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Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:49 am
by manfred
When our old friend the two horned one built the barrier between god/Magog and the people he met, you know that huge wall between two mountains which stands until judgement day but which google earth has missed, despite of having found even my tiny herb garden, we find this curious instruction:

Yusuf Ali "Bring me blocks of iron." At length, when he had filled up the space between the two steep mountain-sides, He said, "Blow (with your bellows)" Then, when he had made it (red) as fire, he said: "Bring me, that I may pour over it, molten lead."
Pickthal Give me pieces of iron - till, when he had levelled up (the gap) between the cliffs, he said: Blow! - till, when he had made it a fire, he said: Bring me molten copper to pour thereon.
Arberry Bring me ingots of iron!' Until, when he had made all level between the two cliffs, he said, 'Blow!' Until, when he had made it a fire, he said, 'Bring me, that I may pour molten brass on it.'
Shakir Bring me blocks of iron; until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire, he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.
Sarwar Bring me blocks of iron to fill up the passage between the two mountains." He told them to ply their bellows until the iron became hot as fire. Then he told them to pour on it molten brass."


Now, as anyone working with metals can tell you, neither brass nor copper nor lead will stick to iron of you melt it and pour it over. So this simply does not work. That is why some translators substituted "tar". Worse, if you cover iron with brass, say by screwing on sheets, you get very heavy and quick corrosion. You can chemically brass plate iron with electricity and certain copper and zinc compounds, but it is rarely done as is promotes rusting.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:15 am
by Eagle
Given the urgency of the situation, the noble king used the most relevant, abundant and readily available materials at hand, as implied by the command to bring iron in pieces/lumps or blocks. It is known that iron and copper can be relatively easily extracted, as was done by ancient people that gathered these metallic minerals by simply picking up copper chunks lying around, iron hematites found in rocks and soils, or iron nodules which were collected from the bottom of swamps. Although, from a chemical viewpoint, it is perfectly possible to realize a purely iron-copper alloy but due to the 2 components' properties, the structure will not be well proportionned, ie it will have alternating layers of copper-rich and iron-rich material, the structure built by the king did not first require the merging of the 2 components. The verse states, the construction began by placing iron pieces together, heating them until it looked like fire, which would have resulted in the merging of the iron blocks, after which, and all the while the structure was still hot, a layer of molten copper was poured on top, merging with its outter layer.

Another observation is that the structure's main component was iron, which was used to fill a space between 2 mountain sides. Copper was brought in at the end, and the procedure described clearly refers to its use as a coating material, to provide better protection against corrosion. Covering iron with brass, copper or some other, less oxidizable metal, in order to render it more enduring in exposed situations, is a method known for long.

Again, and as stated in the verse, the protection was not meant to physically last forever but provide fast relief to his subjects, using the materials at hand.

And by the way, the Quran says nothing about a wall still standing.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:02 pm
by Fernando
Eagle, would you like to explain the logistics of such a massive undertaking by ancient people? How many people - however large - would it take, how long, how big the furnaces, how massive the holes left after extracting enough ore, how everything was transported etc.?

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:55 pm
by manfred
Eagle, you have entirely sidestepped the point made at the start: The Qur'an describes a specific construction method. But method cannot work. If you pour molten brass or copper over iron it will NEVER "stick". It will run off or fall off.

Also you need to explain the logistics of this curious story.

Finally, the fall of this edifice is linked to the day of judgement. As this day clearly is not yet here, the wall must still be there. Where is it? We had this discussion before, and you simply ignored that point.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:22 pm
by Eagle
There is no connection between the fall of the wall, as eventually bound to happen by Dhul Qarnayn's words, and the day of judgement. If there was or that such Quranic statement existed, it would have been quoted.

Once more,
Eagle wrote:...it is perfectly possible to realize a purely iron-copper alloy...the construction began by placing iron pieces together, heating them until it looked like fire, which would have resulted in the merging of the iron blocks, after which, and all the while the structure was still hot, a layer of molten copper was poured on top, merging with its outter layer.


