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The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:42 pm
by piscohot
.....first warner to the people of Mecca?

Muslims believed that the Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael on Allah's instruction in Mecca.

This is found in Suras-
2:127 And remember Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.
3:96 Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for mankind.,
22:26 Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

As stated in the verses above, the Kaaba was the first house of worship for Islam and more importantly - a guidance for mankind.
Which meant that the people living in Mecca at the time Abraham supposedly built the Kaaba would have come to know from Abraham of the religion of Allah.

Yet, in other verses of the quran, it claimed Muhammad as the first 'warner' or messenger to the people in Mecca.
11:49 That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muhammad]. You knew it not, neither you nor your people, before this. So be patient; indeed, the [best] outcome is for the righteous .
32:3 Or do they say, "He invented it"? Rather, it is the truth from your Lord, [O Muhammad], that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you [so] perhaps they will be guided.
36:6 That you may warn a people whose forefathers were not warned, so they are unaware.

is the quran implying that Abraham went through great distances in the desert, built the Kaaba (which is to be a guidance for mankind) and left the place without a word of why he built the kaaba and for what purpose? Such that it rested on Muhammad to be the first person to bring Allah's message to the people in Mecca?
Abraham supposedly lived 2000 BC ago, so the kaaba stood for about 2600 years without any word on why it is there?
:shock:

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:10 pm
by sum
What message did Abraham give to mankind that now supports the doctrine of Islam? Did the message of Abraham regarding Islam die out until Muhammad came along? How come there are no records of this message supporting Allah and Islam?

sum

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:02 pm
by frankie
If the Kaaba was built by Abraham, why is it not important to Jews and Christians?

And why was Abraham buried at Hebron Israel, and not Mecca?

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:26 pm
by Fernando
frankie wrote:If the Kaaba was built by Abraham, why is it not important to Jews and Christians?

And why was Abraham buried at Hebron Israel, and not Mecca?
There's worse - IIRC there are claims that the first Kaaba was built by Adam.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:32 am
by Mughal
Dear friends, till people try and understand the way to make proper sense of message of God they will keep each other confused and remain in chaos.

Abraham sacrificed his sons, what does it mean in proper quranic context? It simply means Abraham offered his sons for mission of God ie to work for delivering message of God to mankind as far as they could reach. After all what was the need for God sending his messengers to mankind? Only an ignorant person will think of God telling Abraham to kill his own children in the name of God. Deen of islam is a mission based way of life and people who know what mission means and what sacrifice means in that context can see what I am talking about.

kaaba means nothing other than centre of administration for kingdom based upon guidance of God. Wherever any messenger of God established rule of God on earth it was masjidal haraam ie a place or kingdom wherein doing any harm to anyone was strictly forbidden and doing whatever could make life beautiful for people was compulsory. The proper human community in a kingdom managed all things by organising and regulating themselves according to the guidance of God. The administration had the main office and the sub-offices and they were called masaajid in the context of the quran. Since deen of islam was established here and there in the world by various messengers of Allah therefore there were more than one kaabas in different times and places.

A kaaba was nothing more than a marked place for muslims to gather and consult each other as an ummah like a general meeting place to decide matters of concern for people in the light of their knowledge about guidance of Allah. Words BAITULLAH mean constitution of Allah not just house of God. After all kingdom of Allah is a house for people wherein they could be safe and secure due to following the way of life advised by Allah. Why people will be safe and secure by following way of life advised by Allah? Because that way of life can lead them to blissful, dignified and secure existence in the kingdom brought about according to guidance of Allah.

By taking things in the wrong direction people can only confuse each other and keep each other in chaos and thereby prolong human suffering by hands of each other which increases with time.

There is not even a tiny bit wrong with message of Allah but people need to learn how to understand it properly so that then they could follow it faithfully and get what it promises them as the outcome of their own thoughts and actions for each other.

Islam is not a religion but a deen. This is why people are told, for you is outcome of your thoughts and actions and for me is outcome of my thoughts and actions. Whatever we think and do for or to each other it has its consequences and rewards.

