32:13

[Makeen]

Every soul was given free will. The ones that chose to use it to cause mischief narrowed their own lives down. A man who narrows his life down is an example to those who want to prevent a similar fate. The wise learned from consequence whilst those that indulged in deceiving enjoyment or beautified evil caused their own destruction. Every soul could have received its guidance, but did every soul accept it?

See if you can follow me closely and grasp this. If you were God and you were all knowing, and you were about to create someone when you suddenly realized for sure that if you create this person, this person will surely end up in hell for sure. Now, you have a choice. You can create this person, knowing that they will end up in hell, and remember, you're God, so there's no chance of you being wrong about that. Or, you can choose not to create this person and thereby sparing them of what you know will happen to them. So which would you do? Think carefully about that analogy.

Only God is God, I cannot speak even hypothetically of being in his status. I do understand what you are trying to ask though.

In a state of existence in which we had no body, we all testified that we believe. Here then we are sent to earth, with free will, in which each use of the faculties provided to us are in record. Gods promise is true, hell will be filled with jinns and men so indeed men and jinns share the earth. What will happen to them in this life and the one to follow is known to he that created. We are in a stream of time, we make choices and we either decided to be a success or a failure. God does not break promise, to do so would be a human flaw, a weakness in jinns and men. We can question and doubt the swift plan of god until our vision is worn out, but the time wasted will be of no avail when that time has passed.

Allah will select his own selection to be forgiven after all those who had even an atoms weight of Iman in them.

[Makeen]

There is no permission given to that which is not permitted. Allah allows the will of the free to occur as our hearts are tested this way.

Who is testing our hearts?

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah, the one closer than your jugular vein, yet only few have the vision. Soften your heart, I offer to soften mine first and let no hatred come between us.

[yeezevee]

Makeen

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah, the one closer than your jugular vein, yet only few have the vision. Soften your heart, I offer to soften mine first and let no hatred come between us.

Glad to read you dear Makeen., welcome to ffi . jugular vein, ... interesting word., So Allah is close to heart .. He/she/it is closer than that jugular vein.,.. good.

I wonder whether that jugular vein is external jugular vein or internal jugular vein?? Any ways.. Allah, Soul..Life.. Blood.. Oxygen ..jugular vein.. And Brain.. I am not sure which is more important to life..

Yes soften words indeed are very helpful in the discussion..

with best regards
yeezevee

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Every soul was given free will. The ones that chose to use it to cause mischief narrowed their own lives down. A man who narrows his life down is an example to those who want to prevent a similar fate. The wise learned from consequence whilst those that indulged in deceiving enjoyment or beautified evil caused their own destruction. Every soul could have received its guidance, but did every soul accept it?

See if you can follow me closely and grasp this. If you were God and you were all knowing, and you were about to create someone when you suddenly realized for sure that if you create this person, this person will surely end up in hell for sure. Now, you have a choice. You can create this person, knowing that they will end up in hell, and remember, you're God, so there's no chance of you being wrong about that. Or, you can choose not to create this person and thereby sparing them of what you know will happen to them. So which would you do? Think carefully about that analogy.

Only God is God, I cannot speak even hypothetically of being in his status.

But you can speaking hypothetically about knowing something bad is going to happen if you create something, but creating that thing anyway. I didn't ask you to be God, i asked you if you would create something that you knew you would torture? Somehow, I don't think you're going to give me a direct answer to this, are you. Hmmm......how did I know? Call it experience.

I do understand what you are trying to ask though.
In a state of existence in which we had no body, we all testified that we believe.

Before we were even created? If so, are you suggesting we are eternal and therefore uncreated? Did we always exist? I assume the answer to those question is a resounding "no". So my point is about God knowing what you will even testify before he even creates you, so were right back to square one and you haven't offered anything. So a relabeling of the same point.

