, which bellies the orientalist notion that the hanifs imitated the Israelites in their rites, more specifically their circumcision rites.

The Nabatene country spoken of by Josephus extends on a much larger area than the later northern Nabateans. It goes from the Euphrates to the Red Sea. This corroborates what historians suggest concerning northern Nabateans originating from further south in the Arabian Peninsula. Also, the term Arabians in the 1st crntury covered a large area around the Arabian Peninsula.

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Again, in Josephus' words:
When the lad was grown up, he married a wife, by birth an Egyptian: from whence the mother was her self derived originally. Of this wife were born to Ishmael twelve sons: Nabaioth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Idumas, Masmaos, Massaos, Chodad, Theman, Jetur, Naphesus, Kadmas. These inhabited all the country from Euphrates, to the Red Sea: and called it Nabatene. They are an Arabian nation, and name their tribes from these: both because of their own virtue, and because of the dignity of Abraham their father.
Very interesting. More proof that the Nabataean religion is Abrahamic. Thanks, Eagle!
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

The prophet doesnt say how to do it in that disputed and weak hadith, just to do it in a manner that does not affect the sexual pleasure.
Sahih hadith.

At the very least he ALLOWS FGM. And he only mentions sexual pleasure of the MAN, not the woman.
It never was a rite of passage to manhood, but an act of commemoration of a known and established ancestral legacy to Ibrahim as attested by Josephus.
For Arabs it ALWAYS was a rite of passage, Josephus speaks of the people whose capital is Petra. Not Mecca. And he merely expressed his opinion, using a very Jewish perspective. "Ishmael" and the hijaz was one of old Mo's tall tales, as was his version of Abraham. Mohammed's ancestors practised circumcision as rite to become an adult. Hence the later date at 13 years old. Nothing at all to do with Ishmael. As to the NABATEANS, who did NOT live in te Arabian peninsula, the story may be different.

The Nabatene country spoken of by Josephus extends on a much larger area than the later northern Nabateans. It goes from the Euphrates to the Red Sea.
That is what Josephus said. and he describes the distribution of the Nabatean people, clearly excluding anything as far south as Mecca, for example.

Maybe "from the Euphrates to the Red Sea" includes Beijing too? Chicen Itza? The South pole?

We actually know where the Nabaeans lived ...
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Eagle
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

Sunan isnt sahih. How is not cutting severely because it is "better" for the woman a mutilation? How is a woman that feels no sexual pleasure more "desirable" for the man?

There is zero proof that circumcision ever was a rite of passage devoid of religious significance to the Arabs prior the prophet Muhammad while we have independant historians speaking 500 years earlier of the Arabs of their time, not in theory but based on observation, stating for a fact that they practiced it to comemorate the Abrahamic legacy. There is a reason why they did it at 13 specifically instead of 14 or any other age.

Josephus delineates the borders of Nabatea as extending from the euphrates to the red sea, says nothing of Petra. This is much vaster than the northern Nabatean kingdom confusedly alluded to. These northern Nabateans originate from the south of the Peninsula, in accordance with Josephus' description of Nabatea's territory as including the Hijaz along the red sea coast. He doesnt even mention "Nabateans" rather an area that would later include the Nabatean kingdom.

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

Sunan isnt sahih.
Sahih Muslim 3:684
How is not cutting severely because it is "better" for the woman a mutilation? How is a woman that feels no sexual pleasure more "desirable" for the man?
Mohammed like pretty much all Muslims ever since, have little regard for what may or may not be "better" for women. Mohammed means sexual pleasure for men. An interrupted sex act by female orgasms, an artificially narrowed vagina, resembling an anus, that is what Mohammed means. An added bonus, as already mentioned in a reduced probability of a woman taking "lovers" as for her pleasure has been largely removed from sex. A woman only exists to please a man. Any who do not sufficiently do that, go to tell according to Mohammed.
Josephus delineates the borders of Nabatea as extending from the euphrates to the red sea, says nothing of Petra. This is much vaster than the northern Nabatean kingdom confusedly alluded to. These northern Nabateans originate from the south of the Peninsula, in accordance with Josephus' description of Nabatea's territory as including the Hijaz along the red sea coast. He doesnt even mention "Nabateans" rather an area that would later include the Nabatean kingdom.
And Petra is of course in China, right? Nowhere between "the Euphrates and the red sea", right?

