Three of many errors in the Quran

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Oh dear...

just google " arabic word for a god" and you get ilah. Allah is the "title" used in Islam for a SPECIFIC deity, which is not the same as the Jewish and Christian one.

The wiki link is not a TRANSLATION of the shahadda, it is the writers interpretation.

Have a look at the verse you quoted which uses the word ilah:


Please look it up here:

http://www.openburhan.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

it is a MUSLIM site showing many translations together as well as the Arabic.

All say more or less this:
Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire?
You left the word untranslated, as if it was a difficult word, it is a very simple word.

And then you quote the Qur'an to suggest what I told you is inaccurate? We all know what Muslims say about pagans Jews and Christians, that is not the question.

Can you point to and ORIGINAL Christian or Jewish text that even mentions "Allah"?

No, you can't because there is none. So how can you then suggest that Christians say "Christ is Allah"? Christians do not say that. Ask any Christian what they believe in, and Allah does not feature in the answer at all. Even if "Allah" is mentioned, because of much later language conventions in some countries, it is nothing like the Allah of Mohammed. Do Jews say "Allah's hands are chained"? I never heard any of them suggest any such thing.

In fact, you find neither Jews nor Christians as a rule spend a lot of time discussing other religions. It is only Islam which has a big focus on other people. Insecurity, perhaps?

What are these verses for, garudaman? Who are they talking to? The answer is they are for MUSLIMS. They are trying to explain to them, why, from Mohammed's point of view, other religions are false. They do this with very poor understanding what other religions are really all about.

In some ways the argument against Christians says rather a lot about Islam. Allah can destroy Jesus. Therefore he is more important and more powerful. Is importance measured in how easily you can kill people? That is the argument of the mafia don.

Mohammed really had no understanding about Christianity at all and his knowledge of Judaism was little better.
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Oh dear...

just google " arabic word for a god" and you get ilah. Allah is the "title" used in Islam for a SPECIFIC deity, which is not the same as the Jewish and Christian one.
then the Quran already disproved it.
manfred wrote:http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 5&verse=23

Then seest thou such a one takes god his own vain desire?
no one thinks desire as God, so the correct translation is not God, but followed object.
manfred wrote:You left the word untranslated, as if it was a difficult word, it is a very simple word.
no, I'm don't translated it so you know how ilah used in the sentence.
manfred wrote:And then you quote the Qur'an to suggest what I told you is inaccurate? We all know what Muslims say about pagans Jews and Christians, that is not the question.
the point is Al-Quran told us that Allah is Arabic term of God, not the name of God.
manfred wrote:Can you point to and ORIGINAL Christian or Jewish text that even mentions "Allah"?
that's wrong question, since the original text of Jewish & Christian is Hebrew & Greek, not Arabic, but we have references that Pagan Jewish Christian of Arab, using Allah for God :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The word Allah has been used by Arabic people of different religions since pre-Islamic times.[8] More specifically, it has been used as a term to refer to God by Muslims (both Arab and non-Arab) and Arab Christians. It is now mainly used by Muslims and Arab Christians to refer to God.[9]

Regional variants of the word Allah occur in both pagan and Christian pre-Islamic inscriptions.[8][21]

Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[10] The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for "God" than "Allah".[29]
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-allah-p ... origin.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Allah is not a name, but a descriptor that means literally, "the God".

In comparison to the perfect monotheism of Judaism and Christianity, "Allah" was originally no more a proper name for the Muslim God, than the word Hebrew "elohim" (god) or Greek "theos" (god) are proper names of the one true God of the Bible.

Islam has no proper name for their God, but merely transformed, by universal use and confusion, the generic Allah into a proper name.
http://www.equip.org/article/allah-does ... -to-islam/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many Westerners seem unaware that Allah is the God Arabic-speaking Christians worship. The Arabic Bible is replete with the word Allah, beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. Jesus Christ is even called the son of Allah in the Arabic Scriptures.

