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has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:42 am
by Mughal
has humanity understood the quran properly? my understanding of the quranic message.


if direct link does not work look for discover islam section on the forum by clicking on the following links
http://www.jangforum.net

http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?action=forum

http://archive.org/details/EnglishTranslationOfTheQuran

An examples of my work on the quran can be found HERE and HERE

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:55 am
by manfred
Yes. we know oh prophet and messenger. You and only you understand the Quran and Mohammed. Allah was too dumb to say what he wanted to say and he needed you to explain it all away. When Allah says "kill the unbeliever" he really meant tickle them a bit with a chicken feather.

Are you still at your own personal Mecca phase, and contend with half a dozen followers or less?

When will you get your head round the simple fact that Muslims follow ISLAM and not Mughalism?

Surely soon you will start blowing things up and beheading people, following Mohammed's example, and your following and wealth will rise.

You are making apologies for atrocities.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:16 pm
by frankie
has humanity understood the quran properly?


Mughal:

I am glad to see you are asking pertinent questions, here is my reply.

If you are saying humanity has failed in his comprehension of what the Quran tells him, then you are conceding Allah has failed in his mission to give humanity a clear enough revelation for mankind's benefit for all time, which in itself proves whatever message Mohammed received cannot be from an omnipotent being.

On this point then I would agree, Allah did fail miserably, because first, Muslim sources themselves strongly suggest the meeting of Mohammed with an alleged divine being proves itself to come from a malevolent source by making Mohammed suicidal, and second, whatever message it allegedly gave to Mohammed, it was in its entirety evil towards humanity.

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/suicide.htm

The quranic message is a collection of commands to humanity,combing historical events of the actions and sayings of a man who thought he had dialogue with an angel of the same calibre, and from the same origin as any Biblical angel. From the above evidence, this proves not to be the case.

You need to do your self a favour and be asking more questions Mughal, which will eventually lead you to the truth.

The truth that Islam is based on lies and deceit, a provable fake, which poses a danger to humanity by commanding its adherents to fight and kill in the name of its god.

These words below are what you are obliged to put into action throughout your life as a faithful Muslim.

You are to be killers for your god.

Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"


Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:04 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

Did Muhammad truly understand Islam? Despite all his depravity there are no criticisms of Muhammad by Allah in the Koran. It therefore follows that what Muhammad did and said was true Islam. We can not blame muslims who follow the evil deeds of Muhammad if Allah says that Muhammad is the perfect example to follow and that Allah did not criticise Muhammad for any specific word or deed by Muhamad.

Muhammad`s Islam is the true Islam. There is no escaping this fact. Islam is Muhammadanism.

sum

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:45 pm
by Mughal
Dear friends, when we talk about God and scriptures we forget that it is not our assumptions that matter but the alleged message of God. All we can do is read it and see what sense it gives us and whether it makes sense or not. If a message is consistent with its stated purpose then it is fine otherwise not.

This means we need to understand message before we could say it is right or wrong. To judge the message we need to first of all prepare ourselves.

All our knowledge comes from God be it direct or indirect. The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brains and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through careful observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.

The proper use of brain and senses is first of all for self awareness. Looking at a baby when he is born he learns through experience by interacting with things through his senses. It takes a baby ages to gradually learn how to use his senses and limbs. To begin with a baby has problems making sense of what he sees through his eyes or hears through his ears. He gradually learns to focus his eyes and ears. He also learns gradually how to control his limbs eg hands and feet etc. During all this time a baby never thinks about God or revelation.

As baby grows and interacts more and more with other things his learning experience expands and keeps expanding the wider and deeper one goes into learning about things all around him. So far there is no sense of God and revelation.

So first step is self awareness and 2nd step is awareness of universal realities. All this learning prepares one for understanding things at a wider scale than one so far has learned.

Now you will agree that not all people are well aware about themselves.

You will also agree that likewise even less people are aware of wider universal realities.

So many people are not much better in their knowledge than other animals.

