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Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:34 am
by manfred
OK, SAM, suppose you will dump all the hadith, as you say....
And anything else written about Mohammed, leaving only the Qur'an, as you say...

Then you side-step one problem only to create a bigger one.... As you are only left with the Qur'an, there is no sunnah to follow, as we have to disregard ALL sources about Mohammed except the Qur'an.

So, for example, how then do you know how to pray? What do do in Hajj? Where does it mention anything about the five pillars of Islam or the pillars of faith in the Qur'an, properly spelled out?

Finally, as you are left with knowing very little about this Mohammed, as you reject all the sources around, how can you take him as an authority. What is the Qur'an without Mohammed's testimony?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:10 am
by frankie
Seems abinaya has no answers to refute the questions asked, logic as always defeats the Muslims mind.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:19 am
by Fernando
frankie wrote:Seems abinaya has no answers to refute the questions asked, logic as always defeats the Muslims mind.
Give abinaya a chance - not everyone's used to having to shout over SAM's distractions.
So please do continue abinaya, we'd like to hear your opinions.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:37 am
by frankie
Unimportant for Muslim except all the teachings of Islam, the Five Pillars of Islam and Six Pillars of Faith, the teachings of Abraham.. (SUBMISSION).



SAM:

Trying your best to jump through those fiery hoops again SAM?

You know well, that without the ways and example of Mohammed shown in the Sahih hadiths, Muslims remain impotent in their faith.

And btw,Abraham submitted to the God of the Bible, not Allah, whose laws rest on love of God and neighbour in equal measure, the same laws which Jesus submitted to, and taught to live by.

No Muslim can live by the laws of the Bible God, because a Muslim must live by Allah's laws, which command Muslims to have neither love nor fellowship with Non Muslims, as they are designated as "enemies of Islam and its people", whom Allah has no love for, they must be fought against, to be brought into submission to Allah's laws, which is a direct violation of the Bible God's commands, putting Muslims in direct opposition to the very God they claim to believe in!

"Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,..."

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=60

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=64


Allah therefore cannot be the same divine entity Muslims have been led to believe.

No other prophet of the Bible commanded his followers to fight people to bring them to faith in Yahweh, only Mohammed did, which according to the God Mohammed claimed to represent, makes him a false prophet, and false prophets as Jesus warns, "deceive many"

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:48 am
by frankie
Fernando wrote:
frankie wrote:Seems abinaya has no answers to refute the questions asked, logic as always defeats the Muslims mind.
Give abinaya a chance - not everyone's used to having to shout over SAM's distractions.
So please do continue abinaya, we'd like to hear your opinions.


Fernando,

O.K. point taken.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:04 pm
by frankie
In the Six Pillars of Islam provided by Sam as his/her proof of the hadiths not being required to follow Islam, here is what is contained within the sixth pillar.

Would Sam or abinaya like to comment.

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/s ... rsiman.htm

"Testimony That Muhammed (saws) Is Allah's Messenger

And I bear witness that Muhammad is Allah's slave and messenger, may Allah's prayers be upon him and upon his people (Aal) and his companions and Allah's greetings (or peace) in abundance...

Meaning: I accept and believe in an absolute fashion that Muhammad is the slave of Allah and His messenger to all peoples of both men and jinn. He came as a bringer of glad tidings and a warner, a caller to Allah with His leave and a bright light of guidance. Thus, it is obligatory to believe him in each and every issue about which he informed us, whether past, present or future and to obey him in each and every order and forbiddance and to follow the law which he brought (Shari'ah) and his path (Sunnah).

The testimony to Muhammad's (saws) status of slave of Allah and messenger goes hand in hand with the testimony as to the oneness of Allah, one is of no use without the other. In so bearing witness, a believer acknowledges the perfect servitude of Muhammad (saws) to Allah Most High and the completeness and perfection of his message. In so doing, we acknowledge the complete example in the person of the Prophet (saws) and that his person, life and example far exceed every other created being in every aspect including the law, his devotion to Allah, his character, etc.