Arabic-speaking Coptic, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Maronite, evangelical, and Reformed Christians worship Allah, which is simply the word or term for God in another language. Islam does not hold a copyright to the term. In fact, Arab Christians existed before Islam appeared on the scene. Christians who worship Allah number in the millions, and their biblical version of Allah differs from the Qur’anic version. To demean or demonize the word for God in another language does a great disservice to believers who speak that language. Opportunities to win a hearing or dialogue between Christians and Arabic-speaking Muslims vis-à-vis Jesus Christ are also minimized.

It is time for all of us, especially Christians, to exercise caution when it comes to attacking the term for God in a language foreign to most of us. No other term exists in Arabic for the God Christians claim to be the one, true God. Western Christians do not normally use Hebrew terms for God in their languages. They cannot expect Arab Christians to use any other term or word for theirs. Allah is equivalent to the English God, the French Dieu, or the Spanish Dios.

manfred wrote:What are these verses for, garudaman? Who are they talking to? The answer is they are for MUSLIMS. They are trying to explain to them
they don't try to convert people of other faith to Islam?

QS. 5:17. ...Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?"...

QS. 5:60. Say, "Shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that as penalty from Allah? [It is that of] those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of Taghut. Those are worse in position and further astray from the sound way."

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Centaur
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Centaur »

Allah is not a name, but a descriptor that means literally, "the God".

In comparison to the perfect monotheism of Judaism and Christianity, "Allah" was originally no more a proper name for the Muslim God, than the word Hebrew "elohim" (god) or Greek "theos" (god) are proper names of the one true God of the Bible.
true, Allah = the God or Al + ilah, but which one is it lies the problem.For example bible says god/ilah of this world is Satan.
aren't some european isis jihadis known as Al Britani and so on?
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:air that can be used for fly & blew ship first and then the evolution of bird & the making of sail by human, it's the same as, horse that can be used for pull the cart first and then the making of cart by human.
My apoligies, Garudaman: you're clearly not anti-evolution. You may, though, be putting an interesting slant on the Intelligent Design theory: the Designer designed an inanimate world suitable for evolution to finish the job. Probably "theistic evolution".
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:Have a look at the words of the shahadda (syahada?) in Arabic:

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
that's not correct, the correct is, there's no that should be followed except God, & Muhammad is the Messenger of God.
Ah, thank you Garudaman for confirming what I thought all along: Arabian monotheism isn't about the existence of one only god, it's about the worship of only one god - one who exists along with other subservient or competing gods who must not be worshipped..
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Garudaman, I don't know what I can tell you. It is simply a fact that "ilah" means "god". Neither you nor I can change a fact. It is what it is. The shahadda even confirms that, in saying that Allah is the only "ilah".
Please look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Malay language version is much shorter:
https://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Allah" is a conflation of the article "Al" = "the" and ilah. Al + ilah = Allah. It means "THE" god, a specific one. It is a title, similar if I say "garudaman is THE MAN" which means he is the big boss. But "Allah" was really from the start more than simply "THE god", it became s kind of title, a term for the main deity, and under Mohammed the only deity.

If the Qur'an said Ilah does not mean "god" then we would have to conclude that the author of the Qur'an did not know Arabic.... In fact it would be difficult to imagine who any Arab could then be a Muslim.

It is true that "Allah" was used by ARABIC SPEAKING Christians, but not until well AFTER Mohammed. (Before then Arabic was not widely spoken at all.) The earliest Arabic translation of a biblical text we have is from the 8th century, a good hundred years after the death of Mohammed. It is there that "Allah" first appears in a biblical text (a psalm). This translation was UNDER MUSLIM RULE, so Christians, as dhimmis, had to comply with translating both YHWH and Elohim and later also the New Testament THEOS with "Allah", so not to anger Muslim rulers who insisted that their Allah is the Christian deity. Christians have always known that the God of the bible and Allah are very different in character and not identical. I mean I know two guys called Roger... they have have the same name but are not the same people. One lives in Beijing with two Chinese boyfriends and does youtube blogs and sells dodgy electrical items on ebay, the other lives in the North of England and is a maths teacher, married with 2 kids. The two could not be more different, but they have the name.

I mentioned to you the recent court order from Malaysia forbidding Christians to use "Allah". This confirms that even Muslims do not believe their own story. You never commented on that. Why not?

