Three of many errors in the Quran

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Ohhhh, cute attack!!! :sml: I am tempted to get a cat now... Hang on, maybe not, I don't like the mess....

Now, the first camel has a saddle on, not really a carpet, although made from similar materials. A saddle, I I am told, can also protect a Muslim from women, donkeys or dogs invalidating prayers, right?

The others carry carpets to transport them, it looks like, or maybe for the rider to sit on. If you put the on the ground where the normally go, they are quite flat.

So to you "spread out" means comfort?

How about this guy....


He is "spread out... Is he comfortable?
do you really believe that he's really muslim?
Well, you got me there, I have to admit I have some doubts too, but he claims to be a Muslim and there are all kinds of Muslims about, so how can I tell?

This guy, however, I am pretty certain he is a Muslim, and he also says the earth is flat....



also this one



or this one


So for you, the Qur'an says the earth is comfortable...

Is it really? What about your other thread, on suffering? I thought everything is nice and comfortable?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:Not too long ago, Garudaman, we had this Muslim guy telling us how science is all wrong or lying to us, and that the earth is flat, over and over.

Have a look:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17268" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How do you explain this?
do you really believe that he's really muslim?
manfred wrote:When I say "like a carpet" what does it suggest? When I call something "spread out" or "like a bed/carpet" what comes to your mind? Also when you say it is like the place an ostrich lays its egg into, what are you thinking?
comfort place.
manfred wrote:Now, your fitted carpet pictures are cute, but fitted carpets were entirely unknown during Mohammed's time.
Spoiler! :
Image Image Image Image Image

Garudaman;

There are two more errors listed in this comment section, which you have not commented on.
Would you like to do so?

Quran 9.30 Claims the Jews call Ezra the son of Allah.

Ezra was just a renowned Jewish scholar, the Jews would be disobeying their own scriptures if they called him a "god "which would incur the death penalty.

Quran 86.6-7
Sperm is not produced between the backbone (of the man) and the ribs,(of the woman) the Quran is in error, making the Quran a man made book, not a god made book.

(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... emid=142#1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

All other considerations apart, the claim is that "spread out like a carpet" means spherical(ish). Surely, if Allah meant spherical(ish) he would have said something like "round, as wrapped all in a carpet". "Carpet" is being used now to draw attention away from "spread out" whereas Allah clearly used the word to confirm what he meant by "spread out" i.e. flat. Surely Allah knows best! :sml:
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:The others carry carpets to transport them, it looks like, or maybe for the rider to sit on.

or maybe for the rider if he want to sleep with leaning on a camel.
manfred wrote:If you put the on the ground where the normally go, they are quite flat.
so, you think, sit on camel, lean/sleep on camel is not normal?

it proves that they don't think carpet was flat, especially if they're also count cat &/ other soft fur animals as carpet.
manfred wrote:So to you "spread out" means comfort?
no, what I said is carpet mean comfort.
manfred wrote:This guy, however, I am pretty certain he is a Muslim, and he also says the earth is flat....
well, the Quran said, earth is ball :

QS. 39:5. He created the heavens and earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 39&verse=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kwr#(39:5:5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
https://translate.google.com/?hl=id#ar/ ... 9%88%D8%B1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
verba : ball
manfred wrote:So for you, the Qur'an says the earth is comfortable...

Is it really? What about your other thread, on suffering? I thought everything is nice and comfortable?
so, the Quran said, earth is place of comfort & suffering, then.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

Fernando wrote:All other considerations apart, the claim is that "spread out like a carpet" means spherical(ish). Surely, if Allah meant spherical(ish) he would have said something like "round, as wrapped all in a carpet". "Carpet" is being used now to draw attention away from "spread out" whereas Allah clearly used the word to confirm what he meant by "spread out" i.e. flat. Surely Allah knows best! :sml:
spread out can be done on any object, vertical, round, camel, etc, not must flat/horizontal object, so spread out doesn't show anything.
Spoiler! :
Image

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Garudaman wrote:QS. 39:5. He created the heavens and earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver.
Now, there is an interesting verse, thanks for bring that...

So the sun and the moon each take turns, right? They follow a course, for a term. (A day or a night are a term, I suppose, or maybe it means eventually the sun and moon will stop doing what they do now.)

So there is day over the whole earth, when it is the turn of the sun. and then the night wraps over the day (put the day away?) and it is the moons turn to "run it's course", round the earth, and the whole earth experiences night. The sun goes to sleep for a while in a muddy pool.

This is what we see when we read it, right?

There are 7 hours time difference between your place and mine, I think. When the sun sets in Jakarta, it is not even midday in London. How does that fit with the Qur'an rather cryptic description?