[There is for you in Allah's Messenger a good example for whoever hopes for Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much.] Al-Ahzab 21

Ibn Al-Qayyim said: Just as Muhammad (saws) was sent with the message intended for every responsible being in Allah's creation, likewise, his message was general and inclusive of all issues of life and religion both general principles and details. Just as no one is outside the scope of his message, likewise no ruling or judgement of which the nation has a need is outside the scope of his message or not explained fully by his message. Ibn Taimia said: The entire Din falls under the two testimonies since their meaning is that we worship none but Allah and that we obey his Messenger (saws). The entire religion of Islam consists of this: worship of Allah by obedience to His messenger. Every issue which is required or loved by Allah falls under obeying Allah and His messenger (saws)."

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:39 pm
by abinaya
I've said before, I do not ignore the hadith, I said I just rejected the stories thats does not make sense (for me), to become a mukmin required to believe only 6 pillars of Islam faith, no need to believe Aisha was married at 9 years old to become a mukmin (note : mukmin not muslim)

I think this case the same as Christian and bible, every Christian when asked if he believed the earth was flat (unless he the flat-earther) will certainly reject it. but we found at the Bible that the earth is flat, so I'm asking if by refusing the flat earth theory than you do not become a Christian ? Jesus said eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have (not about the flat earth)

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:22 pm
by manfred
abinaya wrote:I've said before, I do not ignore the hadith, I said I just rejected the stories thats does not make sense (for me), to become a mukmin required to believe only 6 pillars of Islam faith, no need to believe Aisha was married at 9 years old to become a mukmin (note : mukmin not muslim)

I think this case the same as Christian and bible, every Christian when asked if he believed the earth was flat (unless he the flat-earther) will certainly reject it. but we found at the Bible that the earth is flat, so I'm asking if by refusing the flat earth theory than you do not become a Christian ? Jesus said eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have (not about the flat earth)


OK, interesting point, and an honest answer. In effect you say any hadith you are not comfortable with you simply pretend is either false or does not exist. Here is the problem with that approach: will you not then in effect create your own Mohammed according to your own wishes? If you first decide what Mohammed SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT or done and then use ancient text for confirmation, ignoring anything that does not fit, do you actually believe in a REAL Mohammed and his ACTUAL teachings? Or do you really believe in an "ideal" Mohammed and the teachings as you would like them to be?

You mention the pillars of faith.... how do the scholars, who are the same scholars who tell us that the story about the gecko was true, get to collect and describe them?

You also correctly point out that for most of the bible the writers did really believe that the earth was flat. That is because they were real human being writing at a time long ago, when that was the normal idea. Christians do not believe the bible was literally written by God. You can learn lots of things from the bible, but cosmology is not one of those things. Here is the difference: Christians have no problems at all saying that the cosmology of the bible is wrong, but they don't need to suggest that somehow those passages are not there or fake or something.

I hope you don;t take this as any form of personal criticism, I merely try to tell you my thoughts... Obviously, even if you do actually say to me "so can I not believe in whatever Mohammed I want" I would completely agree.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:03 pm
by SAM
First of all you have to disprove the six pillars of faith to say that Islam is false.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:56 pm
by manfred
SAM wrote:First of all you have to disprove the six pillars of faith to say that Islam is false.



You cannot prove or disprove and opinion or belief, SAM but you can point at things that make a belief unreasonable.

In fact, if you can show that there is just one particular aspect is not tenable, then the whole edifice come down.

And we already have shown, many times, that the preservation of the Qur'an is not borne out in reality. Similarly we also many times went over the problems with predetermination.

Then, at least the version of the "pillars" we both quoted, have in themselves some oddities.... there is nothing specific about the Jinn, they get a sort of passing mention. Are you meant to believe in Jinn? But angels are presented in some detail, with many mentioned by name and in the function they have. But this is also for the most part not in the Qur'an, but comes from hadith. The same hadith that tell us about the gecko.

Why is is more reasonable to believe in two angels questioning the dead and hitting some of them with a hammer than believing that Mohammed disliked geckos? These two characters are specifically mentioned with their names even, Munkar and Nakir (the denier and the denied). There are listed in the second pilllar, "angels"... now, frankly, this tale is even more contrived and silly as the gecko story. So that one made it into being a pilllar. Why?