"Allah" does not mean "God" in general, it is a specific "god", the title of a god. In Islam it is the title of the god of Islam, who according to Islam is also the only god.

And I am sorry if it upsets you, but "Allah" did not need an introduction to Mohammed's followers, as "Allah" had always been understood to be the main deity in the Arab pre-Islamic religion. You know the verses about the so-called daughters of Allah?
Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat? (53:19f)
The passage reveals something unintended, namely that "Allah" at one point before Islam was indeed known to be part or a "family" of gods, and these three goddesses are as much known to the Arabs at Mohammed times as Allah was.

Now, if you check, you find that the original "Allah" who did have these three daughters as indeed a moon-god. That does not mean that modern Muslim pray to the moon god, but it means that "Allah" has a history with is very remote from Christianity or Judaism. You can find much more of Allah's pre-Islamic past if you examine the rituals for Ramadan and the hajj.

Mohammed simply did this: he took the MAIN deity of the Kaaba, the "Allah", pronounced that also the Christians and Jews worship this "Allah" and that he was the only god. This was at the time when he still tried to make converts from the Christians and Jews. He then retold biblical stories with Allah in them, and all with a new twist to confirm him as a prophet. When his efforts brought only laughter and few converts, Mohammed got bitter and angry and the violent stand of Islam was born.
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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Centaur wrote:true, Allah = the God or Al + ilah, but which one is it lies the problem. For example bible says god/ilah of this world is Satan.
first, Allah is Allah, not Al-ilah/the ilah :
Many scholars say "Allah" is derived from a compound Arabic word, AL + ILAH = Allah. "Ilah" in Arabic is "God" and "Al" in Arabic is a definite article like our word "the". So from an English equivalent "Allah" comes from "The + God". Others, like Arthur Jeffery say, "The common theory is that it is formed from ilah, the common word for a god, and the article al-; thus al-ilah, the god," becomes Allah, "God." This theory, however, is untenable. In fact, the name is one of the words borrowed into the language in pre-Islamic times from Aramaic." (Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery, 1958, p 85)
second, ilah isn't God, thus ilah isn't El in Bible : https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ilah = whatever which served, obeyed, or worshiped
QS. 45:23. Have you seen he who has taken his ilah his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah? Then will you not be reminded?
third, in the Quran, there's only God & not God, there's no term of false God/El as in the Bible, so in the Quran, God is God, & Satan is not God.
Centaur wrote:aren't some european isis jihadis known as Al Britani and so on?
Al is The in English, thus Al isn't El in Bible.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:"Allah" is a conflation of the article "Al" = "the" and ilah. Al + ilah = Allah. It means "THE" god, a specific one.
that's wrong, if Allah coming from ilah, then Allah will not be read as Awlloh, but Allah will still read as Allah.

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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garudaman, we can argue about man things, but not about obvious facts. ilah means "god" or "idol"...

Your own source says so:
ilah ... sering juga diartikan sebagai "tuhan"
Then, just as in any language, it also can be used figuratively:

"To Brian whisky is his god" .... meaning the most important thing in his life is his bottle of whisky.

The figure of speech is never the original, concrete meaning of a word.

So when your source says "namun sebenarnya arti..." he is putting the cart before the horse. The original, real meaning is "god", but it can obviously also used in other ways...

"Ilah" arti sebenarnya adalah "tuhan" tapi juga diartikan sebagai "segala sesuatu yang diabdi, ditaati, atau disembah"

"Untuk Brian minuman whisky adalah tuhannya." Tapi bukan berarti bahwa Brian menyembah sebotol whisky.

Dan juga:
Qur'an 45:23 wrote:Maka pernahkah kamu melihat orang yang menjadikan hawa nafsunya sebagai tuhannya dan Allah membiarkannya berdasarkan ilmu-Nya dan Allah telah mengunci mati pendengaran dan hatinya dan meletakkan tutupan atas penglihatannya? Maka siapakah yang akan memberinya petunjuk sesudah Allah (membiarkannya sesat). Maka mengapa kamu tidak mengambil pelajaran?
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Centaur
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Centaur »

Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:"Allah" is a conflation of the article "Al" = "the" and ilah. Al + ilah = Allah. It means "THE" god, a specific one.
that's wrong, if Allah coming from ilah, then Allah will not be read as Awlloh, but Allah will still read as Allah.
yes that's right so obvious and makes sense, it would be wrong other wise. Mohamed's father was a pagan named Abdullah aka slave of Allah. where did he go for worshiping? Kabbalah the pagan worship centre of Arabia.Allah was definitely one of the idols in Kaaba.was it the black stone by any chance?
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Al is The in English, thus Al isn't El in Bible.
Nobody said that.

