Legitimacy of the hadiths

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

yeezevee wrote:
Mughal says to Darth wrote:
.......

As for God needing something from his creation question, you need to think things through. God does not depend on people for his existence but since God is there then he can do anything because he is a living being. So when he does something he will have to plan it due to being the wise one. Once he plans something to do then he becomes bound by his goal to fulfil it and that is where he needs creation because otherwise he cannot fulfil his goal, There is a big differences between God being complete within himself and what he will need if he decides to take upon himself some responsibility. It is like if you do not drive then you do not need a car but if you do decide to drive then car will become your need. So God has a choice before making his decisions but once he has made his choice then he has to stick with it. This does not mean God is powerless but that he puts himself into that situation by choice. This is why people can ask God whatever they like if it is against his plan then he will not grant it because the choice for God is to fulfil his plan or listen to others and give up his plan.

.............
well Mughal I was under the impression from YOUR POSTS IN FFI, that book Quran is nothing to do with god and it is book of rules and guidance to humanity for human being how to live their life without hurting each other and be nice, be prosperous ..etc..etc.. but you seem to consider it is a Book of God..or from God..

Anyways why do you use words like "He"., His, Himself " for the god?
Does your god has gender and it is male species?
What actually do you mean or do you imagine "What God is" Mughal ??

Dear yeezevee, when I started my study it was the case that I did not know what I will discover so I was not sure but after going through the quran things have changed very much. I accept the quran is work of God because it is not possible for humanity to produce a book like the quran. It will become obvious even for thinking atheists if I havethe time and health to complete my work on the quran. Even if I do not it will guide interested others to carry on research where I leave. Well the my hope anyway but who knows.

If you read arabic language it does not have word for none living things as a singular 3rd person pronoun. I mean there is no difference between ALLAZI or ALLATI both mean it, s/he. The one or she, the one or he etc.

My use of language is the way I am used to speaking, I am not a politically correct sort of guy if you like. I hope you can forgive me for that because as they say old habits die hard.

As for the video you posted, sam harris is good but once I am finished with my work on the quran and he gets some education, he will have to do a lot better than that to remain an atheist. We will have to wait and see, wont we? This is only the beginning because I wanted to see if alternative reasonable interpretation was possible. Now I found out that it is. This is why I am now going to explain what quran actually says and if I get time then I will take on mullahs and atheists to show what is wrong with the way they are looking at things. This means at least a couple of more trips for me through the quran. So only God know whether I will be able to make it or not but hope so anyway.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal:
“If you need to know such information about the prophet as I have explained read the quran and also hadith books, it is all there.”
Using your advice,

Quran 33.21

“Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.”

Quran 48.28
“It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is God for a Witness.

Mohammed must have put Allah’s commands into action correctly enough for Muslims to take as their role model. Mohammed lived the way Islam should be practiced, which in turn allows Muslims to do the same.

You cannot find out how to emulate Mohammed, unless you read the said authentic ahadiths, which you affirm.

When Muslims read the authentic hadiths to find out exactly how Mohammed put into action Allah's commands, to enable them to copy his example, they come across the following quotes from Mohammed:

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

From the Quran:

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

8.39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

It can be clearly deduced then by reading the Quran and ahadiths,( as you recommend), that Mohammed fought people to the death until they accepted Allah as the only god to be worshipped. He followed what Allah commanded by putting believers in Allah at eternal war towards unbelievers in Allah, until such time they believed in Allah.

To be a true Muslim is to be a soldier for Allah, in the military sense, to fight in his cause, to kill and get killed, which is exactly what true Muslims are doing worldwide today.

If you saying that they are not following Islam as it should be followed, then who is at fault here, Muslims following the words they see written in their "holy scriptures "telling them to kill in the name of their god, or the actual written words ,said to be clear guidance for Muslims, but are being so misunderstood by Muslims that they are invalidating their faith.

This is Islam, a militant faith based on the concept “to kill and get killed” in the name of a pagan entity, the one Mohammed was brought up to worship, and pay homage to by kissing a “heaven sent” (meteorite) black stone.

Anyone accepting this dangerous nonsense as “truth” is as deluded as the man said to be their prophet.

Rather than help people like me to “understand that you are asking the wrong question” it is strongly recommended that it is yourself who should be asking the right questions, to understand more fully the faith you are so desperate to defend.
Dear frankie, let us raise the question, what is it that prophet muhammad ought to be doing according to the quran in priority order?

1)learn and understand the quran himself, that is because unless he did that he could put it into practice.

2)teach the same to others through any means available to him at the time, because if he did not then he could not unite others for the purpose of bringing about the community he was told to raise.

3)if people accepted his call then he had to educate and train them to carry out similar work so that more and more people come and join the community that is already there.

4)when community is large enough then look for place to establish a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah to carry out the program of Allah according to his provided constitution and guidelines to regulate it. The idea is so that this kingdom puts a show case kingdom before the world to learn how to live in this world properly as told by Allah.

In the face of it all this looks a piece of cake in the plate but it is not. Why not? Here come the problems.

Once people start establishing a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah, it is going to take away all enslaved people away from their masters all around. Do you think they will sit and watch and let muhammad and his supporters do that? If yes, then fine but if no, what sort of preparations are needed for these people to defend themselves to stay safe and be able to fulfil the mission?

The attraction in the package Allah offers humanity is huge but not for those who are hell bent on animosity and hatred and wars. As people head towards islamic state their rulers and masters who think they own them do all they can to put a stop to this carry on in way they can. What followed is written very clearly in the books and if one reads it in a sensible way one will have no difficulty in putting it into this context.

However, I separate islamic history into three parts a)time of the prophet, b)time soon after him up to say 30 years and c)time of muslim imperialism. This was time when muslim became just like nonnmuslims and remained so to date. a) is called ehade nabi b)is called ehade sahaba or ehade khilaafah and c)ehade malukiyat.

Ummah does know muslims are not living the way the prophet did nor are they living like his rightly guided companion after him. However they keep dreaming on about bringing back the kingdom based upon guidance of Allah. That is because the quran tells muslims that that kingdom will come about and that it will be universal this time and will remain forever till the world end. This will happen either after a terribly bloody revolution because opponents of that kingdom based upon guidance of Allah will lead world into such a situation that there will be universal wars between mankind or muslims will manage to pull the world back from the brink of total destruction through educating them in which case there will not be any more universal wars and instead a worldwide kingdom based upon quranic guidance will come about. This is not told only in the quran but in books Allah sent before it as well.

This kingdom the quran is talking about will come about as a result of all people working towards it themselves and not due to any divine intervention or any divine messengers etc.

Christian, jew, hindu and muslim mullahs are preaching about coming of a savour in form of kali, elijah, jesus etc but none of these is true. Of course, somebody will be the leader of the movement but he will be one of the ordinary people themselves at the time. If we look around we can see people are not much happy with the world situation and they want to change it for the better but they have no idea what to do and how to do it and on top we have everything under control of those who do not want kingdom of God to come about, so they are trying to give people other things to take their attention away from the real life problems humanity is facing all over the world. The quran is answer to all such problems and none can defeat God in his plan. We will end up where God as told us, sooner if we will follow his plan wilfully or later as we beat each other towards it. These are the only choices we have.

