Three of many errors in the Quran

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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farside
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by farside »

manfred wrote:It is kind of odd how a book supposedly written before the universe existed and for for ALL time and and all people has a whole chapter on Mohammed's uncle, and not only that, a whole chapter bad mouthing him.

Of all the people in the entire history, only this man deserves such treatment?
As of today, Allah has not read the farsideology section of wikiislam. Perhaps the Quran needs an additional chapter.

Kind Regards,
Farside of wikiislam :farside:

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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

farside wrote:As of today, Allah has not read the farsideology section of wikiislam. Perhaps the Quran needs an additional chapter.

Kind Regards,
Farside of wikiislam :farside:
And since the Koran's chapters aren't in chronological order, yours could go at the beginning. Then people wouldn't need to bother reading the rest. :sml:
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Is Koran 9:29 to be taken literally? I need to know. If it is to be taken literally then would you support my assassination or dhimmitude?

sum
QS. 9:29 (literally) is QS. 5:34 case, "those who return [repenting] before you apprehend/fight them" (they fight muslim first but they're surrender before muslims fight them), that's why they charged jizya instead killed as according to QS. 5:32-33, so there's no assassination to criminals on that verse.

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Is Koran 9:29 to be taken literally? I need to know. If it is to be taken literally then would you support my assassination or dhimmitude?

sum
QS. 9:29 (literally) is QS. 5:34 case, "those who return [repenting] before you apprehend/fight them" (they fight muslim first but they're surrender before muslims fight them), that's why they charged jizya instead killed as according to QS. 5:32-33, so there's no assassination to criminals on that verse.
Garudaman:

You are conveniently forgetting other verses which call for the terrorising of unbelievers to bring them to accept Allah as the only god worthy of worship.

Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
Quran 8.12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Being an unbeliever according to Islam marks you a target to be terrorised in the name of Allah, which is exactly what Mohammed achieved by obeying the Quran:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).


You can find many contradictory verses in the Quran, one of which you cite, to argue your case.

Verse 9.29 is more than clear in its instruction, it tells Muslims to fight those who do not believe in Allah

The "jizya" is extortion money, a worldly vice, wrapped up as a religious requirement, which should not be there, if Islam was truly founded on the spiritual salvation of mans soul.


The Quran claims to be clear, easy to understand and for all times and places, if you have to "jump through hoops" every time to understand each verse, then it has failed in the very mission it claims to accomplish.

sum
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I do not believe in Allah. I do not believe that Muhammad was a prophet. I live my life my way and disregard what Allah and Muhammad teach. I will not pay jijya.

What does Islam say should happen to me with reference to Koran 9:29?

sum

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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

This raises an interesting point.
frankie wrote: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings
This brings us straight back to Humpty Dumpty and fits perfectly with the sort of argument we get here: where words are assigned any meaning that can be derived from their roots in order to "win" an argument.
The Quran claims to be clear, easy to understand and for all times and places, if you have to "jump through hoops" every time to understand each verse, then it has failed in the very mission it claims to accomplish.
Very true, if it really was a guide for everyone's life. As a playbook for Mohammed to get his own desires, it worked very well.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

sum
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Please return to this thread and answer my question.

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I do not believe in Allah. I do not believe that Muhammad was a prophet. I live my life my way and disregard what Allah and Muhammad teach. I will not pay jijya.

What does Islam say should happen to me with reference to Koran 9:29?

sum
based on QS. 4:75 & QS. 4:88-92, there's nothing should happen to you unless you fight against muslim or any other people without right reason.

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

based on QS. 4:75 & QS. 4:88-92, there's nothing should happen to you unless you fight against muslim or any other people without right reason
.


Maybe so, but what about the other verses which advocate aggression against people based on their unbelief in Allah?

And what about Mohammed understanding of his "revelations “how did he put them into action in obedience to them?

Was Mohammed right or wrong when he fought non combatants to bring them to accept Islam?

According to you, based on 4.75 and 4.88-92 he was wrong, because the people who Mohammed fought were not fighting him, but because Mohammed claimed he had been” ordered to fight people until they say non has the right to be worshipped except Allah “this is what he did.

As far as Mohammed was concerned the “right to fight” was given to him, unbelievers were legitimate targets to be fought, his god told him it was o.k.to do so.

According to your own sources, Mohammed obeyed his god, and did exactly what his “revelations “told him.

You are showing us clearly why Islam cannot be from any divine source because it is far too contradictory, and based on violence.
No other religion except Islam, legitimises violence to spread its message, Islam is therefore not a true religion. True religion is based on the spiritual combat of a spiritual evil, but Mohammed turned this into physical fighting of people.

Muslims claim the Quran is clear, easy to understand guidance for them, if this was the case, then you would have no need to defend it, claiming context first should be taken into consideration, to avoid any mis understanding.

If Islam were from the same god it claims to represent then there would be no violent verses within its book, given as guidance for mankind, but there are, proving the Quran is written from a position of deception, because it is not what it claims to be.