Here then we are sent to earth, with free will,

Because God decided to create us, even the ones he knew he would throw into hell before he even created them

in which each use of the faculties provided to us are in record. Gods promise is true, hell will be filled with jinns and men so indeed men and jinns share the earth. What will happen to them in this life and the one to follow is known to he that created.

So if he goes ahead and creates the person anyway, knowing full well the person will go to hell, then it could be said that God created that person with the purpose of torturing them in hell. However, if God opted not to create that person, then God could be said to be merciful.

We are in a stream of time, we make choices and we either decided to be a success or a failure. God does not break promise, to do so would be a human flaw, a weakness in jinns and men.

The question is not only God or no God, but also which God? Muslims always assume that to disbelieve in Allah and Muhammad is the same as being an atheist. How rude. what an arbitrary assumption, and an arrogant one at that.

We can question and doubt the swift plan of god until our vision is worn out, but the time wasted will be of no avail when that time has passed.]/quote]

Who says? And why should I believe them? I guess I better believe merely for the reason that it says I better believe.

Allah will select his own selection to be forgiven after all those who had even an atoms weight of Iman in them.

This is you trailing off without answering the logical problem. Seems to me, that this is your way of saying "gee, that was a really deep question and I never really thought about it and I'm going to have to think about it because it's difficult to come up with an answer that truly works"

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah

So if he knows everything already, why bother to test us? What's he going to find out that he didn't already know? I hope you realize that the sole purpose to ANY test, no matter what it might be, is to hopefully get an answer to something that you don't know for sure. Therefore, you test in hopes of knowing for sure. I don't think you realized this before you answered because if you did, you wouldn't have answered that it is Allah that tests us because anybody who tests does so because there is something they want to find out that they don't know for sure. But, at least, according to the Quran, your answer was accurate and you are more honest than you fellow Muslim bros who try to make it seem like it's really just us testing ourselves, when they know the Quran says nothing of the sort.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Makeen

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah, the one closer than your jugular vein, yet only few have the vision. Soften your heart, I offer to soften mine first and let no hatred come between us.

Glad to read you dear Makeen., welcome to ffi . jugular vein, ... interesting word., So Allah is close to heart .. He/she/it is closer than that jugular vein.,.. good.

If Allah is already closer than your jugular vein, then I wonder why he bothers to have two angels sitting on your shoulders that will deliver their recordings of your deeds back to Allah?

[Makeen]

But you can speaking hypothetically about knowing something bad is going to happen if you create something, but creating that thing anyway. I didn't ask you to be God, i asked you if you would create something that you knew you would torture? Somehow, I don't think you're going to give me a direct answer to this, are you. Hmmm......how did I know? Call it experience.

I always speak directly, I see no benefit in an evasive response. I think what you are trying to ask is why would god create souls only for them to end up being forever tortured. But the question is was the fate of those souls brought upon themselves? It is easy to blame God but he gives choices. Thus one should be aware that God does not break promise, however he does forgive. The ideology that God created some only to be tortured is wrong. God is complete balance, just, fair, and far above what others associate to him. God says in the Quran that Man raises his own problems, yet few realize. Man is selfish and earns his own punishment according to his bad deeds, and earns reward according to his good. This is somewhat relevant to how we are tested through hardship so that when we are delivered from it, we gain purification and give thanks and perhaps expiate previous sins. God is "ageeb" (we use that word which basically means different, extraordinary and somewhat strange) and far above what you doubt of him. How can I give you a 100% complete direct answer when that which you want directly can only be attained from the Almighty directly himself and from his mind? Obviously there is knowledge kept and known only to Allah himself, such as the date of the hour. What exactly is your belief anyway, you don't believe God exists? Tell me more about yourself. Look at the Global economy, man does not learn his lessons and thus it does not prosper and it collapses over and over again. All plots of evil are based on flimsy foundations, and the consequence happens from the choices and decisions that were made. And similarly our final abode is the result of the choices we made. Free will was given to us so we may choose our destiny. If you say that God made some souls only to be punished then those souls would of not been given free will, every soul in hell is there as a result from the decisions they made in earth. No soul is placed in hell without reason.