Muslims and nonmuslims are suffering at hands of each other because neither of them is paying attention to the message of Allah as they ought to. Had muslims studied the quran properly and delivered the message to noonnmuslims properly things would not have happened this way. It is written in the quran that when people who are told by God to do his work do not do it then he lets their opponent rise up against them to teach them a good lesson. read the story of children of israel in the quran what happened to them after they left the deen of jacob and joseph. Moses was only sent when they had enough of the hiding they needed from the pharaoh and his chiefs. So Allah has no such chosen people whom he supports even if they do things the wrong way. So all peopple need top wake up and do their bit if tyey want their world to be a better place by putting forth a way of life can deliver then from all their problems.

As for calling muhammad the bandit and robber etc etc, look into the things in the quranic context. All things belong to Allah including people so none has right to anything unless one uses them properly for the good of mankind. If any people will not then Allah has every right to take things away from them and hand them over to any other people who will manage his world better. There is no favouritism or partiality in decisions of Allah. The quran promises muslims upper hand only if they will live by guidance of Allah faithfully otherwise they will get the hiding they need just like many nations before them including, hindus, parsis, jews, christians etc etc. This is why just because muslims are not following the quran does not mean the prophet and his companions did not either.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

darth wrote:
Mughal wrote: The quran repeated tells us to use our brains and sense to get deeper and wider experiences in life then judge things based upon that knowledge we gather.
Can you quote the exact verse where it asks you to do this? You have in the past shown the woeful habit of imagining the verse saying things it does not say, so let us see what verse you are talking about
Mughal wrote: Dear darth, I have not seen any book that is written for adults to help them understand things in a few words or lines even by most knowledgeable people. If we had that great understanding of things, we will not be arguing with each other.
Read the eight fold path. Much more concise and simply explained which the author of the quran was unable to do because he was neither guided by a true God nor was he educated himself

Mughal wrote: As for God needing something from his creation question, you need to think things through. God does not depend on people for his existence but since God is there then he can do anything because he is a living being. So when he does something he will have to plan it due to being the wise one. Once he plans something to do then he becomes bound by his goal to fulfil it and that is where he needs creation because otherwise he cannot fulfil his goal, There is a big differences between God being complete within himself and what he will need if he decides to take upon himself some responsibility. It is like if you do not drive then you do not need a car but if you do decide to drive then car will become your need. So God has a choice before making his decisions but once he has made his choice then he has to stick with it. This does not mean God is powerless but that he puts himself into that situation by choice. This is why people can ask God whatever they like if it is against his plan then he will not grant it because the choice for God is to fulfil his plan or listen to others and give up his plan.

regards and all the best.
You were the one that claimed that the goal of the quran is to recognize and appreciate the creator and the quran is about that. Now here you are trying to interpret what God is or is not - a being you have neither seen nor heard. Stick to the quran and try to answer - why would an almighty God be so needy that he would send a book that has no more goals than to teach people to recognize and praise him? As you say a God (if there is one) does not depend on people and having people praise or recognize him is irrelevant to him. It is people who feel the need to praise and recognize him. If the goal of the quran is to this simplistic, then it most definitely must have been authored by a human.
Dear darth, you are so confused if I may say so. I mean you said that I was writing too much and when I gave you simple answers you could not make sense of them without the context. This is why you should take time and read what I have written about the quran if you are really interested in knowing things and then ask questions otherwise your questions and my answers are just meaningless back and forth nonsense.

I have already explained things you are asking about so please go through them.

regards and all the best.
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Amanalice
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Amanalice »

Mughal, O Mughal. You preach this CONTEXT everywhere but avoid to do it in my questions.

BTW, CONTEXT is not muslims copy-righted trick to play games that when they want they will go into CONTEXT and when just literally fits into game they dont go into CONTEXT.

Enough of this CONTEXT game. Come to the ground of literal reality and face the truth.
NEVER ARGUE WITH A STUPID, COZ 1ST HE WILL PULL YOU DOWN TO HIS LEVEL THEN WILL BEAT YOU WITH HIS EXPERIENCE
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skynightblaze
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by skynightblaze »

Mughal wrote:As for God needing something from his creation question, you need to think things through. God does not depend on people for his existence but since God is there then he can do anything because he is a living being. So when he does something he will have to plan it due to being the wise one. Once he plans something to do then he becomes bound by his goal to fulfil it and that is where he needs creation because otherwise he cannot fulfil his goal, There is a big differences between God being complete within himself and what he will need if he decides to take upon himself some responsibility. It is like if you do not drive then you do not need a car but if you do decide to drive then car will become your need. So God has a choice before making his decisions but once he has made his choice then he has to stick with it. This does not mean God is powerless but that he puts himself into that situation by choice. This is why people can ask God whatever they like if it is against his plan then he will not grant it because the choice for God is to fulfil his plan or listen to others and give up his plan.
Mughal in all seriousness, you are insulting people's intelligence. What is the point in arguing with you when you deny even simple and obvious logic? Debate of such kind is useless. Now if God cannot do certain things then it is either by choice or he is not all powerful and hence the inability. I see you cunningly avoided the other possibility claiming that God restricts himself by choice. How do we know it is not the later? Mere claims are not going to work. We have 2 possibilities. You need to rule out the possibility that God is powerless and hence unable to fulfil his goals without his creation. By presenting the same excuse as you have given, anyone can claim he is God and all powerful. When questioned about limitations, he can just say that limitations are imposed by choice. In short your argument is not conclusive.

You have given up your reasoning for the worst. On the other thread you were asking me as to why I don't consider the possibility that non muslims historians as well as muslim historians wrote lies to defame the good work done by Muhammad. How can your God expect people to believe in his messenger if all people read about him is crime, crime and crime? Your God is an absolute idiot if he is expecting people believe in him in that case. Why couldn't he protect his messenger's reputation so that people are not led astray by false stories? If he didn't protect his messenger's repute then what does that tell you about him? Can God be so careless and uncaring about his message whose validity depends upon the character of his messenger? Now if you believe that people have attributed lies to muhammad then how come others like Buddha, Krishna or Jesus were never attributed lies like Muhammad?

Btw where do you get the idea that Muhammad did good work? Quran does not say anything about life of muhammad and if you ask people to refer to ahadith as you asked Frankie then he has quoted abundant proofs that disprove your claim that muhammad did any good work. His bad deeds outweigh any good deeds he did and hence he was a criminal. Please dont quote quran or ahadith to show me some peaceful verses or quotes to prove that islam is not a violent religion. If violent statements in a religion in comparison to peaceful ones are more then it is but obviously a violent religion. You interpret something as a whole and not based on just 1 or 2 statements. Many of the peaceful statements are abrogated and while those that are not abrogated are tiny minority. You just have to take the ratio of peaceful statements to violent ones to know what kind of religion islam is. You cannot make a case for peaceful islam based on tiny minority of statements.

If you cannot answer the above questions logically you really need to stop this madness about quran. People use their common sense and ask right questions and you expect people to believe in some extra ordinary and fancy stuff and then blame them for not believing in it. That is disgusting to say the least and an insult to people's intelligence. You are no different than other mullahs who by hook or crook need to hold onto the belief that quran comes from God. It is like taking for granted the following equation to be an universally accepted equation..

a*b=10.
This '10' in the equation is equivalent to the statement "quran is from God". Now all that muslims do is adjust and play with values of 'a' and 'b' in order to arrive at the end result or RHS. The question as to why a*b cannot be anything other than 10 is simply not on the horizon for them which is equivalent to why quran cannot be from God. It is taken as if it is a universal fact.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:
“If you need to know such information about the prophet as I have explained read the quran and also hadith books, it is all there.”
Using your advice,

Quran 33.21

“Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.”