In fact few of the "pillars" are without problems.

But then the "I refuse to look" approach kicks in, right SAM?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:48 pm
by SAM
Islam denied the Christian claim that Jesus was crucified and Trinity,, based on the pillars of faith.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:00 pm
by manfred
SAM, even these topics we discussed several times. As I said, here I am less concerned with the "articles of faith" just as they are in Islam, I am more interested in looking at the foundations they rest on. Less of the "what", more of a "why".

I mentioned the two angels at the grave, and the origins of that story. The writer of the article on the "pillars of faith" we both looked at sees this as a fundamental belief in Islam, as he specifically talks about them. The origin of this story is in the hadith, and, frankly, if anything is rather a tall tale, to put it politely... angels questioning the dead and hitting them with a hammer... interestingly, while the story of the gecko is sahih, the story regarding the names of the angels at the grave is only hasan, and yet at least this proponent of the six pillars sees this one as important. (However other hadith referring to them are sahih)

So when we try to find the foundations of these pillars, eventually we find hadith. The hadith you reject sometimes and accept at another.

Is this not simply picking and choosing, SAM?

Have a look at the story SAM, and tell me what you make of it:

Narrated by Anas

The Prophet said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their foot steps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you use to say about this man, Muhammad ? He will say: I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' " The Prophet added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns.".

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 422
https://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_2_23.php

And here is the hasan one, mentioning the names:

Abu Hurairah narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "When the deceased - or he said when one of you - is buried, two angels, black and blue (eyed_ come to him. One of them is called Al-Munkar, and the other An-Nakir. They say: 'What did you used to say about this man?' So he says what he was saying (before death) 'He is Allah's slave and His Messenger. I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is His slave and His Messenger.' So they say: 'We knew that you would say this.' Then his grave is expanded to seventy by seventy cubits, then it is illuminated for him. Then it is said to him: 'Sleep.' So he said: 'Can I return to my family to inform them?' They say: 'Sleep as a newlywed, whom none awakens but the dearest of his family.' Until Allah resurrects him from his resting place.""If he was a hypocrite he would say: 'I heard people saying something, so I said the same; I do not know.' So they said: 'We knew you would say that.' So the earth is told: 'Constrict him.' So it constricts around him, squeezing his ribs together. He continues being punished like that until Allah resurrects him from his resting place."


https://www.sunnah.com/urn/710910

While there are some similarities, there are also a number of differences.... It seems that the author of our version of the pillars prefers this one, even though classed as less reliable than the one from Bukhari...

To me these two hadith together are quite telling, not about what happens after death, but about Mohammed... He is much like many Arab story tellers. As he re-tells his stories to different people, details change, some things are left out here and there, others are embellished. The question is, is he a man you can trust to give you religious teachings?

Would not not agree that this "angel" pillar is starting to look decidedly shaky?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:10 am
by SAM
Belief (Iman) in Islam is the first foundation of the religion.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:50 am
by manfred
Seriously? So now all of a sudden you abandon these pillars you spoke of earlier as so important quite so readily? The island you are sitting is really getting very small indeed. What will you do if you run out of things to retreat to? Leave the forum for a couple of months and return pretending nothing happened?

"Belief" your say... tell me then belief in what exactly? And on what basis?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:47 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:Seriously? So now all of a sudden you abandon these pillars you spoke of earlier as so important quite so readily? The island you are sitting is really getting very small indeed. What will you do if you run out of things to retreat to? Leave the forum for a couple of months and return pretending nothing happened?

"Belief" your say... tell me then belief in what exactly? And on what basis?[\

manfred wrote:SAM, even these topics we discussed several times. As I said, here I am less concerned with the "articles of faith" just as they are in Islam, I am more interested in looking at the foundations they rest on. Less of the "what", more of a "why".