Before we were even created? If so, are you suggesting we are eternal and therefore uncreated? Did we always exist? I assume the answer to those question is a resounding "no". So my point is about God knowing what you will even testify before he even creates you, so were right back to square one and you haven't offered anything. So a relabeling of the same point.

Let me relate to you the following verses, please also have special attention to the first part as it shows that we testified. This will perhaps give you more understanding as to how earth is only one station in the journey towards our destination, and how earth is just an element in the stream of time.

Sura 7: A'raf (Yusuf Ali)

172. When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":

173. Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"

174. Thus do We explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn (unto Us).

175. Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.

176. If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (st ill) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

177.Evil as an example are people who reject Our signs and wrong their own souls.

178. Whom God doth guide,- he is on the right path: whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.

Because God decided to create us, even the ones he knew he would throw into hell before he even created them

179. Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

So if he goes ahead and creates the person anyway, knowing full well the person will go to hell, then it could be said that God created that person with the purpose of torturing them in hell. However, if God opted not to create that person, then God could be said to be merciful.

Was the purpose for them to be tortured in hell? or was the purpose to show that he is just, in giving that which he gave free will, that which they have earned. And how would it be fair to the righteous heart, for the rebellious and selfish heart to be pardoned from test? Is not each day that the rebellious and selfish awaken into their free will, another daily mercy for them? Would there be justice if the righteous made effort in acceptance of truth only to find their effort void? No? Then understand why when the rebellious made effort in rejection and flight from the truth, they found their effort to be void instead. Well aware god is, of all the secrets of the hearts. What is unknown to others and kept secretly hidden within us does not become so without his awareness. Indeed god is merciful, and indeed god sends mercy however only few accept it. You asked me "who tests our hearts?", and you added no hatred, you asked with sincerity and you were eager and thus I responded to you with guidance. Even a man who was blind received guidance because he was eager to receive it, and he was more Interested than those who had sight. He was to be given priority and ALLAH questioned Muhammad (PBUH) as to why he did not give priority to the blind man who was eager. Allow me to show the relevant verse in the quran:


80:1 - (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
80:2 - Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
80:3 - But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
80:4 - Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
80:5 - As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
80:6 - To him dost thou attend;
80:7 - Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
80:8 - But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
80:9 - And with fear (in his heart),
80:10 - Of him wast thou unmindful.
80:11 - By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:
80:12 - Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
80:13 - (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
80:14 - Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
80:15 - (Written) by the hands of scribes-
80:16 - Honourable and Pious and Just.
80:17 - Woe to man! What hath made him reject Allah;
-------------------

Dear brother, before God admitted the rejected into hell, he gave them choice. Ameen.

The question is not only God or no God, but also which God? Muslims always assume that to disbelieve in Allah and Muhammad is the same as being an atheist. How rude. what an arbitrary assumption, and an arrogant one at that.

I can tell you that Atheists are those who have made their choice not to believe in God, but they are not those who have not made the choice to stop seeking guidance and closure.

[Makeen]

Makeen

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah, the one closer than your jugular vein, yet only few have the vision. Soften your heart, I offer to soften mine first and let no hatred come between us.

Glad to read you dear Makeen., welcome to ffi . jugular vein, ... interesting word., So Allah is close to heart .. He/she/it is closer than that jugular vein.,.. good.

I wonder whether that jugular vein is external jugular vein or internal jugular vein?? Any ways.. Allah, Soul..Life.. Blood.. Oxygen ..jugular vein.. And Brain.. I am not sure which is more important to life..

Yes soften words indeed are very helpful in the discussion..

with best regards
yeezevee

A Most warm welcome to you too, forgive me for not responding sooner.

Your wonder is without doubt followed by an Interesting question and I hope to discuss this with you soon.

Until and if we speak again,

Kind Regards,
Makeen.