Various versions of religions and secularism are ruining the world for mankind but people are not stopping to give themselves time to think about where are they exactly heading.

All because people do not want to live as God wants them to live and that was the very reason he sent them his message but they instead of turning to message turned the message into a religious mumbo jumbo.

Well everyone will have his/her day before his/her creator and so will we as per our thoughts and actions. It is therefore absolutely necessary that we are clear in our heads about what concepts should we have about God, his messages and his messengers etc etc and from which concepts we should stay away because right concepts will result in a beautiful life of mankind in this world and and wrong concepts will deliver people a life in hell of their own making.

regards and all the best.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:34 am
by manfred
kaaba means nothing other than centre of administration for kingdom of God


:lotpot:

That must because it is empty inside and nobody is doing any work there at all, as is the case with almost all administrations.

Hackney council seems to be much better at administration... at least there are usually people inside their offices, when they are not on strike, and maybe 10-20% of them sometimes do some work occasionally.

And is it part of the duty of this administration centred on the Kaaba to sentence poets to death for commenting on the effectiveness of this "administration"?

Well everyone will have his/her day before his/her creator and so will we as per our thoughts and actions. It is therefore absolutely necessary that we are clear in our head about what concepts should we have about God, his messages and his messengers etc etc.


Allah runs a thought police? "You thought I was like an old man with a beard. Get tortured in hell for ever." "You thought I liked chicken soup. Burn in hell for eternity."

To you he will say "You thought I was an office manager. How dare you thinking I have such a terrible job. I will watch your agony in hell for all time and rejoice."

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:46 pm
by alemcodon
Ahhh, ignorance is bliss as always.

When abraham came to meccah, there was no town, the story goes he sent his
wife who you call hagar via gods instruction to meccah, with their child ishmail,
they settled there and the town was born.

Now the same as every other people in history who are left to their own accord, they sway
from their religion and start doing dodgy things.

Hagar found the zam zam well, and from there it became a settlement and a town.
before that it was an unmarked place in the desert.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:02 pm
by manfred
Ahhh, ignorance is bliss as always.

When abraham came to meccah, there was no town, the story goes he sent his
wife who you call hagar via gods instruction to meccah, with their child ishmail,
they settled there and the town was born.


Well, so according to you Mecca as a town was founded by Hagar and Ishmael? Mother and son? That was the "town"?

But let's assume there was a town there, founded just as you say. Then by the time Mohammed was born this town would be2500 years old.

So why is it not mentioned in any ancient text, by any ancient historian? Why do we not find anything in any of the annals or records of neighbouring cities or countries? Where are the ancient buildings, monuments, inscriptions?

And how on earth did a frail old man like Abraham walk 1600 km through the most hostile desert on the planet? And why? To build a sanctuary in the middle of nowhere? Why not build it closer to home?

And worse, how is it possible that not a single person living in Mecca knew about this Abraham connection until Mohammed suddenly came up with it? He only mentioned it after the conquest of Mecca, when the pagan polytheistic Kaaba needed a new identity and history, so that it could part of Islam and contribute funds to Mohammed.

Can you really not see that theis whole story of Abraham and Kaaba does not stand up for long enough to be knocked down?

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:19 pm
by frankie
alemcodon wrote:Ahhh, ignorance is bliss as always.

When abraham came to meccah, there was no town, the story goes he sent his
wife who you call hagar via gods instruction to meccah, with their child ishmail,
they settled there and the town was born.

Now the same as every other people in history who are left to their own accord, they sway
from their religion and start doing dodgy things.

Hagar found the zam zam well, and from there it became a settlement and a town.
before that it was an unmarked place in the desert.


alemcodeon:
Before I go further into discussion on this subject, I would like your opinion first why Abraham should be buried in Hebron Israel, and not near the Kaaba, if it is as you say, a place rebuilt by him and his son Ishmail?

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:24 pm
by alemcodon
Who said he walked, he might have had a camel, people of those days werent
confined to 10mile radius because they had no cars, if that were the case how
did the natives get to the Americas? How did people get to Europe 5000 years ago?

