Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
MohamedLuq93
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Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by MohamedLuq93 »

I was arguing with a Muslim regarding the Quranic verses 36:37-40. I claimed the Quran uses the geocentric approach because verses 36:38 states that the sun goes to its stopping point/resting place. The other person them immediately said that this is referring to the lifetime/lifespan of the sun. I feel this doesn't make any sense Because when we look at the verses before and after, his interpretation doesn't make sense coz we see the verses speaking about a sign, that is the "Night" And what has the night got to do with the lifespan of the sun? Do you think his interpretation is out of context? what are your thoughts on his interpretation?

36:37 - And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness.

36:38 - And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

36:39 - And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

36:40 - It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

frankie
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by frankie »

MohamedLuq93 wrote:I was arguing with a Muslim regarding the Quranic verses 36:37-40. I claimed the Quran uses the geocentric approach because verses 36:38 states that the sun goes to its stopping point/resting place. The other person them immediately said that this is referring to the lifetime/lifespan of the sun. I feel this doesn't make any sense Because when we look at the verses before and after, his interpretation doesn't make sense coz we see the verses speaking about a sign, that is the "Night" And what has the night got to do with the lifespan of the sun? Do you think his interpretation is out of context? what are your thoughts on his interpretation?

36:37 - And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are [left] in darkness.

36:38 - And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

36:39 - And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.

36:40 - It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
MohammedLuq93

The Quran proves many times it is a man made book not a god made book, this is just one of the many instances which proves it.

These verses are explained in the tafsirs,which point to what the pagan Arabs thought happened to the sun, with the appearance of night and day.

They thought wrongly the sun had an orbit:

"it keeps moving in its summer orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that, then it moves to its winter orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that"


http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/36.40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon) it is not proper for the sun to rise where the moon appears such that it takes away its light, (nor doth the night outstrip the day) nor does the night come at the time of the day such that it eclipses its brightness. (They) the sun, the moon and the planets (float each in an orbit) revolve and turn round an orbit.


(Part)
Ibn Kathir Quran 36.37
And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing) There are two views over the meaning of the phrase
لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَـا
(on its fixed course for a term (appointed). ) (The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, beyond the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the roof of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is above the universe, above the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks for permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths. Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Dharr, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "I was with the Prophet in the Masjid at sunset, and he said: :
«يَا أَبَا ذَرَ، أَتَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَغْرُبُ الشَّمْسُ؟»
(O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets) I said, `Allah and His Messenger know best.' He said:
«فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ حَتْى تَسْجُدَ تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ، فَذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُ تَعَالَى:
وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِى لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَـا ذَلِكَ تَقْدِيرُ الْعَزِيزِ الْعَلِيمِ»
(It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, and that is what Allah says: (And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.))'' It was also reported that Abu Dharr, may Allah be pleased with him, said, "I asked the Messenger of Allah about the Ayah:
وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِى لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَـا
(And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term. ) He said:
«مُسْتَقَرُّهَا تَحْتَ الْعَرْش»
(Its fixed course is beneath the Throne.)'' (The second view) is that this refers to when the sun's appointed time comes to an end, which will be on the Day of Resurrection, when its fixed course will be abolished, it will come to a halt and it will be rolled up. This world will come to an end, and that will be the end of its appointed time. This is the fixed course of its time. Qatadah said:
لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَـا
(on its fixed course for a term (appointed).) means, "It has an appointed time and it will not go beyond that.'' It was also said that this means, it keeps moving in its summer orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that, then it moves to its winter orbit for a certain time, and it does not exceed that. This was narrated from `Abdullah bin `Amr, may Allah be pleased with him. Ibn Mas`ud and Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them, recited this Ayah as: (وَالشَّمْسُ تَجْرِي لَامُسْتَقَرَّ لَهَا) (And the sun runs with no fixed course for a term,) meaning that it has no destination and it does not settle in one place, rather it keeps moving night and day, never slowing down or stopping, as in the Ayah:
وَسَخَّر لَكُمُ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ دَآئِبَينَ
(And He has made the sun and the moon, both constantly pursuing their courses, to be of service to you) (14:33). which means, they will never slow down or stop, until the Day of Resurrection.

MohamedLuq93
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by MohamedLuq93 »

Yep. It is indeed primitive knowledge. What do you think Not Ibn Kathir's second view where he states that the suns appointed time comes to and end? Can this be included as a valid interpretation? Because the verses start by saying the night is a sign. I was wondering what has the night got to do with the lifespan of the sun.

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Hombre
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by Hombre »

Muhammad,
Had you stayed long enough to argue with the Muslim guy - sure enough, he would also "prove" to you that, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was originated in the Quran.

How the hell a manuscript made of only 6626 sentences, contain all humanity's wisdom & knowledge?. The Hebrew Bible & new Testament - each 3 time bigger then the Quran don't claim such outrageous feat as Muslims to for the Quran.

