Three of many errors in the Quran

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman:
No it doesn't, the verse says nothing whatsoever about the shape of the earth,

that's because you ignore the data/references
.




The only data/ references that are of interest to Muslims are the tafsir,which clarify Quranic verses,and this particular tafsir from Al Jalalayan confirms verse 88.20 by saying:

" As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law"

The earth is a sphere, proved to be so when a lunar or solar eclipse occurs,the earths shadow matches perfectly over the shape of the sun/moon, which are both spheres themselves.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa ... nguageId=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quran 88.20
And at the Earth, how it is spread out?

Al Jalalayan tafsir 88.20

And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law"

Jesus claims Jews teachs hates your enemies, which is nothing in the OT.
This has nothing to do with the Quran verse 9.30 which claims the Jews worship a respected Jewish scholar as Allah (God) they don't, the Quran is wrong.

proceding is proceding, not producing.
[/quote]

Quran 86.

6. He is created from a drop emitted-

7. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs

The Quran with its subsequent tafsir are both wrong, sperm does NOT "proceed from between the backbone and the ribs."

Ibn Kathir:
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... emid=142#1

Three errors in a book said to come from God, are three too many.

The Quran is a man made book, not a god made book.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:The only data/references that are of interest to Muslims are the tafsir
the only trully data/references of Islam is Quran, & QS. 39:5 said earth is ball.
frankie wrote:"As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’
no, sutihat is sphread : https://translate.google.co.id/?hl=en&t ... 8%AD%D8%AA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
frankie wrote:This has nothing to do with the Quran verse 9.30 which claims the Jews worship a respected Jewish scholar as Allah (God) they don't,
if you ok with Jesus criticized unbiblical Jews, then you must ok with Prophet Muhammad criticized unbiblical Jews.
frankie wrote:sperm does NOT "proceed from between the backbone and the ribs."

Ibn Kathir:
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest.
you push your semen using your abdominal muscles, so your semen outburst proceed from between your ribs & backbone.
Last edited by Garudaman on Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

Fernando wrote:So? Does each city have its own sun and its own muddy pool? Of course not: the sun becomes invisible in one city while still looking high in another...
so, it's proof that Quran said earth is globe, since impossible sun looks like set on muddy water if earth is flat.

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Centaur
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Centaur »

twist it as you want, but it wasn't looking like setting in the muddy pool but setting in the muddy pool..Zulkarnyan didn't reach the place by sunset but literally reached the place where sun sets.Old mO just copied Alexander legend and claimed its from God

The story of Dhul-Qarnayn in the Quran (Sura al-Kahf 18:83-98) matches the Gog and Magog episode of the Romance, which has caused some controversy among Islamic scholars (see Alexander the Great in the Quran). Alexander was identified in Persian and Arabic-language sources as "Dhû-'l Qarnayn", Arabic for the "Horned One", likely a reference to the ram horns the image of Alexander wears on coins minted during his rule to indicate his descent from the Egyptian god Amun. Islamic accounts of the Alexander legend, particularly in Persia, combined the Pseudo-Callisthenes material with indigenous Sasanian Middle Persian ideas about Alexander.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_romance
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Centaur
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Centaur »

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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Thanks Centaur - nice find!
Incidentally, did you notice the preacher at the end up to the Islamic trick of claiming someone from long before Islam as a Muslim? Now that really IS inventing history!
EDIT
If you go direct to the YouTube version of the video, there are the others in the series by The Masked Arab.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sju28v0dCw8
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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

so, it's proof that Quran said earth is globe, since impossible sun looks like set on muddy water if earth is flat.
The fact that there are time zones proves that the Qur'an says the earth is a globe? Does the Qur'an mention time zones?

It is true that time zones are evidence of a curved earth, but as the Qur'an knows nothing about time zones t your argument makes no sense, sorry. In fact the way Islam insists people should fast, using the sun as a guide, clearly demonstrates that in early Islam people had no clue at all about time zones nor even about how seasons are different in different latitudes.

Also my friend, the Qur'an does not say the sun "LOOKS LIKE" it sets in a muddy pool, it is very specific: it says it ACTUALLY does. It also says there are people who live near this pool, and that a certain prophet otherwise known as Alexander the Great has visited both these people and talked to them, and also has seen this setting place of the sun.
impossible sun looks like set on muddy water if earth is flat
I am not sure if it is your English or your logic is failing here, but this also makes not sense to me at all, I am sorry.

The "model" the Qur'an proposes is much like this:



which is quote similar to this:



The sun follows a broadly semicircular course in this model which is somewhat "below" the heavens which are seen as a solid canopy. It then physically sets on earth, at a muddy pool somewhere in the "west" where there also some people. We are not really told how the sun returns to its starting position again, but we read it needs to ask permission before rising again each day. One view we find in some texts is that is traverses an ocean below our earth to get back to its rising point.

