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Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:14 pm
by manfred
they were already present if the mean of that family are his mother & brothers,


dear garudaman, what is it with you and this story? Just read what it says.

Let me help you:

The story has three "scenes":

Scene one

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”


So Jesus went to this house and there was a commotion. Some people want to take control of him. Who ? "οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ". Literally "those with him". Family? friends? Followers? The Greek word for an actual family is "οικογένεια", but Mark uses a loose expression here. It COULD be some family members, it could also be other who are close to him. At this stage we do not know any more about that, but things get clearer later on.

Scene two
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”


Now we are taken into the house and there a heated argument, which does not seem to interest you very much. However, you can see that there was some coming and going, as well as discussions, and we are told Jesus told them "parables"... teaching stories. Mark only provides a very short summary, and we can be quite sure this went on for some time. We are also told others arrive in the course of that.

Scene three:
31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”


I highlighted the part you seem to dislike and persistently ignore. Notice the "then" (=terus)? Mark tells his story IN ORDER. So When the discussions (of most of them) described in scene two have been going on for a time, Mary arrives, with the brothers of Jesus. This means they were not there when those "with him" called Jesus mad and wanted to take charge.

Mary tried to extract Jesus from the house with a message, but Jesus decided it was more important to finish his teaching.

thats not true, the Quran never said that.


Yes it is. And I can show you, if you want.

Jesus disciples are the part of the ministry or the monastery of Jesus?


I said the passage is sometimes read at the ceremony of the vows, when someone becomes a monk or a nun, because the of the way it ends: a monk or a nun also leaves behind his/her family.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:14 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:dear garudaman, what is it with you and this story? Just read what it says.

Let me help you:

The story has three "scenes":

Scene one

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

So Jesus went to this house and there was a commotion. Some people want to take control of him. Who ? "οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ". Literally "those with him". Family? friends? Followers? The Greek word for an actual family is "οικογένεια", but Mark uses a loose expression here. It COULD be some family members, it could also be other who are close to him. At this stage we do not know any more about that, but things get clearer later on.

you could counted it as one scene, but thats one scene with two different setting :

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

manfred wrote:Scene two

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”

Now we are taken into the house and there a heated argument, which does not seem to interest you very much. However, you can see that there was some coming and going, as well as discussions, and we are told Jesus told them "parables"... teaching stories. Mark only provides a very short summary, and we can be quite sure this went on for some time. We are also told others arrive in the course of that.

yes, its true, we are taken into the house now, but thats not first time we're taken into the house :

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”


manfred wrote:Scene three:

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”


I highlighted the part you seem to dislike and persistently ignore. Notice the "then" (=terus)? Mark tells his story IN ORDER. So When the discussions (of most of them) described in scene two have been going on for a time, Mary arrives, with the brothers of Jesus. This means they were not there when those "with him" called Jesus mad and wanted to take charge.

those who called Jesus out of his mind, it is the different group, with the group who want to take charge of Jesus (if Jesus really lost of his mind), as the reason the group who want to take charge of Jesus went to take charge of Jesus, its because they heard the group who called Jesus out of his mind, said Jesus out of his mind.

manfred wrote:Mary tried to extract Jesus from the house with a message, but Jesus decided it was more important to finish his teaching.

the take charge of Jesus by Mary, is the take charge with condition if Jesus really out of his mind, so that extract by Mary is not the extract that prevent Jesus to do whatever he do except for a while, to check whether Jesus was really out of his mind or not, which is its still a problem for Jesus because Mary should know that Jesus is Messenger of God.

manfred wrote:Yes it is. And I can show you, if you want.

show me then,

manfred wrote:I said the passage is sometimes read at the ceremony of the vows, when someone becomes a monk or a nun, because the of the way it ends: a monk or a nun also leaves behind his/her family.

i said this argument :
manfred wrote:Jesus is starting his ministry, and he needs to step away from his immediate family to do that effectively.

is wrong, because he needs everybody to support his ministry, including his families, & tha fact that there's his family members in his disciples is the evidence.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:18 am
by manfred
I think we have done that simple passage to death now, and there is really nothing much more that I could say to you about. To be honest, it saddens me, that you are unwilling to even look at it properly, and only see it as a means to make a point, which the text does not support.

is wrong, because he needs everybody to support his ministry, including his families, & tha fact that there's his family members in his disciples is the evidence.