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Fernando
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by Fernando »

MohamedLuq93 wrote:Yep. It is indeed primitive knowledge. What do you think Not Ibn Kathir's second view where he states that the suns appointed time comes to and end? Can this be included as a valid interpretation? Because the verses start by saying the night is a sign. I was wondering what has the night got to do with the lifespan of the sun.
The Arabs of those days might have been excellent at the astronomy of their times, but they had no knowledge of the cosmology that recognises that the sun is a star and that stars have a lifetime. Their primitive understanding can be seen from
36:38 - And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing
which shows that they not only were geocentic but even thought that the earth's non-existent orbit was not so much an orbit as an oscillation!
If you were to find the source of his claim, chances are it would be a modern after-thought cooked up to justify the Koran.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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manfred
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by manfred »

The other person them immediately said that this is referring to the lifetime/lifespan of the sun.
Well, Mohammed says this in Sahih Muslim:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the Sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the Sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
Sahih Muslim 1:297
So if the verses you mentioned are not an actual description of the sun's (and moon's) behaviour, as you friend says, why would Mohammed says such a thing as in this hadith? Does Mohammed reject the Qur'an, or failed to understand it? It is classed as sahih, so the usual dismissal as "unreliable" is not working.


And also you may perhaps ask him if he remembers the story of Zul-qarnain in the Qur'an. There is a REAL setting places ON EARTH, next to a pool of murky water, where there are PEOPLE (i.e. a real place on the real earth). How would he account for that?


Alternatively, you may want to ask for any Muslim scholar suggesting that the earth revolves around the sun according to the Qur'an who lived before Gallileo or Copernicus. There is overwhelming evidence that Mohammed believed the earth to be flat and that the sun and moon were roughly of equal size, following a course round the "disk world", and that the heavens were solid things, organised in 7 spheres, with the earth below us also into seven earths.

What has happened is this: As Muslims discover that some of the old assumptions of the Qur'an are not true, but merely reflect the time of the writing, they "re-interpret". As it cannot be what may not be, i.e. there are some factual errors in the Qur'an, these are, as they emerge , explained away by assigning new meanings to old texts. In fact, the "meaning" of the Qur'an should be that what Mohammed himself said and believed, and not something concocted centuries later, as new facts come to light.

What is more, even today you find Muslim scholars saying that science is plain wrong, evil and heretical even, and according to the Qur'an the earth is flat, with the sun and moon orbiting it.

Here is an example of one, in a clip, in Arabic language:

https://www.memri.org/tv/iraqi-research ... -also-flat" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That man repeats what ealy Muslims believed, what Mohammed believed, and what early tafsir states.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by frankie »

The fact the earth is a sphere (as too are the sun, moon and all the known planets)is proved by eclipses ,either a solar eclipse, when the Moon's shadow crosses the Earth's surface, or a lunar eclipse, when the Moon moves into the Earth's shadow.

All "fit "perfectly together because they are the same shape, ROUND.

idesigner1
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by idesigner1 »

frankie wrote:The fact the earth is a sphere (as too are the sun, moon and all the known planets)is proved by eclipses ,either a solar eclipse, when the Moon's shadow crosses the Earth's surface, or a lunar eclipse, when the Moon moves into the Earth's shadow.

All "fit "perfectly together because they are the same shape, ROUND.
Sun moon and earth are not same shape, they are not perfect spheres either. They can be described as round shape from distance. All large heavenly bodies appear spherical from distance.

At time of any eclipse it's not perfect fit. Eclipse effect is created by a fit in distance. Once earth or moon moves away a bit there won't be total eclipse, it will be partial and finally no eclipse once moon moves away from earths Earth.

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ygalg
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by ygalg »

Hombre wrote:Muhammad,
Had you stayed long enough to argue with the Muslim guy - sure enough, he would also "prove" to you that, Einstein's Theory of Relativity was originated in the Quran.

How the hell a manuscript made of only 6626 sentences, contain all humanity's wisdom & knowledge?. The Hebrew Bible & new Testament - each 3 time bigger then the Quran don't claim such outrageous feat as Muslims to for the Quran.
actually, the bible has is a shortage as well e.g Joshua 10:12-14
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer


frankie
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:night = time the sun stop shining/rest = darkness = no glare = convenience = the sign that universe intentionally has been tuned for human convenience
That's your interpretation, not your own source materials interpretation, who are Muslims likely to listen to and take seriously, you, or their own respected scholars who interpret Allah's words?

However your own scholars tell you something which is not true, that the sun moves around the sky in its own orbit, which is provably false, the sun is fixed, it does not move anywhere because it is a star not a planet, it is only planets that have orbits which move around the sun.

The Quran got it wrong because it reflects what the Arabs understood at the time of its writing,proving the Quran is not divine in origin, but a product of mans imagination.


http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/36.40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon) it is not proper for the sun to rise where the moon appears such that it takes away its light, (nor doth the night outstrip the day) nor does the night come at the time of the day such that it eclipses its brightness. (They) the sun, the moon and the planets (float each in an orbit) revolve and turn round an orbit.

(Part)
Ibn Kathir Quran 36.37
And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing) There are two views over the meaning of the phrase
لِمُسْتَقَرٍّ لَّهَـا
(on its fixed course for a term (appointed). ) (The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, beyond the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the roof of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is a dome supported by legs or pillars, carried by the angels, and it is above the universe, above the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne.

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Fernando
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:night = time the sun stop shining/rest = darkness = no glare = convenience = the sign that universe intentionally has been tuned for human convenience
Well, at least this is consistent with the idea in your sig that air was designed to allow birds to fly. Equally wrong, of course.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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manfred
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by manfred »

The sun stops shining at night?
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sum
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Which observers do you mean that while some observers at night will not see the sun shining those observers elsewhere on the planet will see the sun shining but Muhammad did not know that?

Was Muhammad devoid of knowledge?

sum


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manfred
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by manfred »

Why would the Qur'an speak of things that everyone can see as if that was in fact what is really happening?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"


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manfred
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Re: Can someone check if this Makes any sense.

Post by manfred »

You know that God exists because it is dark in the night?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"


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