As to curiousness and logistics, maybe does one wonder and conclude that ancient people were incapable of building similarily curious, complex and monumental buildings, such as the pyramids, including massive walls and dams, some of them still having a trace and others reduced to dust, and that therefore alien engineers had to be involved?

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:44 pm
by manfred
we had the discussion about the wall and its duration previously, and you seem to have forgotten all the quotes provided then.

Here is one of many Muslim sites going over that, with quites from the Qur'an.

According to the Quran, they will be set loose shortly before the arrival of the Day of Judgment as Allah Almighty has mentioned:

“Said he: “This is a mercy from my Lord. But when the promise of my Lord (i.e., Resurrection) comes to pass, He will level it with the ground; and the promise of my Lord is true.” And We will let them that day to dash into one another. And the trumpet will be blown; then We will gather them all together.” ”[18:98-99]

http://www.iqrasense.com/death-and-afte ... magog.html

and here is Ibn Kathir

From "The Signs Before the Day of Judgement"

They (two tribes or peoples) will appear at the time of Jesus son of Mary, after the Dajjaal. Allah will destroy them all in one night, in response to the supplication of Jesus.

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet (S) said, "Every day, Gog and Magog are trying to dig a way out through the barrier. When they begin to see sunlight through it, the one who is in charge of them says, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow,' and when they come back, the barrier is stronger than it was before. This will continue until their time comes and Allah wishes to send them forth. They will dig until they begin to see sunlight, then the one who is in charge of them will say, 'Go back; you can carry on digging tomorrow, in shaa'Allah.' In this case he will make an exception by saying in shaa'Allah, thus relating the matter to the Will of Allah. They will return on the following day, and find the hole as they left it. They will carry on digging and come out against the people. They will drink all the water, and find the hole as they left it, and the people will entrench themselves in their fortresses. Gog and Magog will fire their arrows into the sky, and they will fall back to earth with something like blood on them. Gog and Magog will say, 'We have defeated the people of earth, and overcome the people of heaven.' Then Allah will send a kind of worm in the napes of their nacks, and they will be killed by it...'By Him a in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, the beasts of the earth will become fat.'" [Tirmidhee, Abwaab al-Tafseer: Surat al-Kahf (Hadith 5160), 8/597-99; Ibn Maajah, Kitaab al-Fitan, (Hadith 4080), 2/1364. Ahmad, Musnad, 2/510, 511.]

Gog and Magog are two groups of Turks, descended from Yaafith (Japheth), the father of the Turks, one of the sons of Noah. At the time of Abraham (AS), there was a king called Dhoo'l-Qarnayn. He performed Tawaaf around the Ka'bah with Abraham (AS) when he first built it; he believed and followed him. Dhoo'l-Qarnayn was a good man and a great king; Allah gave him great power and he ruled the east and west. He held sway over all kings and countries, and travelled far and wide in both east and west. He travelled eastwards until he reached a pass between two mountains, through which people were coming out. They did not understand anything, because they were so isolated; they were Gog and Magog. They were spreading corruption through the earth, and harming the people, so the people sought help from Dhoo'l-Qarnayn. They asked him to build a barrier between them and Gog and Magog. He asked them to him to build it, so together they built a barrier by mixing iron, copper and tar.

Thus Dhoo'l-Qarnayn restrained Gog and Magog behind the barrier. They tried to penetrate the barrier, or to climb over it, but to no avail. They could not succeed because the barrier is so huge and smooth. They began to dig, and they have been digging for centuries; they will continue to do so until the time when Allah decrees that they come out. At that time the barrier will collapse, and Gog and Magog will rush out in all directions, spreading corruption, uprooting plants, killing people. When Jesus (AS) prays against them, Allah will send a kind of work in the napes of their necks, and they will be killed by it.


