In your face contradiction

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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Centaur
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In your face contradiction

Post by Centaur »

sahih international
Quran 4:78
. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah ." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

both good and evile is from Allah
the very next verse

4:79
What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.


Yousaf Ali

78. "Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah.; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee" (O Prophet). Say: "All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

79. Whatever good, (O man!) happens to thee, is from Allah. but whatever evil happens to thee, is from thy (own) soul. and We have sent thee as an apostle to (instruct) mankind. And enough is Allah for a witness.



All good is from allah but all evil is from you.Muslims may want to play verbal gymnastics with this , but this one stands out as one of the obvious contradictions in Quran which claims it to be clear repetitively in the same book.
what was mo hammed smoking?
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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

Maybe muslimforever would like to explain this passage?

Ironically, a few verses further it says
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
The whole of that senction really in only consistent in telling people to fight for Mohammed and Allah.

Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
They will bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also of the burdens of those whom they misled without knowledge. Evil indeed is that which they shall bear!
There are also these two statements... so which is it.... is each person responsible only for himself, or is each person also responsible for the burdens of others in some cases?

If you unintentionally mislead someone, say by telling them the hospital is on the second street on the left, when it is on the third to the right, even if you thought that was correct, you are getting punished for ALL the sins of the person who you sent the wrong way?
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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

So, is evil from Allah or isn't it?
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Centaur
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by Centaur »

QS. 4:78. evil like death.
please dont lie, it says nothing like that. read up again

If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah.; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee.
its good and evil in general
QS. 4:79-80. evil which coming from disobeys His Messenger thus disobeys God, which is hell.
you are putting up your own interpretation , as if trying to be smarter than the author of Quran
when Quran says it is clear a million times. if this is the standard of interpretation nayone can interpret any book as anything they want.
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Fernando
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:any Atheist will not be able to explain, how the air coincidentally can be used by bird to evolve fly & fly more easily (QS. 16:79)!
Oh dear Garudaman, not that one again! It's no coincidence and quite explicable. The very properties of air and the structures of birds make it inevitable that they can fly.
I'm not so sure about "evolve" though: while that certainly happened, I think a lot of Muslims - or maybe Islamists - seem keen to deny evolution. Maybe a translation problem - have I seen a version that doesn't say "evolve" and ascribes flight directly to Allah?
Yes, here we go:
The University of Leeds: Qurany Tool
Noorhan Abbas & Dr. Eric Atwell

Chapter Name:An-Nahl Verse No:79

أَلَمْ يَرَوْاْ إِلَى الطَّيْرِ مُسَخَّرَاتٍ فِي جَوِّ السَّمَاء مَا يُمْسِكُهُنَّ إِلاَّ اللّهُ إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ {79

016:079 Khan
:
Do they not see the birds held (flying) in the midst of the sky? None holds them but Allah [none gave them the ability to fly but Allah]. Verily, in this are clear proofs and signs for people who believe (in the Oneness of Allah).

016:079 Maulana
:
See they not the birds, constrained in the middle of the sky? None witholds them but Allah. Surely in this are signs for a people who believe.

016:079 Pickthal
:
Have they not seen the birds obedient in mid-air? None holdeth them save Allah. Lo! herein, verily, are portents for a people who believe.

016:079 Rashad
:
Do they not see the birds committed to fly in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up in the air except GOD. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who believe.

016:079 Sarwar
:
Have you not considered the free movements of the birds high in the sky above? What keeps them aloft except God? In this there is evidence (of the truth) for the believing people.

016:079 Shakir
:
Do they not see the birds, constrained in the middle of the sky? None withholds them but Allah; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.

016:079 Sherali
:
Do they not observe the birds held under subjection in the vault of heaven? None keeps them back save ALLAH. Verily, in that are Signs for a people who believe.

016:079 Yusufali
:
Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe.
http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/16-79.html
Look's like someone's been messing with your copy of the Koran, old chap!
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Garudaman
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by Garudaman »

Centaur wrote:
QS. 4:78. evil like death.
please dont lie, it says nothing like that. read up again

If some good befalls them, they say, "This is from Allah.; but if evil, they say, "This is from thee.
its good and evil in general
QS. 4:79-80. evil which coming from disobeys His Messenger thus disobeys God, which is hell.
you are putting up your own interpretation , as if trying to be smarter than the author of Quran
when Quran says it is clear a million times. if this is the standard of interpretation nayone can interpret any book as anything they want.
QS. 4:78. Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say, "This is from Allah "; and if evil befalls them, they say, "This is from you." Say, "All [things] are from Allah." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement?

