Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
IslamicReplies
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by IslamicReplies »

test
Last edited by IslamicReplies on Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yeezevee
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by yeezevee »

welcome to ffi dear IslamicReplies., You are writing to that fellow debunkar but that fellow left the town long back., he went to learn some filth from Bible. he is more interested in Bible, specially OT now a days., Any way I am glad to see your point in your post, you wrote
this clearly tells us that a person who commits pre-martial sex (and if proven with 4 witnesses as Surah 24 says)
I wonder about those 4 witnesses ., You seem to be good in Arabic language., I wonder How you translate/understand that zina verse in Quran with reference that 4 witnesses.,

So the question on that is
Are these witnesses Male or Female or Both? and why? Please use your Arabic background

And again welcome to FFI

with best regards
yeezeee

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

IslamicReplies wrote:"Debunker," you said:

"Actually, now I believe that there's a BIG contradiction between Quran and Hadith when it comes to the punishment for adulterers. Well, it's not surprising as Hadith contradicts itself and the Quran on numerous many issues.

Anyway, here's my explanation in points:

1- The Arabic word for both Adultery and Fornication is "ZENA".
2- Verse 24:2 explains the punishment for those who commit "ZENA". (100 flogs).
3- Verse 24:4 explains how "ZENA" can be proven (4 witnesses), and how those who accuse women of "ZENA" without proof (4 witnesses) should be punished (the accuser gets 80 flogs).
4- HOWEVER, Verses 24:6-9 explain if a man accuses his wife of "ZENA" without proof (4 witnesses) then he is NOT to be punished (like the case in 24:4) but rather, the wife can avoid the punishment* by swearing in the name of God that she's innocent (her word against his)."


Firstly, the Arabic word used in Surah 24:6 is "azwaja," http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary ... j#(24:6:3)

which means:

"Pairs." It can also mean "spouses." The Arabic term comes from the root letters "Zay-Waw-Jiim" which means:

"to couple/join/pair/unite/wed, marriage, a pair, a fellow or like, spouse."

http://www.studyquran.co.uk/28_ZAY.htm

It does NOT refer specifically to a certain gender. You then said:


"The word used in the Quran to describe the 100 flogs in 24:2 was عذاب "AZAB" which is translated to punishment. The same word was also used in 24:8. So does the word عذاب "AZAB" here means a punishment of flogging or a punishment of death? Speaking within the context of these verses, it's obviously the punishment of flogging."


Actually, that is wrong because in Surah 24:2, the Arabic word used is (فَٱجْلِدُوهُم)
source: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary ... d#(24:2:3)

This comes from the root "Jiim-Lam-Dal" which means:

"To hit/hurt/beat the skin, to strike, flog with a whip, fall down, to compel, to be hardy/strong/sturdy, to be enduring or patient, to contend with someone, constrain/compel/necessitate."

source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/10_JIIM.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In contrast, the Arabic word used is Surah 24:8 is (ٱلْعَذَاب)
source: http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary ... b#(24:8:3)

This comes from the root: "Ayn-Thal-Ba" which means:

"chastisement, castigate, punishment, torture, torment, retribution, abstain/desist, relinquish, quit.adhb - sweet (usually water), e.g. 25:53, 35:12."

source: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/2_AYN.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Arabic word in Surah 24:8 doesn't specifically mean flogging as I have shown. The term "zina" can mean "adultery" as well as "fornication." The punishment for someone who commits pre martial sex is lashes. But, the punishment for someone who commits adultery is lashes as well as death penalty. All cases of adultery are fornication (zina), but not all fornication (zina) are cases of adultery. This is because pre maratial sex is a case of zina, but not a case of adultery.

The Hadiths give additional information regarding the punishment of an adulterer,which NOT contradict the Quran. If the Quran would have said the ONLY punishment for someone who commits zina is flogging, then this would contradict the Hadiths.The Hadiths say:

Sahih Muslim, Book 17, Number 4191:
"Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death."