Antoher relevant hadith:

-"Ibn Mas'ood reported that the Prophet (S) said, "On the night of the Israa' (night journey), I met my father Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and they discussed the Hour. The matter was referred first to Abraham, then to Moses, and both said, 'I have no knowledge of it'. Then it was referred to Jesus, who said, 'No one knows about its timing except Allah; what my Lord told me was that the Dajjaal will appear, and when he sees me he will begin to melt like lead. Allah will destroy him when he sees me. The Muslims will fight against the Kaafirs, and even the trees and rocks will say, "O Muslim, there is a Kaafir hiding beneath me - come and kill him!" Allah will destroy the Kaafirs, and the people will return to their lands. Then Gog and Magog will appear from all directions, eating and drinking everything they found. The people will complain to me, so I will pray to Allah and He will destroy them, so that the earth will be filled with their stench. Allah will send rain which will wash their bodies into the sea. My Lord has told me that when that happens, the HOUR WILL BE VERY CLOSE, LIKE A PREGNANT WOMAN WHOSE TIME IS DUE, BUT HER FAMILY DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHEN SHE WILL DELIVER."


And you still don't get it. Sure there are iron copper alloys. They are made by melting both metals and mixing when LIQUID. But this is not what is described. BLOCK of iron are used to build a wall which are the COATED with brass or copper. This is not physically possible, as the molten brass will not adhere to the solid iron.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:04 pm
by Eagle
One last time
all the while the structure was still hot, a layer of molten copper was poured on top, merging with its outter layer.

The process may have been done in parts and repeated until a complete structure was put together.

As to the fall of the wall on the day of judgement, still no Quranic quote stating any such thing.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:25 pm
by manfred
Still in denial I see.

1) I quoted Qur'an 18:98-99 together with related hadith and related sources. Do you even read comments? I did quote that for before, and you you had the cheek to tell me the texts says something different to what it plainly says, and what all Muslims readily believe and assert.
2 it would be ridiculous to suggest the iron blocks where still hot when the building was finished. How did they get handled? But even if we assume that is right, it really makes no difference at all. Hot or cold, no liquid brass or copper can stick to it. Have you ever tried to solder a steel wire? That does not work for the same reason.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:46 pm
by Eagle
1. Quoting opinions that are secondary to the primary source isnt important. The request is simple, to bring the verse stating the crumbling of the wall will occur on the day of judgement.
2. Depends what one means by "hot". The solid blocks were gathered at the desired spot and then heated up, obviously to cause them to merge together. Liquid copper was added at the covenient time so as to cause it to stick to the structure beneath.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:02 pm
by manfred
Eagle wrote:1. Quoting opinions that are secondary to the primary source isnt important. The request is simple, to bring the verse stating the crumbling of the wall will occur on the day of judgement.
2. Depends what one means by "hot". The solid blocks were gathered at the desired spot and then heated up, obviously to cause them to merge together. Liquid copper was added at the covenient time so as to cause it to stick to the structure beneath.


1) Stop being silly. I gave you BOTH the verses, and related hadith, as well as historical and contemporary readings of the text. It really is abundantly clear that in Islam this wall is meant to stand until judgement day. The quran says so, and Muslims through the ages until today have always believed that. If this embarrasses you I cannot help that.

2) OK, your turn to show me the verse where it says the blocks were heated up after they were placed. I would also like to know how you heat up a massive big iron wall in situ. And of course you still have not processed the fact that even on hot iron brass or copper does not stick. It just runs off like water off a waxy Bromeliad leaf.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:38 pm
by Eagle
1. The simple request is to show where in the quoted passage does it speaks of the day of judgement hapenning together with the crumbling of the wall. This hasnt been shown and never will be.
2. The sequence in the verse shows that pieces and blocks of iron were first placed, then heated until fire came out, after which molten copper was poured over.
1.Bring me blocks of iron;
2. until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides,
3. he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire,
4. he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it.

