Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing.

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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MohamedLuq93
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Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing.

Post by MohamedLuq93 »

Hi, so came across this video and the content kinda convinces me. Anyhow, something in me says this is trash. Can someone debunk this for me ? Any Arabic experts here ?

The video link- https://youtu.be/HdqpxdEeDdU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To save time - I'll write down the important stuff that should be focused on.

1. the Holy Quran even talks about the process of phagocytosis Cells ingesting or engulfing one another Followed by their combination or disintegration That is used to form the zygote, in its verses. As you will note, the Quran refers to chewed matter in the verse on embryology. This chewed matter is a well-known medical term and an analogy For the mechanism of phagocytosis. So just as the zygote is formed due to the ingestion of the sperm by the female egg And the mixing of this ingested matter with the female DNA The chewed matter, the analogy given in the Holy Quran, Follows the same process as it to refers to the mixing of ingested matter with saliva Resulting in a new combination ( formation ). Essentially, using analogous terms The Quran is telling us about the process by which the zygote is formed.

2. The holy Quran not only stated the specific sequence of events that lead to embryo creation But also stated with 100% accuracy That during embryonic development the bones are formed first and then the flesh of muscles. “And certainly did We, God, Allah create man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a “watery bit of semen” in a firm lodging. Then We made the watery part of the semen a “creature that can attach” Then We made the “creature that can attach” a “chewed matter” Then We made the “chewed matter”, bones And We covered the bones with flesh Then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah, the best of creators. In Developmental Approaches to Human Evolution published in 2016 By Professor Julia Boughner, from the Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology At the University of Saskatchewan And professor Campbell Rolian in anatomy in the Department of Comparative Biology And Experimental Medicine in the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Calgary, We find research that is consistent with the Quran’s claims. The two professors studied homologies, evolution And the development of the striated muscles of all of the major groups of vertebrates And the spatial associations between them and bones/cartilages. They stated that among tetrapod groups, humans are tetrapods, by the way The signaling for limb and bone development usually precedes that for muscle development Cartilage in general is present prior to muscle formation And somatic limb muscle progenitor cells apparently do not carry intrinsic positional information. They also stated that there are studies That suggest that the presence of the first tissues formed during limb development Condensations that will give rise to bones May provide the positional signaling for the subsequent development of soft tissue.

sum
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by sum »

Hello MohamedLuq93

Before any discussion takes place we need the Koranic verses that make the claims that you present.

I am not aware at all that chewed matter is a well known medical term and used with reference to embryology.

Does the Koran mention the egg produced by the woman?

Could you present a more accurate and lucid account of the process of fertilisation and subsequent embryology?

sum

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manfred
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by manfred »

When you were a kid and you went to bed, and mom switched off the light, surely you sometimes looked around the room... "oh what is that! It's a monster! Is it a cat? You scared yourself until you switched on the light and had a look. And then it was just that jumper of yours that had fallen off the chair on top of the teddy bear.

This is what happens with most of these "science in Qur'an" claims.... "oh look, what is that?? It sound exactly like..."

What is happening you see something written and you decide, using your 21 century mind and ways of thinking, you own experiences and thoughts, to make sense of something written 1400 years ago.

A crass example would be "look it says here Jesus called 12 people! He had an iphone..."

So what we need to do is the equivalent to switching on the light in room in the story at the start.

We need to see the verses, the context of them, and most importantly, how these verses were understood by Mohammed and/or the early Muslims. If Muslims have ALWAYS believed and taught reproduction as in a modern science class, then sure we are onto something.

The verse that she VERY FREELY translated is this one, from three standard translations:
Yusuf Ali: “O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes…”

Pickthal: “O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants…”

Shakir: “O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies…”
That is from surah 22, verse 5


Here is the other one:
Verily We created man from a product of wet earth [sulalatin min teenin سُلَٰلَةٍ مِّن طِينٍ]; Then placed him as a drop (of seed) [nutfatan نُطْفَةً] in a safe lodging [qararin makeenin قَرَارٍ مَّكِينٍ]; Then fashioned We the drop a clot ['alaqatan عَلَقَةً], then fashioned We the clot a little lump [mudghatan مُضْغَةً], then fashioned We the little lump bones ['ithaman عِظَٰمًا], then clothed [kasawna كَسَوْنَا] the bones with flesh [lahman لَحْمًا], and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators!
Qur'an 23:12-14

The first thing you will notice is that apparently no egg plays any part in the development of a baby. NO EGG IS MENTIONED ANYWHERE.

This is also here:
Have We not created you from a fluid (held) despicable [ma-in maheenin]? The which We placed in a place of rest, firmly fixed, For a period (of gestation), determined (according to need)?
Qur'an 77:20-22
Then you notice the order mentioned in the Qur'an varies slightly from the one she gave in her presentation. Remember that semen is at first s sticky mess and gets liquid later, that is what she said in the "science" bit of her talk, and she is quite right, (ask sum he is a doctor)
I think.