[Brendalee]

Hello Makeen.

Your arguments do not come up to the scratch line, as they do not even begin to rebut the arguments already made against them.

Is your Allah an ignorant creator, or does he know what he creates? Islam says that Allah is ALL aware, ALL knowing.
Islam says that Allah knows every moment: pre-birth, during life, to death, beyond death EVEN before he creates us. Surely you cannot imply, as a Muslim, that Allah is a FAULTY creator? Even the Quran says that Allah CREATES unbelief and that, had he chosen to create so, all would be believers.

Allah CANNOT be all knowing and STILL give free will. Free will would mean we could chose something for ourselves that Allah did not already know, even before he ever created us to BE what he deliberately created us to BE.

If Allah is ALL knowing, how can we change even one fraction of a second of a life that he already KNEW before he created it? If we could choose that which Allah does not already KNOW that we would choose, then Allah would NOT be all-knowing. But Allah's words in the Quran claim that he is ALL knowing.

Please explain how Allah can be ALL knowing while at the same time claiming that we have any free will. The illusion of free will is merely a TRICK, a DELUSION imposed upon us, if Allah is all knowing. This is a contradiction to claim that Allah knows all, but we have free will.

And it is a further contradiction to say that EVERYTHING is the will of Allah and nothing can happen unless it is Allah's will. How do I have FREE will when my supposed FREE will is actually just Allah's will? If I cannot will that which is against Allah's will, then it is not FREE will at all. It is merely Allah's will.

And please, Makeen, if you hide behind the excuse of "I don't know. I am not Allah. Allah knows best", then you are merely refusing to put any critical thinking into the problem.

[Makeen]

Hello Makeen.

Your arguments do not come up to the scratch line, as they do not even begin to rebut the arguments already made against them.

Is your Allah an ignorant creator, or does he know what he creates? Islam says that Allah is ALL aware, ALL knowing.
Islam says that Allah knows every moment: pre-birth, during life, to death, beyond death EVEN before he creates us. Surely you cannot imply, as a Muslim, that Allah is a FAULTY creator? Even the Quran says that Allah CREATES unbelief and that, had he chosen to create so, all would be believers.

Allah CANNOT be all knowing and STILL give free will. Free will would mean we could chose something for ourselves that Allah did not already know, even before he ever created us to BE what he deliberately created us to BE.

If Allah is ALL knowing, how can we change even one fraction of a second of a life that he already KNEW before he created it? If we could choose that which Allah does not already KNOW that we would choose, then Allah would NOT be all-knowing. But Allah's words in the Quran claim that he is ALL knowing.

Please explain how Allah can be ALL knowing while at the same time claiming that we have any free will. The illusion of free will is merely a TRICK, a DELUSION imposed upon us, if Allah is all knowing. This is a contradiction to claim that Allah knows all, but we have free will.

And it is a further contradiction to say that EVERYTHING is the will of Allah and nothing can happen unless it is Allah's will. How do I have FREE will when my supposed FREE will is actually just Allah's will? If I cannot will that which is against Allah's will, then it is not FREE will at all. It is merely Allah's will.

And please, Makeen, if you hide behind the excuse of "I don't know. I am not Allah. Allah knows best", then you are merely refusing to put any critical thinking into the problem.

Hello Brendalee,

To some extent I refuse to invite to warmth, that which came to me burning. Soften your heart and then return, perhaps then the message you wish to convey to me is clarified and with much less distortion.

And if your heart desires to respond to me claiming I am being evasive, and your desire is put public, then be of those who wander blindly in arrogance.

Until then, and if then occurs,
Take care.

[charleslemartel]

Hello Makeen.

Your arguments do not come up to the scratch line, as they do not even begin to rebut the arguments already made against them.