We know where the Nabateans lived, independently from Josephus. They did not live in the Hijaz. LOL neither Josephus nor the Romans would have ever heard of the place.... it was just empty desert, unworthy even of Roman attention. And of course there was no Mecca yet. nor any Kaaba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The may have traded with people on the Arab peninsular, but they did not live there.

And they were polytheists... their religion was not like the one of the Jews.
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Eagle
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

There are many points in the Israelites' timeline during which the whole nations' religious state had nothing to do with the religion of Abraham, Isaac or Moses. What is the point?

This hadith about cutting less severely isnt from any sahih book.

Baseless tirade aside, the 2 questions remain:
How is not cutting severely because it is "better" for the woman a mutilation? How is a woman that feels no sexual pleasure more "desirable" for the man?

The area delineated by Josephus doesnt correspond to the northern Nabatean kingdom. It encompasses it. He isn't speaking of Nabateans either nor of Petra because he is talking of a wider nation. And again, the northern Nabateans originated from further south within the Arabian Peninsula.


Sure the Area around Mecca was a completely unexplored area, appart from Arabia Felix. Historians mainly knew and wrote about cities in and close to trade routes, where there was some significant activity. Outside the yearly pilgrimage, Mecca was nothing but an isolated village, whose inhabitants had to journey far to do their trade. The internal geographical features of Arabia as a whole and its climate prevented any foreign intrusion into it. This is all the more relevant as God's chosen area for the final manisfestation of the truth.


The Arabian peninsula is way more Semitic than any other region in the world, including the ancient lands of Canaan and Palestine. It was not affected through contact with various other civilizations as much as the Israelites, because the region was not hospitable and was geographically isolated. It was precisely these characteristics that Abraham sought, for it provided protection from the environment of polytheism 2:123-9,14:35-41. It makes all the more sense that this peninsula was chosen for the final expression of truth, because the Israelites, throughout their history, lost sight of their faith and assimilated themselves into the competing cultures. Instead of being the beacon of light for humanity, they ended up following the ways of the people they were suppose to guide. In fact, Christianity was the final culmination of the paganization of the Israelites.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Eagle writes:
Josephus delineates the borders of Nabatea as extending from the euphrates to the red sea, says nothing of Petra.
So Josephus says nothing about Petra? He's addicted!

Antiquities 4.82-83:
".. and when he (Moses) came to a place which the Arabian esteem their metropolis, which was formerly called Arce, but has now the name of Petra ....."
Antiquities 4:7
"... the chief and capital of all Arabia, which is still now so called by the whole Arabian nation, Aracem, from the name of the king that built it; but is by the Greek called - Petra. ..."
Wars, book 1, chapter 6:2 -
"... he escaped tot the place called Petra, which is the royal seat of the king of Arabia."
Wars, Book1, chapter 8:1 -
"... but was stopped by the difficulty of the places about Petra "
Sound like Mecca, now doesn't it?

Eagle writes:
He isn't speaking of Nabateans either nor of Petra because he is talking of a wider nation. And again, the northern Nabateans originated from further south within the Arabian Peninsula.
Actually it's, as always, a little more complicated. What you call the "northern Nabateans" are actually
southerners. North of the Nabataean kingdom you find an area with Saifatic script but same religion and language, dominated by the Palmyrian empire. These are the "northern Nabateans", living between Bostra and the Euphrates. So as you see Josephus knows his stuff.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:Although there are ahadith that depict the prophet as saying male circumcision is part of the Abrahamic legacy, nothing in the above shows the prophet instructing female circumcision. The most that is found leaning in favor of the practice are statements where he speaks about unrelated topics where the female involved is already circumcised, or a weak and disputed report where he is comenting on a pre existing practice, in both cases not instructing nor recommending it. In that later hadith (sunan abu dawud) he says to avoid doing it in a way that would affect both men and women in their sexual life. Even if one sees prophetic approval for female circumcision in this saying, it stays far from the image of genital mutilation in the mind of those who jump for joy at anything that superficially seems to paint Islam in an unfavorable light.