But the little liquid drop becomes a "clot" of some kind, so the order is reversed. Then there is a lump, which get turned into bones which then get covered by flesh. That is not scientifically correct.

Early Islamic writers described conception like this:
(Verily, We have created man from Nutfah Amshaj,) meaning, mixed. The words Mashaj and Mashij mean something that is mixed together. Ibn `Abbas said concerning Allah’s statement,

﴿مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ﴾
(from Nutfah Amshaj,) "This means the fluid of the man and the fluid of the woman when they meet and mix.” Then man changes after this from stage to stage, condition to condition and color to color. `Ikrimah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas all made statements similar to this. They said, "Amshaj is the mixing of the man’s fluid with the woman’s fluid.”
So there is a male and a female fluid, the male being white and the female yellow, they mix and you get a baby... right...

In fact, Mohammed has simply taken a description from the classical physician Galen and sold it as a "revelation" in his Qur'an:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/24665426/Isl ... -and-Galen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So if the embryology in the Qur'an is so perfect that it must be divine, what about the same thing said by a Greek physician 500 years earlier? Also divine?

I am sorry for busting the bubble, but the Qur'an is what is is.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Fernando
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Fernando »

All other considerations apart, consider this (I've said it before and I'll say it again):
Mohammed's people had goats and camels, which they bred and butchered. Not to mention their own wives having problems in child-bearing and no doubt slaughtered the odd pregnant woman too. It would be a strange thing if they couldn't come up with a fair summary of mammalian embryology just from general observation. Which the Koran barely manages anyway.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Garudaman
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Garudaman »

the one point of the holy-scripture teaching is for teach people to be grateful, thankful for what God has given them, & in this case : what if God created humans without flesh/muscle, bone, but just a lump of flesh or even a cloth of blood, like low-level animal/simple organism.

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Fernando
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:the one point of the holy-scripture teaching is for teach people to be grateful, thankful for what God has given them, & in this case : what if God created humans without flesh/muscle, bone, but just a lump of flesh or even a cloth of blood, like low-level animal/simple organism.
The question is whether Allah's account of embryology is correct, not whether we should be grateful for whatever Allah made us.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah


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Fernando
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:i said that verse is about Allah's design of humans, not about Allah's account of embryology, so your question is wrong.
The thread is about the development of humans in the uterus, not their final devoloped form. So your answer is wrong.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Hombre
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Hombre »

Regardless of what she said about the Quran. (Notice the speaker is a white western woman with no resemblance to the typical Muslim woman)

These are undisputed facts.

a) The entire content of the Quran - every surah, sentence & word - all were dictated from a single source - Muhammad himself.

b) In his first experience in the cave on Mt. Hirah, Muhammad had run to his wife (Khadijah) and admitted he was suffering from some sort of mental illness ("cover me, I have gone crazy").
Now in 21 century, we know he was suffering from some form of schizophrenia. (He also suffered from epilepsy).

Therefore, all those images described in the Quran as "scientific phenomena" are the result of brain cells misfiring in Muhammad's head - thus create all those delusions of "revelations from Allah".

Finally, let's look at how Mayo Clinic defines schizophrenia:

Symptoms
Schizophrenia involves a range of problems with thinking (cognition), behavior or emotions. Signs and symptoms may vary, but usually involve delusions, hallucinations or disorganized speech, and reflect an impaired ability to function. Symptoms may include:

Delusions. These are false beliefs that are not based in reality. For example, you think that you're being harmed or harassed; certain gestures or comments are directed at you; you have exceptional ability or fame; another person is in love with you; or a major catastrophe is about to occur. Delusions occur in most people with schizophrenia.
Hallucinations. These usually involve seeing or hearing things that don't exist. Yet for the person with schizophrenia, they have the full force and impact of a normal experience. Hallucinations can be in any of the senses, but hearing voices is the most common hallucination.
Disorganized thinking (speech). Disorganized thinking is inferred from disorganized speech. Effective communication can be impaired, and answers to questions may be partially or completely unrelated. Rarely, speech may include putting together meaningless words that can't be understood, sometimes known as word salad.
Extremely disorganized or abnormal motor behavior. This may show in a number of ways, from childlike silliness to unpredictable agitation. Behavior isn't focused on a goal, so it's hard to do tasks. Behavior can include resistance to instructions, inappropriate or bizarre posture, a complete lack of response, or useless and excessive movement.
Negative symptoms. This refers to reduced or lack of ability to function normally. For example, the person may neglect personal hygiene or appear to lack emotion (doesn't make eye contact, doesn't change facial expressions or speaks in a monotone). Also, the person may have lose interest in everyday activities, socially withdraw or lack the ability to experience pleasure.

iffo
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by iffo »

They hired a British woman to make it look impressive, so people think even western people now acknowledging quran has scientific statements. They are so desperate.
All these been debunked billion times. Don't fall for these. There is no science in quran. When i read the book 'The bible quran and Science' , I became very excited, later to find out it is all nonsense.

watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X9VZZv9O8A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Hombre
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Hombre »

iffo wrote:They hired a British woman to make it look impressive, so people think even western people now acknowledging quran has scientific statements. They are so desperate.
All these been debunked billion times. Don't fall for these. There is no science in quran. When i read the book 'The bible quran and Science' , I became very excited, later to find out it is all nonsense.

watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X9VZZv9O8A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Iffo,
A wonderful piece on youtube. So what we learn is that, "Quran describes in details formation of embryo and fetus development" had copied from Aristotle who lived some 900 years before Islam, and present them as original in the Quran.