I mentioned the two angels at the grave, and the origins of that story. The writer of the article on the "pillars of faith" we both looked at sees this as a fundamental belief in Islam, as he specifically talks about them. The origin of this story is in the hadith, and, frankly, if anything is rather a tall tale, to put it politely... angels questioning the dead and hitting them with a hammer... interestingly, while the story of the gecko is sahih, the story regarding the names of the angels at the grave is only hasan, and yet at least this proponent of the six pillars sees this one as important. (However other hadith referring to them are sahih)

So when we try to find the foundations of these pillars, eventually we find hadith. The hadith you reject sometimes and accept at another.

Is this not simply picking and choosing, SAM?

Have a look at the story SAM, and tell me what you make of it:

Narrated by Anas

The Prophet said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their foot steps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you use to say about this man, Muhammad ? He will say: I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' " The Prophet added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns.".

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 23, Number 422
https://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_2_23.php

And here is the hasan one, mentioning the names:

Abu Hurairah narrated that:
The Messenger of Allah said: "When the deceased - or he said when one of you - is buried, two angels, black and blue (eyed_ come to him. One of them is called Al-Munkar, and the other An-Nakir. They say: 'What did you used to say about this man?' So he says what he was saying (before death) 'He is Allah's slave and His Messenger. I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is His slave and His Messenger.' So they say: 'We knew that you would say this.' Then his grave is expanded to seventy by seventy cubits, then it is illuminated for him. Then it is said to him: 'Sleep.' So he said: 'Can I return to my family to inform them?' They say: 'Sleep as a newlywed, whom none awakens but the dearest of his family.' Until Allah resurrects him from his resting place.""If he was a hypocrite he would say: 'I heard people saying something, so I said the same; I do not know.' So they said: 'We knew you would say that.' So the earth is told: 'Constrict him.' So it constricts around him, squeezing his ribs together. He continues being punished like that until Allah resurrects him from his resting place."


https://www.sunnah.com/urn/710910

While there are some similarities, there are also a number of differences.... It seems that the author of our version of the pillars prefers this one, even though classed as less reliable than the one from Bukhari...

To me these two hadith together are quite telling, not about what happens after death, but about Mohammed... He is much like many Arab story tellers. As he re-tells his stories to different people, details change, some things are left out here and there, others are embellished. The question is, is he a man you can trust to give you religious teachings?

Would not not agree that this "angel" pillar is starting to look decidedly shaky?
Unimportant.... Not compulsory to know it

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:46 am
by manfred
Who is telling you what you are allowed to know SAM? Who decides for you what is important and what is not?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:57 am
by manfred
SAM wrote:Belief (Iman) in Islam is the first foundation of the religion.


I see you added "in Islam" to your reply ... I doubt it makes things any better.

And as you are now retreating from the idea that these pillars of faith are what Muslims should believe, what is it that defines Islam to you?

You sound as if in effect you do believe the tale of the two angels, in a way... Never mind what a person did in his life, if he can only pay lip service to a label called "Islam" and say Mohammed was a"prophet", everything will be just fine. It does not even matter if you cannot say exactly what "Islam" or "prophet" really is. The angels do not ask if you were a mass murderer, or if helped the poor... they only ask one thing... your nominal religion, and your view on Mohammed.

Is your Islam and your Mohammed the same as your neighbours?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:26 am
by SAM
I've already told you that the Six Pillars of Faith (Iman), form an important basis for the foundation of Islamic belief system. And you need to disprove the six pillars of faith (Iman) to say that Islam is false.

As I always say, you still have a long way to understand Islam and need to learn more about the deeper teachings of Islam.

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:47 am
by manfred
Sam your flustering does not work, it never really does. You are just repeating what we already sorted out. I analysed one specific aspect of those pillars, as an example, and have shown you on what it is based. We can repeat the exercise for all the others and look at the foundations upon which they stand, and we will find the same thing. A little Qur'an here and there, but mostly hadith or scholar interpretation.

There are no "deeper" teachings in Islam. You cannot even present the BASIC teachings without problems. That is your little game you have played for years... Whenever you are stuck in effect your only argument is "you are stupid".

Saying the basis of Islam is to believe in Islam is saying nothing at all about what Islam is. "The basics about Mathematics is Mathematics" ... does that tell you very much?

Re: some lesser known teachings of Islam...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:57 am
by SAM
You’re entitled to your opinion.