Error Free Quran

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
Roky
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Error Free Quran

Post by Roky »

There have been much discussion that the Quran contains many scientific errors. Ali Sina refuted the claims that Zakir Naik made about Quran in his debate with William Campbell, and published his refutation as a PDF book named Debunking the Myth of Science in the Quran. Wikiislam is another good place to find scientific errancy in the Quran.
If there are scientific errors in the Quran, then there are scientific errors in the Quran. If there are not, then there are not. The issue should have settled by now. There was error in Newtonian physics, Einstein showed us where Newton was wrong, and the issue is settled. Now no one comes forward and tries to prove Newton right.
But the eternal debate between the critics and the apologists of Islam just rages on. Why is that?
I think the reason is that there are no scientific errors in Quran. By error I mean unequivocal, doubtless, concrete error.
Ali Sina claimed that the descriptions of water cycle, the thunder and the rain, the course of the sun and the moon in the Quran that the apologists tout as scientific miracles are natural phenomena that are observable to anyone. One has to agree.
But then again, it is almost impossible to look at the sun and observe that the sun that rises, goes through the sky, and sets is actually still, it is the earth that is moving. So, consider the following verse – Do the unbelievers not contemplate the sun? It is we that hath made the sun a glorious lamp in the sky. It is we that hath made the sun swim around the earth, and bring out the dawn by its light. If we wanted we could have made it stand still. Verily, Allah hath power over all things. So, praise your lord and call them to Islam with reasonable persuasion.
There, you have your unequivocal, doubtless, concrete error.
It is impossible to look at the moon at night and observe that the moon’s light comes from the sun. After all, at night the sun is nowhere observable in the sky. So, consider the following verse – Do the unbelievers not contemplate how we hath made the moon a source of serene light by which they find direction and travel at night? Will they still be ungrateful to their lord? So, offer gratitude to your lord for his blessings, and call them to Islam with reasonable persuasion.
There, you have two unequivocal, doubtless, concrete errors. But, where the possibility was most, Quran never for once makes such a blunder.
Can anyone explain that?
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manfred
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by manfred »

Hello Roky and welcome to our board.

Objectively there are a great many errors in the Qur'an, some factual or scientific, some historical, some internal contradictions and more.

And you are right that discussing any of these with a Muslim is rarely fruitful. Muslims work on the assumption that BECAUSE the Qur'an is authored by an all-powerful and an all knowing being there CANNOT be any errors. The "because" part is never questioned. So anyone suggesting there may be any error is either malicious or stupid or both.

So, when any of these errors come up, their are "explained" away often in the most far-fetched ridiculous fashion. The Qur'an says loud and clear, for example, that sperm comes from somewhere in between the backbone and the ribs., which is the chest cavity. This quite silly idea will be defended to the hilt, with all sorts of crazy arguments, mostly based on language, hoping the other person does not know any Arabic, such as saying it does not say backbone, chest nor even "between"...

In other words the problem is the Muslims complete unwillingness to even think there may be any kind of error in that book. After all, Allah wrote it, we know that because it says so. It is that basic. There is a sort of missing chip in the logic circuit.
"Divine authorship" => "no errors" to most people would suggest "error found"=> "no divine authorship". To a Muslim that second part goes like this:

"error found"=> "you made a mistake or you are malicious" => "no errors" <= "divine authorship"


The notion of circular reasoning simply does not occur to a Muslim, as indeed several other logical fallacies.
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Mughal
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, in my view there are no errors in the text of the quran as far as I know. I have been studying the text of the quran for years.

Before anyone could claim there are any concrete errors in the quran one has to know the actual message of the quran. To know the actual message of the quran one has to make sense of its text. To make sense of its text one has to know origin of words and how words got their meanings. In other words one has to know the way to make sense of the text of the quran.

All this is not known by most of the people in the world therefore not being able to make proper sense of the quran is sufficient proof that mankind yet have a very long way to go before they could actually talk about the quran sensibly.

All this is a problem because human beings have lead each other away from the knowledge they were supposed to learn and have fallen into trap of ignorance in a big way. Once this mess is sorted out by someone things will become easier. So we need to wait till people produce something which can make things easy for them.

To begin with people have very wrong concepts about God. These wrong concepts in minds of people make people expects wrong things of God. So when those things which people expect from God do not happen the way they expect they get disappointed with concept of God itself. This is how one wrong thing leads them to another wrong thing about God.