This clearly tells us that a person who commits pre-martial sex (and if proven with 4 witnesses as Surah 24 says) then that person gets 100 lashes and banishment for one year. However, if someone commits adultery (and if proven with 4 witnesses) the punishment is 100 lashes and stoning to death.

As I said, IF the Quran would have said the ONLY punishment for a fornicator was flogging to death, then it would contradict the above Hadith. Hadiths give additional information, but does not contradict Quran here.



You said:
"In fact, Hadith contradicts itself A LOT, even within the same Book of Hadith (e.g. many Bukhari Hadiths contradict each other).

Well, it is shocking, nevertheless, that all these years I thought that the Quran ordered the killing of adulterers when it really didn't. So, screw ALL the Hadith that say the punishment for adulterers is death. Now I know it isn't."


FALSE, because the definition of a contradiction is 2 or more things opposing that cannot tale place simultaneously. In this case, when the Quran says the punishment for a person who commits zina is flogging, it does not say the ONLY punishment is flogging. Had it said that, then it would contradict the Hadiths. It is not a contradiction, but a contradistinction. For example, the statement that: "Person A is in this room," does NOT contradict the statement that "Person B is in this room." It would contradict the statement that "ONLY Person A is in this room."

Moreover, scholars have over 100 ways to refute the alleged contradictions in the authentic Hadiths. Just because things may appear to contradict in the Hadiths does NOT mean they do. Moreover, if you want to reject the Hadiths, that means according to your criteria, you cannot pray, do wudu, etc because the Quran gives no instructions on how to pray or to do wudu.

Obviously you dont know what the hell you are talking about, you are nothing but another Mushrik who shirk Allah law with some man made crap from your rubbish books of man made hadith

You should be ashamed of yourself, confused and Mushrik Muslim

Salam

IslamicReplies
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by IslamicReplies »

test2
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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

IslamicReplies wrote:
Obviously you dont know what the hell you are talking about, you are nothing but another Mushrik who shirk Allah law with some man made crap from your rubbish books of man made hadith

You should be ashamed of yourself, confused and Mushrik Muslim

Salam
You refuted nothing at all, because it seems your all lip and no proof. You "Quranists" are the ones who should be ashamed of yourself, for claiming to be a Muslim, then indirectly rejecting the compulsary teachings of Islam. Any Quranist would do this, because you people only have the Quran to go on. The Quran says NOTHING about how to pray, shortening of the prayers when you travelling, rulings of wudu, how much zakah to give, etc.

But wait a minute. You Quranists pray, do wudu, etc... but you reject the authentic Hadiths. It doesn't work like that. You either reject the authentic Hadiths and don't pray, offer wudu, etc or you either believe in the authentic Hadiths and then pray, offer wudu, etc. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Moreover, if you Quranists solidly belief in ONLY the Quran and refer to literally nothing else, then I can bring contradictions and inconsistencies in the Quran, in which Quranists (according to his/her criteria) would NOT be able to solve, without referring to the authentic Hadiths and historical background from Hadiths. So, the real "Mushriks" are people like you, who lack knowledge of Islam, and then make claims with no proof.
So tell me you clear cut Mushrik bound to hell:

What is half the punishment of stoning to death?

Read this you clear cut Mushrik, maybe you will give heed and follow the straight path of your Lord instead of the rubbush you are following in your man made books of crap hadith, and btw, you need to take it to your associates so they spin around before shoving their Mushrik arses in the dunbest rubbish bin in the universe:

Stoning half the adulterer and adultereress

Salam all

This is a mother of all slams discovered by one of my dear Egyptian friends (Hany Mohsen); it happened yesterday as we were pondering upon the Quran together over skype. It is slam dunking Al-Mushrikoon from among the confused Muslims and worth adding to my slam dunk show, this is how I put it on facebook:
-----------------------
Salam all

Last year I have written a note titled as follow:

الله لا يشرك في حكمه احدا. I.e. Allah does not take partners for His judgement from ANYONE.