Is your Allah an ignorant creator, or does he know what he creates? Islam says that Allah is ALL aware, ALL knowing.
Islam says that Allah knows every moment: pre-birth, during life, to death, beyond death EVEN before he creates us. Surely you cannot imply, as a Muslim, that Allah is a FAULTY creator? Even the Quran says that Allah CREATES unbelief and that, had he chosen to create so, all would be believers.

Allah CANNOT be all knowing and STILL give free will. Free will would mean we could chose something for ourselves that Allah did not already know, even before he ever created us to BE what he deliberately created us to BE.

If Allah is ALL knowing, how can we change even one fraction of a second of a life that he already KNEW before he created it? If we could choose that which Allah does not already KNOW that we would choose, then Allah would NOT be all-knowing. But Allah's words in the Quran claim that he is ALL knowing.

Please explain how Allah can be ALL knowing while at the same time claiming that we have any free will. The illusion of free will is merely a TRICK, a DELUSION imposed upon us, if Allah is all knowing. This is a contradiction to claim that Allah knows all, but we have free will.

And it is a further contradiction to say that EVERYTHING is the will of Allah and nothing can happen unless it is Allah's will. How do I have FREE will when my supposed FREE will is actually just Allah's will? If I cannot will that which is against Allah's will, then it is not FREE will at all. It is merely Allah's will.

And please, Makeen, if you hide behind the excuse of "I don't know. I am not Allah. Allah knows best", then you are merely refusing to put any critical thinking into the problem.

Hello Brendalee,

To some extent I refuse to invite to warmth, that which came to me burning. Soften your heart and then return, perhaps then the message you wish to convey to me is clarified and with much less distortion.

And if your heart desires to respond to me claiming I am being evasive, and your desire is put public, then be of those who wander blindly in arrogance.

Until then, and if then occurs,
Take care.

Hello Makeen,

Why not try to refute Brendalee's perfectly valid points? If you think her message has distortions, why not point them out? This is how discussions proceed, don't they?

I find it funny how people avoid discussing the problematic points.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

But you can speaking hypothetically about knowing something bad is going to happen if you create something, but creating that thing anyway. I didn't ask you to be God, i asked you if you would create something that you knew you would torture? Somehow, I don't think you're going to give me a direct answer to this, are you. Hmmm......how did I know? Call it experience.

I always speak directly, I see no benefit in an evasive response. I think what you are trying to ask is why would god create souls only for them to end up being forever tortured. But the question is

The question is the exact question that I asked. By changing the question, you are already being evasive.

was the fate of those souls brought upon themselves?

And that is not the question. We already know the obvious answer that one is responsible for their actions, We are talking about God's responsibility as the enabler for these actions. So the evasion has certainly already begun by the attempt at changing the question.

It is easy to blame God but he gives choices.

And he has choices as well, correct? And he chose to create someone KNOWING they will end up in hell, but he chose to create them anyway. Remember, he could have chosen not to create said person since he knew he would end up torturing this person.

Thus one should be aware that God does not break promise, however he does forgive. The ideology that God created some only to be tortured is wrong. God is complete balance, just, fair, and far above what others associate to him.

OK, either you are just being stubborn, or this discussion is way over your head. It amazes me to see that Muslims have such a difficult time digesting a simple, self evident logical truth such as this.

Before we were even created? If so, are you suggesting we are eternal and therefore uncreated? Did we always exist? I assume the answer to those question is a resounding "no". So my point is about God knowing what you will even testify before he even creates you, so were right back to square one and you haven't offered anything. So a relabeling of the same point.

Let me relate to you the following verses, please also have special attention to the first part as it shows that we testified. This will perhaps give you more understanding as to how earth is only one station in the journey towards our destination, and how earth is just an element in the stream of time.

Sura 7: A'raf (Yusuf Ali)

172. When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":

173. Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"

174. Thus do We explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn (unto Us).

175. Relate to them the story of the man to whom We sent Our signs, but he passed them by: so Satan followed him up, and he went astray.

176. If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (st ill) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.

177.Evil as an example are people who reject Our signs and wrong their own souls.