Book of God is not for programming people fully but for helping people to program themselves ie it is an interactive thing. This is why none of us can read a book as soon as we are born rather we prepare ourselves for this purpose. The same needs to be done in case of a book from God. The question is have we prepared ourselves for proper understanding of message of God? If we have then there is a good chance that we will get the sense in time but if we have not then it is not going to happen.

For better understanding of where I am coming from one has to read what I have explained about deen of islam in my other posts. The main question is, what is original human language, how did people start communicating with each other using speech, writing and reading? Once we come to know these things then we will come to realise how language actually works. We will also come to know why the quran is the way it is in a language that is used by God.

regards and all the best.
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manfred
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by manfred »

Roky, exhibit A, supporting my case: Mughal. He went further than most, he has actually completely re-written the Qur'an to his own liking, and he claims nobody ever understood this text ever before him.

But the round-about he is riding on is much the same. There is no error in the Qur'an because it is from Allah, because the Qur'an says it is. Somehow he does not find it at all strange that a book that also says about itself that it is easy to understand has been completely misread for 1400 years, by everybody. When it says "kill the unbeliever" it really means give him a big bear hug and a cup of hot chocolate, or something like that. And when it comes to errors, they cannot be because the may not be, so the only answer is you are not understanding what the text says. Well, to me the text really is clear enough....
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kaimana1
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by kaimana1 »

Mughal wrote:Dear friends, in my view there are no errors in the text of the quran as far as I know. I have been studying the text of the quran for years.

Before anyone could claim there are any concrete errors in the quran one has to know the actual message of the quran. To know the actual message of the quran one has to make sense of its text. To make sense of its text one has to know origin of words and how words got their meanings. In other words one has to know the way to make sense of the text of the quran.

All this is not known by most of the people in the world therefore not being able to make proper sense of the quran is sufficient proof that mankind yet have a very long way to go before they could actually talk about the quran sensibly.

All this is a problem because human beings have lead each other away from the knowledge they were supposed to learn and have fallen into trap of ignorance in a big way. Once this mess is sorted out by someone things will become easier. So we need to wait till people produce something which can make things easy for them.

To begin with people have very wrong concepts about God. These wrong concepts in minds of people make people expects wrong things of God. So when those things which people expect from God do not happen the way they expect they get disappointed with concept of God itself. This is how one wrong thing leads them to another wrong thing about God.

Book of God is not for programming people fully but for helping people to program themselves ie it is an interactive thing. This is why none of us can read a book as soon as we are born rather we prepare ourselves for this purpose. The same needs to be done in case of a book from God. The question is have we prepared ourselves for proper understanding of message of God? If we have then there is a good chance that we will get the sense in time but if we have not then it is not going to happen.

For better understanding of where I am coming from one has to read what I have explained about deen of islam in my other posts. The main question is, what is original human language, how did people start communicating with each other using speech, writing and reading? Once we come to know these things then we will come to realise how language actually works. We will also come to know why the quran is the way it is in a language that is used by God.

regards and all the best.

Well mughal, you have done many mental gymnastics to come up with these conclusions...what happened to you mughal did you find a muslim gf or something? and im not trying to be mean
:)
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Hombre
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Hombre »

to really understand the Quran, and how it came about - first, we are told, one MUST accept anything and everything written there before reading a single word in it. Then, read it. A classic case of twisted, screwed up logic and cognisant reasoning.

The very reason for which the whole institution of Islam is bankrupt. What else can one say about any religion which devours its own followers. Everything which we see today in Islam, related to socio-political discourse, is exactly the methods how Muhammd had laid out for his followers. Muslim do not follow the words of God, nor any rational manner - they follow this man's words, acts and deeds. Muhammad is the one who used violence to convince others - so his followers today.

Islam is stuck in 7th century wasteland of intellectual and civilised discourse.
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Hombre
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Hombre »

kaimana1 wrote:Well mughal, you have done many mental gymnastics to come up with these conclusions...what happened to you mughal did you find a Muslim gf or something? and im not trying to be mean
:)
It is the classic case of brain wash. It is pity that with his impeccable intellect, our friend mhghal wastes it on nonsense and intellectual foot dancing.

Had he only would see thing as we - the infidels see them, we would have peace on earth.
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Hombre
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Hombre »

roky
to answer your question, best to download Ali Sina 128 page book, where he undercuts arguments by one of Islam most outspoken "magician" named Dr Naik.