The question is, should we expect such people to be able to know anything about God? if we do then there is a problem with our own thinking. That is like saying that kindergarten kids should be able to understand higher education stuff.

This is why people who are not well educated cannot understand the stuff that is only for people with knowledge of higher level stuff.

The Quran is not for people who have not yet learned even the sense of making proper sense of things or have no sense of what it is talking about or what subjects it is dealing with.

It is for people who realise the need for guidance and that one cannot do till one has learned enough from one's life experience for which one only needs brain and senses. This is why any people who have not had the life experience they need to have to realise why they need guidance from God will not turn to guidance of God because they have not yet reached that level of self awareness and awareness of universal realities.

The Quran is ultimate book of information and people are born ignorant. The quran does not change but views of people keep changing with time as they grow with time and gain more and more, wider and wider and deeper and deeper experience in life. So it gives them better and better understanding of the very same text.

It is because God talks about same things that we people face in life on daily basis but we hardly ever stop and reflect to see correlation between the two.

A child has no sense about management of people and resources let alone proper management of people and resources and means of production and distribution, so when he reads the quran he does not understand it. many grown ups are in same category and that is why we have the world the way it is ie people have not bothered to raise their level of thinking so that they could think about making their world a better place than what we see all around us.

So when we raise our thinking levels to that which is needed for realising the need for guidance of God that is the time we will turn to it and when we will turn to it it will make perfect sense to us.

The Quran is not a holy book full of religious nonsense rather it is a book that explains the way humanity should approach life so that not only it survives but has blissful, dignified and secure existence.

people interpret quran differently because they come from different backgrounds and have different life experiences and also due to conflicts of interests.

You will agree that people can only live their lives on basis of personal gains or on a basis of community spirit or a bit of both.

The Quran therefore will be looked at by each group from their own advantage point or from the truth point of view. That is why it will be interpreted by people accordingly.

Whether a group has interpreted the quran right or wrong depends on which of them offers a complete explanation of it that is at least consistent within itself and at most consistent with universal realities as well.

If we read any interpretation of the quran which takes it as a religious holy book then any such interpretation of the quran is false because the quran is not a religious holy book. There are verses in the quran which cannot be masked by mullahs that clearly tell us quran is a book that contains a program for goals God set for humanity to accomplish according to a his provided guidelines for a constitution and laws for organising and regulating a proper human community or ummah.

It is because basically the quran is all about proper management of people and resources as well as mean of production and distribution by humanity itself according to given guiding rules for the growth and development of humanity that is why it contains program, goals and guidelines for a constitution and laws.

When we interpret the quran this way all conflicts one sees in religious interpretations of the quran disappear. All this is rational interpretation of the quran.

Muslims and nonmuslims fight not because of the quran but because of their ignorance about it and due to what they want out of the quran. If all people had decent education and read the quran to make sense of it they will see a lot of sense in the quranic text.

However all this will take time but people will have no choice but to turn to way of life advised by the quran or die fighting each other. It is simple as that.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:03 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

Why do you consider the Koran to be more acceptable than the New Testament? The message in the New Testament is far more acceptable to all humanity than the Koran. Why do you favour the Koran and not the New Testament?

Do you actually see the hatred and intolerance in the Koran or do you drift into a state of denial to avoid seeing the hatred and intolerance that muslims are to display against the non-muslims?

sum

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:34 pm
by manfred
So, Mughal, as you foolishly assert that the Quran has divine origin, tell me what will Allah do to those who CHANGE his words?

Also, tell me why, as the Quran repeated says it is "CLEAR", it still needs you to make apologies for it?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:39 am
by darth
Mughal wrote:All our knowledge comes from God be it direct or indirect. The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.

Please give us the verse number in the quran where this is stated. We will look it up ourselves and see what it says.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:33 am
by frankie
Muslims and nonmuslims fight not because of the quran but because of their ignorance about it and due to what they want out of the quran. If all people had decent education and read the quran to make sense of it they will see a lot of sense in the quranic text.


