Page 2 of 3

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 9:31 am
by manfred
Garudaman wrote:because the universe looks intentionally has been tuned for human convenience


Ah, that is an interesting idea, Garudaman....


Then explain to me in what way Dengue fever and malaria are convenient for human kind.


Also, would it not be more likely that life on earth adapted itself to the conditions here, rather than the other way round?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:55 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Ah, that is an interesting idea, Garudaman....

Then explain to me in what way Dengue fever and malaria are convenient for human kind.

1. tuned is tuned, whether a little, or completely.
2. didnt you know how many the coincidences of the synergies of physics were needed to make the existence of life becomes possible?
3. if completely tuned then its will be heaven

manfred wrote:Also, would it not be more likely that life on earth adapted itself to the conditions here, rather than the other way round?

read point 2, there's will not be any adaptation without any tuned condition!

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:12 pm
by manfred
So, to take this idea to its logical conclusion.... You say all is planned, so malaria is planned also? How is malaria tuned to human need? Do we need malaria?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:27 pm
by Hombre
This is for our troll (SAM).

Egyptian Intellectual Dr. Khaled Montaser: Scientific Reading of the Quran Is a “Great Delusion” That Stems from Laziness


Watch this:


Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:47 pm
by Fernando
Garudaman wrote:because the universe looks intentionally has been tuned for human convenience
:BS:

Sorry Garudaman, but that's just too much. Do please send me a postcard next time you have a holiday in a black hole.

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:25 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:So, to take this idea to its logical conclusion.... You say all is planned, so malaria is planned also? How is malaria tuned to human need? Do we need malaria?

its needed to provide the possibility of deeper satisfaction in striving to worship God, & also so atheist can have excuse to deny God!

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:12 am
by Garudaman
Fernando wrote:Sorry Garudaman, but that's just too much. Do please send me a postcard next time you have a holiday in a black hole.

you mean after its turned into white hole & created the another livable universe? http://www.iflscience.com/space/black-h ... ite-holes/ sure, why not! ;)

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:49 pm
by skynightblaze
Garudaman wrote:because the universe looks intentionally has been tuned for human convenience


Earth is a tiny dot when you compare it with universe. Considering the fact that almost the entire universe (except earth) is barren where no life can survive how can you say universe is fine tuned for life? What purpose does the barren planets serve? If they serve no purpose why create them?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:52 pm
by Nosuperstition
Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:So, to take this idea to its logical conclusion.... You say all is planned, so malaria is planned also? How is malaria tuned to human need? Do we need malaria?

its needed to provide the possibility of deeper satisfaction in striving to worship God, & also so atheist can have excuse to deny God!


Yes mother Theresa intentionally sought the suffering ones because they are likely to be the ones who will be most devout in their worship.I too used to experience the same during fevers in my childhood.But honestly malaria should not be on the menu because its horrible.You have to completely forgo oily and spicy food for days and days together.As a grown up it is easy to forgo tasty food but as a child it is not at all easy.If diagnosed wrongly and treated with antibiotics,the micro-organism escapes into cell interiors and resurfaces once again at a later date as it is immune to antibiotics.Happened that way once with me.

Another dreadful disease is cholera.I had to remain in hospital for 15 days and had to eat only curd rice and banana for more than one month after getting discharged.

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 3:00 pm
by Nosuperstition
manfred wrote:
Garudaman wrote:because the universe looks intentionally has been tuned for human convenience


Ah, that is an interesting idea, Garudaman....


Then explain to me in what way Dengue fever and malaria are convenient for human kind.


Also, would it not be more likely that life on earth adapted itself to the conditions here, rather than the other way round?


Let alone universe,why wasn't even the earth fine tuned for humans during the age of dinosaurs?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 3:08 pm
by skynightblaze
Garudaman wrote:2. didnt you know how many the coincidences of the synergies of physics were needed to make the existence of life becomes possible?


Why can't it be a mere coincidence? Mathematically, the probability may be less but you cant write it off and attribute to God just because the probability is too less. It only means chances are less, it does not mean it can never occur. We see many cases here on earth where probability is very thin but yet those events do happen. So why not this one?