Of course and as already pointed the process may have been done progressively and repeatedly; heating up and joining the iron blocks then adding the copper coating, until the entire piled up blocks of iron was completed into a copper coated wall.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:17 pm
by manfred
1. The simple request is to show where in the quoted passage does it speaks of the day of judgement hapenning together with the crumbling of the wall. This hasnt been shown and never will be.


Easy.
18:99=100 wrote:He said: "This is a mercy from my Lord: But when the promise of my Lord comes to pass, He will make it into dust; and the promise of my Lord is true." On that day We shall leave them to surge like waves on one another: the trumpet will be blown, and We shall collect them all together. And We shall present Hell that day for Unbelievers to see, all spread out,-


And I have also provided Mohammed's interpretation, as found in the hadith. As I said, if you disgree with all other Muslims, then that does not change the text nor the teaching.

as to 2, tell me how you would heat a massive iron dam with a fire. This is simply not working.

The "blow" may refer to some bellows perhaps, and the fire is not for heating the already built dam, but the brass to be poured over it.

And you will have not processed that the brass would simply run off if the wall were to be hot enough to keep it liquid, or else just fall to the ground in pieces, as brass will not stick to iron. It is a completely silly description of building any kind of wall.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:57 pm
by Eagle
1. In sura 18 no connection exists between the surging of Gog and Magog, along with all of humanity to answer the call of judgement (which is God's statement), and the temporary nature of the wall spoken of by Dhul Qarnayn to his direct addressees to whom the wall was constructed for. Nowhere does Dhul Qarnayn imply that the crumbling of the wall will hapoen all of a sudden on a specific day neither does he say that following that, the Gog and Magog will be let loose. The day spoken of by God in the following verse is the one where not only Gog and Magog will come forth, but also the unbelievers and the destroyed towns be resurrected, it is speaking of the day of judgement. The mention of Gog and Magog and the towns in the context of resurrection and judgement clearly is meant at picturing the fact that people will be brought back to God from wherever they might be, whether they lead a sedentary or nomadic and untamed lifestyle.
2
1.Bring me blocks of iron;
2. until when he had filled up the space between the two mountain sides,
3. he said: Blow, until when he had made it (as) fire,
4. he said: Bring me molten brass which I may pour over it..

Grammatically and syntactically, the "it" in point 3 cannot refer to what follows.

Again, and as already pointed the process may have been done progressively and repeatedly; heating up and joining the iron blocks then adding the copper coating, until the entire piled up blocks of iron was completed into a copper coated wall.

Molten copper poured upon hot iron does not run off, provided it is done at the right temperature and using the correct method, which was known for long an used in metallurgy to avoid rust.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:00 pm
by Centaur
Actually Allah meant, you know :lighten:

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:52 pm
by manfred
Grammatically and syntactically, the "it" in point 3 cannot refer to what follows.

well, so we have another grammatical blunder... we have quite a few of them in the Qur'an. I f not seen a single translator agreeing with you. The way you describe it is really even dafter than the Qur'an. How would you heat any centre section of the wall? And for the last time, the heating will have no effect on the result.

Again, and as already pointed the process may have been done progressively and repeatedly; heating up and joining the iron blocks then adding the copper coating, until the entire piled up blocks of iron was completed into a copper coated wall.

Molten copper poured upon hot iron does not run off, provided it is done at the right temperature and using the correct method, which was known for long an used in metallurgy to avoid rust.


You cannot copper coat iron that way. That is ridiculous. You would first to ensure the iron is quite free from rust, then electroplate it with something like a tin/titanium alloy to give the copper a grip.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... 852-11-27/

All methods that actually work were developed recently, and would not be known at the time the Qur'an was written or earlier.

So we are talking about a wall that was never built, in way that would not work, to keep out a people that does not exist. Nonetheless we should be able to find it as it is massive, and lasts until the end of days.