Mughal:

Following on from your advise I have read the Quran and come across this verse which according to your reasoning I "should see a lot of sense"

Please explain this verse so that I may come to see the sense in this particular quranic text, bearing in mind that both the Law and the Gospel do not advocate their faithful to "kill and get killed" in the name of their God, which this verse strongly implies.


Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:55 am
by piscohot
This is why people who are not well educated cannot understand the stuff that is only for people with knowledge of higher level stuff.


the quran must be a joke then.

cos' it came from a person whom believers declared to be illiterate.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:19 pm
by ygalg
Mughal wrote:All our knowledge comes from God be it direct or indirect.

if only Allah stop being shy and affirm it by himself, that would be factual.

The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.

it seems slipped from Allah's mind, koran meant for all humanity. yet written that only Allah capable to interpret it properly, furthermore written in the language not all know it. and even these who do, unable to interpret it properly. koran contains vague details, words tho written in arabic letters, actually foreign.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:42 pm
by piscohot
an example of how ridiculous i think Mughal's translations had turned into:

what Allah said in arabic as understood by all previous translators, the first 2 verses of chapter 9 of the quran.....

9:1 Freedom from (all) obligations (is declared) from Allah and His Messenger (SAW) to those of the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah), with whom you made a treaty.

9:2 So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers..........is not what Allah really meant.

Instead Allah meant to say (according to Mughal):

9:1 This is a proposal for inter-communal peace and security of mankind from Allah for His messenger concerning all those communities out there with whom you should enter treaties because they have taken for rulers other than Allah.

9:2 So that you all have the opportunity to help the masses, develop and prosper for a period of time and be aware that you cannot defeat this plan of Allah because Allah lets those who work against His plan end up humiliating themselves.


So did Muhammad the messenger understood the real message of Allah and promoted 'inter-communal peace and security' or did Muhammad voided treaties and persecuted non muslims after a period of 4 months?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:03 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:Yes. we know oh prophet and messenger. You and only you understand the Quran and Mohammed. Allah was too dumb to say what he wanted to say and he needed you to explain it all away. When Allah says "kill the unbeliever" he really meant tickle them a bit with a chicken feather.

Are you still at your own personal Mecca phase, and contend with half a dozen followers or less?

When will you get your head round the simple fact that Muslims follow ISLAM and not Mughalism?

Surely soon you will start blowing things up and beheading people, following Mohammed's example, and your following and wealth will rise.

You are making apologies for atrocities.


Dear manfred, please do think a little when you respond. The argument is not about existence of God nor about nature of God but about if God exists and if the quran is his book for guidance of mankind.

Suppose quran is a book from God then what should we expect in it? Should it be written for us from God's point of view or should it be written by God from our points of views and if from our point of view than could God accommodate individual opinions of all of us? Is it our decision to make or up to God? If you write a book would you write it from my point of view or your own? You will agree that it is purpose of writing that book that will decide how the book should be written. This being the case how can we know what is in the book till we try our best and make proper sense of it to begin with? This is why we are simply arguing with each other without knowing properly the message in the book.

To make sense of it what do you think people need to do? You will agree that being born ignorant and given ability to learn people will have to educate themselves to the level whereat they could make proper sense of contents of the book. So long as a people fail to educate themselves about the book they have no right to say anything about it, be it right or wrong. That is because only that opinion matters which is based upon proper study of the book.

Since people are divided on basis of conflict of interest no opinion can be fully trusted unless an opinion is fully backed by irrefutable evidences. This is why it all keeps coming back to proper study of the book for oneself.

The next best thing we can have is explanation of the book by a person who has studied the book properly. This explanation has to be positive because the point of revelation of the book is guidance of mankind. All we can do is, see if the book can be explained positively or not. If the book cannot be explained positively then there are only two possibilities a) people do not have enough knowledge to interpret the book properly or b)the book itself is false and cannot be understood at all due to flaws and contradictions which only and only lead to confusion.

All I am doing is trying to see if the quran can be interpreted in such a way that it makes perfect sense. If I fail in doing that then either I am not educated enough or that the quran itself is false.