Garudaman wrote:read point 2, there's will not be any adaptation without any tuned condition!


Why have some species become extinct if universe was fine tuned for adaptation? If you look at the other species only 10% make it to adulthood. You call this fine tuning? Its pathetic performance if this is the result that you achieve after fine tuning and that too from an all powerful/wise God. You might claim that earth is fine tuned for humans but that is still not true. Consider one of the following example.

Since the beginning of the age of the Enlightenment and over the course of modernization, the mortality of children below 5 years of age has declined rapidly. Child mortality in rich countries today is much lower than 1%. This is a very recent development and was only reached after a hundredfold decline in child mortality in these countries. In early-modern times, child mortality was very high; in 18th century Sweden every third child died, and in 19th century Germany every second child died. With declining poverty and increasing knowledge and service in the health sector, child mortality around the world is declining very rapidly: Global child mortality fell from 18.2% in 1960 to 4.3% in 2015; while 4.3% is still too high, this is a substantial achievement.


https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

If universe itself was fined tuned for life, we would not have high mortality rates for e.g in sweden every third child died and while in Germany every second child died. The rates of mortality have reduced because of advancement in medical science and it has nothing to do with fine tuning of universe or else we would never have seen such high mortality rates.

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 3:16 pm
by skynightblaze
Another strong argument against universe being fine tuned for human beings which I missed is - Earth is 4.5 billion years old while human beings are hardly a few million years old. If earth was fine tuned for humans then we should be seeing human being in existence right from the birth of earth.

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:50 pm
by Fernando
Garudaman wrote:
Fernando wrote:Sorry Garudaman, but that's just too much. Do please send me a postcard next time you have a holiday in a black hole.

you mean after its turned into white hole & created the another livable universe? http://www.iflscience.com/space/black-h ... ite-holes/ sure, why not! ;)
Nice one, Garuaman - touche, I must admit. :sml:
However... in that case, about this other universe: does it have its Allah, and if so is it the same Allah?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:28 pm
by Garudaman
skynightblaze wrote:Earth is a tiny dot when you compare it with universe. Considering the fact that almost the entire universe (except earth) is barren where no life can survive how can you say universe is fine tuned for life? What purpose does the barren planets serve? If they serve no purpose why create them?

that's doesn't matter as long there's still too many the coincidences of the synergies of physics were needed to make the existence of life becomes possible, like the gravity for example, how if gravity doesnt exist? or work as push out instead pull in? or doesnt attract the time so there's will be many white hole/big bang http://www.iflscience.com/space/black-h ... ite-holes/ ? & thats just gravity, what about the other physics laws were needed to make the existence of life becomes possible?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:36 pm
by skynightblaze
Garudaman wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:Earth is a tiny dot when you compare it with universe. Considering the fact that almost the entire universe (except earth) is barren where no life can survive how can you say universe is fine tuned for life? What purpose does the barren planets serve? If they serve no purpose why create them?

that's doesn't matter as long there's still too many the coincidences of the synergies of physics were needed to make the existence of life becomes possible, like the gravity for example, how if gravity doesnt exist? or work as push out instead pull in? or doesnt attract the time so there's will be many white hole/big bang http://www.iflscience.com/space/black-h ... ite-holes/ ? & thats just gravity, what about the other physics laws were needed to make the existence of life becomes possible?


You might want to read the interview of a mathematician David Hand who wrote the book The Improbability Principle,

In your recent book The Improbability Principle, you state that extremely unlikely events are commonplace. How so?
At first glance, it sounds like a contradiction: if something is highly improbable, how can it possibly be commonplace? But as you dig deeper you see it is not a contradiction, and that you should expect what appear to be extremely improbable events to occur quite often. The principle itself is really an interweaving of five fundamental laws.

