Paedophilia & child marriage in Islam

[frankie]

So you thought paedophilia and child marriage have no place in Islam, think again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LE3QARjIZg

[Garudaman]

no need rethink :

QS. 65:4. And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

no one doubt the purity of womb of the unmenstruated women, so "those who have not menstruated" = "menstruable women who late periods (more than 3 month)"!

QS. 4:21. And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant?

who are they? -> women! -> when the women can take convenant of the gone in unto each other? -> when she is old enough to be sexually attracted to a man!

QS. 4:6. And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.

its literally said that marriageable age is when they judgement in property!

[manfred]

QS. 65:4. And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

Have a good look at that verse, my friend:

So the waiting period is generally 3 menstrual periods. Fine so far? (see also 2:234/235)
For a pregnant woman, it says the waiting period is until after birth. OK as well?

There are two special cases listed here:

Older women who no longer menstruate, the iddah is 3 months.
Then WHO ARE those who have not (yet) menstruated, garudaman? This is understood to refer to any young girl not to have started menstruation, (as well as any woman who does not menstruate for medical reasons.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddah

This is seen by Muslims generally as Allah's sanction for under-age marriage. The proof is the wide spread practice in the Muslim world.

Then, we have also, in addition to the Qur'an, Mohammed's "example": He married Aisha when she was six and sex with her when she was nine. The reason why he did not have sex earlier was because Aisha got sick.

However, Mohammed's example is not consistent: On murdering all the male adult Quraiza in Medina, he proceeded to have sex with the widow of tribe's chief, the very night she was forced to watch him being beheaded.

So, like so often, Mohammed's and Allah's rules do not apply to Mohammed himself.

[frankie]

no need rethink :

QS. 65:4. And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

no one doubt the purity of womb of the unmenstruated women, so "those who have not menstruated" = "menstruable women who late periods (more than 3 month)"!

QS. 4:21. And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant?

who are they? -> women! -> when the women can take convenant of the gone in unto each other? -> when she is old enough to be sexually attracted to a man!

QS. 4:6. And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.

its literally said that marriageable age is when they judgement in property!

Garudaman:

Female children are not sexually attracted to men, but Mohammed was sexually aroused by a child of nine.

And you take this man as your role model for your religion??

By this one act alone, Mohammed proved he could not be a prophet of god, as any God worthy of the name, demands a higher moral standard for human beings, and would not eternally sanction something so harmful to children, and the rest of human society as a whole.

[Garudaman]

There are two special cases listed here:

Older women who no longer menstruate, the iddah is 3 months.

look at the sentece of "if you doubt", so its women who have recently been menopausal, surely not a woman who hasn't been menstruating for a long time!

Then WHO ARE those who have not (yet) menstruated, garudaman? This is understood to refer to any young girl not to have started menstruation, (as well as any woman who does not menstruate for medical reasons.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddah

then who will doubt a woman who can't menstruate, look again the sentece of "if you doubt", so its menstruable women who late periods (more than 3 month), it cant be any young girl who not yet start to menstruate but already in menstrual age as you said, due to they cant be already judgement in proverty at that age (look again QS. 4:6)!

This is seen by Muslims generally as Allah's sanction for under-age marriage. The proof is the wide spread practice in the Muslim world.

the prohibition of immature children to perform legal acts, including marriage, is far more widespread!

Then, we have also, in addition to the Qur'an, Mohammed's "example": He married Aisha when she was six and sex with her when she was nine. The reason why he did not have sex earlier was because Aisha got sick.

However, Mohammed's example is not consistent: On murdering all the male adult Quraiza in Medina, he proceeded to have sex with the widow of tribe's chief, the very night she was forced to watch him being beheaded.

So, like so often, Mohammed's and Allah's rules do not apply to Mohammed himself.

the hadith/example that contradict the Quran = fake hadith/example!

Female children are not sexually attracted to men, but Mohammed was sexually aroused by a child of nine.

that's why your story is fake (coz contradict to QS. 4:21), thus your case & your question is doesn't valid/exist!

[frankie]

There are two special cases listed here:

Older women who no longer menstruate, the iddah is 3 months.

look at the sentece of "if you doubt", so its women who have recently been menopausal, surely not a woman who hasn't been menstruating for a long time!

Then WHO ARE those who have not (yet) menstruated, garudaman? This is understood to refer to any young girl not to have started menstruation, (as well as any woman who does not menstruate for medical reasons.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddah

then who will doubt a woman who can't menstruate, look again the sentece of "if you doubt", so its menstruable women who late periods (more than 3 month), it cant be any young girl who not yet start to menstruate but already in menstrual age as you said, due to they cant be already judgement in proverty at that age (look again QS. 4:6)!

This is seen by Muslims generally as Allah's sanction for under-age marriage. The proof is the wide spread practice in the Muslim world.

the prohibition of immature children to perform legal acts, including marriage, is far more widespread!

Then, we have also, in addition to the Qur'an, Mohammed's "example": He married Aisha when she was six and sex with her when she was nine. The reason why he did not have sex earlier was because Aisha got sick.