What I find is that the way mullahs have interpreted the quran is false. I have no problem proving that. All any of us can do is see contradictions in interpretations of the quran by mullahs and the make beliefs and dogmas they promote and useless rituals they invent and follow that have nothing at all to do with the text of the quran.

There is clear conflict between the text of all the scriptures and the beliefs and rituals of their followers. This is my main point. So all scriptures should be looked into by their followers for the true sense of the texts. I learned this by examining the quranic text in a bit of detail.

I have interpreted quite a bit of the quranic text and I find that it has been grossly misinterpreted. My question is why mullahs misinterpreted the quran? It is not misinterpreted by odd human mistakes but it was done deliberately. In other words there is so much evidence there which shows very clearly that the quran has been deliberately misinterpreted and misrepresented. The only explanation is, originally muslim rulers conspired and set up mullaism to do this to pave the way for imperialism in the name of God. Later generations became used to it and took it for real thing due to indoctrination.

How did the imperialists originally got their chance to change islam from what it was ie deen of islam to what it is ie mazhab of islam? I have managed to answer this question in detail in my work on the quranic text.

I have also explained all the questions people are asking here, this is why one has to go through my work to see what is ok and what is not ok. I don't think people have raised that many questions against the quran than I have.

Only when I have completed my work on the quran I will be able to say anything 100% but so far I am convinced that the quran is not a human work at all. It is because human works cannot be free of human mindsets, attitudes and behaviours, of which the quran is free.

In this world of mankind where personal gains at the expense of each other are a way of life for the entire world for existence of people the quran promotes brotherhood ie an opposite message. To accept brotherhood man has to overcome all causes for divisions, rivalries, animosities, hatred and wars. People write book to show their own side and that is missing in the quran. The quran gives us access to knowledge freely and says in it whereas we people do not write books for freely educating people. If anything we copyright our intellectual properties. Did any messenger of God ever did that? No.

The quran again and again tells us to observe universal realities and learn from them. This is not said just once but hundreds of times in the quran. Do you know the implications of that?

Why the quran tells us to look at this thing and that thing? Because it tells us there are lessons in that for us to learn from? The question is what are those lesson which we can learn by exploring these things? The lessons we are so proud to say that we have learned. This is the science in the quran and it is a very challenging idea. The idea is that man observes things and explores them to learn from and become a better creator in his own right by using God provided raw materials. This is the potential placed in mankind by God but to serve what purpose? So that mankind could one day realise how great the actual creator of man is. God is not looking for pooja paat from people but true appreciation based upon their own knowledge as an independent opinion of theirs. This is why God created people with clean brains so that they learn things by themselves right from the start and then give their opinion about God as to how great he is due to his creation and revelation. if we say God is great but know nothing about his greatness then we are actually lying to ourselves and God about his greatness so God has no reason or appreciate our such worthless opinions.

I was surprised that I never read the quran the way I discovered things now and how all points made in the quran come together.

I can see that the quran is no ordinary book that a man could have written in arabian desert 1400 years back.

I have little doubt that the rest of the quran will also prove similar work.

This is why I am continuing the work because if you ask me I am at brink of discovering something that has laid there hidden for centuries due to ignorance of humanity but time is coming that mankind will start learning the message of God with great interest.

It will be good idea for educated people to dive into the quran and see what they can discover for themselves in there instead of wasting their time in arguing over things they have no idea about.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:49 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:So, Mughal, as you foolishly assert that the Quran has divine origin, tell me what will Allah do to those who CHANGE his words?

Also, tell me why, as the Quran repeated says it is "CLEAR", it still needs you to make apologies for it?


Dear manfred, read my work you will find all such questions fully answered. It is because in my work I am explaining the purpose of creation the quran puts forth. Allah did not create mankind to put them through a test to reward or punish them as mullahs say. The quran puts forth its own reason why Allah created mankind and the rest of creation. Once people understand that purpose make belief based questions will no longer arise.

