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Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:11 am
by Fernando
iffo wrote: Even if muhamad had sex with his cat they will be ok
Difficult - how would they react it he made it easier for himself and used his dog? (AFIAK working dogs are OK, as long as they are not pets.)

My two cents on Miracles

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:01 pm
by BaigZaheer
I would like to write a note on the miracles shown by God, not by men.

God showed miracles to Pharaoh through Moses and only the last miracle worked.

God showed a few miracles to the Jews through Jesus but all miracles failed to impress the Jews and Jesus' mission failed and flopped.

The result: Jesus was considered a sorcerer, a lunatic, a mad man and nobody believed him. He was rejected by his own people, who were believers and knew that God had showed miracles to their Hebrew ancestors.

Muhammad did not show any miracles. When people had asked him to show, God told him through Qur'aan to go up into heavens or go down into the earth to bring miracles himself if he had any power.

In other words, the miracles failed to impress the backward 1st Century men, so how could they impress the 7th Century men, who were more advanced than the backward 1st Century men?

So, it was time to reason with men. And this was done at the Mecca and Medinah Forums. Muhammad won.

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:17 pm
by manfred
This is an astute observation Zaheer."Miracles" do not convince those who do not wish to be convinced. The same applies to reason. It also only convinces those who are open to reason.

The invariable question arises if an all knowing deity is already aware of the limitations of miracles, then why use them at all?

Perhaps the answer to that is in looking at what ELSE apart from the "ooo" effect can miracles do:The plagues of Egypt about more than simply getting the release of the Israelites. The tell us who is ultimately responsible for this release, in the view of the writer. They also tell us that stubbornness is not a the same as courage.

In the NT the miracle accounts are very often linked to a specific passage about the messiah in the HB, or about establishing who Jesus is in the eyes of the authors. Who can control demons? Forgive sins? Raise the dead? They too have a purpose beyond the immediate effect, and they two are only remarkable to those who take the time and look beyond the "ooo, ahhh" and search for the reason why this miracle, as opposed to some other, is reported.

Jesus in the bible was mocked while on the cross and ask of you are so powerful, step down from that cross now. He didn't. The miracles of Jesus are all bound up in some purpose beyond impressing any audience.

As an aside what do you make of the moon splitting story... (no I don't mean the story about some idiot school boys mooning on a bus and breaking a window.)

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:09 am
by sum
Hello BaigZaheer

Your quote -
The result: Jesus was considered a sorcerer, a lunatic, a mad man and nobody believed him. He was rejected by his own people, who were believers and knew that God had showed miracles to their Hebrew ancestors.

This is a striking similarity to Muhammad, isn`t it? How did the paths of Jesus and Muhammad deviate from this point onwards? Jesus took the path of peaceful preaching but Muhammad took the path of warfare and genocide to further his ideology.

Which path is spiritual and which path is that of a warlord?

sum

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:37 pm
by BaigZaheer
sum wrote:Hello BaigZaheer

Your quote -
The result: Jesus was considered a sorcerer, a lunatic, a mad man and nobody believed him. He was rejected by his own people, who were believers and knew that God had showed miracles to their Hebrew ancestors.

This is a striking similarity to Muhammad, isn`t it? How did the paths of Jesus and Muhammad deviate from this point onwards? Jesus took the path of peaceful preaching but Muhammad took the path of warfare and genocide to further his ideology.

Which path is spiritual and which path is that of a warlord?

sum


Very simple and easy to understand.

Jesus was sent to reform Judaism. Religion was already established there. The Jews were already believers in God and had their Scripture. You know well that Jesus came with nothing new, brought nothing new and left behind nothing new.

He was not sent to brute and barbaric pagans. He had a peaceful life.

He and his followers were free to roam and were not persecuted by the Jews. Neither he nor his followers were harassed nor were they persecuted. They were not even attacked and neither had to defend nor had to fight.

And yet his mission failed and flopped. The Jews did not accept him because of his arrogance and the Tu Quoque exchanges in the Israelite Forum. He was rejected. End of the story.

Muhammad, on the other hand, was sent to brute and barbaric pagans, who were Godless, idolaters and did not believe in God. Unlike Jesus, he came up with something new, which the pagans did not like and opposed him. He and his followers were persecuted and attacked. And they were kicked out.

The treacherous Jews and Christians of Mecca and Medinah were hypocrites and despite being believers in God sided with the pagans, connived and contrived with them and all ganged up to destroy the Prophet and Islam during its infancy.

So, they had to fight. Muhammad did not have an easy life like Jesus had. Muhammad prevailed and established belief in one God. Within 23 years the barbaric and brute pagans became believers in God Almighty.

Jesus could not even convince his own fellow believers and teh Jews did not believe that he was the messiah they were waiting for. Muhammad convinced pagans and they believed him.

End of the story.