Jesus left his family when he started his ministry properly, and stayed with his 12 disciples. He kept only loose contact to his mother, and she does not really re-appear until the crucifixion.

It has always been seen as an example in the Christian church, meaning that those who want to follow Jesus in his ministry should stay single, and have no family ties.

Only much later, among protestant Christians, was this connections severed, and minsters were allowed to marry.

But Muslims seem to sometimes have great problems in understanding that. I remember one Muslim guy years back who seriously suggested because Jesus never married he was gay and had 12 boyfriends.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:53 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:I think we have done that simple passage to death now, and there is really nothing much more that I could say to you about. To be honest, it saddens me, that you are unwilling to even look at it properly, and only see it as a means to make a point, which the text does not support.

so you must be sad for whoever put a large title Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law in https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV too eh?

https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/N ... NIV-Bible/
Version Information
The New International Version (NIV) is a completely original translation of the Bible developed by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.

dont forget these guys : http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/3-21.htm
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) And when his friends . . .—Literally, those from Him—i.e., from His home. As the “mother and the brethren” are mentioned later on in the chapter as coming to check His teaching

Geneva Study Bible
(4) None are worse enemies of the gospel than they that should be enemies of it the least.
(n) Literally, they that were of him, that is, his relatives: for they that were mad were brought to their relatives.

:lotpot:

manfred wrote:Jesus left his family when he started his ministry properly, and stayed with his 12 disciples. He kept only loose contact to his mother, and she does not really re-appear until the crucifixion.

Jesus left Mary not his brothers, because Mary didnt join his ministry/preaching, not because Jesus separated her, & the celibate is Paul teaching, not Jesus teaching.

manfred wrote:It has always been seen as an example in the Christian church, meaning that those who want to follow Jesus in his ministry should stay single, and have no family ties.

the fact that there's Jesus family members among the Jesus ministry has proven you wrong.

manfred wrote:Only much later, among protestant Christians, was this connections severed, and minsters were allowed to marry.

But Muslims seem to sometimes have great problems in understanding that. I remember one Muslim guy years back who seriously suggested because Jesus never married he was gay and had 12 boyfriends.

thats because is possible for people to preaching while married/have family.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:39 am
by manfred
so you must be sad for whoever put a large title Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law

for the umteenth time verse 21:

καὶ ἀκούσαντες οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ ἐξῆλθον κρατῆσαι αὐτόν· ἔλεγον γὰρ ὅτι ἐξέστη.


οἱ = those
παρ’ -short for παρα =with
αὐτοῦ =him (genitive)

"those with him" is what it says. His actual family arrive later.


And Jesus spent most of his teaching time being accused and persecuted... he was in the end executed because people accused him of proclaiming himself "king of the Jews"... which he didn't)

Jesus left Mary not his brothers, because Mary didnt join his ministry/preaching, not because Jesus separated her, & the celibate is Paul teaching, not Jesus teaching.


His brothers were on part of the twelve disciples. Only later, after the crucifixion, did the family of Jesus, specially his bother James, but also Mary, play a part in the early church.

Jesus was celibate, and Paul highlighted his example. Jesus also demanded of his disciples to leave their family behind, and even suggested "let the dead bury the dead", meaning that even a death in the family is no excuse.

thats because is possible for people to preaching while married/have family.


Sure. But it easier if you do not have such commitments. It is a rule (which could in theory be abolished) in the Catholic church for clergy (except deacons) to be unmarried. In the orthodox church bishops must be monks.

Your rather obstinate refusal to process the text as it is is what saddens me. It also suggests to me you are not discussing you are merely trying to irritate.

Be that as it may, you brought it up, you had it exhaustively explained, so there is nothing more I can do.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:13 pm
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:
so you must be sad for whoever put a large title Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law

for the umteenth time verse 21:

καὶ ἀκούσαντες οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ ἐξῆλθον κρατῆσαι αὐτόν· ἔλεγον γὰρ ὅτι ἐξέστη.

οἱ = those
παρ’ -short for παρα =with
αὐτοῦ =him (genitive)

"those with him" is what it says. His actual family arrive later.

or those from him (i,e. from his home) :
http://www.sabda.org/sabdaweb/tools/lexicon/?w=3844
Dalam AV: of 51, with 42, from 24, by ... side 15, at 12, than 11, misc 45

Definisi: 1) from, of at, by, besides, near

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/3-21.htm
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) And when his friends . . .—Literally, those from Him—i.e., from His home.