You point it that is is all real, the wall the people and the judgement day, but the iron wall, strangely copper coated, even when that was not possible, somehow has become invisible.... Maybe after saying the shahadda is miraculously appears?

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:17 am
by Fernando
Eagle wrote:As to curiousness and logistics, maybe does one wonder and conclude that ancient people were incapable of building similarily curious, complex and monumental buildings, such as the pyramids, including massive walls and dams, some of them still having a trace and others reduced to dust, and that therefore alien engineers had to be involved?
Hewing and shaping stone is a very different cry from melting and shaping iron. Bear in mind also that iron is about three times as dense as rock. Perhaps you could show us an example of the ancients making significant structures of iron several centuries BC? It was a looooong time before
Since iron was becoming cheaper and more plentiful, it also became a major structural material following the building of the innovative first iron bridge in 1778
Wikipedia

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:32 am
by Eagle
Such a basic structure pales from the viewpoint of complexity and difficulty of execution compared to other famous ancient buildings. The verse states, the construction began by placing iron pieces together, heating them until it looked like fire, which would have resulted in the merging of the iron blocks, after which a layer of molten copper was poured on top. As to the method used, the process may have been done progressively and repeatedly inside a giant mould placed between the 2 mountain sides; heating up and joining the desired quantity of iron from among the larger pile of gathered blocks, pouring inside the mould then adding the copper coating, until finally the mould was removed, creating a sort of dam or sealed door between 2 mountain sides, made of merged iron bricks that were copper coated to provide better protection against corrosion. Covering iron with brass, copper or some other, less oxidizable metal, in order to render it more enduring in exposed situations, is a method known for long and as already said, even a purely iron/copper alloy is possible so nothing negates the possibility for the process to have occured as described in the passage, with molten copper poured upon iron at the right temperature so as to create adhesion between the 2.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:00 am
by manfred
Eagle we are talking about a structure spanning between two mountains it says. Perhaps the size would at least similar to a large hydroelectric dam.

This would be comparably small compare to the construction the Qur'an speaks of.

Image

The qur'an says such a thing is built from iron blocks. This is just silly on its own. I would require more iron than the ancient world had altogether.

And then your interpretation that the ready structure is heated until glowing like fire is ludicrous, and not even with modern technology would this be possible. You backtracked from this and suggested it was done in sections. but that too would be impossible because you cannot raise a source of heat into mid air. Iron, unless in a furnace will not easily glow by lighting a fire near by. The fire would need to be enclosed, underneath the iron material and supplied with extra oxygen. That is why we use iron for cookers.

And for the umpteenth time: you cannot coat iron with copper or brass by pouring it on. This is not working. You need to have an intermediate material. The technology to make copper coated iron is so recent you find it in the US patent office, in 21 century records.

And a alloy is NOT the same as the process described in the qur'an. You get an alloy by melting both metals in a furnace together and mixing them. This is not what is described.

It is incredible that you dismiss verifiable facts to save what the qur'an says.

In fact the whole story is too silly to be taken seriously. The builders could scale the wall and the mountains either side, but Gog and Magog could not? There were wheelchair bound perhaps? And blocking off a path between two mountains traps two entire people? If they are too stupid to find a way around how come they are such a threat?

It really is a daft story perhaps suitable to entertain kids. I am surprised you believe that.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:23 am
by Eagle
The structure did not have to span the whole length of 2 mountain sides for it to constitute an efficient obstacle against invasion. This was done many times in history.

The link you provided speaks of copper coated iron sheet. Its irrelevant to the topic and once more, it easy to imagine how that simple structure might have been put together progressively, using moulds inside which firstly, molted iron is poured after being extracted from the blast furnace obviously alluded to prior in the verse, second and while still close to melting point, molted copper is poured on top after which the mould is removed and the process repeated.

Re: Allah does not know metallurgy

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:33 am
by sum
Hello Eagle

The power of indoctrination is such that is can destroy logic.

sum