The funny part is seeing the face of those gullible Muslims when they lean that the guy whom the are arguing with is a professor of Biology

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manfred
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by manfred »

There is a disturbing fact about medicine ... until quite modern times medicine was largely based on various fanciful, unproven and untested theories, mostly first proposed by people who never practised medicine... Aristotle's half baked ideas where unquestioningly accepted by all practitioners of medicine in the western world until quite recent times ... leeches were still in use to "balance the humors in the body" until the end of the 19th century....

Medicine as a science in the true sense is in fact quite a novelty, and in many parts of the world not even fully accepted to this day. Examples are the use of Camel urine in the Arab world, and rhino horn in china. If you go to Africa you hear all kinds of ideas about healing... all far removed from real medicine.

The Qur'an is merely reflecting the state of affairs as it was during the days of Mohammed. A male and a female fluid meet to create new life. Galen, really, true, but Galen got is base ideas from Aristotle.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by frankie »

iffo wrote:They hired a British woman to make it look impressive, so people think even western people now acknowledging quran has scientific statements. They are so desperate.
All these been debunked billion times. Don't fall for these. There is no science in quran. When i read the book 'The bible quran and Science' , I became very excited, later to find out it is all nonsense.

watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X9VZZv9O8A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Iffo

Good video iffo.

The man nearest the camera is Adnan Rashid who is a regular Muslim apologist at Speakers Corner, London.

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Fernando
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Fernando »

That British woman they hired to read their script: she appears to be this lady
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_Forrester
Wikipedia recounts a previous appearance....
She also co-presented the BBC's coverage of the solar eclipse of August 1999. At the end of the same year she was also part of the corporation's team covering the turn of the new Millennium, and was duped into appearing on the spoof documentary Brass Eye's 2001 paedophilia special, in which she wore a large pair of gloves, and explained how a paedophile could use them to touch children through a screen, such as a television screen.[3]
That event is described in the Guardian
And how about the former Blue Peter presenter, Philippa Forrester, who last week left her job on Tomorrow's World after six years. Dare one suggest that she resigned in the shameful knowledge that the following day she would be appearing on Brass Eye, explaining how a paedophile wearing a pair of motorcycle gloves can reach through the screen of his PC to grope young children , a claim that would surely undermine any credibility she may have gained by working alongside Peter Snow on a popular TV science programme for several years? No, it's probably just a coincidence.
https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver ... .review117
under the heading
Stupidity scuttled Survivor
...and it also loomed large in Big Brother and among the celebrity victims of Brass Eye
Her degree, while not in stupidity, is in English. Nothing wrong with that - until she starts pretending to be a scientist.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Fernando
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Re: Quran and child development. This kinda looks convincing

Post by Fernando »

Oh, look! Here she goes again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTFCykjhWq4
Mohammed, it seems, knew all about Relativity, long before Einstein.
This one, though, is seriously contorted: the first 5 minutes of this short video are devoted to extracting one small consequence of Relativity - and that by analogy. Then, wow!, a verse in the Koran could, if you took it that way, could be saying something similar to that analogy. That bit only took a minute and a half - unsurprisingly as it is so trivial.
The remaining minute and a half is a long lead-out where the names of the perpetrators are shown alongside pictures of famouns scientists, as though they had something in common. "Content" is attributed to Dr Tarek Mustafa and the script is by Sumaia Beshir. The film goes under the banner of "No Clash" and is clearly made by the same outfit as the embyrology video....
....oh dear, there's more! Up next is: "Quran confirms evolution and human African roots - There Is No Clash"
This is self-classified as "Science and Technology"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82a0tj_rOmU
Worse, it seems they've paid her for a whole YouTube channel with at least six videos:
THE ULTIMATE DEBATE
• scientific creationism
WITH--
~Clare Forester
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCn5fWw ... b4Gv1frEjA
but I've wasted too much time already without watching any more.
Enjoy...or not!
Oh, go on then: a bit more...
It seems there are twenty of these videos, added to weekly (as of May 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... YlxGe3uBF1
And if you think they are truly wonderful, you can give them money on their Patreon site
https://www.patreon.com/ThereIsNoClash/overview
which doesn't give away anything new - such as who is behind this.
Finally, if there are any maschists (with or without gloves that will reach through TV screens) reading,
https://www.facebook.com/ThereIsNoClash/
with over 1/4 million followers, alas.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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