Geneva Study Bible
(4) None are worse enemies of the gospel than they that should be enemies of it the least.
(n) Literally, they that were of him, that is, his relatives: for they that were mad were brought to their relatives.

& dont forget κρατεω :
they were already present if the mean of that family are his mother & brothers, especially if they went to take charge of him, except people used to being taken charged by their friend/neighbour.
http://www.sabda.org/sabdaweb/bible/cha ... e=clearsky
http://www.sabda.org/sabdaweb/tools/lexicon/?w=2902
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%C ... E%AD%CF%89

beside that, there's no way a family take charge of their adult family member, except because a thing like, their adult family member being lost of his/her mind, isnt?


manfred wrote:And Jesus spent most of his teaching time being accused and persecuted... he was in the end executed because people accused him of proclaiming himself "king of the Jews"... which he didn't

claim of "King of Jews" is indeed punishable by the death penalty by Roman Law! "out of his mind" or "possessed by Beelzebul"?

manfred wrote:Jesus was celibate, and Paul highlighted his example. Jesus also demanded of his disciples to leave their family behind, and even suggested "let the dead bury the dead", meaning that even a death in the family is no excuse.

Matthew 19 (NIV) :
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

manfred wrote:Sure. But it easier if you do not have such commitments.

what if your family help or join your ministry & make your ministry become easier or more widespread? what if your family make you become a better preacher?

manfred wrote:It is a rule (which could in theory be abolished) in the Catholic church for clergy (except deacons) to be unmarried. In the orthodox church bishops must be monks.

so what is this?

1 Timothy 3:5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:11 pm
by manfred
garudaman, celibacy is a personal choice. It does not make you special in the eyes of God, but it has some practical advantages.

I have made that choice a great many years ago, and I can tell you from practical experience that many things I did would have been very hard with a family.
For example, I moved to quite a few places, also in other countries. If I had children, they would have to each time start a new school, make new friends, sometimes even learn a new language too.

I am not suggesting it is for everyone, nor do I claim I deserve any respect or reward for that.

Jesus also made such a choice in his life, and most of his early close followers did likewise. But that does not mean it is what everybody should do.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:28 pm
by manfred
or those from him (i,e. from his home) :


And you still go on and on about that?

the word you quibble about is "para" .

We use that same word in a number of "loan words":

"paramedic".... not a medic as such, but someone connected to the medical profession, a "first aider" or an ambulance driver, perhaps.
"paraolympics" not the Olympics as such, but something very similar, for disabled people.
"paradox" --- not a properly valid opinion or view, something "beside" or "separate" from that.
paradigm ---- something "to say alongside" i.e. an example

Greek has two words for with, quite similar to the two words for "we" in Indonesian....

para ... with as in along side, but separate from it.
syn ... with it as a part....

So you would say "I am with (syn) that group" meaning you are a member of the group, but if you say "I am with (para) that group"" you mean I am in the same place of that group but do not belong to it.

A bit like "kami" and "kita"...

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:54 pm
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:garudaman, celibacy is a personal choice. It does not make you special in the eyes of God.

but Matthew 19:4-6 seems suggest that its make you better in the eyes of God, isnt?

manfred wrote:If I had children, they would have to each time start a new school, make new friends, sometimes even learn a new language too.

thats means more good deeds eh?

manfred wrote:Jesus also made such a choice in his life, and most of his early close followers did likewise. But that does not mean it is what everybody should do.

well, did we really know, whether Jesus, really choose to celibate, didnt married bacause didnt have chance, or married but the gospel didnt record it?

manfred wrote:"paramedic".... not a medic as such, but someone connected to the medical profession, a "first aider" or an ambulance driver, perhaps.
"paraolympics" not the Olympics as such, but something very similar, for disabled people.
"paradox" --- not a properly valid opinion or view, something "beside" or "separate" from that.
paradigm ---- something "to say alongside" i.e. an example

para ... with as in along side, but separate from it.

Mary & Jesus's brothers are not Jesus, separated to Jesus, but connected & in Jesus side.

manfred wrote:syn ... with it as a part....