However, Mohammed's example is not consistent: On murdering all the male adult Quraiza in Medina, he proceeded to have sex with the widow of tribe's chief, the very night she was forced to watch him being beheaded.

So, like so often, Mohammed's and Allah's rules do not apply to Mohammed himself.

the hadith/example that contradict the Quran = fake hadith/example!

Female children are not sexually attracted to men, but Mohammed was sexually aroused by a child of nine.

that's why your story is fake (coz contradict to QS. 4:21), thus your case & your question is doesn't valid/exist!

Garudaman:

that's why your story is fake (coz contradict to QS. 4:21), thus your case & your question is doesn't valid/exist!

This verse just justifies sex within marriage, is does not validate sex with children.

Marriage with children should not exist, because it harms children, but it does within Islam only because its role model prophet claimed "divine revelation" for it.

Quran 4.21
21. And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?

Al-Jalalayn
How shall you take it, that is, by what right, when each of you has been privily with the other, through sexual intercourse, which validates the dowry, and they have taken from you a solemn covenant, a binding pledge, and that is what God commanded, namely, that they should be retained honourably or set free virtuously.

Mohammed had sex with a child of nine, his example has given all Muslim men their authority to do the same.

No amount of denial can ever change this.

Denial of your prophet’s repugnant behaviour does not negate your own sources, which prove his sexual depravity with a child, which Islamically institutionalises paedophilia for all time.

Your god Allah has the moral standards of an alley cat, which he passes on to his “best of peoples”??

[frankie]

There are two special cases listed here:

Older women who no longer menstruate, the iddah is 3 months.

look at the sentece of "if you doubt", so its women who have recently been menopausal, surely not a woman who hasn't been menstruating for a long time!

Then WHO ARE those who have not (yet) menstruated, garudaman? This is understood to refer to any young girl not to have started menstruation, (as well as any woman who does not menstruate for medical reasons.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddah

then who will doubt a woman who can't menstruate, look again the sentece of "if you doubt", so its menstruable women who late periods (more than 3 month), it cant be any young girl who not yet start to menstruate but already in menstrual age as you said, due to they cant be already judgement in proverty at that age (look again QS. 4:6)!

This is seen by Muslims generally as Allah's sanction for under-age marriage. The proof is the wide spread practice in the Muslim world.

the prohibition of immature children to perform legal acts, including marriage, is far more widespread!

Then, we have also, in addition to the Qur'an, Mohammed's "example": He married Aisha when she was six and sex with her when she was nine. The reason why he did not have sex earlier was because Aisha got sick.

However, Mohammed's example is not consistent: On murdering all the male adult Quraiza in Medina, he proceeded to have sex with the widow of tribe's chief, the very night she was forced to watch him being beheaded.

So, like so often, Mohammed's and Allah's rules do not apply to Mohammed himself.

the hadith/example that contradict the Quran = fake hadith/example!

Female children are not sexually attracted to men, but Mohammed was sexually aroused by a child of nine.

that's why your story is fake (coz contradict to QS. 4:21), thus your case & your question is doesn't valid/exist!

Garudaman:

then who will doubt a woman who can't menstruate, look again the sentece of "if you doubt", so its menstruable women who late periods (more than 3 month), it cant be any young girl who not yet start to menstruate but already in menstrual age as you said, due to they cant be already judgement in proverty at that age (look again QS. 4:6)!

Quote: it cant be any young girl who not yet start to menstruate but already in menstrual age as you said, due to they cant be already judgement in proverty at that age

Oh yes it can.

QS. 65:4. And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

Al Jalalayan 65.4.

And [as for] those of your women who (read allā’ī or allā’i in both instances) no longer expect to menstruate, if you have any doubts, about their waiting period, their prescribed [waiting] period shall be three months, and [also for] those who have not yet menstruated, because of their young age, their period shall [also] be three months — both cases apply to other than those whose spouses have died; for these [latter] their period is prescribed in the verse: they shall wait by themselves for four months and ten [days] [Q. 2:234]. And those who are pregnant, their term, the conclusion of their prescribed [waiting] period if divorced or if their spouses be dead, shall be when they deliver. And whoever fears God, He will make matters ease for him, in this world and in the Hereafter.

Ibn Kathir 65.4.
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. see 2:228The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.

Quran 65.4 justifies Mohammed's sexual intercourse with a child of nine, as Aisha had not yet started puberty.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Mohammed's sexual deviancy has, and still does justifies sexual intercourse with children, the word given for this behaviour today is paedophilia.

[manfred]

As Frankie as already very fully replied, I will not add more. However I do have one question for Garudaman, or any Muslim in general.

If a hadith appears to be at odds with the Qur'an you say, the hadith is false. Hadith are sayings and sometime accounts of actions by Mohammed related to us by a known source, i.e. a list of named Muslims who all attest this to be true. The Qur'an does not have such a known source, it's origin has been firmly attached to myth in Islam.