I bet you never asked/stated to a European scientists with cave paintings from 5000 years ago,
that it was impossible?

is it hard to believe a town started from 2 people, every town had a beginning, and more
likey than not, they all had humble beginnings from a settlement of 1 family.

400 years ago the first white,man stepped foot in the america's, today we have a nation
of 400million poeple and mega cities like new york, so a city from nothing to 20million
in 400 years is far less likely and far less believable than a city of 1.6 million after
4000+ years.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:26 pm
by alemcodon
the story goes he was instructed by god to leave them there,
he went back to see them after,many years, but that wasn't his residence,
he thought he was leaving them to their death, but that's what god told
him to do, so he did it, they survived and a town was built .

The reason was because his first wife sarah, didn't like his second wife.
The biblical story says hagar didn't bore the son that god promised him.
the islamic story doesnt mention that aspect.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:32 pm
by alemcodon
Manfred, look at the questions you pose in the last post, this highlights something very important in
your mindset, its like you automatically reject EVERYTHING related to the quraan and islam, to the point
where your questions and rejections become quite absurd, it just shows how powerfully you hate Islam,
to the point its affecting your rationality.

You refuse to accept and question abrahams role in meccah, citing it as an impossibility, meanwhile
irrefutable evidence is all around you of cities of 20million plus raised from nothing in 3-400 years,
yet you want to deny a city of 1.6 million grew in 4000 years.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:48 pm
by manfred
I am simply asking you this: a city that is that old leaves traces around. Can you show me even one tiny piece of evidence that Mecca existed, say at the time of the Roman empire. If, as you say the evidence is "all around" why will nobody ever produce even a hint of it?

Mecca as a city was less than 300 years old when Mohammed was born. That much is simply a fact.

Who said he walked, he might have had a camel,...


Well, that does not seem likely, as we know that the camel was not domesticated until around 1000BC, which is a long time after Abraham, even after Moses. When the earliest biblical texts were written, a Camel was still a novelty. To suggest that Abraham used one is in effect an anachronism.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... y-science/

and how did people get to Europe thousands of years ago? Very slowly. And they did not go back and forth.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:41 pm
by Fernando
alemcodon wrote:Who said he walked, he might have had a camel, people of those days werent
confined to 10mile radius because they had no cars, if that were the case how
did the natives get to the Americas? How did people get to Europe 5000 years ago?
False analogy. Just because peoples migrated thousands of miles doesn't mean Abraham could have travelled to Mecca in his old age. The migrations across the world were done by people slowly settling beyond their own territories, a little distance each generation. They didn't suddenly up-sticks and walk across continents.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:35 pm
by Hombre
alemcodon
you discuss travel from lash area of Ur were Abraham is said to have originated from and lived, all through 1600 km of arid, hot and harsh desert south to Mecca, as travel between Liverpool & Manchester through lash & green countryside.

Please, here we are asking to use your common sense. Even if they travelled on camels (which as manfred pointed out, as unlikely), they needed some 2 to 3 months to get to their destination. For that, they needed food supplies for themselves and their animals. That means travel with large herd of sheep, and carry vegetables and fruits. How could they feed and provide water to these animals?.

The very reason HB & NT mention Hebron, in today's Israel, as the place to which Abraham was travelling to, is because the rout between Ur and Hebron had much better food supply (grass & water), and more convenient climate then Mekkah.

If indeed, your claim is true, why Abraham chose to be berried along with his immediate family is Hebron and not in Mekkah. A place which even Muslims believe and pray at his graveside.

I also ask the same question. If your & other Muslims claim of Abraham, who lived some 1700 BCE indeed built the Qa'aba, why it took Muslims 2500 year later bring it up.?

The truth is. the whole story of Jews & Christian prophets and their connection with Islam was concocted by Muhammad, to con others to believe his religion is "universal. He used anything - deceptions, lies, and outright dishonesty to get people to believe him. When they refused and called his bluff - he killed their men, raped their women and enslaved their children and looted their properties.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:13 am
by SAM
frankie wrote:If the Kaaba was built by Abraham, why is it not important to Jews and Christians?