Muslims are given clarification with the tafsir, are you saying these are wrong too?

Sahih Al Bukhari Vol 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.

Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"


Q4:95 – Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons, than to those who sit at home. To all has God promised good, but He favors those who strive and fight, above those who sit at home, with a special reward…

Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Quran 9.30
And the Jews say: "Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allah,'' and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah.'' That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. May Allah fight them, how they are deluded away from the truth!)

“Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers”


Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9.30
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars, That is their saying with their mouths), but they have no proof that supports their claim, other than lies and fabrications resembling), imitating the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime.) They imitate the previous nations who fell into misguidance just as Jews and Christians did,, may Allah fight them), Ibn `Abbas said, "May Allah curse them (how they are deluded away from the truth!) how they deviate from truth, when it is apparent, exchanging it for misguidance.......

Sahih Al Muslim Book 19 Number 4292

Ibn 'Aun reported:
“I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops”

Al Muslim:
Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.

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Fernando
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Garudaman wrote:based on QS. 4:75 & QS. 4:88-92, there's nothing should happen to you unless you fight against muslim or any other people without right reason.
Garudaman, you must know quite well that "fighting against Muslim" is taken by many Muslim authorities to include making any criticism of Islam, Mohammed, Allah or indeed Muslims. It's not interpreted as only meaning physical attacks.

While we're on the subject of the Koran and interpretations, what about your sig?
any Atheist will not be able to explain, how the air coincidentally can be used by bird to evolve fly & fly more easily (QS. 16:79)!
Where did you come by this transation? Sahih International, for instance, translates it
Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah . Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe
No atheists there, no evolution, no lack of explanation. And in your translation, no Allah! Are you trying to write the mediaeval Islam out of the Koran, Garudaman?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

piscohot
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by piscohot »

SAM wrote:
frankie wrote:
Claiming the Jews worship an eminent Jewish scribe Ezra, as God 9.30
Quran 9.30,The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

The Jews consider Uzair a very pious person. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia the title of son of God is used for pious people.... Dummy

:stupid: :lol:

SAM,

If the title 'son of God' refer to pious people, why is Allah so pissed about Uzair being called a ''son of Allah'?
Nice try at lying, SAM.

:stupid: :lol:
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

frankie wrote:Sahih Al Bukhari Vol 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.

Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Tafsir Ibn Kathir 9.30
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars, That is their saying with their mouths), but they have no proof that supports their claim, other than lies and fabrications resembling), imitating the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime.) They imitate the previous nations who fell into misguidance just as Jews and Christians did,, may Allah fight them), Ibn `Abbas said, "May Allah curse them (how they are deluded away from the truth!) how they deviate from truth, when it is apparent, exchanging it for misguidance.......
based on QS. 4:88-92, QS. 4:75, those is fake hadith & tafsir.
frankie wrote:Q4:95 – Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons, than to those who sit at home. To all has God promised good, but He favors those who strive and fight, above those who sit at home, with a special reward…

Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Quran 9.30
And the Jews say: "Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allah,'' and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah.'' That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. May Allah fight them, how they are deluded away from the truth!)
based on QS. 4:88-92, QS. 4:75, those is must read in the way :

Q4:95 – Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of God (fighting against who fight muslim or any innocent) with their goods and their persons. God has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons, than to those who sit at home. To all has God promised good, but He favors those who strive and fight, above those who sit at home, with a special reward…

Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause (fighting against who fight muslim or any innocent), and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers (who fight muslim or any innocent), for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Quran 9.30
And the Jews say: "Uzayr (Ezra) is the son of Allah,'' and the Christians say: "The Messiah is the son of Allah.'' That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. May Allah (not Muslim) fight them, how they are deluded away from the truth!)
Sahih Al Muslim Book 19 Number 4292

Ibn 'Aun reported:
“I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops”

Al Muslim:
Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions for it is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.
based on QS. 4:88-92, QS. 4:75, those were addressed to non-muslims who previously fight against muslims or any other innocents.

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

There is one problem with that argument, garudaman: Surah 4 is the 92nd "revealed", before the conquest of Mecca, and surah 9 is the 113th, from immediately AFTER the conquest of Mecca. In the later version the instructions are clear and very different: Fight to the death all non-Muslims, making no distinction between people of the book and others. There are only four scenarios the fighting should stop: a) all the non-Muslims are dead b) all the Muslims are dead c) the non-Muslims surrender and agree to pay protection money d) the non-Muslims agree to convert to Islam.

As Surah 9 is later than surah 4, the instructions of surah 8 abrogate any earlier ones.
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Fernando »

Apart from which, we've got those sneaky little bits in brackets again. Are there bits in brackets in an unedited Arabic Koran, Garudaman?
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

all Quran is unity :

QS. 45:20. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment for mankind and guidance and mercy for a people who are certain [in faith].

so there's no any fight non-muslim in Surah 9, since Surah 9 is said same with Surah 4 :

QS. 9:7-10. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (who fight against muslim or any other innocent) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

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manfred
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by manfred »

Surah 9 is said same with Surah 4
Not sure that is quite right....