178. Whom God doth guide,- he is on the right path: whom He rejects from His guidance,- such are the persons who perish.

Wow, you honestly don't even understand the simple point I'm making. If you did, you would see how unrelated this is. Perhaps you're simply unreachable. I don't know.

Because God decided to create us, even the ones he knew he would throw into hell before he even created them

179. Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell: They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided: for they are heedless (of warning).

Yes, you certainly don't get it. I wonder what the block is?

So if he goes ahead and creates the person anyway, knowing full well the person will go to hell, then it could be said that God created that person with the purpose of torturing them in hell. However, if God opted not to create that person, then God could be said to be merciful.

Was the purpose for them to be tortured in hell?

You're attempting to change the question rather than answer it. More evasiveness.

or was the purpose to show that he is just, in giving that which he gave free will, that which they have earned.

Is it just to create something in order for it to fail? Remember, God didn't think the person was going to fail before he created them, he knew the person was going to fail. That's a HUGE difference. Can you understand that? You seem to approaching this from the angle that God thinks someone will end up in hell, rather than knowing this. That would be flawed according to Islam.

And how would it be fair to the righteous heart, for the rebellious and selfish heart to be pardoned from test?

Why not prevent the problem that you know for sure will happen by not creating them at all? What is so hard for you to grasp?

Is not each day that the rebellious and selfish awaken into their free will, another daily mercy for them? Would there be justice if the righteous made effort in acceptance of truth only to find their effort void? No?

All of your "supposed" self sacrifice or good works are merely done because you believe it to ultimately be in your own self interest. Therefore, you sacrifice nothing, but nobody has told you about this illusion yet because you're trapped by Islam. you're whole idea of justice is actually a self serving concept. It makes you feel good that everything is going to be fair and balanced (according to your idea of what's fair)

Then understand why when the rebellious made effort in rejection and flight from the truth, they found their effort to be void instead. Well aware god is, of all the secrets of the hearts. What is unknown to others and kept secretly hidden within us does not become so without his awareness. Indeed god is merciful, and indeed god sends mercy however only few accept it. You asked me "who tests our hearts?", and you added no hatred, you asked with sincerity and you were eager and thus I responded to you with guidance.

And did you see my answer to that? You're answer was logically flawed, but you can't even recognize the flaws yet. That's a shame. That was terrible guidance, but you're not aware of that yet.

Even a man who was blind received guidance because he was eager to receive it, and he was more Interested than those who had sight. He was to be given priority and ALLAH questioned Muhammad (PBUH) as to why he did not give priority to the blind man who was eager. Allow me to show the relevant verse in the quran:


80:1 - (The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
80:2 - Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
80:3 - But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
80:4 - Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
80:5 - As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
80:6 - To him dost thou attend;
80:7 - Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
80:8 - But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
80:9 - And with fear (in his heart),
80:10 - Of him wast thou unmindful.
80:11 - By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:
80:12 - Therefore let whoso will, keep it in remembrance.
80:13 - (It is) in Books held (greatly) in honour,
80:14 - Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy,
80:15 - (Written) by the hands of scribes-
80:16 - Honourable and Pious and Just.
80:17 - Woe to man! What hath made him reject Allah;
-------------------

Dear brother, before God admitted the rejected into hell, he gave them choice. Ameen.

And God made a choice too, right? He chose to create them even though he knew for sure he would torture them in hell. So your entire post did absolutely nothing to answer the problem. It was one giant sidestep, either done purposefully, or unknowingly, and I'm not sure which would be worse.

The question is not only God or no God, but also which God? Muslims always assume that to disbelieve in Allah and Muhammad is the same as being an atheist. How rude. what an arbitrary assumption, and an arrogant one at that.

I can tell you that Atheists are those who have made their choice not to believe in God, but they are not those who have not made the choice to stop seeking guidance and closure.