And why was Abraham buried at Hebron Israel, and not Mecca?
And why the tomb of Abraham, Isaac and both wife's Sarah and Rebekah under the authority of the Muslims not Jews or Christians. :turban:

Image


Masjid-e-Khalil, Hebron was built on the small cemetery where the graves of four of the most famous prophets and their wives. Four prophet Abraham, son Isaaq, son Yaqoob and his son Yusuf.

Image


Tomb of Prophet Abraham. He died at the age of 175.


Frankie... Can you explain to me, why do tomb or grave of Abraham with a cloth wrap verses of the Quran and not verses of Torah or N.T Jews or Christians.

Image


Tomb of Isaac and his wife Rebekah. Isaac passed away at the age of 180 years. These tombs are on the Muslim side, along with Sarah. .


Image

This is the grave of Sarah and mother of Isaac with verses of the Quran. It is located in the south-east side of Masjid-e-Khalil under the authority of the Muslims.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:08 am
by manfred
Frankie... Can you explain to me, why do tomb or grave of Abraham with a cloth wrap verses of the Quran and not verses of Torah or N.T Jews or Christians.


Oh, SAM, use your common sense... the cloth was put there much much later by Arabs. Why did the Israelis not remove it? Because they don't want to stir up a frenzy and give the Palestinians an excuse for a rampage.

We do not even know for sure if that really is the grave of Abraham...

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:22 pm
by SAM
manfred wrote:
Frankie... Can you explain to me, why do tomb or grave of Abraham with a cloth wrap verses of the Quran and not verses of Torah or N.T Jews or Christians.


Oh, SAM, use your common sense... the cloth was put there much much later by Arabs. Why did the Israelis not remove it? Because they don't want to stir up a frenzy and give the Palestinians an excuse for a rampage.
Incorrect, the scholars of the Bible, Jews and Christians know that Abraham was a Muslim and not a religious Jew or Christian.

As stated in the Quran, Surah al-Imran:

"Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have no knowledge. Why do then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not. Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifan (Islamic Monotheism), to worship none but Allah Alone and he was not of the polytheists (he joined none in worship with Allah). "

We do not even know for sure if that really is the grave of Abraham...
So far none of the Biblical, Jewish and Christian scholars confederates Ibrahim's tomb.

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:23 pm
by frankie
SAM:
Can you explain to me, why do tomb or grave of Abraham with a cloth wrap verses of the Quran and not verses of Torah or N.T Jews or Christians


This place is revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, it is arranged so that each faith has its own space.

But the question which is most pertinent which you have not answered is why is Abraham buried in a place not relevant to his alleged Muslim heritage, a place many miles from where he is supposed to have rebuilt a shrine to his God, which was the God of Israel?

Re: The kaaba built by Abraham? So Muhammad is not the..

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 1:55 pm
by SAM
frankie wrote:This place is revered by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, it is arranged so that each faith has its own space.
Irrelevant answer, I ask about the verses of the Quran at the grave of Ibrahim's not every faith has its own space.

But the question which is most pertinent which you have not answered is why is Abraham buried in a place not relevant to his alleged Muslim heritage, a place many miles from where he is supposed to have rebuilt a shrine to his God, which was the God of Israel?
This is the will of Abraham wanted in buried there as well as the other prophets where they want to be buried.

As an example of Moses...

Image


Prophet Muhammad said, “The angel of death was sent to Musa. When he came to Musa, Musa slapped him on the eye. :sadangel: :lol: The angel returned to Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) and said, ‘You have sent me to a servant who does not want to die’. Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) ordered the angel, ‘Return to him and tell him to put his hand on the back of an Ox and for every hair that will come under it, he will be granted one year of life’. Musa, ‘O Lord! What will happen after that’? Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) replied, ‘Then death’. Musa decided, ‘Let it be now’. Musa then requested Allah (Glorified and Exalted is He) to let him die close to the Sacred Land (near Masjid al-Aqsa) so much so that he would be at a distance of a stone’s throw from it”. Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) added, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) then said, “If I were there, I would show you his grave below the red sand hill on the side of the road.”