Here is the link to both the debate between Naik & Dr Campbell. Other Ali Sina reply. The actual debate is on several places on youtube .


http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/Nai ... lintro.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

good luck
Roky
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Roky »

I thank manfred (the moderator) for approving my post.
Also, I thank manfred, Mughal, Hombre. You took your precious time and tried to explain things to me at length. There may be a couple of points that I don’t agree with, but you people put a lot of effort and thought in your replies.
I noticed a tone of sarcasm and insult in one or two posts that I didn’t appreciate. Just as FaithFreedom states in the masthead, We oppose Islam, not Muslims. We are against hate, not faith. We are all here to seek the truth, not attack each others views and opinions. We must realize, that a muslim loves and values his religion, and instead of illuminating him with the truth, when we mock and insult him, we do more damage than good. If we cooperate and reach out our kind and caring hand to each other, we will reach the truth and only the truth will set us free.
Jesus said, 'Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.' Luke 6:38. I don’t know how to repay you people who have given me so much. I pray to God that he repays you with his kind blessing a thousand times you have given me.
Gook luck, and God bless us all.
With good wishes,
Roky
frankie
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:Dear friends, in my view there are no errors in the text of the quran as far as I know. I have been studying the text of the quran for years.

Before anyone could claim there are any concrete errors in the quran one has to know the actual message of the quran. To know the actual message of the quran one has to make sense of its text. To make sense of its text one has to know origin of words and how words got their meanings. In other words one has to know the way to make sense of the text of the quran.

All this is not known by most of the people in the world therefore not being able to make proper sense of the quran is sufficient proof that mankind yet have a very long way to go before they could actually talk about the quran sensibly.

All this is a problem because human beings have lead each other away from the knowledge they were supposed to learn and have fallen into trap of ignorance in a big way. Once this mess is sorted out by someone things will become easier. So we need to wait till people produce something which can make things easy for them.

To begin with people have very wrong concepts about God. These wrong concepts in minds of people make people expects wrong things of God. So when those things which people expect from God do not happen the way they expect they get disappointed with concept of God itself. This is how one wrong thing leads them to another wrong thing about God.

Book of God is not for programming people fully but for helping people to program themselves ie it is an interactive thing. This is why none of us can read a book as soon as we are born rather we prepare ourselves for this purpose. The same needs to be done in case of a book from God. The question is have we prepared ourselves for proper understanding of message of God? If we have then there is a good chance that we will get the sense in time but if we have not then it is not going to happen.

For better understanding of where I am coming from one has to read what I have explained about deen of islam in my other posts. The main question is, what is original human language, how did people start communicating with each other using speech, writing and reading? Once we come to know these things then we will come to realise how language actually works. We will also come to know why the quran is the way it is in a language that is used by God.

regards and all the best.

Mughal:
First,
I would appreciate a response to my comments to you on a previous post. Please respond.


You claim there are no errors in the Quran, but the Quran disagrees with you.

Tafsir on Quran 88.20
"And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law."


http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... nguageId=2

Islamic scholars say the earth is flat, when it is not, it is a sphere.

The Islamic scholars are wrong, because the Quran has misled them to be wrong.

QED
The Quran has at least one error.
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manfred
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by manfred »

@Roky,

it would be nice to have you contributing some more...
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skynightblaze
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by skynightblaze »

Roky wrote:There, you have two unequivocal, doubtless, concrete errors. But, where the possibility was most, Quran never for once makes such a blunder.
Can anyone explain that?
Can you illustrate your point by giving examples? I feel exactly opposite of you. There are plenty of scientific errors in the quran. Many of them are as a result of repeating the erroneous beliefs of those times. People of those times believed that earth was flat , sky was a roof, stars are missiles shot at jinns, all organisms created in pairs , semen comes from backbone and ribs etc etc. Quran made these mistakes. The possibility of these mistakes finding their way in the quran was maximum and we indeed see that.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Hombre
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Hombre »

it is known fact that, all three holy books contain edicts and acts which today we find them abhorrent and objectionable. Incest, execution without due process, polygamy, pedophilia etc. The difference is, today both Jews & Christians expressly and directly prohibit these acts through laws.

That is not the case with Islam. They still condone and practice same despicable acts like child marriage, polygamy, public executions (afternoon matinée shows in Saudi Arabia), and prohibition to ask simple questions about their religion - except Muhammad was most perfect man ever lived. Was he?