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:56 pm
by sum
Hello BaigZaheer

Your quote -
Muhammad, on the other hand, was sent to brute and barbaric pagans, who were Godless, idolaters and did not believe in God.

You are wrong. The people of Mecca did believe in gods and one was even called Allah. It is totally illogical for you to claim that their gods were false while your god, Allah, is real. You only have your deep indoctrination to support your belief but please bear in mind that belief is not fact. You have been programmed.

Why did the Meccans become hostile to Muhammad? Because he persisted in deriding and mocking their gods despite the Meccans asking him to stop. Muhammad even threatened the Meccans with slaughter. It was more than reasonable for the Meccans to become hostile after enduring years of their gods being insulted.

Please tell me why your god is more real than any of the Meccan gods.

sum

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:06 pm
by BaigZaheer
sum wrote:Hello BaigZaheer

Your quote -
Muhammad, on the other hand, was sent to brute and barbaric pagans, who were Godless, idolaters and did not believe in God.

You are wrong. The people of Mecca did believe in gods and one was even called Allah. It is totally illogical for you to claim that their gods were false while your god, Allah, is real. You only have your deep indoctrination to support your belief but please bear in mind that belief is not fact. You have been programmed.

Why did the Meccans become hostile to Muhammad? Because he persisted in deriding and mocking their gods despite the Meccans asking him to stop. Muhammad even threatened the Meccans with slaughter. It was more than reasonable for the Meccans to become hostile after enduring years of their gods being insulted.

Please tell me why your god is more real than any of the Meccan gods.

sum


Seriously!

You have been answered. I am right and it is you who is wrong and very badly misinformed. You can accept the gods of pagan Meccans.

See, you just made a bogus claim that "Muhammad even threatened the Meccans with slaughter". Don't make things up. It is not good to make up things. There are sensible readers who can read and understand.

Now, tell me where did you get "Muhammad even threatened the Meccans with slaughter". Prove it!

After Muhammad and Muslims took back Mecca, how many thousands of pagan Meccans were slaughtered? :lotpot: None, dear!

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:07 pm
by BaigZaheer
sum wrote:Hello BaigZaheer

Your quote -
Muhammad, on the other hand, was sent to brute and barbaric pagans, who were Godless, idolaters and did not believe in God.

You are wrong. The people of Mecca did believe in gods and one was even called Allah. It is totally illogical for you to claim that their gods were false while your god, Allah, is real. You only have your deep indoctrination to support your belief but please bear in mind that belief is not fact. You have been programmed.

Why did the Meccans become hostile to Muhammad? Because he persisted in deriding and mocking their gods despite the Meccans asking him to stop. Muhammad even threatened the Meccans with slaughter. It was more than reasonable for the Meccans to become hostile after enduring years of their gods being insulted.

Please tell me why your god is more real than any of the Meccan gods.

sum


Hello, sum

You are really a dull knife. :lol: back to my Tafseer work.

Re: reasons Islams is false - answers

PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:35 pm
by sum
Hello BaigZaheer

You asked for a quote and here it is -

Ibn Humayd- Salamah- Muhammad b. Ishaq- Yahya b. ‘Urwah b. al-Zubayr- his father ‘Urwah-‘Abdallah b. ‘Amr b. al-‘As: I said to him, "What was the worst attack you saw by Quraysh upon the Messenger of God when they openly showed their enmity to him?" He replied, "I was with them when their nobles assembled one day in the Hijr and discussed the Messenger of God. They said, ‘We have never seen the like of what we have endured from this man. He has derided our traditional values, abused our forefathers, reviled our religion, caused division among us, and insulted our gods. We have endured a great deal from him,’ or words to that effect. While they were saying this, the Messenger of God suddenly appeared and walked up and kissed the Black Stone. Then he passed by them while performing the circumambulation, and as he did so they made some slanderous remarks about him. I could see from the Messenger of God’s face that he had heard them, but he went on. When he passed the second time they made similar remarks, and I could see from his face that he had heard them, but again he went on. Then he passed them the third time, and they made similar remarks; but this time he stopped and said, ‘Hear, men of Quraysh. By Him in whose hand Muhammad’s soul rests, I have brought you slaughter.’ They were gripped by what he said, and it was as though every man of them had a bird perched on his head; even those of them who had been urging the severest measures against him previously spoke in conciliatory ways to him, using the politest expressions they could think of, and said, ‘Depart in true guidance, Abu al-Qasim; by God you were never ignorant.’

Your quote -
Now, tell me where did you get "Muhammad even threatened the Meccans with slaughter". Prove it!

You call yourself a scholar but you are either lying or not a scholar at all. If you want to educate yourself please just google "Meccan Ten" where you will find details of those murdered by Muhammad when he took Mecca. I do not know how you have the gall to deny these Islamic facts.

If he murdered people will Muhammad go to paradise?

sum