Quran 48.28
“It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is God for a Witness.

Mohammed must have put Allah’s commands into action correctly enough for Muslims to take as their role model. Mohammed lived the way Islam should be practiced, which in turn allows Muslims to do the same.

You cannot find out how to emulate Mohammed, unless you read the said authentic ahadiths, which you affirm.

When Muslims read the authentic hadiths to find out exactly how Mohammed put into action Allah's commands, to enable them to copy his example, they come across the following quotes from Mohammed:

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

From the Quran:

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

8.39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.

9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

It can be clearly deduced then by reading the Quran and ahadiths,( as you recommend), that Mohammed fought people to the death until they accepted Allah as the only god to be worshipped. He followed what Allah commanded by putting believers in Allah at eternal war towards unbelievers in Allah, until such time they believed in Allah.

To be a true Muslim is to be a soldier for Allah, in the military sense, to fight in his cause, to kill and get killed, which is exactly what true Muslims are doing worldwide today.

If you saying that they are not following Islam as it should be followed, then who is at fault here, Muslims following the words they see written in their "holy scriptures "telling them to kill in the name of their god, or the actual written words ,said to be clear guidance for Muslims, but are being so misunderstood by Muslims that they are invalidating their faith.

This is Islam, a militant faith based on the concept “to kill and get killed” in the name of a pagan entity, the one Mohammed was brought up to worship, and pay homage to by kissing a “heaven sent” (meteorite) black stone.

Anyone accepting this dangerous nonsense as “truth” is as deluded as the man said to be their prophet.

Rather than help people like me to “understand that you are asking the wrong question” it is strongly recommended that it is yourself who should be asking the right questions, to understand more fully the faith you are so desperate to defend.
Dear frankie, let us raise the question, what is it that prophet muhammad ought to be doing according to the quran in priority order?

1)learn and understand the quran himself, that is because unless he did that he could put it into practice.

2)teach the same to others through any means available to him at the time, because if he did not then he could not unite others for the purpose of bringing about the community he was told to raise.

3)if people accepted his call then he had to educate and train them to carry out similar work so that more and more people come and join the community that is already there.

4)when community is large enough then look for place to establish a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah to carry out the program of Allah according to his provided constitution and guidelines to regulate it. The idea is so that this kingdom puts a show case kingdom before the world to learn how to live in this world properly as told by Allah.

In the face of it all this looks a piece of cake in the plate but it is not. Why not? Here come the problems.

Once people start establishing a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah, it is going to take away all enslaved people away from their masters all around. Do you think they will sit and watch and let muhammad and his supporters do that? If yes, then fine but if no, what sort of preparations are needed for these people to defend themselves to stay safe and be able to fulfil the mission?

The attraction in the package Allah offers humanity is huge but not for those who are hell bent on animosity and hatred and wars. As people head towards islamic state their rulers and masters who think they own them do all they can to put a stop to this carry on in way they can. What followed is written very clearly in the books and if one reads it in a sensible way one will have no difficulty in putting it into this context.

However, I separate islamic history into three parts a)time of the prophet, b)time soon after him up to say 30 years and c)time of muslim imperialism. This was time when muslim became just like nonnmuslims and remained so to date. a) is called ehade nabi b)is called ehade sahaba or ehade khilaafah and c)ehade malukiyat.

Ummah does know muslims are not living the way the prophet did nor are they living like his rightly guided companion after him. However they keep dreaming on about bringing back the kingdom based upon guidance of Allah. That is because the quran tells muslims that that kingdom will come about and that it will be universal this time and will remain forever till the world end. This will happen either after a terribly bloody revolution because opponents of that kingdom based upon guidance of Allah will lead world into such a situation that there will be universal wars between mankind or muslims will manage to pull the world back from the brink of total destruction through educating them in which case there will not be any more universal wars and instead a worldwide kingdom based upon quranic guidance will come about. This is not told only in the quran but in books Allah sent before it as well.

This kingdom the quran is talking about will come about as a result of all people working towards it themselves and not due to any divine intervention or any divine messengers etc.

Christian, jew, hindu and muslim mullahs are preaching about coming of a savour in form of kali, elijah, jesus etc but none of these is true. Of course, somebody will be the leader of the movement but he will be one of the ordinary people themselves at the time. If we look around we can see people are not much happy with the world situation and they want to change it for the better but they have no idea what to do and how to do it and on top we have everything under control of those who do not want kingdom of God to come about, so they are trying to give people other things to take their attention away from the real life problems humanity is facing all over the world. The quran is answer to all such problems and none can defeat God in his plan. We will end up where God as told us, sooner if we will follow his plan wilfully or later as we beat each other towards it. These are the only choices we have.

Muslims and nonmuslims are suffering at hands of each other because neither of them is paying attention to the message of Allah as they ought to. Had muslims studied the quran properly and delivered the message to noonnmuslims properly things would not have happened this way. It is written in the quran that when people who are told by God to do his work do not do it then he lets their opponent rise up against them to teach them a good lesson. read the story of children of israel in the quran what happened to them after they left the deen of jacob and joseph. Moses was only sent when they had enough of the hiding they needed from the pharaoh and his chiefs. So Allah has no such chosen people whom he supports even if they do things the wrong way. So all peopple need top wake up and do their bit if tyey want their world to be a better place by putting forth a way of life can deliver then from all their problems.

As for calling muhammad the bandit and robber etc etc, look into the things in the quranic context. All things belong to Allah including people so none has right to anything unless one uses them properly for the good of mankind. If any people will not then Allah has every right to take things away from them and hand them over to any other people who will manage his world better. There is no favouritism or partiality in decisions of Allah. The quran promises muslims upper hand only if they will live by guidance of Allah faithfully otherwise they will get the hiding they need just like many nations before them including, hindus, parsis, jews, christians etc etc. This is why just because muslims are not following the quran does not mean the prophet and his companions did not either.

regards and all the best.
Mughal:

"Muslims and nonmuslims are suffering at hands of each other because neither of them is paying attention to the message of Allah as they ought to."

What exactly is the "message of Allah", and how did Mohammed put this message into practice?
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Fernando
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Fernando »

Mughal, suppose we accept that Allah gave a message to Mo: how can we be sure that Allah wasn't just having an experiment or even a joke? Suppose he filled Mo's head with delusions, so see just how much damage a deluded madman could inflict on humanity?
We have no evidence that Allah did that, but nor have we any evidence that he didn't.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