If you use the Qu'an to reconstruct the actions and sayings of Mohammed, are you not making up a new Mohammed to fit your preferences, a Mohammed detached from history, a Mohammed no more real that "Hercules" or King Arthur?

[Fernando]

A very interesting point, Manfred, in view of the history accepted among Muslims of Korans burnt or eaten by goats. Either of which must have put a full stop to any isnads long before the Koran was finalised in Cairo in 1924. Or was it 1936?
http://apologika.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/is-there-truly-only-one-quran.html

[Garudaman]

This verse just justifies sex within marriage

read again :

QS. 4:21. And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant?

who are they? -> women! -> when the women can take convenant of the gone in unto each other? -> when she is old enough to be sexually attracted to a man!

1. marriage = convenant of the gone in unto each other
2. not take convenant of the gone in unto each other = no marriage
3. without old enough to be sexually attracted to a man = cant take convenant of the gone in unto each other

Oh yes it can.

then we live in different reality!

Hadith are sayings and sometime accounts of actions by Mohammed related to us by a known source, i.e. a list of named Muslims who all attest this to be true. The Qur'an does not have such a known source

the Quran have known source which is the Prophet/Messenger of God himself in first person!

[manfred]

the Quran have known source which is the Prophet/Messenger of God himself in first person!

So are you now saying that Mohammed wrote the Qur'an? In that you are partly right.... Mohammed used various existing sources and "recited them" as his "revelations". Some of these recitations were written down and later, after his death, edited and goven the order they have today.

Most recent evidence proves that at least some of the Qur'an may even pre-date Mohammed, suggesting that either Mohammed plagiarized these texts and claimed them to be "revelation" to him, or later editors mistakenly assumed these texts were Mohammed's words and included them into the Qur'an in error.

The Qur'an has a chequered history and is in some way an even less reliable guide to what Mohammed taught than the hadith.

[Garudaman]

you mean its impossibility a people wrote in old paper using old ink? and its cant be happen the earlier manuscript is the error copy but the later manuscript is the correct copy?

& the Quran is more reliable guide than hadith, since without contradiction sources surely more reliable than contradiction sources!

[frankie]

This verse just justifies sex within marriage

read again :

QS. 4:21. And how could you take it while you have gone in unto each other and they have taken from you a solemn covenant?

who are they? -> women! -> when the women can take convenant of the gone in unto each other? -> when she is old enough to be sexually attracted to a man!

1. marriage = convenant of the gone in unto each other
2. not take convenant of the gone in unto each other = no marriage
3. without old enough to be sexually attracted to a man = cant take convenant of the gone in unto each other

Oh yes it can.

then we live in different reality!

Hadith are sayings and sometime accounts of actions by Mohammed related to us by a known source, i.e. a list of named Muslims who all attest this to be true. The Qur'an does not have such a known source

the Quran have known source which is the Prophet/Messenger of God himself in first person!

Garudaman:

However you want to play your game, your prophet was sexually aroused by a child, which is abnormal, men are not designed to have sex with children, it is against the natural order, and female children are not sexually attracted to men, they are more interested in playing with dolls.

The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty

Your prophet's sexual deviancy has given the "green light "for all Muslim men to have sex with female children, even if they have not reached puberty.as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty

This proves Allah 's standard of morality was severely lacking, he advocated and condoned something which is both harmful and degenerate for both females and males, as a Muslim you should be thoroughly ashamed of this man you revere as a prophet, no previous prophet ever gave humanity this kind of example to follow for their benefit and guidance.

Therefore,Allah cannot be God.

[Garudaman]

how can there's any little girl if/when its fake news?

[frankie]

how can there's any little girl if/when its fake news?

Garudaman

I am more than willing to accept your teachings as "fake news" G,but the question is, are you??

[Garudaman]

what teaching? fake Islamic teaching isnt Islamic teaching!

[frankie]

what teaching? fake Islamic teaching isnt Islamic teaching!

Garudaman:

Telling your Imam that prophet Mohammed's actions of being sexually aroused by a child is fake news, would not go down very well I suspect, but to coin a well known phrase, "Allah knows best"

[piscohot]

the fact that even islamic countries, not all though, have laws that prohibits marriage of girls either below 16 or 18, demonstrates the fact that the so called law allowing child marriages is not palatable to most humans.
Muhammad could have saved millions of little islamic girls from a miserable existence simply by not marrying Aisha.
'Allah' could have save all the little girls, past, present and future ones, from the same miserable existence by stopping the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha.

[Fernando]

you mean its impossibility a people wrote in old paper using old ink? and its cant be happen the earlier manuscript is the error copy but the later manuscript is the correct copy?

Well, since the Koran was finalised in Cairo in the 20th century and is now accepted as the correct copy, there must have been a lot or incorrect earlier copies about before that.
Old "paper" is a valid argument, but probably wrong. It's generally argued that as parchment was such an expensive commodity in the early days of the Koran, it's very unlikely that there were stocks of old parchment available for early copies to have been written on. After all, remember, notes of Mo's "revelations" were first written, if at all, on stones, bones and leaves and such.