The very first verse of the quran should let people know that mullahs have tampered with interpretation of the quran and the very first surah of the quran should make people question interpretations of the quran by mullahs. if they have not realised even that much then such peoples' claim about education is not worth it. They have yet to learn a lot more to get what the quranic text means.

The quranic logic is very simple, Allah has created mankind for his purpose that is why he has given them ability to learn through life experience through observing other things as well as each other. On top of that he has given them advice in clues as to how to live properly so that people work out instruction for themselves and practice them accordingly. It is then left up to people as a human family to take each other wherever they want to take each other ie to life of prosperity and dignity and security or life of poverty and disgrace and instability. Allah did not destroy nations rather they destroyed themselves by stepping aside from advise of Allah and living their lives as they chose for themselves. Just like you and me and people we live among. Some of us want to live for each other as a community and some of us want to live for ourselves at the expense each other and therefore at the expense of human brotherhood. Each way of life leads to a particular end result. Living for oneself leads to a way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of each other ideology which in turn leads to divisions based upon rivalries and animosities therefore wars and destruction by hands of each other. Since personal gains based way of life leads to hatred and fights and wars, that is how nations after nations end up destroyed by making life of each other a living hell.

We all talk about covenants between God and humanity but have any of us ever thought what are they all about? It is explained in the very first surah of the quran. It is about God giving people advice and asking them to promise that they will follow it. What will happen if people will follow it? God promised mankind that if you will live as I advise you then I will make your life a blissful, dignified and safe experience ie the outcome of following Godly program will be a blissful, dignified and secure life for mankind.

This is why the quran is basically all about proper management of human population and provided resources as well as proper production of things of need and want and their proper distribution and that is why the quran is a manifesto of God for mankind to accept or reject and face the consequences.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:16 pm
by Mughal
darth wrote:
Mughal wrote:All our knowledge comes from God be it direct or indirect. The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.

Please give us the verse number in the quran where this is stated. We will look it up ourselves and see what it says.



http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/179/default.htm

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/78/default.htm

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/46/default.htm

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/23/78/default.htm

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/67/23/default.htm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:23 pm
by Mughal
frankie wrote:
Muslims and nonmuslims fight not because of the quran but because of their ignorance about it and due to what they want out of the quran. If all people had decent education and read the quran to make sense of it they will see a lot of sense in the quranic text.


Mughal:

Following on from your advise I have read the Quran and come across this verse which according to your reasoning I "should see a lot of sense"

Please explain this verse so that I may come to see the sense in this particular quranic text, bearing in mind that both the Law and the Gospel do not advocate their faithful to "kill and get killed" in the name of their God, which this verse strongly implies.


Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.


Dear frankie, I have interpreted the first 37 surahs of the quran so far so the link I have given has my interpretation of the verses people raise a lot of questions about
so please see it there and see what sense it makes in its context.

See also explanation i have given to manfred about concepts.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:53 pm
by Mughal
piscohot wrote:
This is why people who are not well educated cannot understand the stuff that is only for people with knowledge of higher level stuff.


the quran must be a joke then.

cos' it came from a person whom believers declared to be illiterate.


Dear picohot, yes I know but did you ever think that people who are ignorant give stupid answers for perfectly sensible questions?

Mullahs have no idea about how science works and the quran cannot be understood unless one has sense of universal realities. so may be you should not be asking them questions because you will get silly answers. The prophets sent by God were top intellectuals of their time.

Mullah following muslims are a strange people because when you ask them read the quran by themselves instead of following mullahs their answer is we do. But the fact is they read the translations by same mullahs and think they are reading the quran themselves. The very same is true about nonmuslims who argue with me that their objections are based on translations of mullahs. They do this despite knowing that mullahs are worse of creature according to the quran itself because they mislead people from the path of God.

God educates people through book which in itself proves that prophets were not illiterate people. Moses was raised in household of pharaoh and his own household had easy access to pharaoh's household. He was also educated by his father in law who himself was a prophet and that was after he fled egypt.