So you would say "I am with (syn) that group" meaning you are a member of the group, but if you say "I am with (para) that group" you mean I am in the same place of that group but do not belong to it.

same home is including same place? & that Mary & Jesus brothers are not yet part of Jesus ministry, isnt?

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:10 pm
by manfred
garudaman, I am an old man, and you are making me very tired.
but Matthew 19:4-6 seems suggest that its make you better in the eyes of God, isnt?

Please do look at the bits you quote. That is about marriage and divorce.

thats means more good deeds eh?

No, not really. There are good people who are celibate as well as quite wicked people.

Think of it as a "life-style". You can "serve God" in many ways, and by doing many things. There is a particular "path" that involved celibacy. It does not in itself make you a better or worse person, it is WHAT YOU DO WITH IT. The same applies for married life. Some people set an example to others with their married life, and others make each other's life a living hell on earth.

well, did we really know, whether Jesus, really choose to celibate, didnt married bacause didnt have chance, or married but the gospel didnt record it?


Well, we have the testimony of the gospels and we know from some of those who knew Jesus personally, such as John and Peter.

and how many more times would like me to go over Mark 3? We know that Mary and the brothers of Jesus were not present at the start of the story, because it explicitly says they arrived later. It is not good for you to try and make things fit your own ideas. Let Mark tell you the story and take it as it is. You do something similar with the Qur'an, quite often: when something is not what you expect, you play with words until it fits your own ideas, but it no longer is the original text.

And all this because you like to guess what Mary at that point believed his son to be....

We simply cannot answer that with certainty, but we do have a clue:

The only childhood story about Jesus in the gospels was the one in Luke, about Jesus sneaking off and staying behind in Jerusalem, and his parents had to go back and look for him. Jesus then told them that the temple was "his father's house", but Mary did not properly understand. However, she kept this "in her heart".

Chronologically, the wedding in Cana is later than that, and here Mary seems to have an inkling that Jesus is "special", as yourself looked up and pointed out.

The events referred to in Mark 3 are AFTER this, and John hints at this by saying Jesus went to Capernaum after the wedding, and Mark 3 is set in Capernaum, as verse 1 of chapter 2 tells us.

So we have a time line: the boy Jesus in the temple (Luke), then the calling of the disciples (in all gospels), then the wedding in Cana (John), then the trip to Capernaum (both John and Mark) and then the events you mention.


So the best I can do is to suggest that Mary's understanding of who Jesus GREW over time, and it would make no sense to suggest it would go backwards. So, if Mary in Cana was aware of Jesus being in some way special, she would hardly have forgotten that a few days later.

What we can also say is that the BROTHERS of Jesus (who also arrived later) did not believe in Jesus, at least not yet. Mary, at least to some extent, did at this point. We know this from John, who in chapter 7 talks about the brothers of Jesus.... they wanted Jesus out of their lives and asked him to go and preach somewhere else. John plainly says they did not believe in him.

So did they think of him as mad? Who knows, they did not say... but they certainly saw him as a nuisance. However, much later, after the death of Jesus, one of his brothers, one called James, got involved in the early church. So it seems at least for some of them "knowing" Jesus was a long journey.

Mary, as I said, was somewhat different.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:04 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Please do look at the bits you quote. That is about marriage and divorce.

yeah, but the context doesnt change the base, as even there's no people which ask to Jesus about divorce, its doesnt change that God made humans as male & female with the intention to make humans become together as couple, another example : a muslim feel happy because Palestine became UN State, however if there's no any muslim who feel happy or anything about that, its doesnt change the fact that Palestine became UN State.

manfred wrote:Well, we have the testimony of the gospels and we know from some of those who knew Jesus personally, such as John and Peter.

could you link me your references?

manfred wrote:and how many more times would like me to go over Mark 3? We know that Mary and the brothers of Jesus were not present at the start of the story, because it explicitly says they arrived later. It is not good for you to try and make things fit your own ideas.

nope, its explicitly said that those para/with Jesus went to take charge of Jesus, Mary fit for para criteria & only Mary who can take charge of Jesus.

manfred wrote:So we have a time line: the boy Jesus in the temple (Luke), then the calling of the disciples (in all gospels), then the wedding in Cana (John), then the trip to Capernaum (both John and Mark) and then the events you mention.