You have several links going through the words, but what does it mean to you?

I know this verse does not really want to teach cosmology, but what are the underlying assumptions here?
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:
Fernando wrote:All other considerations apart, the claim is that "spread out like a carpet" means spherical(ish). Surely, if Allah meant spherical(ish) he would have said something like "round, as wrapped all in a carpet". "Carpet" is being used now to draw attention away from "spread out" whereas Allah clearly used the word to confirm what he meant by "spread out" i.e. flat. Surely Allah knows best! :sml:
spread out can be done on any object, vertical, round, camel, etc, not must flat/horizontal object, so spread out doesn't show anything.
Spoiler! :
Image
A tennis ball wouldn't be much use if spread out, and spreading anything - e.g. butter or nutella - on it would be at once difficult, messy and pointless.
As for camels, I believe Allah authorises people to do all sorts of things on them - but it must be a bit uncomfortable at times.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:So there is day over the whole earth, when it is the turn of the sun. and then the night wraps over the day (put the day away?) and it is the moons turn to "run it's course", round the earth, and the whole earth experiences night. The sun goes to sleep for a while in a muddy pool.

This is what we see when we read it, right?
no, since it said "and" not "because" :

He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon
manfred wrote:There are 7 hours time difference between your place and mine, I think. When the sun sets in Jakarta, it is not even midday in London. How does that fit with the Qur'an rather cryptic description?
sun sets in Jakarta is sun sets in Jakarta, not sun sets in London.
manfred wrote:You have several links going through the words, but what does it mean to you?
God wrapping night & day on earth ball.
manfred wrote:I know this verse does not really want to teach cosmology, but what are the underlying assumptions here?
God wrapping night & day on earth ball, and set the sun & the moon.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

Fernando wrote:A tennis ball wouldn't be much use if spread out, and spreading anything - e.g. butter or nutella - on it would be at once difficult, messy and pointless.
As for camels, I believe Allah authorises people to do all sorts of things on them - but it must be a bit uncomfortable at times.
tennis ball is for ilustrate how carpet spread out on the ball, & if wouldn't be much use, then you just can bring the bigger ball.

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

God wrapping night & day on earth ball, and set the sun & the moon.
Where does it say "earth ball"?

Does the sun and the moon actually "set"?

Is the night and the day like a blanket, or some paper?
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:
Fernando wrote:A tennis ball wouldn't be much use if spread out, and spreading anything - e.g. butter or nutella - on it would be at once difficult, messy and pointless.
As for camels, I believe Allah authorises people to do all sorts of things on them - but it must be a bit uncomfortable at times.
tennis ball is for ilustrate how carpet spread out on the ball, & if wouldn't be much use, then you just can bring the bigger ball.
I didn't mean that tennis-ball size was too small - I meant that flattened tennis ball is no use!
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:sun sets in Jakarta is sun sets in Jakarta, not sun sets in London.
So? Does each city have its own sun and its own muddy pool? Of course not: the sun becomes invisible in one city while still looking high in another... but surely I don't need to explain this as if you were a flat-earther. Although Allah seems to be...
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
Fernando wrote:All other considerations apart, the claim is that "spread out like a carpet" means spherical(ish). Surely, if Allah meant spherical(ish) he would have said something like "round, as wrapped all in a carpet". "Carpet" is being used now to draw attention away from "spread out" whereas Allah clearly used the word to confirm what he meant by "spread out" i.e. flat. Surely Allah knows best! :sml:
spread out can be done on any object, vertical, round, camel, etc, not must flat/horizontal object, so spread out doesn't show anything.
Spoiler! :
Image


Garudaman:
Quran 88,20 is clarified by Al Jalalayan,who confirms the earth is flat, which is not true.

The Quran is in error, proving the Quran cannot come from God, as God would not make such a fundamental error about his own creation.

The other two errors listed are completely ignored by you, which indicates you can have no reasonable answer to explain them away, instead you are trying to force this flat earth claim to become factual, but are failing miserably to defend the indefensible.

You are wasting your time, and even your life defending a book which by its own admission has errors within it, which should not be there if it were truly from the source it claims to come from.

The Quran by its own admission cannot come from a divine source, so why use the contents from this proven fake to dictate the rest of your life?

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Where does it say "earth ball"?
Spoiler! :
QS. 39:5. He created the heavens and earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 39&verse=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kwr#&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;#40;39:5:5)
https://translate.google.com/?hl=id#ar/ ... 9%88%D8%B1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
verba : ball
manfred wrote:Does the sun and the moon actually "set"?
QS. 39:5. He created the heavens and earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver.
manfred wrote:Is the night and the day like a blanket, or some paper?
in literary art/poetic languange.