Could you give an example of one of those laws?
Take the law of truly large numbers. The most obvious example of this is the lottery. In the UK you have a 1 in 14 million chance of winning if you buy just one ticket. But of course if you get enough people buying enough tickets it becomes almost inevitable that somebody somewhere will win. Another example is the chance of being struck by lightning. Around the world there’s a 1 in 300,000 chance of being killed by lightning in any one year. The rational thing is to behave as if it’s not going to happen to you. But there are 7 billion people in the world, so there are a lot of opportunities for it to happen. In fact the chance that no one will be killed is about 10−10,133. So we should expect to see someone killed. In fact about 24,000 people every year are killed by lightning, and about 10 times that many are injured.




https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... gly-often/

Here is one such coincidence..

Image

You can find more such improbable events here ;

http://www.cracked.com/pictofacts-459-t ... -happened/

The bottom line is - Improbable events having very very less likelihood occur many times so why not in case of earth?

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:40 pm
by skynightblaze
Creationists, William Lane Craig and all manner of non-rationalists like to disparage their opponents or bolster their own arguments by pointing out the lack of probability of something happening. Out of all the possibilities, they say, this one is the one that occurred - how fantastically unlikely and amazingly miraculous! It is simply impossible to believe that it just happened by chance!

But improbable things happen all the time, because "improbability" is an illusion based on our preconceptions. Often it has nothing to do with statistical truth.


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Improbable_things_happen
More can be explored in the link..

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:48 pm
by Garudaman
skynightblaze wrote:The bottom line is - Improbable events having very very less likelihood occur many times so why not in case of earth?

https://www.sciencealert.com/earth-was- ... tudy-finds
a new study suggests that Earth is one of the first habitable planets to form - and we're probably too early to the party to get a chance to meet future alien civilisations.

The research looked at data from the Hubble and Kepler space telescopes, and predicted that 92 percent of the Universe's habitable planets have yet to be born. And most won't form until after our Sun burns out in 6 billion years' time.

https://futurism.com/universe-full-habi ... ds-no-sun/
The Universe May Be Full of Habitable Worlds That Have No Sun

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:24 pm
by skynightblaze
@Garudaman

You are missing the point. The possibility of rare events happening is quite common. The link that I shared above shares 20 such events which are extremely rare but yet they happened nevertheless. Therefore your argument that such a unique combination cannot happen on its own unless someone did it intentionally loses its power as we see that unique combination does happen quite frequently on their own. Its a common phenomenon and hence this argument cannot be used to prove existence of God. Creation of earth and life is not the only unique or rare event that has happened till date. You may however argue that just because unique combinations can happen on their own, it does not necessarily follow that every time unique combinations happen , they happen without God. There are 2 possibilities :
1) God did it
2) It happened on its own

My argument does not disprove that God is not behind it. All it says is- it could have happened on its own. In short, your argument is not conclusive.

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 7:39 pm
by Fernando
Improbable or not, skynightblaze, Garudaman just doesn't get it: life happened spontaneously and developed in the universe that was there; the universe wasn't prepared for life as he claims. I doubt we'll persuade him otherwise, though, if he thinks Allah did it.

Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:11 pm
by manfred
Hi garudaman, the idea that malaria exists as a "test" for humans makes not a lot of sense for two reasons:

1) Why would an all know being need to see a "test" like that? Would it not show that this being is not only falsely claiming that he is all knowing and therefore a liar, but also that he is hostile and cruel towards humans?

2) There are over 200 species of animals which can host malaria, including many reptiles even, which have been around a lo longer that humans. In fact, Malaria PRE-DATES humanity. So who was tested before the humans? Some lizards?

And also, you claim that gravity was created for the benefit of people.

As gravity certainly existed long before humanity, it simple has to be the other way round. Humans in their own way adapted to gravity. It is not a miracle that human muscles are working best on earth: that is where they developed. If there is life on other planets, then it will be entirely different from life on earth, perhaps even so different that do not even recognise it. Life there will have similarly have developed to adapt to the situation it was found itself in.

We have animals with no pigments in the skin and no eyes at all. All of these live in permanently dark places, such as deep inside caves. But the caves were not created for their convenience, these animals adapted to their environment.