You can read it on the following link: Click here

In which I posted the following verse:

قُلِ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا لَبِثُوا ۖ لَهُ غَيْبُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَبْصِرْ بِهِ وَأَسْمِعْ ۚ مَا لَهُمْ مِنْ دُونِهِ مِنْ وَلِيٍّ وَلَا يُشْرِكُ فِي حُكْمِهِ أَحَدًا (26)

Say: Allah knows best how long they stayed; to Him is the unknown of the heavens and the earth; how Seeing is He and how Hearing. They do not have other than Him any guardian, and He does not share His judgment with anyone.
[Al Quran ; 18:26]

Then I explained an important information in the above verse as stated below:

ولا يشرك في حكمه احدا , and He does not share His judgment with anyone.

I.e. الله لا يشرك في حكمه احدا , Allah does not take partners for His judgement from ANYONE


Then I explained that the word احدا , i.e. anyone in the above verse should cover EVERYONE you can imagine, then I gave you some examples which the word should cover:

Muhammed, Isa, Musa, Ibrahim, Bukhari, your mosque Imam, your Mufti, your Mullah, your Sheikh, you and certainly me.

Then I explained for the zillion and one time : حكم الله على الزانى و الزانية , i.e. The judgement of Allah concerning the adulterer and adultereress, which is stated clearly in the Quran as shown below:

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِنْهُمَا مِائَةَ جَلْدَةٍ ۖ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۖ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (2)

The woman and the man who commit adultery, lash each of them a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let their torture be witnessed by a group of the believers.
[Al Quran ; 24:2]

But the whole world knows now that Al-Mushrikoon from among the Muslims are not happy with the above clear law from Allah; Al-Mushrikoon from among اهل السنة و الجماعة Ahl Al-Sunnah wa Jamaa’a, I mean اهل السنة و الشرك, Ahl Al-Sunnah wa Al-Shirk, are telling us that Allah took a partner for His judgment from among the humans, i.e. they are telling us that: الله اشرك فى حكمه احدا, i.e. that Allah took a human as a partner for His judgement .

They are telling us that Quran verse 24:2 only covers any Zani and Zania from among the unmarried men and women, i.e. it only covers half the judgment. Consequently they made a partner to Allah to create the second half of the judgment which should cover any Zani and Zania from among the married men and women

They are telling us that, for any Zani and Zania from among the married men and women, the punishment is to kill them by stoning as stated by someone or a few. Something that was never stated in the Quran. Their actions clearly means that they committed shirk by taking half judgment for adultery from Allah, WHILE taking the other half from a human, at the same time.

Let me assume for a moment that they are right; in this case it will be evident that those Mushrikoon from among the Muslims have created a huge and unsolveable contradiction in the judgment of Allah as follow:

- We know well that Zina (adultery) is Fahisha as seen below:

وَلَا تَقْرَبُوا الزِّنَا ۖ إِنَّهُ كَانَ فَاحِشَةً وَسَاءَ سَبِيلًا (32)

And do not go near adultery; indeed, it is ever an indecency and an evil way.
[Al Quran ; 17:32]

- We also know that any women from among ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. i.e. from what our oaths possess who commits adultery, should be punished with HALF the punishment of a free woman. Here is the verse from Quran telling us what to do with a MARRIED woman from ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. from what your oaths possess, if she commits adultery:

وَمَن لَّمْ يَسْتَطِعْ مِنكُمْ طَوْلاً أَن يَنكِحَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ فَمِن مِّا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُم مِّن فَتَيَاتِكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِكُمْ بَعْضُكُم مِّن بَعْضٍ فَانكِحُوهُنَّ بِإِذْنِ أَهْلِهِنَّ وَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ مُحْصَنَاتٍ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحَاتٍ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ فَإِذَا أُحْصِنَّ فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ خَشِيَ الْعَنَتَ مِنْكُمْ وَأَن تَصْبِرُواْ خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (25)

And whoever among you cannot afford to marry the protected and believing women, then (marry) of those whom your oaths possess from among your believing young women. And Allah is most Knowing of your oaths between yourselves; so marry them with the permission of their families, and give them their rewards lawfully if they seek protection (for themselves) not fornicating or receiving paramours. And if they protect themselves (through marriage) then commit an indecency, then upon them is half the torture which should be upon the protected women. That is for one who fears affliction from among you. And if you are patient, it is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[Al Quran ; 4:25]