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:Garudaman:
Quran 88,20 is clarified by Al Jalalayan,who confirms the earth is flat, which is not true.
Spoiler! :
QS. 39:5. He created the heavens and earth in truth. He wraps the night over the day and wraps the day over the night and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running [its course] for a specified term. Unquestionably, He is the Exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver.

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp? ... 39&verse=5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=kwr#&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;#40;39:5:5)
https://translate.google.com/?hl=id#ar/ ... 9%88%D8%B1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
verba : ball
QS. 39:5 clarified that earth is ball, Jalalayn vs Quran, the winner is Quran.
frankie wrote:The other two errors listed are completely ignored by you
& the other two errors isn't really errors, since it coming from ignorance : people pushing semen using muscles between the ribs & backbone (abdominal muscles & surrounding), and Jesus also criticized the unbiblical Pharisees-deeds (hate your enemy).

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Garudaman, perhaps we need to look a but more closely.

You say "wraps" means the earth is a ball. Can you only wrap a ball? Yesterday I had a flat kebab for my lunch, wrapped in an omelette, similar what you call "bergadel". An envelope wraps up a letter. The word actually means "wrapping". Isn't say that "wrap" must imply "ball" somewhat far fetched? Specially when you yourself said that you can wrap anything in any shape?

Later you then say that "wraps" here is poetic language, which I think is true, but then you cannot at the same time suggest it describes the real shape of the earth.

I asked you to tell me if the sun and the moon really set, and you quote a verse at me? It's not hard, do they or do they not have a place where they set?

Now, one more thing worth noting about the night and the day being "blankets".... It speaks of day and night being independent of the sun. While we could have "night" without a moon, it is only the light from the sun that causes day, or its absence that causes night.

This separation of day and night from the sun is in fact a very ancient way of thinking. Many ancient cultures have similar things: In Hinduism there is Ratri, goddess of night and Chandra, god of the moon, and in a great many old mythologies the night has a deity, being seen as independent of the sun. Many ancients believed that the sun brought some light, but not "the day".

This old idea has also bee n picked up in the Qur'an in 71:16, where the sun is described as a "lamp", as if it was some added extra to the day, and both day and night were some independent creatures or entities...
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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:
frankie wrote:The other two errors listed are completely ignored by you
& the other two errors isn't really errors, since it coming from ignorance
WOW! You read it here first, folks: Allah isn't wrong, he's just ignorant! :bulb:
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman:
QS. 39:5 clarified that earth is ball, Jalalayn vs Quran, the winner is Quran.
No it doesn't, the verse says nothing whatsoever about the shape of the earth, the Quran is still in error. AL Jalalayan stands as written.

Quran 39.5.
He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?

Would Allah allow his scholars of the Quran to be wrong, which would lead Muslims astray?
Jesus also criticized the unbiblical Pharisees-deeds (hate your enemy).
Quran 9.30 Claims the Jews call Ezra the son of Allah.

Ezra was just a renowned Jewish scholar, the Jews would be disobeying their own scriptures if they called him a "god "which would incur the death penalty.

Jesus admonished the Jewish elders for their hypocrisy, not because they claimed to worship one of their own scholars.

Quran 86.

6. He is created from a drop emitted-

7. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Sperm is not produced between the backbone (of the man) and the ribs,(of the woman) the Quran is in error, making the Quran a man made book, not a god made book.

Ibn Kathir:
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... emid=142#1

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:No it doesn't, the verse says nothing whatsoever about the shape of the earth,
that's because you ignore the data/references.
frankie wrote:Jesus admonished the Jewish elders for their hypocrisy, not because they claimed to worship one of their own scholars.
Jesus claims Jews teachs hates your enemies, which is nothing in the OT.
frankie wrote:Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

Sperm is not produced between the backbone (of the man) and the ribs,(of the woman) the Quran is in error, making the Quran a man made book, not a god made book.

Ibn Kathir:
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... emid=142#1
proceding is proceding, not producing.

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

OK, "between the backbone and the ribs" clearly describes only one possible place, I think, the chest cavity.

How does sperm "come out from" (which is what "proceed" means) the chest cavity..? I think garudaman this is making is worse, as I really never heard of any man who had an orgasm with sperm coming out from his nipples or some such place.... Proceed obviously can only mean in this context a place of first origin, but not not the place sperm leaves the body. I am pretty sure Mohammed was perfectly aware where sperm left his body.

I looks to me that you are having trouble to look at the text as what it is. It expresses an anatomically incorrect idea, but perhaps an idea people had at the time? I cannot see any way this passage can be read as an allegory, so realistically we have a problem...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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