skynightblaze wrote:
Mughal wrote:As for God needing something from his creation question, you need to think things through. God does not depend on people for his existence but since God is there then he can do anything because he is a living being. So when he does something he will have to plan it due to being the wise one. Once he plans something to do then he becomes bound by his goal to fulfil it and that is where he needs creation because otherwise he cannot fulfil his goal, There is a big differences between God being complete within himself and what he will need if he decides to take upon himself some responsibility. It is like if you do not drive then you do not need a car but if you do decide to drive then car will become your need. So God has a choice before making his decisions but once he has made his choice then he has to stick with it. This does not mean God is powerless but that he puts himself into that situation by choice. This is why people can ask God whatever they like if it is against his plan then he will not grant it because the choice for God is to fulfil his plan or listen to others and give up his plan.
Mughal in all seriousness, you are insulting people's intelligence. What is the point in arguing with you when you deny even simple and obvious logic? Debate of such kind is useless. Now if God cannot do certain things then it is either by choice or he is not all powerful and hence the inability. I see you cunningly avoided the other possibility claiming that God restricts himself by choice. How do we know it is not the later? Mere claims are not going to work. We have 2 possibilities. You need to rule out the possibility that God is powerless and hence unable to fulfil his goals without his creation. By presenting the same excuse as you have given, anyone can claim he is God and all powerful. When questioned about limitations, he can just say that limitations are imposed by choice. In short your argument is not conclusive.
Dear skynightblaze, we have yet to learn a lot and sense only comes the more we learn. There is no insulting of anyone's intelligence if it is case of learning. As for God doing something by choice, yes God does everything by choice and careful planning and we know that because he told us in his revelation. You logic is totally flawed because we are here and not a possibility. tell me how could God express himself and what purpose it would have served if there was none to appreciate the way God expressed himself? You are failing you realise that I am explaining the reasons as to why we are here, how we came here, what we do and why we do it and what we ought to be doing and why? My point is the explanation given in the quran is the best and cannot be beaten. In other words the explanation as per my understanding of the quran takes care of all that we see happening all around us. Anything else is mere imagination unless one can come up with better explanation than the one we find in the quran.
skynightblaze wrote:You have given up your reasoning for the worst. On the other thread you were asking me as to why I don't consider the possibility that non muslims historians as well as muslim historians wrote lies to defame the good work done by Muhammad. How can your God expect people to believe in his messenger if all people read about him is crime, crime and crime? Your God is an absolute idiot if he is expecting people believe in him in that case. Why couldn't he protect his messenger's reputation so that people are not led astray by false stories? If he didn't protect his messenger's repute then what does that tell you about him? Can God be so careless and uncaring about his message whose validity depends upon the character of his messenger? Now if you believe that people have attributed lies to muhammad then how come others like Buddha, Krishna or Jesus were never attributed lies like Muhammad?
If you had read the quran you will have found that the quran fully explains what people think and how they act and why they do that. However it is all part of learning to get better and better through interaction because that is what the world is created for by God according to the quran. People are put here on earth like self programming robots and Allah knows that they will take time to grow up and along the way many will do things the wrong way and suffer the consequences. Allah has protected reputation of his messengers in his message and people will gradually come to see that. Look at your own growth from the time you were a baby till now. How many things you have learned sop far and how many more you learn in time to come. So God does not directly interfere in what people do because he has given them a free zone to do as they please but told them the right way and its benefits and warned them against the wrong way and its consequences. Humans are created freewill creatures to an extend so will have to make their own efforts to learn things in their own time. Who told you that lies were not attributed to others and only to muhammad? Jesus is worshipped as a God, is that not a lie? Rama and krishna were also worshipped as Gods, was that not a lie? What proof is there that God ever became a human being? Although it is 40+ years I read other scriptures I still remember odd bits from them. The problem with all of you people is that you are looking at the quran from a religious point of view, which it is not. My arguments are based upon my own understanding of the quran.
skynightblaze wrote:Btw where do you get the idea that Muhammad did good work? Quran does not say anything about life of muhammad and if you ask people to refer to ahadith as you asked Frankie then he has quoted abundant proofs that disprove your claim that muhammad did any good work. His bad deeds outweigh any good deeds he did and hence he was a criminal. Please dont quote quran or ahadith to show me some peaceful verses or quotes to prove that islam is not a violent religion. If violent statements in a religion in comparison to peaceful ones are more then it is but obviously a violent religion. You interpret something as a whole and not based on just 1 or 2 statements. Many of the peaceful statements are abrogated and while those that are not abrogated are tiny minority. You just have to take the ratio of peaceful statements to violent ones to know what kind of religion islam is. You cannot make a case for peaceful islam based on tiny minority of statements.
Read the quran and the verses that use words based upon root SWAAD, LAAM and HAA eg SAALIHAAT. This usually comes after the expression o you who cliam to work for AMAN ie unity, peace, progress and prosperity. What frankie and others quote from hadith and other books are misinterpretation and misrepresentations of the actual texts in the books. Also I have explained the context in which fights and wars have to be looked at. You have never read the quran in its proper context and I can tell that because I have. I have not read hadith books yet after I got the right sense about the quran because so far I did not have the time but due to understanding that I got from the quran I have not even the slightest doubt that they too have been misinterpreted and misrepresented by imperial mullahs and people who have never read the sources in context themselves are throwing the same rubbish around. I am not however saying that all hadith reports are authentic in each and every hadith book. Even the quran only muslims have same problems because they have not understood the quran in context of a book of goals and guidelines for mankind for living their lives in a particular way as an ummah. Mullahs have been pushing imperialism as islam. None of the verses in the quran are abrogated and for that you should use you own head because a process has many stages and phases ie it starts from somewhere and reaches some point. Each and every situation demands a different plan of action because you need to do different things at different times at different stages of a process. This again shows how you are looking at islam ie not in the proper context of the quran in light of real world realities as told in the quran it self.
skynightblaze wrote:If you cannot answer the above questions logically you really need to stop this madness about quran. People use their common sense and ask right questions and you expect people to believe in some extra ordinary and fancy stuff and then blame them for not believing in it. That is disgusting to say the least and an insult to people's intelligence. You are no different than other mullahs who by hook or crook need to hold onto the belief that quran comes from God.


It is good that people try to use their sense of making sense of things but how far they succeed is anyone's guess. You too believe in something extraordinary, do you not when you talk about the origin of the universe and the quran? However you still fail to explain things you are trying to explain.
skynightblaze wrote:It is like taking for granted the following equation to be an universally accepted equation a*b=10. This '10' in the equation is equivalent to the statement "quran is from God". Now all that muslims do is adjust and play with values of 'a' and 'b' in order to arrive at the end result or RHS. The question as to why a*b cannot be anything other than 10 is simply not on the horizon for them which is equivalent to why quran cannot be from God. It is taken as if it is a universal fact.
If you had said this after studying the quran properly, that would have meant something but not the way you have put it without ever reading the quran for properly understanding it.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:Mughal, suppose we accept that Allah gave a message to Mo: how can we be sure that Allah wasn't just having an experiment or even a joke? Suppose he filled Mo's head with delusions, so see just how much damage a deluded madman could inflict on humanity?
We have no evidence that Allah did that, but nor have we any evidence that he didn't.
Dear Fernando, there is no need to suppose things because we have the information before us in form of the quran and other islamic sources. All we need to do is understand the sources properly in their proper context. Once we do that we will end up with true picture of things. Till we do not do that we will have to remain confused, won't we?

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

Amanalice wrote:Mughal, O Mughal. You preach this CONTEXT everywhere but avoid to do it in my questions.

BTW, CONTEXT is not muslims copy-righted trick to play games that when they want they will go into CONTEXT and when just literally fits into game they dont go into CONTEXT.

Enough of this CONTEXT game. Come to the ground of literal reality and face the truth.
Dear Amanalice, I am not playing games and I do not have time for that. If you have problem with people who claim to be muslims but do things that are unislamic then educate them out of it. That is what I am doing ie trying to produce things that may help people after I am gone. You never know when it is time to go. So we should try and do something useful with our lives that even if it does not help us may help our later generations.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:
Mughal wrote:Muslims and nonmuslims are suffering at hands of each other because neither of them is paying attention to the message of Allah as they ought to.
What exactly is the "message of Allah", and how did Mohammed put this message into practice?
Dear frankie, People should educate themselves and each other so that they are reasonably self aware, aware of universal realities and the message of Allah.