So, if Mary in Cana was aware of Jesus being in some way special, she would hardly have forgotten that a few days later.

but she have forgotten that according to Mark, as Mark said Mary went to take charge of Jesus for peoples said Jesus is out of his mind.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:25 am
by manfred
Garudaman, this is getting silly:

but she have forgotten that according to Mark, as Mark said Mary went to take charge of Jesus for peoples said Jesus is out of his mind.


Where did he say that?

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”


Garudaman, I have explained this passage to you a dozen times now, if you will not do it over and over. I really have other things to do.

For the absolute last time: Some people with Jesus got angry with him and called him mad. They threatened to get violent. (that is what the reference to krateo means, using force.) Maybe some relatives or friends, maybe just people who knew him.... NOT his mother though, she came later.

There is a heated discussion with more name calling.

THEN, after some had passed, Mary arrives. She sends a message to Jesus to come out. Obviously she wanted to diffuse the situation. Mark does not say Mary thinks Jesus is mad and he needs to be locked up. That is what YOU say, not Mark.

But you were not there. So you don't know.

So let's see if your guess is sensible...

Here is a similar thing:

Suppose you have a son, garudaman. One day you get a phone call from a school friend of your son's. "Come quick! Your son is in a big argument with some boys from school. The threaten to hit him and call him mad. It could get ugly."

So you go to the school... what would you do:

a) because the other boys say he is mad you trust their expertise as psychiatrists and take your own son to a mental hospital and lock in a cell there.

b) You call you son over to get him out of trouble and you see the teacher and/or take him home to allow things to calm down.

Which would you do?

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:24 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Where did he say that?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
Jesus Accused by His Family and by Teachers of the Law

20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this (Mary heard this at Mary/Jesus house), they (Mary) went to take charge (responsibility/krateo/authority) of him, for (someone told Mary that) they (a crowd) said, “He (Jesus) is out of his mind.”

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”

23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27 In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

30 He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”


31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived (at the Capernaum house). Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”


manfred wrote:Some people with Jesus got angry with him and called him mad. They threatened to get violent (that is what the reference to krateo means, using force)

Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. When his family (those para Jesus such Mary) heard about this (Mary heard about a crowd said Jesus is out of his mind, at Mary/Jesus house), they (Mary) went to take charge (responsibility/krateo/authority) of him, for (someone told Mary that) they (a crowd) said, “He (Jesus) is out of his mind.”

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/3-21.htm
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) And when his friends . . .—Literally, those from Him—i.e., from His home. As the “mother and the brethren” are mentioned later on in the chapter as coming to check His teaching

Geneva Study Bible
(4) None are worse enemies of the gospel than they that should be enemies of it the least.
(n) Literally, they that were of him, that is, his relatives: for they that were mad were brought to their relatives.

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:05 pm
by manfred
If anything, garudaman, you commentaries agree with what I told you, so can we finally talk about something else?
Also, I am sad you did not acknowledge "happy eid" from me... where are your manners?

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:02 pm
by Garudaman
no manfred, the commentaries are agree that the family of Jesus such Mary thought that Jesus possibly lost of his mind (not the Messenger/Son of God)
- those from Jesus home -> Mary
- None are worse enemies of the gospel than they that should be enemies of it the least -> Mary
- Literally, they that were of him, that is, his relatives: for they that were mad were brought to their relatives -> Mary


sorry manfred if i miss your happy eid, happy idul fitri for you too ;)

Re: What you don't know about the Quran

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:59 pm
by manfred
Good grief...

look at them:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(21) And when his friends . . .—Literally, those from Him—i.e., from His home. As the “mother and the brethren” are mentioned later on in the chapter as coming to check His teaching
Literally, they that were of him, that is, his relatives: for they that were mad were brought to their relatives.

those from Jesus home -> Mary

Mary was called and arrived later. It just says those of him, nothing more.
- None are worse enemies of the gospel than they that should be enemies of it the least -> Mary

Where on earth does this say realte to Mary? You can read English, can you?
- Literally, they that were of him, that is, his relatives: for they that were mad were brought to their relatives -> Mary

We don;t know who exactly thought Jesus mad... it is a loose expression: "those with him. Maybe some relatives, maybe just people who knew him. AND THEY CALLED MARY. She ARRIVED LATER, and she CAME BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT HIM MAD.

We really have done this to death now, just LOOK. The text is really very simple, and even Elliott's commentary spells it out.

Please let's talk about something else now, this is not going anywhere.