Page 3 of 5

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:32 pm
by manfred
SAM I have to ask.... is there anything you "know better"? Anything at all?

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:46 pm
by frankie
BaigZaheer wrote:
SAM wrote:Do not try to thwart my simple question to you that you can not find the answer.

How were the origins of the Sholat created?

How do all prophets receive Sholat inspiration from Allah?

Why did their Jews and Christians not follow the original way of Moses and Jesus prostrating.



Good questions, SAM.

Man worshipped idols and other things, stood in awe, bowed and prostrated.

Then God told men through the prophets to stand, bow and prostrate only to Himself. The Jews still do that and the Prophet of Islam taught the same, but the Christians do not pray like the Jews do although Jesus and his disciples prayed like the Jews.

So the answer to your last question is: That is one subject that neither Paul nor the Church fathers taught, as none saw how Jesus and his disciples prayed.



BaigZaheer

You and SAM have yet to answer this question,

Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of the Black stone are pre Islamic pagan practices.

Why retain rituals from a "pre Islamic period of ignorance" if Islam came to abolish them?

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:44 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:SAM I have to ask.... is there anything you "know better"? Anything at all?
Prayer in Islam is related to Allah's image. That's why I ask you about "our image" (Genesis 1:26) that you can not answer me.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:01 pm
by manfred
The Christian understanding of "in God's image" is not a literal one. Man is "in God's image" because he/she as a sense of good and evil, has free will and the ability to reason. Man can also show qualities like mercy and love, kindness and empathy. All this are the encompassed in "in his image".

Prayer in Islam is a ritual performed to bargain with "Allah". You do it to get a reward, and because you fear your insane god will punish you if you don't offer your backside to him often enough.

So you can stop playing games.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:11 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:The Christian understanding of "in God's image" is not a literal one. Man is "in God's image" because he/she as a sense of good and evil, has free will and the ability to reason. Man can also show qualities like mercy and love, kindness and empathy. All this are the encompassed in "in his image".
Tell me, whom the words "us" and "our image (Gen1:26) your God refers to you? Is it talking about the Trinity? Does God the Father create Adam "our image" based on Him and Jesus ?

Prayer in Islam is a ritual performed to bargain with "Allah". You do it to get a reward, and because you fear your insane god will punish you ig you don;t offer your backside to him often enough.
So Jews, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus also offer their backside to their respective Gods, as shown in the video.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:24 pm
by Takeiteasynow
Well, the FORM of Muslim prayer is largely borrowed from the Persian court etiquette, so unless that was divinely odered too, it is really as plain as the nose in your face that the Muslim salah has some very human origins.

What is more, as Frankie pointed out, this was also known in the early days of Islam.


That's all possible. Actually prostation is clearly linked to the (pre)Islamic Hajj.
Volume 2, book 26, 646: Allah's apostle entered Makkah from Kadu from the highest thaniya (Bakkah) which is at Al Batha and would leave Makkah from the low thaniya.


According to the hadeeth Muhammad would travel from Kuda to al-Batha before doing tawaf. The locality and name al-Batha derives from Semitic sememe bth and refers to verb bataha, meaning to lie prostrate, face downwards or to lie stretched out.

So pilgrims would lie stretched our or lie prostrate before entering the holy city of Islam. If I am not mistaken this is the same sememe used in the Old Testament. This may refer to an ancient pagan ritual.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:35 pm
by SAM
frankie wrote:BaigZaheer

You and SAM have yet to answer this question,

Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of the Black stone are pre Islamic pagan practices.

Why retain rituals from a "pre Islamic period of ignorance" if Islam came to abolish them?
I have told you before that the religion of Abraham was achieved, accomplished and fulfilled by Muhammad. And you're still repeating again and again.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:41 pm
by manfred
Tell me, whom the words "us" and "our image (Gen1:26) your God refers to you? Is it talking about the Trinity? Does God the Father create Adam "our image" based on Him and Jesus ?


You asked this many times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we

The writer of the passage was JEWISH. So obviously he does not talk about the trinity.

You find the royal we in the Qur'an too, unless you want to suggest that always means "SAM and Allah, the best mates, or even more if the butt ritual means anything."

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:43 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:
Tell me, whom the words "us" and "our image (Gen1:26) your God refers to you? Is it talking about the Trinity? Does God the Father create Adam "our image" based on Him and Jesus ?


You asked this many times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_we

The writer of the passage was JEWISH. So obviously he does not talk about the trinity.

You find the royal we in the Qur'an too, unless you want to suggest that always means "SAM and Allah, the best mates, or even more if the butt ritual means anything."
So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.(Gen 1:27).

Christians don't know the image of God that is why they are idolatry. If the Christians ever seen the God's image, they surely rejected Trinity.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:46 pm
by manfred
So Sam say he has seen this Allah and he knows what he looks like... Does he have pimples on his butt? Does he have an ugly mole like Mohammed? Bad breath like Mohammed?

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:57 pm
by frankie
SAM wrote:
frankie wrote:BaigZaheer

You and SAM have yet to answer this question,

Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of the Black stone are pre Islamic pagan practices.

Why retain rituals from a "pre Islamic period of ignorance" if Islam came to abolish them?
I have told you before that the religion of Abraham was achieved, accomplished and fulfilled by Muhammad. And you're still repeating again and again.



SAM

And I have told you, the foundations of Islam are pagan,whIch is why Muslims still perform Hajj, Ramadan and venerate the Black stone.