The flow chart

1)people should know goals and guidelines as individuals

2)they should know needs of people and available manpower and resources as individuals

3)they should work out all necessary things as individuals that need to be decided at community level through consultation as an agenda for coming together to decide things.

3)they should get together as a community

4)they should go through consultation process on the agenda of the meeting and agree on what needs to be discussed and done to get the ball rolling

5)they should set up institutions required for carrying out various plans of actions that will be needed for fulfilling needs of all people in the community in every way possible

6)they should work out all plans of actions in each and every detail and go for community consultation to see if the plans of actions are fit for the set out purposes to be carried out

7)they should as a community distribute responsibilities to each and every institution and the rights as well for a set period of time and review and revise and readjust things as need be.

8)they should work out all systems, structures, procedures and practices to each and every minute detail possible then go through community consultation process for agreement on all this.

9)they should as a community select or elect appropriate people for carrying out specific roles for each and every institution for a fixed period of time but on trial basis for a few months and if all is ok then keep people on otherwise make appropriate changes as needed till a proper balance is struck.

10)they should implement program, constitution and law for fulfilling the set goals, and keep monitoring each and everything at all levels for problems and if any show up take care of them without delay

11)proper education and training is backbone of all this and it should never be neglected

12)as a new thing in place there are going to be plenty of problems but as time goes on if appropriate steps are taken for solving them then it should not take long for the whole machinery to start running smoothly

The very basic thing is land and resources and means of production and distribution and proper organisation of human population and its proper regulation so that all have a reasonably comfortable life and make progress.

In simple words, this is what the quran teaches us as the islamic way of life and doing all this is ibaadah=worship of Allah. There is no way any clever people could beat this way of life. the quranic way of life is totally different from all ways of life kufaar(=the opponents of way of life advised by Allah) will ever come up with. It is a way of life whereby each person lives for others not against others hunting down each other for personal gains at the expense of each other as in capitalist system. This is why there is no concept of rulers among brothers ie no masters no slaves just members of the very same one united human family. No one is rich and no one is poor. All people are children of humanity and the concern is for the well being and prosperity of each other thereby of humanity as a whole. All work for the good of each other and all share ups and downs together that is why there is no excessive burden on individuals due to balanced form of life. This is what makes life beautiful for those who live for it and makes them eligible for awards in hereafter. This is how islam removes unevenness and divisions by putting responsibilities on shoulders of those who have advantages over others ie adults look after children and when children become adults and adults grow into old age people they are looked after by those children who have grown into adults and so the cycles goes on. It is because none of the people is totally disadvantaged rather each person has advantage over others in his own way and when all work together on brotherly basis, it matters not who is adult and who is old, who is tall and who short, who is fat and who is thin because there is always somebody there to help do what needs to be done. So no one gets stuck.

Islam is not a mazhab=belief system but a deen=way of life from Allah and this is how it proves that none can produce a book like the quran ie human mind was never capable of looking that far ahead in time because it needs prompting and stimulation. Even though there is no direct evidence for existence of God, the quran puts forth a proof in form of an explanation that no human being can ever beat. Since the quran is beyond production of mankind therefore the sole explanation for existence of such a book is that it is from somewhere outside created intelligence. This is why man has no explanation for it other than to accept it as it claims ie word of God.

When ummah understands the quran along these lines it will become muslim as per quran. mere make beliefs do not make one a muslim. when ummah actually understand the quran and follows it there is none in this world who could beat it. This is promise of Allah repeated in the quran.

Those who say they are muslims must pay proper attention to proper education and training along these lines. If not then they can carry on the way they have been and the result will always remain the same. the further they go away from the quranic way of life the more and more problems are guaranteed for them and rest of humanity.

Ummah is supposed to be mother and father of its people. The very word ummah comes from same root ie ALIF, MEEM and MEEM. Words like IMAAM, UMMI, UMMAH etc come from the very same root. Imaam is father of nation or leader of the nation.

Your father is no use if community is not there to support him. Look at how many fathers are there in the world and what they are doing because there is no community support for them because they are not paying attention to having a community. Look at how many mothers are there in the world who are utterly useless because there is no support for them. The same is the case for all brothers and sisters in the world because there is no support for them and they are not even thinking about becoming a brotherhood. All human beings are orphans if there is no support for them and that support is provided by Allah on the basis of a way of life based upon bringing about a proper human community. A clear proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the quran is word of Allah as it claims.

Think about it, how long have hindu scriptures been in this world eg vedas, puraanas, upnishads, mahabarata, raamayana etc etc, the parsi scripture avesta, the jewish scriptures and the christian scriptures and now the quran. Think about how many messengers and books Allah sent in the world ie thousands of them yet humanity has failed to grasp the message of Allah for its own well being. Now imagine if this is the real situation of the world after having so many true teachers to guide it then where could humanity be without any of them being there?

We have heard people talking about instinctive behaviour, I want you to think about it in a bit of depth. Instinctive behaviour is that which is based upon reflexive action ie you cause something to happen and it happens eg you hit a glass with a hammer it smashes ie there is no thinking involved, you slap someone he slaps you back straight away without thinking about the consequences. The question is what made human beings to reflect the consequences before taking any actions? The development of thinking ability. What stimulated that process in deeper and wider way? This is the answer only external source could give human beings ie God. It is because humans could never think that far ahead all by themselves and the proof is state of humanity even today after thousands of years of learning and teaching. How could such people produce scriptures all by themselves? Why will rich and clever people produce scriptures which condemn them? How could poor who are ignorant, illiterate and uneducated? So existence of divine information is a mystery that is not possible for humanity to explain unless they accept the fact that these scriptures could never comes from people but God. There are scriptures which contain information from God none can doubt that but almost all of them contain human elements as well save the quran which none can deny who has studied the scriptures in a bit of depth.

The question is why we have people who refuse to accept existence of creator and sustainer? It is simply a matter of ignorance, illiteracy and lack of proper education. Those who deny existence of God do so because they have not studied the scriptures in light of real world realities. For the very same reason people are religious because they are not bothered with knowing things properly for themselves. They rather stay stupid than learn and improve themselves and humanity. This is why we have rulers, mullahs and money lenders because they never studied the scriptures and the real world realities to get the sense needed to be proper human beings so they are not a conscience people. They go by what suits them in context of what they know.

So if people want their world to be a beautiful place then proper education and training is prerequisite for that and based upon that hard work. The set-up systems and laws of Allah will then deliver that kind of world and that was the promise from Allah to all mankind in the world.

The idea is to deliver on time to people all things of their needs eg goods and services at the points of needs freely. No money is involved, no business for profit. Humanity comes first and foremost.

I hope this explanation helps but personal study cannot beaten. regards and all the best.
yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by yeezevee »

Mughal wrote:
yeezevee wrote: well Mughal I was under the impression from YOUR POSTS IN FFI, that book Quran is nothing to do with god and it is book of rules and guidance to humanity for human being how to live their life without hurting each other and be nice, be prosperous ..etc..etc.. but you seem to consider it is a Book of God..or from God..

Anyways why do you use words like "He"., His, Himself " for the god?
Does your god has gender and it is male species?
What actually do you mean or do you imagine "What God is" Mughal ??