The Aramaic word for "god is "elah" which is obviously the same as "ilah".

As to translating ilah, type "moon god" into google translate and have a look for yourself.
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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Centaur wrote:Mohamed's father was a pagan named Abdullah aka slave of Allah. where did he go for worshiping? Kabbalah the pagan worship centre of Arabia.Allah was definitely one of the idols in Kaaba.was it the black stone by any chance?
& we also have a Jew named Abdullah ibn Ubayy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd-Allah_ibn_Ubayy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where did he go for worshiping? & also a Christian named Abdullah ibn ath-Thamir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... _of_Najran" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where did he go for worshiping? Allah was definitely the Arabic term for God.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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manfred wrote:As to translating ilah, type "moon god" into google translate and have a look for yourself.
also type "God" into google translate and have a look for yourself, & you still didn't explain why Allah is read Awlloh not Allah.
Spoiler! :

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

oh garudaman, are you afraid of google translate? We already know what the MUSLIM "god" is called, and that is what you get when you type in "God" into the translator. To get the generic term for "god" you need to use an expression such as "moon god" or "god of wine" or "god of war" to see the actual word for "god in Arabic.
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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we also have a Jew named Abdullah ibn Ubayy and a Chirstian called Abdullah ibn ath-Thamir
According to MUSLIM sources.

Outside of them, you would have great difficulties finding anyone Jewish or Christian called Abdullah, as there are no such people.

"Abdullah" was originally a name/title for a person involved in the pagan rituals of the Kaaba, and later also became a Muslim name.

Neither Christians nor Jews are in the habit of calling their children "Abdullah"...

The Jewish "Abdullah" was called so after he converted to Islam, as some sources say, and the the Christian one was referred to in the Muslim sources by the name before he became a Christian, so that particular "Allah" is not the Muslim one at all, but the pagan one, the "Allah" from which the Islamic deity was created by Mohammed.
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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http://www.arabicbible.com/for-christia ... islam.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first-known translation of the Bible into Arabic, which took place in the 9th century, uses the word Allah for God (1)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some archaeological excavation quests have led to the discovery of ancient pre-Islamic inscriptions and tombs made by Arab Christians in the ruins of a church at Umm el-Jimal in Northern Jordan, which contained references to Allah as the proper name of God, and some of the graves contained names such as "Abd Allah" which means "the servant/slave of Allah".[32][33][34]

The name Allah can be found countless times in the reports and the lists of names of Christian martyrs in South Arabia, as reported by antique Syriac documents of the names of those martyrs from the era of the Himyarite and Aksumite kingdoms.[35][36]

A Christian leader named Abd Allah ibn Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad was martyred in Najran in 523, as he had worn a ring that said "Allah is my lord".[35][37]

In an inscription of Christian martyrion dated back to 512, references to Allah can be found in both Arabic and Aramaic, which called him "Allah" and "Alaha", and the inscription starts with the statement "By the Help of Allah".[35][38][39]

In pre-Islamic Gospels, the name used for God was "Allah", as evidenced by some discovered Arabic versions of the New Testament written by Arab Christians during the pre-Islamic era in Northern and Southern Arabia.[40][41][42]

Pre-Islamic Arab Christians have been reported to have raised the battle cry "Ya La Ibad Allah" (O slaves of Allah) to invoke each other into battle.[43]

"Allah" was also mentioned in pre-Islamic Christian poems by some Ghassanid and Tanukhid poets in Syria and Northern Arabia.[44][45][46]

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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OK, now have a look a the SOURCES of that wiki article. You find almost all of this stuff comes from MUSLIMS.

For example, we don't have any "pre-Islamic gospels" in Arabic. They don't exist. You said yourself that that the first Arabic bible is 9th century.