This is the description given in the Qur'an, and it was not until Muslims learnt some astronomy when the "re-reading" began...
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

Centaur wrote:twist it as you want, but it wasn't looking like setting in the muddy pool but setting in the muddy pool..Zulkarnyan didn't reach the place by sunset but literally reached the place where sun sets.
in this day modern people used to said that sun is setting, not looks like setting, & there's region called maghreb :
wiki wrote:The Maghreb (/ˈmæɡrɪb/[1] or /ˈmʌɡrəb/; literally "west, sunset";[1] Arabic: المغرب‎‎ al-Maɣréb; Berber: Tamazɣa, ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵗⴰ; previously known to Europeans as Barbary Coast or "Barbary States", derived from Berber),[2][3] or the Greater Maghreb (Arabic: المغرب الكبير ‎‎ al-Maghrib al-Kabīr), is usually defined as much or most of the region of western North Africa or Northwest Africa, west of EgyptThe Maghreb (/ˈmæɡrɪb/[1] or /ˈmʌɡrəb/; literally "west, sunset";[1] Arabic: المغرب‎‎ al-Maɣréb; Berber: Tamazɣa, ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵗⴰ; previously known to Europeans as Barbary Coast or "Barbary States", derived from Berber),[2][3] or the Greater Maghreb (Arabic: المغرب الكبير ‎‎ al-Maghrib al-Kabīr), is usually defined as much or most of the region of western North Africa or Northwest Africa, west of Egypt
Centaur wrote:Alexander was identified in Persian and Arabic-language sources as "Dhû-'l Qarnayn", Arabic for the "Horned One", likely a reference to the ram horns the image of Alexander wears on coins minted during his rule to indicate his descent from the Egyptian god Amun. Islamic accounts of the Alexander legend, particularly in Persia, combined the Pseudo-Callisthenes material with indigenous Sasanian Middle Persian ideas about Alexander.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the ... _the_Quran" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
wiki wrote:is in fact Cyrus the Great. Dhul-Qarnayn (Arabic for "the two-horned") is mentioned in the Quran.

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN9uGTFvXWg&t=1021s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

garudaman, the Maghreb is today the Arab term people use for Morocco and Algeria, the western most part of the Islamic world.

If you cross the ocean from there and go to Mexico, where does the sun "set" there, in the West or in the East? If Morocco was the "place" of a sunset, you should see the sun setting in the EAST when you are sitting on the beach in Cancun with your in your case alcohol free cocktail. Now, I have been there, and believe it or not, the sun sets in the West, the same as anywhere on earth.

And as to Dhû-'l Qarnayn, who ever you like him to be Cyrus or Alexander, did he really go and see the sun set in a muddy pool? The name means the "two horned one", by the way, and it was Alexander who was frequently depicted wearing ram's horns as a head dress, as here on this coin:

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Does the Qur'an mention time zones?
no, but the Quran mention that the reality is also the verse of God :

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... &verse=164" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ayy#(2:164:41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

QS. 2:164. Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs/ayat/verses for a people who use reason.

QS. 3:190. Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs/ayat/verses for those of understanding.

manfred wrote:And as to Dhû-'l Qarnayn, who ever you like him to be Cyrus or Alexander, did he really go and see the sun set in a muddy pool? The name means the "two horned one", by the way, and it was Alexander who was frequently depicted wearing ram's horns as a head dress, as here on this coin:
in poetic languange/literary art it's possible & Cyrus is more Quranic Dzulqarnain rather than Alexander : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN9uGTFvXWg&t=1021s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs/ayat/verses for a people who use reason.
Hi again, and sorry for being so fussy and quibble so much, but this has struck me before....

Here the Qur'an speaks of a BELIEF that Allah created life and that he controls the wind and clouds . The Qu'ran does not try to offer proof for such a belief but at the same time says that the very belief is proof. To me that is also a sign that the Qur'an cannot have divine origin, as that is false logic.

Suppose I say "I believe garudaman owes me 10 million Rupiah. That is complete proof that he must pay me, and you are stupid if you disagree."

That is more or less the line of argument here.

So, please tell me, how do we know that Allah controls winds and clouds? Don't say "the Qur'an says so", as then we have a circular argument which fails before we start.
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

As we go on about the shape of the Earth, we're forgetting another contradiction: the muddy pool. This not only means the Koran is wrong - the pool would boil away the first night - but consider the size of the pool, which would have to be 100 times wider than the Earth and have 1000000 times the volume for the sun to even fit. Which also means the sun can't travel through the pool and come out of the other side next morning either.
Face it, Garudaman, it's just an error.
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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

well Fernando, it all depends who you are asking about this, and some Muslims would actually say the sun the is much smaller than the earth. Also heat is not not fist thing in ancient thought that is associated with the sun... it is LIGHT only. The source of heat is not "discovered" much later.