Ahhh, closure. So THAT'S your psychological need. And with needs such as this, it is impossible to be a rational, balanced and objective thinker.

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

And if your heart desires to respond to me claiming I am being evasive, and your desire is put public, then be of those who wander blindly in arrogance.

And you can't even see that you just made an arrogant claim. So who wanders blindly in arrogance?

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Makeen

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah, the one closer than your jugular vein, yet only few have the vision. Soften your heart, I offer to soften mine first and let no hatred come between us.

Glad to read you dear Makeen., welcome to ffi . jugular vein, ... interesting word., So Allah is close to heart .. He/she/it is closer than that jugular vein.,.. good.

If Allah is already closer than your jugular vein, then I wonder why he bothers to have two angels sitting on your shoulders that will deliver their recordings of your deeds back to Allah?

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

Allah, the one and only God is testing our hearts. Allah

So if he knows everything already, why bother to test us? What's he going to find out that he didn't already know? I hope you realize that the sole purpose to ANY test, no matter what it might be, is to hopefully get an answer to something that you don't know for sure. Therefore, you test in hopes of knowing for sure. I don't think you realized this before you answered because if you did, you wouldn't have answered that it is Allah that tests us because anybody who tests does so because there is something they want to find out that they don't know for sure. But, at least, according to the Quran, your answer was accurate and you are more honest than you fellow Muslim bros who try to make it seem like it's really just us testing ourselves, when they know the Quran says nothing of the sort.

[Makeen]

I softened my heart and approached you with warmth and love. Yet inside you clench onto hatred. You let hatred come between us. Go then, be of those who hate, but on the day that the mountain of hatred crumbles, be of those who bend their heads low in embarrassment.

[yeezevee]

Makeen writes his/her heart out

I softened my heart and approached you with warmth and love. Yet inside you clench onto hatred. You let hatred come between us. Go then, be of those who hate, but on the day that the mountain of hatred crumbles, be of those who bend their heads low in embarrassment.

that should be in Q'uran., So where did you get that dear Makeen

And what do we do with the people that clench onto hatred??.. any solution??.

More hate?? More warmth? more love??

with best regards
yeezevee

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

I softened my heart and approached you with warmth and love. Yet inside you clench onto hatred. You let hatred come between us. Go then, be of those who hate, but on the day that the mountain of hatred crumbles, be of those who bend their heads low in embarrassment.

Pointing out clear logical flaws is hatred? How do you figure that? How do you invent this for yourself? I hope you read all of my posts above, especially the longer one.

[Brendalee]

Makeen, your reply to me is not acceptable as an answer. It is YOU who decided that we must accept your illogic. If we question you and give reasons - logical reasons - why we do not accept the illogic of the Muslim acceptance of the Quran and it's Allah, then it is YOU who defines this as "clenched hatred".

You are lying to yourself and using whatever frivolous excuse comes into your head as an excuse not to answer the challenges you have been confronted with.

You have joined a forum of debate and discussion. Now you refuse to participate because you do not want to think of how illogical your beliefs are. You do not wish to see the inherent contradictions in the way Islam defines Allah.

Do you really believe that GOD would define himself in such illogical terms? You base your beliefs on fantastic claims from a man you never even met.

Mohammad claims he was visited by an angel, Mohammad claims that this angel gave him revelations from a being claiming to be GOD, called Allah. Mohammad claims the Quran is the direct word of this being called Allah.

You accept these unfounded claims which fly in the face of BASIC logic, and when this illogic is pointed out to you, you accuse others of being haters in order to evade answering any challenges.

For what reason do you come to a debate/discussion site that points out the evil of Islamic dogma and seeks to destroy it? Did you think you could come here and just soft-peddle da'wah?

Did you not understand that if you joined a debate/discussion site people with opposing views would expect you to actually debate and discuss?

[Muhammad bin Lyin]

I don't think this guy is going to hear a single word that anybody says. It's simply too emotional of an issue for him to approach it with clarity and objectivity.