Abraham was led to worship the Bible God who forbids all things pagan,therefore Abraham has nothing whatsoever to do with the pre Islamic pagan rituals of Islam,which all Muslims still perform today, it is a lie perpetrated by Muslims to link their bogus faith to the Bible,which has succeeded for 1400 years until now, when the truth about this fraud is being exposed on a daily basis throughout the world today.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:12 am
by Fernando
SAM wrote:You also do not know the origin of Sholat. How did Moses, Isa, Muhammad and other prophets receive inspiration of Sholat from Allah :harhar:
If it's a bad thing to draw cartoons of Mo, whatever becomes of Muslims who draw smilies of Allah?

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:15 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:So Sam say he has seen this Allah and he knows what he looks like... Does he have pimples on his butt? Does he have an ugly mole like Mohammed? Bad breath like Mohammed?

Image


Christians believe that Jesus existed before Adam was created. So God the Father who has no heavenly wife :lol: has said to his son, Jesus “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness,"[Gen 1:26]

One day, Philip asked Jesus to show proof that his Father had existed. Jesus answered with anger, :x "Philip, how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Jesus was angry with Philip because he himself could not prove that God the Father existed.

Then Jesus cried out, “And whoever sees Me sees the One who sent Me. [John 12:45]

Jesus said, "If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.” [John 14:7]

Tell me, can you see the image of God through Jesus' face? :roll:

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:49 am
by BaigZaheer
frankie wrote:
BaigZaheer

You and SAM have yet to answer this question,

Hajj, Ramadan and the veneration of the Black stone are pre Islamic pagan practices.

Why retain rituals from a "pre Islamic period of ignorance" if Islam came to abolish them?


I had not seen that question. Very easy answers, franki.

Hajj:

1. The pagan Arabs did not perform Hajj the way Muslims do.

2. They did not do Sa'aee the to and fro walking between Safa and Marwa points.

3. They did not gather in Arafaat for a whole day, heard no sermon and did not pray.

4. They did not camp in Mina for three days.

5. They did not throw stones at the three locations for the symbolic stoning of the Devil.

Ramadan

They did not fast during the entire month of Ramadan and did not pray like the Muslims do.

They ate like cattle. :lol:

Kissing the Black Stone

They just walked by the stone and never even kissed it.

They had their own pagan festivals but had no religion and scriptures.

Please consider this an answer on behalf of SAM also.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:51 am
by SAM
Fernando wrote:If it's a bad thing to draw cartoons of Mo, whatever becomes of Muslims who draw smilies of Allah?
Image


When Jesus was tortured, none of his followers went forward to defend him, before he died on the cross.

Today, when atheists mock, ridicule and insult Jesus, 2 billion Christians are definitely helpless and cowardly, that's why they do not care or want to defend Jesus Iscariot who has been insulted by Atheists.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:07 am
by BaigZaheer
Hello, SAM

I would like to comment on "And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,........."

This verse is quoted by Christians to allege plurality of God but that is a false assumption.

It is clear that God said that as we see "And God said, "..........."" through out Genesis.

Also, God could not say: "Let I create man in my own image" which is incorrect. Another problem is that it suggests that God and the angels were alike, which is silly.

For example, if I said to a group of children to play soccer with me: "Let us play soccer!". I am the speaker. And I cannot say, "Let I play soccer", which is also incorrect. I cannot play soccer by kicking the ball around the whole field myself, while the children watched.

So, the man who wrote Genesis 1:26 showed that God said that to the angels, who were there.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:23 am
by BaigZaheer
Hello, SAM

One more comment and it is about John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", which is an early 15th Century mistranslation.

John Wycliffe did the first translation of John in English around 1385 AD and he translated it as:

John 1:1 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.


And this simply means that in the beginning God was the only word and it was all about God. There is no talk about Jesus in there and Jesus is not on record for saying or talking about being the Word of God like "I am the Word of God and I was there before God."

You can clearly see how Wycliffe's translation has been distorted here within the brackets by the Bible publishers:

John 1:1 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.

[In the beginning was the word, that is, God's Son, and the word was at God, and God was the word.]


Towards the end of John, John 1:1-5 gets abrogated by John 17:3 and John 20:17 and he clearly shows that he was neither the son of God nor God.

Thanks for bringing up interesting points to discuss.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:28 am
by SAM
BaigZaheer wrote:Hello, SAM

I would like to comment on "And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness,........."

This verse is quoted by Christians to allege plurality of God but that is a false assumption.

It is clear that God said that as we see "And God said, "..........."" through out Genesis.

Also, God could not say: "Let I create man in my own image" which is incorrect. Another problem is that it suggests that God and the angels were alike, which is silly.

For example, if I said to a group of children to play soccer with me: "Let us play soccer!". I am the speaker. And I cannot say, "Let I play soccer", which is also incorrect. I cannot play soccer by kicking the ball around the whole field myself, while the children watched.

So, the man who wrote Genesis 1:26 showed that God said that to the angels, who were there.
Salam bro Baig,

You know we believe in Allah not the same as Christians who believe in their God. So, I asked them according to their beliefs.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:56 am
by manfred
There is no doubt at all what John tried to say.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


As to the royal we, it is kind of funny how the Qur'an makes use of it and Muslims do understand what it means there perfectly well.

Re: προσκύνησις

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:17 am
by manfred
Now SAM, let me introduce you in simplified form to what modern historical research has to say about Islam. Takeiteasynow has presented that in detail and no doubt you cannot be asked to read it.

There is no record about Mohammed nor Mecca at all until some 200 years after his alleged death. Up to about 710, the Qibla of all new mosques point at Petra, not Mecca.

Mohammed is a retro-projection. He certainly was not the person Islam presents him as. He may never have existed, or what Muslims say about him is a embroidered version of the life of one or several men who lived in Petra. When Petra was destroyed in the 713 earthquake, the entire Mohammed legend was relocated to Mecca.

Why did early Muslim rulers not reign from Mecca? Since when are there figs and olive trees in Mecca?

The who thing is built on sand. It is a fairy tale.