Dear yeezevee, when I started my study it was the case that I did not know what I will discover so I was not sure but after going through the quran things have changed very much.
Mughal I am glad you went through the Quran and came to the conclusion "ALL EXISTING TRANSLATIONS ARE WRONG" and you worked hard to put your own translation or reprogrammed Quran in to public. I wish you have would have done that in 1970s instead of 2014 like that Egyptian American Rashad Khalifa
I accept the quran is work of God because it is not possible for humanity to produce a book like the quran.
well, you like any believer of Islam and for that matter folks from other religions have the right to beleive., no one can take away that from you.
It will become obvious even for thinking atheists if I havethe time and health to complete my work on the quran. Even if I do not it will guide interested others to carry on research where I leave. Well the my hope anyway but who knows.
It is possible., there are more than a billion Muslim folks, Rashad_Khalifa has his own group., so there is no reason no to believe you also having a group of people following your translation.
If you read arabic language it does not have word for none living things as a singular 3rd person pronoun. I mean there is no difference between ALLAZI or ALLATI both mean it, s/he. The one or she, the one or he etc.
No I don't read Arabic language For Quran I select/use translations of Muhammad Habib Shakir and/or Yusuf ali to analyze and understand the origins and reasons for publishing Quran.
My use of language is the way I am used to speaking, I am not a politically correct sort of guy if you like.I hope you can forgive me for that because as they say old habits die hard.
No..no., Question of forgiving doesn't arise here Mughal., You must have freedom to translate a book and explain people any way you like And for that you don't need to be political correct. In fact I believe if all Muslim folks follow your translation or your Quran, I think the world will be better. The first goal is to make the common Muslim folks and the leaders in Islam to trust in your translation. Off course people must have freedom to question you.
As for the video you posted, sam harris is good but once I am finished with my work on the quran and he gets some education, he will have to do a lot better than that to remain an atheist.
don't worry about atheist. As long as you have freedom to preach whatever you like with stepping on others and keeping the simple "golden rule" in mind, I don't think Atheists will bother you. I just put that video out for you so you may understand the Question of "What is god?"
We will have to wait and see, wont we? This is only the beginning because I wanted to see if alternative reasonable interpretation was possible. Now I found out that it is. This is why I am now going to explain what quran actually says and if I get time then I will take on mullahs andatheists to show what is wrong with the way they are looking at things.
True.. we will have to wait and see the public(Specially Muslim folks) reaction to your translation. Again don't worry about atheist., they are NOT putting a gun at you., They are throwing bullets at God of books and religions...
This means at least a couple of more trips for me through the quran. So only God know whether I will be able to make it or not but hope so anyway. .
I didn't get that., you mean you want read through your translation or you want to redo your translation??

Anyways I am reading your Quran., I also put them in to PDF files so it is easy for others to download and read...

with best wishes
yeezevee
frankie
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by frankie »

Mughal;
Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:
Mughal wrote:Muslims and nonmuslims are suffering at hands of each other because neither of them is paying attention to the message of Allah as they ought to.
What exactly is the "message of Allah", and how did Mohammed put this message into practice?
Dear frankie, People should educate themselves and each other so that they are reasonably self aware, aware of universal realities and the message of Allah.

The flow chart

1)people should know goals and guidelines as individuals

2)they should know needs of people and available manpower and resources as individuals

3)they should work out all necessary things as individuals that need to be decided at community level through consultation as an agenda for coming together to decide things.

3)they should get together as a community

4)they should go through consultation process on the agenda of the meeting and agree on what needs to be discussed and done to get the ball rolling

5)they should set up institutions required for carrying out various plans of actions that will be needed for fulfilling needs of all people in the community in every way possible

6)they should work out all plans of actions in each and every detail and go for community consultation to see if the plans of actions are fit for the set out purposes to be carried out

7)they should as a community distribute responsibilities to each and every institution and the rights as well for a set period of time and review and revise and readjust things as need be.

8)they should work out all systems, structures, procedures and practices to each and every minute detail possible then go through community consultation process for agreement on all this.

9)they should as a community select or elect appropriate people for carrying out specific roles for each and every institution for a fixed period of time but on trial basis for a few months and if all is ok then keep people on otherwise make appropriate changes as needed till a proper balance is struck.

10)they should implement program, constitution and law for fulfilling the set goals, and keep monitoring each and everything at all levels for problems and if any show up take care of them without delay

11)proper education and training is backbone of all this and it should never be neglected

12)as a new thing in place there are going to be plenty of problems but as time goes on if appropriate steps are taken for solving them then it should not take long for the whole machinery to start running smoothly

The very basic thing is land and resources and means of production and distribution and proper organisation of human population and its proper regulation so that all have a reasonably comfortable life and make progress.

In simple words, this is what the quran teaches us as the islamic way of life and doing all this is ibaadah=worship of Allah. There is no way any clever people could beat this way of life. the quranic way of life is totally different from all ways of life kufaar(=the opponents of way of life advised by Allah) will ever come up with. It is a way of life whereby each person lives for others not against others hunting down each other for personal gains at the expense of each other as in capitalist system. This is why there is no concept of rulers among brothers ie no masters no slaves just members of the very same one united human family. No one is rich and no one is poor. All people are children of humanity and the concern is for the well being and prosperity of each other thereby of humanity as a whole. All work for the good of each other and all share ups and downs together that is why there is no excessive burden on individuals due to balanced form of life. This is what makes life beautiful for those who live for it and makes them eligible for awards in hereafter. This is how islam removes unevenness and divisions by putting responsibilities on shoulders of those who have advantages over others ie adults look after children and when children become adults and adults grow into old age people they are looked after by those children who have grown into adults and so the cycles goes on. It is because none of the people is totally disadvantaged rather each person has advantage over others in his own way and when all work together on brotherly basis, it matters not who is adult and who is old, who is tall and who short, who is fat and who is thin because there is always somebody there to help do what needs to be done. So no one gets stuck.

Islam is not a mazhab=belief system but a deen=way of life from Allah and this is how it proves that none can produce a book like the quran ie human mind was never capable of looking that far ahead in time because it needs prompting and stimulation. Even though there is no direct evidence for existence of God, the quran puts forth a proof in form of an explanation that no human being can ever beat. Since the quran is beyond production of mankind therefore the sole explanation for existence of such a book is that it is from somewhere outside created intelligence. This is why man has no explanation for it other than to accept it as it claims ie word of God.

When ummah understands the quran along these lines it will become muslim as per quran. mere make beliefs do not make one a muslim. when ummah actually understand the quran and follows it there is none in this world who could beat it. This is promise of Allah repeated in the quran.

Those who say they are muslims must pay proper attention to proper education and training along these lines. If not then they can carry on the way they have been and the result will always remain the same. the further they go away from the quranic way of life the more and more problems are guaranteed for them and rest of humanity.

Ummah is supposed to be mother and father of its people. The very word ummah comes from same root ie ALIF, MEEM and MEEM. Words like IMAAM, UMMI, UMMAH etc come from the very same root. Imaam is father of nation or leader of the nation.

Your father is no use if community is not there to support him. Look at how many fathers are there in the world and what they are doing because there is no community support for them because they are not paying attention to having a community. Look at how many mothers are there in the world who are utterly useless because there is no support for them. The same is the case for all brothers and sisters in the world because there is no support for them and they are not even thinking about becoming a brotherhood. All human beings are orphans if there is no support for them and that support is provided by Allah on the basis of a way of life based upon bringing about a proper human community. A clear proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the quran is word of Allah as it claims.