Clearly, the verse above is talking about a married woman from ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. what your oaths possess, who commits adultery, see the following key sentences:

ومن لم يستطع منكم طولا ان ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات فمن ما ملكت ايمانكم من فتياتكم المؤمنات

I.e. And whoever among you cannot afford to marry the protected and believing women, then (marry) of those whom your oaths possess from among your believing young women. And that should be after taking the permission of their parents:

فانكحوهن باذن اهلهن واتوهن اجورهن بالمعروف

I.e. so marry them with the permission of their families, and give them their rewards lawfully

But the same verse is telling us that if anyone of those married women from ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. from what our oaths possess commits adultery, we should punish her with HALF the punishment of a free married woman:

فاذا احصن فان اتين بفاحشة فعليهن نصف ما علي المحصنات من العذاب

i.e. And if they protect themselves (through marriage) then commit an indecency, then upon them is half the torture which should be upon the protected women.

Now, the punishment for any Zania (adultereress) from among free women should be stoning her to death according to Al-Mushrikoon from among the Muslims.

So my dear friend Hany Mohsen and myself ask those dumb bums from among Al-Mushrikoon:

What is the punishment of an adultereress from among ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. from among what our oaths possess?

They should answer that it should be half the punishment of an adultereress from among the free women.

Which is certainly the right answer; so we ask them again, what is half the punishment of stoning a married woman to death, who committed adultery, ?

Is it, to stone her to half death?

Or

Is it, to stone half of her to death?

Of course the above question can never be answered by anyone from among those esteemed friend Mushrikoon, even by the hard core Mushriks from among them.

This mother of all slams by my dear friend Hany Mohsen should send all those Mushrikoon and their followers to the dumbest rubbish bin on the planet; possibly they might give head and listen to Allah words alone and realize that الله لا يشرك في حكمه احدا, i.e. Allah does not take partners for His judgement from ANYONE, otherwise we must have a clear cut contradiction in the judgment of Allah.

Now, if we take the judgment of Allah alone without shirking it with man made judgment, we should have no problem, because:

According to Allah alone, an adultereress from the free/married or free/unmarried women should be lashed 100 lashes in public.

Consequently , an adultereress from among the married women of ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. from what our oaths possess. or the unmarried women of ما ملكت ايماننا, i.e. from what our oaths possess, should be lashed 50 lashes in public.

What a mother of all slams by my dear friend Hany Mohsen. Irrefutable, and my sincere thanks to him. May Allah bless him for that.

Let’s see how Al-Mushrikoon will tap dance and spin around trying hard to find an excuse for the above contradiction they created by their own shirk through their submission to Iblis.

I seek refuge in Allah; and indeed, His Quran:

لَا يَأْتِيهِ الْبَاطِلُ مِنْ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلَا مِنْ خَلْفِهِ ۖ تَنْزِيلٌ مِنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ (42)

Falsehood cannot come to it from before it nor from behind it; descended from a (Lord Who is) Wise and Praised.
[Al Quran ; 41:42]

And here is the mother of all slams:

Image

Salam

yeezevee
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by yeezevee »

AhmedBahgat you are repeating the same nonsense which you did before on this. Still you don't come out to cleanly., Why run around circles?? Why don't you just say this


" People have mistranslated and misunderstood that verse in Quran "THERE IS NO STONING OF ANYONE IN QURAN""


Can't you write those words instead of acting like dog tail??

So you are replacing public stoning with public lashing; Would you consider that as word of Allah?? God??

You are a silly guy..