That's what's keeping Muslims stuck in the wasteland of of the Arabian desert, preventing them from utilize their full potential as productive members of societies.
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Fernando
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Fernando »

It's understandable that the Koran contains a great deal of unscientific tripe - people knew no better in those days. It's somewhat less understandable that a maniacal warlord was revered as "perfect" - but there were a lot of them about in those days. What is unacceptable is that such things are still being viewed through a 7th century lens when in the 21st century they are seen quite differently - because they were different.
"The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there"! (L.P. Hartley)
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, people have three basic ideologies whereby they interpret things a)secularism b)religious and c)the way of life advised by God. People go against religion because it tells them material world is evil but mankind know for sure they are material beings and they need material things to continue living otherwise they will be dead.

People go against secularism because it takes them away from idea of God and that is not a good thing for humanity in any way because then people lose sense of purpose and various other information that is only provided by religious thoughts. This internal struggle in each and every mind that reaches this stage in one's thought process keeps people confused between which way to turn because if they turn to one they lose the other.

Most debates are exactly the same in their nature between secularists and religious minded people. The only different thing is deen of islam. It is different because it shows people exactly how to keep God and material world both. Deen of islam is a way of life. One has to ask oneself what is a way of life? A way of life is about fulfilling one's needs to live a meaningful fulfilled life. Living is about having good things to eat and drink. It is about having a nice place to live in, it is about having good health and education ie things that matter for mankind and make their life beautiful in this world are termed amilussaalihaat and ahsanul amaal. All this is not possible without people coming together as an ummah or a proper human community based upon guidance of Allah. This is why the quran is a program for some set goals for mankind to accomplish according to some provided guidelines. People are supposed to consult each other and bring about a constitution and laws in light of that information for that purpose and then live by that ensuring a great life for each and every member of the community.

In deen of islam therefore there is no concept of religious beliefs or religion based rituals for making God happy to get things from him. God has set up this world exactly as the quran explains and it works towards the purpose God has set for it. There is no room in deen of islam for nonsense of any kind be it in the name of secularism or religion. People will come to deen of islam as they get to know it but it is going to take time. It will happen because both religion and secularism will fail mankind completely in time to come.

today people are not turning to deen of islam because most debates are between religious and secular people who waste each other's time by confusing each other but time is coming when people will get fed up with this sort of carry on and look for alternative. That is when idea of deen of islam will find favour in eyes of mankind.

regards and all the best.
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manfred
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by manfred »

In deen of islam therefore there is no concept of religious beliefs or religion based rituals for making God happy to get things from him.
:lotpot:

Mughal almost all your posts give me a good chuckle, please keep them coming.

So in Islam there are no beliefs and no rituals...???

What is the shahadda thing all about? If it is not about belief, what is it? A cooking recipe?

And what is a "valid prayer" in Islam? Wudu? Ramadan? Hajj? Eid? If theu are not rituals, what are they? Cheese crackers?
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Hombre
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Hombre »

mughal:
There is no room in deen of islam for nonsense of any kind be it in the name of secularism or religion.
telling you how to bathe, or which hand to use to wipe the tuchos ("ass" in yiddish). Or which foot to use entering home & mosque and which one entering bathroom - it is not only nonsense - it is outright stupid. Why the hell do you need to be told how to wipe yourself in bathroom, or bathe.?

One would assume humanities (includes Muslims) have come a long way to know how to perform these daily hygiene, w/o be told by an illiterate man who lived in Arabian desert some 1400 years ago.

As manfred had pointed out - you are a special class of Muslim with a lots of sense of humor & priceless entertaining value.
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by iffo »

@Rocky,

you say no errors in quran. How about
1- "He was created from a fluid, ejected,Emerging from between the backbone and the ribs."
2. Muhsin Khan And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

Are stars missiles ?
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Fernando
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by Fernando »

Hombre wrote: telling you how to bathe, or which hand to use to wipe the tuchos ("ass" in yiddish). Or which foot to use entering home & mosque and which one entering bathroom - it is not only nonsense - it is outright stupid. Why the hell do you need to be told how to wipe yourself in bathroom, or bathe.?
They have to do it that way because Mo did it that way. Evidently the poor chap had Obsessive Compulsive Disorder as well as his other problems.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
piscohot
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Re: Error Free Quran

Post by piscohot »

muslims are very good linguistic gymnasts when it comes to the quran.

As soon as you spot an error in the quran with the current translations, they will tell you that the word actually meant something else that would make it seem that there is no more error in the quran.

Everytime.
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."
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