Think about it, how long have hindu scriptures been in this world eg vedas, puraanas, upnishads, mahabarata, raamayana etc etc, the parsi scripture avesta, the jewish scriptures and the christian scriptures and now the quran. Think about how many messengers and books Allah sent in the world ie thousands of them yet humanity has failed to grasp the message of Allah for its own well being. Now imagine if this is the real situation of the world after having so many true teachers to guide it then where could humanity be without any of them being there?

We have heard people talking about instinctive behaviour, I want you to think about it in a bit of depth. Instinctive behaviour is that which is based upon reflexive action ie you cause something to happen and it happens eg you hit a glass with a hammer it smashes ie there is no thinking involved, you slap someone he slaps you back straight away without thinking about the consequences. The question is what made human beings to reflect the consequences before taking any actions? The development of thinking ability. What stimulated that process in deeper and wider way? This is the answer only external source could give human beings ie God. It is because humans could never think that far ahead all by themselves and the proof is state of humanity even today after thousands of years of learning and teaching. How could such people produce scriptures all by themselves? Why will rich and clever people produce scriptures which condemn them? How could poor who are ignorant, illiterate and uneducated? So existence of divine information is a mystery that is not possible for humanity to explain unless they accept the fact that these scriptures could never comes from people but God. There are scriptures which contain information from God none can doubt that but almost all of them contain human elements as well save the quran which none can deny who has studied the scriptures in a bit of depth.

The question is why we have people who refuse to accept existence of creator and sustainer? It is simply a matter of ignorance, illiteracy and lack of proper education. Those who deny existence of God do so because they have not studied the scriptures in light of real world realities. For the very same reason people are religious because they are not bothered with knowing things properly for themselves. They rather stay stupid than learn and improve themselves and humanity. This is why we have rulers, mullahs and money lenders because they never studied the scriptures and the real world realities to get the sense needed to be proper human beings so they are not a conscience people. They go by what suits them in context of what they know.

So if people want their world to be a beautiful place then proper education and training is prerequisite for that and based upon that hard work. The set-up systems and laws of Allah will then deliver that kind of world and that was the promise from Allah to all mankind in the world.

The idea is to deliver on time to people all things of their needs eg goods and services at the points of needs freely. No money is involved, no business for profit. Humanity comes first and foremost.

I hope this explanation helps but personal study cannot beaten. regards and all the best.
Mughal:

Fair enough.

Now, give an example how Mohammed put Allah's will into practice,the way Muslims did/ should be doing in their lives.
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Fernando
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Fernando »

Mughal wrote:Dear Fernando, there is no need to suppose things because we have the information before us in form of the quran and other islamic sources. All we need to do is understand the sources properly in their proper context.
Ah, thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic, Mughal. The context of the main source - the Koran - is of course the hadiths. In no other way, apart from the small amount of non-Muslim commentary from the time, can the Koran be explained (other than in its own muddy light, of course). And before we can use the hadiths to throw light on the Koran, we need to be sure that they are legitimate - which clearly very many of them are not.
As for supposition, I'm not too familiar with the detail of the Koran. Where does it actually say in there that Allah sent Gabriel to read the Koran to Mo? At first sight, in sura 53 it could be talking of Allah, of Gabriel, of someone unknown - of Satan even. Surely Muslims just suppose that it was Gabriel, acting on the orders of Allah - but I see no claim in the Koran.
‘Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs and literary traditions. They neither intermarry nor eat together, and indeed they belong to two different civilisations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.’ Muhammad Ali Jinnah
darth
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by darth »

Mughal wrote: Dear darth, you are so confused if I may say so.
Certainly you may say so. I mean I can hardly stop you from blabbering, can I?

Mughal wrote: I mean you said that I was writing too much and when I gave you simple answers you could not make sense of them without the context.
Your answer was the stupidest thing I heard. I mean, the idea of God sending a book simply to get people to recognize and appreciate him is so nonsensical that if I had been inclined towards religion, I would have said that it borders on blasphemy - I mean you accuse your creator of being this needy creature in need to human appreciation.
Mughal wrote:
I have already explained things you are asking about so please go through them.
.
You have not yet explained how bonking one's adopted daughter in law allows one to achieve what you state is the goal of the quran (recognizing and appreciating the creator). Pray enlighten us (without blabbering on and on). Do you get a special appreciation for the creator when you bonk your adopted daughter in law?
Mughal wrote: I accept the quran is work of God because it is not possible for humanity to produce a book like the quran.
What are you talking about? Humans have produced many books that are vastly superior in every way to the quran? You may have not read many books, but I can confidently state that every book that I read in the last one month alone is superior to the quran.
I challenge you to show us even one verse from the quran that proves beyond doubt that it is from God.
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

yeezevee wrote:you mean you want read through your translation or you want to redo your translation??

Anyways I am reading your Quran., I also put them in to PDF files so it is easy for others to download and read...

with best wishes
yeezevee
Thanks dear yeezevee for the pdf files but do let me know when you upload them because then I can upload a copy on my web link as well for ease of others.

Yes, I am now going over what I have written and obviously I am making changes where I see that changes or additions will help understand things better. As for mullahs they do not enter in debate with me because they do not have the background that I have and the foundation upon which I stand. However street power no doubt belongs to mullahs because there are far too many ignorant, illiterate and uneducated people out there who love mullahs to bits. This is why even ghamdi left pakistan with his family and so did some of his friends after one of them was killed and ghamdi also was attacked but he was lucky to survive. But I am challenging mullahs to think wherever I can. Nonetheless it will take time before things really get going. But as I said my main concern is getting my work completed so that I could refer people to it rather than explaining each and every thing in detail to each and every person.

regards and all the best.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Fair enough.

Now, give an example how Mohammed put Allah's will into practice,the way Muslims did/ should be doing in their lives.
Dear frankie, your question is fine but I am stuck with my other work for the time being therefore I cannot go through other books but once I am free then it is my desire that I go through other islamic source materials as well and reinterpret them in context of the quran. This is not going to happen tomorrow or day after. Because already I spend years on the work on the quran and may be a couple more may not be underestimate. Likewise I cannot recommend any work already done on other sources because I know myself that there are obvious mistakes in them because these works were misinterpreted and misrepresented deliberately to masses for other purposes. So for the time being I am stuck and I hope you will understand my difficulty but if I came across some work in english that explains things the way I understand things I will try and bring it to attention of others and it will save me from going through similar exercise as I have gone through for rendering the quran.

I am hoping that once my translation is read by muslim scholars they will challenge other works by mullahs on other sources as well and many will rise to get rid of effect of works of mullahs by producing better works.

regards and all the best
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Hombre
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Hombre »

Dear Mughal":
Your focus on "Mullahs" - as Muslim clerics called in Shi'ite sect, to which you use as negative example, points out your Sunni sect practiced in Pakistan, whom call their cleric "Imams".

Nonetheless, your windy and flowery replies remind me of two comedians, whom used to describe biblical events as part of their comedy show.