So we have a tiny sun, a "lamp" as the Qur'an explains, running a course around a flat earth. And this sun is quite close to earth, some even place a value on it, no more than a few hundred miles above us.
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Centaur
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Centaur »

Garudaman wrote:
Centaur wrote:twist it as you want, but it wasn't looking like setting in the muddy pool but setting in the muddy pool..Zulkarnyan didn't reach the place by sunset but literally reached the place where sun sets.
in this day modern people used to said that sun is setting, not looks like setting, & there's region called
don't know what you meant there, but modern people don't say they reached the place where sun sets.
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Centaur wrote:
in this day modern people used to said that sun is setting, not looks like setting, & there's region called
don't know what you meant there, but modern people don't say they reached the place where sun sets.
I think Garudaman is saying that what is written in the Koran is subject to re-interpretation or treatment as a mixture of metaphor and simile, depending on what is required to win an argument in Islam's favour. Think Humpty Dumpty:
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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manfred wrote:Here the Qur'an speaks of a BELIEF that Allah created life and that he controls the wind and clouds . The Qu'ran does not try to offer proof for such a belief but at the same time says that the very belief is proof. To me that is also a sign that the Qur'an cannot have divine origin, as that is false logic.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=13780&start=20#p189649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

since there's too many coincidences which needed for generate/support life, there's no false logic.
manfred wrote:So, please tell me, how do we know that Allah controls winds and clouds? Don't say "the Qur'an says so", as then we have a circular argument which fails before we start.
there's too many coincidences which benefit human (alternation of the night and the day, wind blew ship, rain) is evidence of the existence of God's arrangement.

& maybe I need to remind you, Allah (Arabic) = God (English).

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Hello again!
Maybe I could ask for some examples of these coincidences you mention?

Allah (Arabic) = God (English)
Ehm, actually, no, that is not right...


Have a look at the words of the shahadda (syahada?) in Arabic:

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

The first word just means no, or not, and the second word in that sentence is "God"

إله which is ilah(a) It is that word, and not "Allah", that matches the Hebrew/Aramaic word "el" or "eli"...


Then in the sententece comes the Arabic word for "except" which is also a bit similar

إلا (ila)

and then we find the word Allah which is spelt differently from "god" and also pronounced differently:

الله Allah with a double "l" The alif at the start is given a different vowel, more like something in between an a and o. The word for "god" in Arabic starts with a definite "i" sound.


The word "Allah" does not mean "god", it is a kind of name or better a title for the deity of Islam. The same word was, before Islam, also the title by which the main idol of the Kaaba was addressed, the moon god. "Allah" is not a title in any biblical texts and none of the writers nor the people they wrote about would know who Allah was.

You may recall the demand from Muslims in Malaysia that Christians should not use "Allah" in prayer but say "Tahun" instead. Some Muslims went to court about that and the court in Malaysia rules that Allah cannot be used by non-Muslims. Incidentally I totally agree with that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24516181" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:since there's too many coincidences which needed for generate/support life, there's no false logic.
[snip]
there's too many coincidences which benefit human (alternation of the night and the day, wind blew ship, rain) is evidence of the existence of God's arrangement.
Oh dear, Garudaman, you sound to be verging on denying evolution as well. The things you suggest as proof of divine design are simply examples of evolution and adaptation of animals, or inventions by man to take account of, for example, the wind to use it to drive ships. You're just putting the cart before the horse. (Do camels pull carts, btw?)
I can't remember whether it was you or someone else who quoted the bit about the air being designed to allow birds to fly - a sort of inversion of standard Christian creationist nonsense. Did you know, by the way, that some Muslims claim that evolution was first discovered by Muslims, or that much of the recent Muslim support for creationism was inspired and funded by proselytising American "Young Earth" Christian fundamentalists?
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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Have a look at the words of the shahadda (syahada?) in Arabic:

لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
There is no god but Allah. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
that's not correct, the correct is, there's no that should be followed except God, & Muhammad is the Messenger of God.

https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilah" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ilah = whatever which served, obeyed, or worshiped
QS. 45:23. Have you seen he who has taken his ilah his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah? Then will you not be reminded?
manfred wrote:The word "Allah" does not mean "god", it is a kind of name or better a title for the deity of Islam. The same word was, before Islam, also the title by which the main idol of the Kaaba was addressed, the moon god. "Allah" is not a title in any biblical texts and non of the writers nor the people they wrote about would know who Allah was.
Pagan :
QS. 39:38. And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and the earth?" they would surely say, "Allah." Say, "Then have you considered what you invoke besides Allah? If Allah intended me harm, are they removers of His harm; or if He intended me mercy, are they withholders of His mercy?" Say, "Sufficient for me is Allah; upon Him [alone] rely the [wise] reliers."

Christian :
QS. 5:17. They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

Judaism/Jew :
QS. 5:64. And the Jews say, "The hand of Allah is chained." Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both His hands are extended; He spends however He wills. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. And We have cast among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it. And they strive throughout the land [causing] corruption, and Allah does not like corrupters.


so Allah can't be the name of God, but the Arabic term of God.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

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Fernando wrote:Oh dear, Garudaman, you sound to be verging on denying evolution as well. The things you suggest as proof of divine design are simply examples of evolution and adaptation of animals, or inventions by man to take account of, for example, the wind to use it to drive ships. You're just putting the cart before the horse. (Do camels pull carts, btw?)
I can't remember whether it was you or someone else who quoted the bit about the air being designed to allow birds to fly - a sort of inversion of standard Christian creationist nonsense. Did you know,
air that can be used for fly & blew ship first and then the evolution of bird & the making of sail by human, it's the same as, horse that can be used for pull the cart first and then the making of cart by human.

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