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

U stupid yekee

My argument against al mushrikoon is not about stoning in quran or not

My argument is simply stoning cannot be a law in all islamic shariah

Cosequently al mushrikoon have been exposed

Dismiss urself yekee, this is not for u, it is for al mushrikoon

yeezevee
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by yeezevee »

U stupid yekee

My argument against al mushrikoon is not about stoning in quran or not

My argument is simply stoning cannot be a law in all islamic shariah

Cosequently al mushrikoon have been exposed

Dismiss urself yekee, this is not for u, it is for al mushrikoon
What the hell are you talking?? you mean "stoning cannot be a law in all islamic shariah" but stoning is O.K IN SOME islamic shariah??

Well.. yes I am a stupid to write to guys like you dear Ahmed., I write these responses with the hope one day some fellows like you will open their eyes and find the faults with-in.. Yes I am stupid for that and I became stupid willingly..

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Cassie
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by Cassie »

Stoning, lashing, cutting off hands, beheading - you Muslims are savages. Wise up, people. This is the 21st century. It's not the 7th century any more.

sum
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by sum »

There are muslims who think that forced sex(rape) is legal and Islamic.

Here is what HEDAYA (ref. 11, p. 141) writes:

One can enjoy a wife by force

But not if she be refractory.—If a wife be disobedient or refractory and go abroad without her husband’s consent, she is not entitled to any support from him, until she return and make submission, because the rejection of the matrimonial restraint in this instance originates with her; but when she returns home, she is then subject to it, for which reason she again becomes entitled to her support as before. It is otherwise where a woman, residing in the house of her husband, refuses to admit him to the conjugal embrace, as she is entitled to maintenance, notwithstanding her opposition, because being then in his power, he may, if he please, enjoy her by force.


Are the Hanafis true muslims or not? This is their religious Islamic ruling on the matter and must have been derived from either the Koran or ahadith or both.

sum

piscohot
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by piscohot »

I asked a simple question many times and muslims would pretend they did not see the question.

Muslims think that women prisoners willingly lie down and spread their legs for the muslim soldiers who just killed their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons.

Question: Would muslimahs willingly have sex with the person who murdered her family?

If you know that they won't, what make you muslims think other women are any different?

braindeads
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

sum wrote:There are muslims who think that forced sex(rape) is legal and Islamic.

Here is what HEDAYA (ref. 11, p. 141) writes:



Doccy, you forgot a link to this man made rubbish book

if you are going to quote from man made books, you must post a link to it

sum
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by sum »

Hello my very good friend, AhmedBahgat

The reference is in the quote. It is the Hanafi ruling on forced sex. Please Google "Hedaya". Are the Hanafi true muslims?

sum

yeezevee
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by yeezevee »

http://www.karamah.org/docs/Zina_article_Final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.maktabah.org/index.php/compo ... -fiqh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islaminireland.com/documents ... Sunnah.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

sum wrote:Hello my very good friend, AhmedBahgat

The reference is in the quote. It is the Hanafi ruling on forced sex. Please Google "Hedaya". Are the Hanafi true muslims?

sum
BS doccy, show me the bloody crap book u brought ur crap from, don't be a conman doccy

sum
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by sum »

Hello my "Doubting Thomas" friend, AhmedBahgat

Hedaya is the Islamic law book used by the barristers of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, England, Ireland....

Its stipulations are codified Islamic laws. It is the law manual of Hanafi sect of Islam. Hanafi sect dominates India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and Afghanistan. Ask any lawyer/imam and he will tell you the authenticity of Hedaya.

In short, Hedaya is the Islamic law book used in the court procedures.

Here is the complete reference.

Hamilton, Charles. Hedaya. Translated in English in 1870 from the Persian version. Reprinted by Kitab Bhavan, 1784 Kalan Mahal, Daraya Ganj, New Delhi, 1994.


I hope that this helps. Please buy a copy to expand your knowledge of current Hanafi Islamic law. Are Hanafi muslims true muslims?

sum

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The Cat
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Re: Does Quran Sanction Rape?

Post by The Cat »

sum wrote:Are Hanafi muslims true muslims?
Not at all, they are Muhammadans since Allah's Shariah is clearly defined in the Koran, so not for anyone to hijack it.
viewtopic.php?p=99434#p99434" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=100835#p100835" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=98118#p98118" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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