One of them holds a large blank sheet to the audience, and ask them:
"do you know what it is"?
His fellow comedian replies with smug in his face:
"It is just a blank sheet".
The first guy's reply is:
"Nop!, it is not - this is a 3400 year old picture, describing one of the most important historical events".
The 2nd guy still persistent:
"Com'on "It is the bed sheet from the hotel room"
Undeterred the first comedian continues:
"This is ladies & gentlemen, this is the picture describing the Jewish Exodus from Egypt. The meaning here is so advance and deep, is the reason no one sees the historical event"
Then the crows weighs in
"where are the Jews"?
The comedian replies
"Jews have already passed, and they are here" (pointing to the right corner of the stage)
"And where are the Egyptian?.
The comedian replies with confidence:.
"They have not got here yet".

This is the way you are rendering the Quran. an empty and shallow manuscript, passes on as "sophistication & Advanced" , which average person can not see it.
Mughal
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

Fernando wrote:
Mughal wrote:Dear Fernando, there is no need to suppose things because we have the information before us in form of the quran and other islamic sources. All we need to do is understand the sources properly in their proper context.
Ah, thanks for bringing the discussion back on topic, Mughal. The context of the main source - the Koran - is of course the hadiths. In no other way, apart from the small amount of non-Muslim commentary from the time, can the Koran be explained (other than in its own muddy light, of course). And before we can use the hadiths to throw light on the Koran, we need to be sure that they are legitimate - which clearly very many of them are not.
As for supposition, I'm not too familiar with the detail of the Koran. Where does it actually say in there that Allah sent Gabriel to read the Koran to Mo? At first sight, in sura 53 it could be talking of Allah, of Gabriel, of someone unknown - of Satan even. Surely Muslims just suppose that it was Gabriel, acting on the orders of Allah - but I see no claim in the Koran.

Dear Fernando, to interpret the quran you need to use all sorts of relevant information from all sources not just hadith. The idea is to see what the text of the quran says in its own context. What you are confusing hadith with is called SHAANE NAZOOL ie why a certain verse was revealed. This is not hadith this is mullahs' invention that was used for confusing masses. The other invention was abrogation of the verses of the quran by verses of the quran. yet other was abrogation of the quran through hadith. Stupidity of mullahs is not limited to shaane nazool only. They invented the whole shariah on the concept that laws should be made by mullahs. For that they brought in personal opinions and on that basis they secured for themselves authority for giving fatwas as individuals.

The proper quran based shariah is very different from all this mullah nonsense because the quran gives right to whole ummah to come together and form laws unanimously through consultation with each other on basis of guidelines provided and the needs ummah has to serve as I have already explained in my posts. No individual has any right to make laws and impose them on others. So there are a lot of things that mullahs have done to harm islam and muslims and nonmuslims as well because if people who are supposed to be torch bearers of humanity lose the way themselves what is going to happen to the rest of the people?

You can read my rendering of surah 53. I do not accept JIBREEL is an angel because word MALAK has many meaning and all of them are used for people or the beings they imagine. The same is true in case of word JINN. JIBREEL is taken as a word of hebrew origin but I suspect it is a lot older and probably used for message of God not an angel because in the proper quranic context angels and jinns as imagine by people do not exist. This is why even satan does not exist in the quranic context the way people imagine it. Satan is any human person who stands in opposition of way of life advised by Allah. The first person called SHAITAAN in the quran is IBLEES who opposed adam because Allah appointed adam as his messenger to lead people at the time to a way of life that was advised by Allah.

The quran is very different book from what mullahs have told us. Mullahs are even today fighting over SATAN was an angel or a jinn. It is because in connected with adam Allah called him MALAK because he according to them ordered MALAAIKAH to bow down before adam but iblees ddi not so he disobeyed Allah. In another verse Allah called him a jinn. The question is if malaks are angels and jinns are jinns then who is iblees, jinn or angel?

Here is my explanation. Malaks were those people who were chiefs of tribes in time of adam. these people were fighting and shedding blood and so they became fed up with this carry on so they wished if humanity could be freed from this situation but they did not know what to do and how to do so a man from among them was raised as a messenger of Allah to help them guide to a way of life that is free of bloodshed. All accepted his proposal save one of the chiefs ie iblees. He opposed it and the reason was, he did not want to give up his position of power as a chief to live by the book like the rest of them. He is called jinn because he thought he was expert and skilled person more then all the rest. This arrogance on his part made him an outcast along with his people. Now one can see there is no contradiction and the story also makes perfect sense. Iblees for a man who was called malak due to being a chief of a tribe and a jinn due to his arrogance and showing himself emotionally disturbed as an ignorant fool. if people will read bible in this light they will have better understanding of the story of the bible as well. It unfortunate that original text of bible was lost and new text is rendering from translations.

Can you see the difference it makes to under the context of the text? Thinking takes ages to discover things but it is well worth the time. Those who think quran is copied from the bible can see that the quran is original not copy of the bible. Bible does not say satan was an angel as well as a jinn. Where did muhammad hear satan was a jinn? Satan was a fallen angel if I remember correctly as believed by christians. This is why if everyone worked together to find out the truth about scriptures from the scriptures with help of each other, result will be really good and it will help knowledge spread faster. But humans are humans and they will not do thing till they themselves are driven to a point by each other where they forced to think and do things. The main things is the quran demystifies things whereas mullahs are busy trying to turn each and everything into mystery.

regards and all the best.
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Re: Legitimacy of the hadiths

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:Dear Mughal":
Your focus on "Mullahs" - as Muslim clerics called in Shi'ite sect, to which you use as negative example, points out your Sunni sect practiced in Pakistan, whom call their cleric "Imams".

Nonetheless, your windy and flowery replies remind me of two comedians, whom used to describe biblical events as part of their comedy show.

One of them holds a large blank sheet to the audience, and ask them:
"do you know what it is"?
His fellow comedian replies with smug in his face:
"It is just a blank sheet".
The first guy's reply is:
"Nop!, it is not - this is a 3400 year old picture, describing one of the most important historical events".
The 2nd guy still persistent:
"Com'on "It is the bed sheet from the hotel room"
Undeterred the first comedian continues:
"This is ladies & gentlemen, this is the picture describing the Jewish Exodus from Egypt. The meaning here is so advance and deep, is the reason no one sees the historical event"
Then the crows weighs in
"where are the Jews"?
The comedian replies
"Jews have already passed, and they are here" (pointing to the right corner of the stage)
"And where are the Egyptian?.
The comedian replies with confidence:.
"They have not got here yet".

This is the way you are rendering the Quran. an empty and shallow manuscript, passes on as "sophistication & Advanced" , which average person can not see it.
Dear Hombre, do you know the quran keeps telling mankind to ponder over words and verses of the quran and tells look at this and look at that and think etc etc. It keeps prompting and stimulating people or keeps pricking them to raise curiosity in them to motivate them into doing things. Now when people will learn more and more and look into the quran they will keep discovering new things. We are looking at the same earth that people lived many generations before us but we discovered a lot more than they did but had they not enabled us how could we?

So the quran motivates us into finding more and more things and learning from them and then after learning new things we look back into the quran and discover more and more things. it is sort of interactive book. If I have tried to render a book into new meanings that did not tell me to do so you had the point but since quran tells us to do so therefore your point does not apply in case of the quran. The quran has answered your question 1400+ years ago. Somebody who wrote the quran knew people will ask such questions so he answered such question long ago.

This is why people need to read the quran themselves and see what they will discover themselves from the quran through this interaction.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/53/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks for sharing the joke. regards and all the best

watch this for fun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxo81Ok9Urk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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