In surah 4 we read about fighting oppressors, and about honouring treaties.

In surah 9 we are told "How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram?" So agreements are void with non-Muslims. Why? it says so too: If they don;t pay protection money, then that is a reason to nullify ALL agreements, whenever opportune:" They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection."

In surah 9, we have moved on from fighting "oppressors", we are told to fight ALL non-Muslims, BECAUSE of their beliefs, see 9:30.

So there is a very significant shift in position between the two texts, and the most recent is the most relevant.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:all Quran is unity :

QS. 45:20. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment for mankind and guidance and mercy for a people who are certain [in faith].

so there's no any fight non-muslim in Surah 9, since Surah 9 is said same with Surah 4 :

QS. 9:7-10. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (who fight against muslim or any other innocent) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Garudaman:

Hate to tell you this, but the man you revere as your Islamic role model for all time, fought people to bring them to accept Islam, if this method of dawah was good enough for him, then it should be good enough for you, don't you think?

frankie
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:all Quran is unity :

QS. 45:20. This [Qur'an] is enlightenment for mankind and guidance and mercy for a people who are certain [in faith].

so there's no any fight non-muslim in Surah 9, since Surah 9 is said same with Surah 4 :

QS. 9:7-10. How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him]. How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

QS. 9:13. Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (who fight against muslim or any other innocent) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Garudaman:

Your version of 9.29 is not the true Islamic one.

This is the true version with its subsequent tafsir,can you spot the difference to the one you give?

I am sure you can if your really try.

Quran 9.29
"Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.)


Ibn Kathir
Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said,
(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,
(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors ﴿of our houses of worship﴾ for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit ﴿or betrayal﴾ against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices ﴿with prayer﴾ at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

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Garudaman
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Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:
Surah 9 is said same with Surah 4
Not sure that is quite right....

In surah 4 we read about fighting oppressors, and about honouring treaties.

In surah 9 we are told "How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram?" So agreements are void with non-Muslims. Why? it says so too: If they don;t pay protection money, then that is a reason to nullify ALL agreements, whenever opportune:" They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection."
At-Tawba :
How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. (8) They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. (9) They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors. (10)


do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection = averted [people] from His way
manfred wrote:In surah 9, we have moved on from fighting "oppressors", we are told to fight ALL non-Muslims, BECAUSE of their beliefs, see 9:30.

So there is a very significant shift in position between the two texts, and the most recent is the most relevant.
QS. 45:20 said that the whole Quran is unity, so there's no any move on/shift to, & QS. 9:29 isnt correlated to QS. 9:30.
frankie wrote:Your version of 9.29 is not the true Islamic one.
of course its the true one, since itsn't contrary to QS. 4:88-92 & QS. 45:20, while your tafsir is contrary to it.

frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Three of many errors in the Quran

Post by frankie »

Garudaman wrote:
manfred wrote:
Surah 9 is said same with Surah 4
Not sure that is quite right....

In surah 4 we read about fighting oppressors, and about honouring treaties.

In surah 9 we are told "How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram?" So agreements are void with non-Muslims. Why? it says so too: If they don;t pay protection money, then that is a reason to nullify ALL agreements, whenever opportune:" They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection."
At-Tawba :
How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient. (8) They have exchanged the signs of Allah for a small price and averted [people] from His way. Indeed, it was evil that they were doing. (9) They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors. (10)


do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection = averted [people] from His way
manfred wrote:In surah 9, we have moved on from fighting "oppressors", we are told to fight ALL non-Muslims, BECAUSE of their beliefs, see 9:30.

So there is a very significant shift in position between the two texts, and the most recent is the most relevant.
QS. 45:20 said that the whole Quran is unity, so there's no any move on/shift to, & QS. 9:29 isnt correlated to QS. 9:30.
frankie wrote:Your version of 9.29 is not the true Islamic one.
of course its the true one, since itsn't contrary to QS. 4:88-92 & QS. 45:20, while your tafsir is contrary to it.


Garudaman:
"frankie"]Your version of 9.29 is not the true Islamic one.
of course its the true one, since itsn't contrary to QS. 4:88-92 & QS. 45:20, while your tafsir is contrary to it.
Your version of 9.29 has something added, which is blasphemy according to your god, demanding death in this life and the fires of hell in the next.

QS. 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture (who fight against muslim or any other innocent) - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.


The tafsir quoted is not MINE, claiming it is, just shows how weak your argument is when defining your faith, which ironically has been defined for you by the tafsir,and by the actions of your false prophet, who claimed he had been ordered to fight people until they accept Allah as the only god worthy of worship.Bukhar1 52.4.196

If this tafsir is contrary to the Quran, this alone proves that the Islamic god is not omnipotent, and therefore not a god, as he allows his own scholars to give contrary information to his alleged eternal guidance to mankind.

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