Also, Abd Allah ibn Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad was the son of Abu Bakr, hardly a Christian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Abi_Bakr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So you say there was another guy with the same name, living 100 years earlier, and he was a Christian? Really? How come only Muslims know about him and a couple of authors paid by the Saudis?

Hmmm.....

Let me put it this way: there are quite strict naming conventions in Christianity. The only way a Christian could end up with a name like Mohammed or Abdullah would be as a convert, and even then he would be encouraged to change it. Just as Muslim don't name their kids "Charles Martel" Christians would not give a kid a Muslim name. They would also be reluctant to use a name associated with other religions. No Christian boy called Krishna either.


In fact the Qur'an is the first actual text written in Arabic and that language was a fairly new one at that point. There is evidence that the original version of the Qur'an was actually in Syriac, but that is another topic...

Christians would have used Coptic or Greek or Syriac in worship at the time of Mohammed, and Jews obviously Hebrew.

The Syriac and Aramaic word for God sound a little Allah, but is not the same word. There is no double "l" for example.

About the other "Abdullah", Abdallah b. ath-Thamir.:
Said Ibn Ishaq: Yazid b. Ziyad related to me from Mud b. Ka'b al Qurazi an account which I heard also from certain people of Najran, who had heard it from their forefathers, how that the people of Najran were polytheists, worshipping idols. In one of the villages near Najran, for Najran itself was the capital city of that country, there was a magician, who taught occult arts to the youth of Najran. When Phemion came there (the story of Ibn Munabbih does not name him, but says — "a man came there"), he set up a tent between Najran and that village where dwelt the magician, to whom the people of Najran used to send their youths to learn occult arts. Now it came to pass that ath-Thamir sent his son ‘Abdallah along with the youths of Najran, and as he passed the owner of that tent he was astonished at what he saw of his prayers and his worship. So he began to take his seat near him and listen to him, which resulted in his conversion, so that he turned his face to God and worshipped Him. Then he began to ask (Phemion) about the religious law of this faith, and when he was well instructed therein, began to ask him about the mightiest names of God. But though Phemion knew this he concealed it from him, saying, "My child, you could not bear it; I fear you are too weak for it."


Mystery solved. He was a CONVERT to Christianity and "Abdullah" was the name he had before he became a Christian.

Now, do tell us, what Mohammed's father's religion? And what religion did Mohammed follow before his cave adventure?


As to these inscriptions mentioning Allah, isn't strange how some Muslim writers always talk about them but never show us a picture?

Let me help you by putting a picture of the the inscription your article mentions:

Image

Now, according to your source, it would be the FIRST word in that text that says "Allah". That is just plain wrong:

To realize this, all one needs to do is compare them to the first two letters of line #3, which really are ‘a’ and ‘l’, (composing the definite article part of ‘al-Ubaid’). In addition, that first letter also has a diacritical mark (the dot underneath), which ‘alif, of course, never has.

The first letter in the inscription is plainly a "b".

It actually is this:

Image

The word reads "This (inscription) has been set up..."
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

what is clear is Muslims are commanded to say Allah to Christians & Jews, not ilah :

QS. 5:17. ...Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?"...

QS. 5:60. Say, "Shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that as penalty from Allah? [It is that of] those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of Taghut. Those are worse in position and further astray from the sound way."


it's shows that ilah don't necessarily refer to God, & Allah surely refers to/means God (& Christians and Jews know it).

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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Of course, Garudaman, Allah refers to the Muslim god. (Some Arabic speaking Christians also say "Allah", but they mean something quite different to the Muslim Allah) Allah speaks of fighting, killing and torturing, of booty and sex, the Christian God speaks of saving mankind...

It really is very simple, I don't know what we argue about... "Allah" is a SPECIFIC god, i.e. mostly the Muslim God.

"Ilah" is any god or idol.

It is the same in your country: If you ask an Indonesian to translate "god", a Muslim will almost always say "Allah", but there is also the word Tuhan....
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Of course, Garudaman, Allah refers to the Muslim God
what for, muslim commanded to say Muslim-God to Non-Muslim? so that Non-Muslims don't understand?

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