QS. 4:79-80. What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness. He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

Garudaman, you merely repeated the same passage, without any comment. Verse 78 says "ALL THINGS are from Allah". And then complains that people are stupid for not understanding that.

verse 79, straight afterwards, changes what was just said: "what comes to you of evil, is from yourself"...

only one of the two things (or none) can be correct, as they are opposites.
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pr126
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by pr126 »

manfred wrote:Garudaman, you merely repeated the same passage, without any comment. Verse 78 says "ALL THINGS are from Allah". And then complains that people are stupid for not understanding that.

verse 79, straight afterwards, changes what was just said: "what comes to you of evil, is from yourself"...

only one of the two things (or none) can be correct, as they are opposites.
In Islam, there are no contradictions, but the duality.
That is why the abrogation was invented. The only way Muslims can reconcile the contradictory passages.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

:lol: Abrogation?

Theses are verses in the SAME surah, one after the other... so verse 79 abrogates verse 78, which was presumably recited a few seconds before ? That would test the credulity of even the most devout Muslim...

I am sure we will get an explanation, correcting Allah's words for us, and then gleefully point at the verse telling us how we are too thick to understand.
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Garudaman
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Garudaman, you merely repeated the same passage, without any comment. Verse 78 says "ALL THINGS are from Allah". And then complains that people are stupid for not understanding that.

verse 79, straight afterwards, changes what was just said: "what comes to you of evil, is from yourself"...

only one of the two things (or none) can be correct, as they are opposites.
QS. 4:78 all things like death in war & win in war.

QS. 4:79-80 things like obey God (heaven) & disobey God (hell).

two things that are different/not comparable, can't be opposite each other! ;)

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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

Just as I thought, you are helping Allah expressing himself more clearly. Why does the text not say that, then?
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sum
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Your last post is illogical and you know it. You also know that the two verses are incompatible with each other but you dare not admit it and that is why you come up with nonsense by way of reply. Nonsense is all that is left for you to say because the incompatibility of the two verses with each other is blindingly obvious to anyone with critical thinking. Sadly, muslims have their critical thinking ability "circumcised" from birth onwards.

sum


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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

Garudaman, I think you would have t agree that what you say is a VERY LOOSE interpretation of the actual text. Let me perhaps ask in a different way? Do you believe that Allah predetermined all things?
No calamity befalls on the earth or in yourselves but is inscribed in the Book of Decrees , before We bring it into existence. Verily, that is easy for Allah. 57.22
An Sahih Muslims has this:
Ali narrated that one day the Messenger of Allah was sitting with a wooden stick in his hand with which he was scratching the ground. He raised his head and said, “There is none of you, but has his place assigned either in the Fire or in Paradise.” They (the Companions) inquired, “O Allah’s Messenger! Why should we carry on doing good deeds, shall we depend (upon Qadar) and give up work?” Muhammad said: “No, carry on doing good deeds, for everyone will find it easy (to do) such deeds that will lead him towards that for which he has been created.” Then he recited the verse: “As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him, and believes in al-Husna, We will make smooth for him the path of Ease (goodness)
So, does Allah created an "inclination" to do good in some people, and an inclination to do evil in others?
But you will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom. 76.30
Surah 44:4 (and several other places): "God misleads whom He wishes and whom He wants He guides."
Surah 37:94: "When God created you and what you make."
So, looking at this who is responsible for evil in Islam? Somehow your interpretation does not sit well with the other teachings of Mohammed and the Qur'an....

If fact, 4:79 is strangely at odds with the most of the other teachings on that topic.
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Garudaman
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:So, does Allah created an "inclination" to do good in some people, and an inclination to do evil in others?
God created those both inclinations in all peoples, but that verse & hadith doesn't talk about it, but about God's knowledge.
manfred wrote:So, looking at this who is responsible for evil in Islam?
God as the option creator/giver, & human as the option chooser! but QS. 4:79-80 talked about who's responsible based on who's choose the option (the option chooser)!
manfred wrote:Somehow your interpretation does not sit well with the other teachings of Mohammed and the Qur'an....
as you can see now, its sit well.

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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

Again Garudaman, you simply choose what you prefer that the text SHOULD say, as opposed to to process what it actually says. So do you believe in Qadar, or not?
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Garudaman
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:you simply choose what you prefer that the text SHOULD say, as opposed to to process what it actually says.
what those text actually said are :

1. what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself... He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian

2. No, carry on doing good deeds, for everyone will find it easy (to do) such deeds that will lead him towards that for which he has been created.” Then he recited the verse: “As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him, and believes in al-Husna, We will make smooth for him the path of Ease (goodness)


which is show that human is also responsible for evil & good.
manfred wrote:so, do you believe in Qadar, or not?
in term of God's knowledge, yes!

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manfred
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Re: In your face contradiction

Post by manfred »

what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself... He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian
and what does the verse above that one say?
. No, carry on doing good deeds, for everyone will find it easy (to do) such deeds that will lead him towards that for which he has been created.”
You really are very selective in your reading of texts. It says that everyone will those deeds easy that lead him to its pre-determined destiny. So an evil doer finds evil things easy, and a good person good things.

Allah decides where each person will end up before they are born, and you actions merely are things that indicate what the destination may be.
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