As a side note, the pre islamic hanifs performed circumcision and other rites that were similar to the Israelite rites of the altar sacrifice even before the coming of Muhammad. Josephus in his Antiquites speaks of the Arabs as Ishmael's descendants, way before the time of Muhammad, almost 500 years, saying they circumcized their children at 13 years old, as was still done in the times of the prophet, to commemorate their forefather Ishmael. The Torah itself speaks of the covenant of circumcision as extending to Ishmael.
Eagle

Jews do not circumcise women, they only circumcise men.

Muslims circumcise both men and women because of what their scriptures tell them.

If you want to argue otherwise, then your argument is with Muslim scholarship as well as all the Muslims who do(and have done so for centuries) circumcise women, which according to your reasonings are being badly mis led, and are not acting in obedience to their god.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Eagle »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Eagle writes:
Josephus delineates the borders of Nabatea as extending from the euphrates to the red sea, says nothing of Petra.
So Josephus says nothing about Petra? He's addicted!

Antiquities 4.82-83:
".. and when he (Moses) came to a place which the Arabian esteem their metropolis, which was formerly called Arce, but has now the name of Petra ....."
Antiquities 4:7
"... the chief and capital of all Arabia, which is still now so called by the whole Arabian nation, Aracem, from the name of the king that built it; but is by the Greek called - Petra. ..."
Wars, book 1, chapter 6:2 -
"... he escaped tot the place called Petra, which is the royal seat of the king of Arabia."
Wars, Book1, chapter 8:1 -
"... but was stopped by the difficulty of the places about Petra "
Sound like Mecca, now doesn't it?

Eagle writes:
He isn't speaking of Nabateans either nor of Petra because he is talking of a wider nation. And again, the northern Nabateans originated from further south within the Arabian Peninsula.
Actually it's, as always, a little more complicated. What you call the "northern Nabateans" are actually
southerners. North of the Nabataean kingdom you find an area with Saifatic script but same religion and language, dominated by the Palmyrian empire. These are the "northern Nabateans", living between Bostra and the Euphrates. So as you see Josephus knows his stuff.
These quotes speak of Petra and their Madianite inhabitants much later than the account about the territorial distribution of Ishmael's descendants. Petra didnt exist at the time and hence he never mentions it in that context.

Sure Josephus knows what he's saying and these northern Nabateans are not the ones spoken of in the account about Ishmael's descendants. He speaks of a territory that encompasses both this area and the Hijaz.

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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

I take it you have asked him, as you provide no evidence for what you say....

Josephus never once speaks of the Hijaz or Mecca... the "hizaz" is a virtually uninhabited wilderness at the time of his writing, and Mecca was not founded until at least 400 years later.

And the Nabateans did not regard themselves as "descendants of Ishmael" because they had no connections to the religion of the Jews. How would you claim a Jewish ancestry but at the same time follow a polytheistic religion? How many "descendants of Mohammed" call themselves Hindus? The JEWS of the time of Josephus saw them as possible related to Ishmael. The Nabateans themselves had a different self-image.

If anything, the people in the hijaz, such as they were, adopted some of the cultural ideas of the Nabateans,through trading contacts, such as the worship of al-Uzza for example, as is the eventual construction of more permanent settlements, but much later. The original "Arabs", as Josephus shows us, were the people of what is today southern Syria and Jordan, give and take a bit, plus the coastal regions of the gulf or Aqaba, on both sides. NOT the Arab peninsula at all. The people from the Arab peninsula are different cultures entirely, mostly nomadic, and only later acquired an "Arab" identity based on the Nabatean cultural influences they had submitted to.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Eagle wrote:
These quotes speak of Petra and their Madianite inhabitants much later than the account about the territorial distribution of Ishmael's descendants. Petra didnt exist at the time and hence he never mentions it in that context.
That's of course irrelevant. Josephus makes an observation of the Nabataean nation in the first century AD. Narrators from the third and fourth century make the same observation. Then he explains that Petra was formally known as Arkem or Arekem. Nice try though.

Did you know that in the ninth century Armenian scholars identified Arkem or Arekem as Mecca ?
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Theological: Mahmud from Najran Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

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manfred
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Re: Any reference of Female Circumcision or Khatna in Quran?

Post by manfred »

The earliest historical reference to Petra was an attack to the city ordered by Antigonus I in 312 BC recorded by various Greek historians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a CAPITAL, well, that is 1st century, I think.

Did Petra exist during the time of Ishmael? No, it most likely did not, even though some say there was a bronze age settlement there. Is that somehow relevant?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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