The word under question is UMMI and it comes from root ALIF, MEEM and MEEM. It means mother not just illiterate. It also means mother nation or ummah and IMAAM as well. So when a word has so many meanings why mullahs chose meaning illiterate? Because they thought it will prove prophethood of muhammad if they said he was illiterate and yet came up with a book. They did not think that information contained within the quranic text could prove that he was a prophet from God because no human could come up with that information.

This site is going to find a very different approach by me to the quran which is more difficult to digest for exmuslims here. However I am busy for a while and have little time to show what kind of book the quran really is.

I suggest people read my work and see what I make of the quranic text and see if they can challenge it. if anyone can challenge my work it is exmuslims because they have same background that I have.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:09 pm
by Mughal
ygalg wrote:
Mughal wrote:All our knowledge comes from God be it direct or indirect.

if only Allah stop being shy and affirm it by himself, that would be factual.

The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.

it seems slipped from Allah's mind, koran meant for all humanity. yet written that only Allah capable to interpret it properly, furthermore written in the language not all know it. and even these who do, unable to interpret it properly. koran contains vague details, words tho written in arabic letters, actually foreign.



Dear ygalg, my question to you is who created all these languages? Not God, did he? Just like things people create eg tables, chairs, rockets and plans and buildings so they created so many languages. What God did was chose the language that could best serve his purpose. So blaming God for things we people do is not right.The troubles we create for ourselves it is we who need to solve them. The responsibility God has taken is that of giving us good advice but because we are free will creatures we seldom take divine advice aboard when we do things but after they go wrong we look for whop to blame for our doings.

As for knowledge coming from God see verses I have quoted already.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:06 am
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Did Muhammad truly understand Islam? Despite all his depravity there are no criticisms of Muhammad by Allah in the Koran. It therefore follows that what Muhammad did and said was true Islam. We can not blame muslims who follow the evil deeds of Muhammad if Allah says that Muhammad is the perfect example to follow and that Allah did not criticise Muhammad for any specific word or deed by Muhamad.

Muhammad`s Islam is the true Islam. There is no escaping this fact. Islam is Muhammadanism.

sum


Dear sum, who deserves criticism, the person who lives on basis of personal gains or the one who lives for others? Look into the quran and see how many ways of life it talks about and which way of life it criticises and why and which way of life it approves and why?

And what do you yourself think, how mankind will be better off living, as individuals hunting down each other for personal gains and in the process making life hell for each other or as a proper human family being there for each other trying to make life pleasant for each other?

Life of each and every prophet discussed in the quran is the life they lived, not the life reported in outside sources. It is because each source originates independent of other sources. Each and everything is fully detailed in various surahs of the quran.

Muhammad is told how to live his life and then his life is put forth as an example along with all other messengers for mankind to follow. It seems to me that we are approaching the scriptures the way we have been indoctrinated and not the way we ought to. The right way to approaching scriptures is to see their place value and then examine them as such by first of all trying to make proper sense of them and then if we fail in making proper sense of them we can blame either god or ourselves. More likely ourselves because it is human beings that learn things and improve their understanding of things not the other way round.

I do not reject hadith or fiqh or history etc but I base it upon sources in order and then working downwards. My reason is God is more trustable than man. God cannot make mistake but man can. God does not suffer from taking sides but man does. So all human works suffer from human mindsets, attitudes and behaviours.

There are people who support idea of god and there are people who oppose it and there are people who are not bothered at all and there are people who are bothered but lack knowledge to approach things but they approach anyway without preparing themselves for it. This is why when each of these sources will tell us something it will need careful consideration to see what5 might be the actual truth of the matter.

If people have been misinterpreting the main scriptures then how can they be trusted not to go further and make up things and attribute them to people they do not like?

This is why we must understand the main scriptures first and then the rest of things and what can go together and what cannot.

The main thing quran tells us is that it is either the way of god or way of people. If people will live by way of god then the outcome will be different from that which will be if we lived the way we liked.

Who are more likely to go for wars? Those who live for each other or those who live for themselves at the expense of all others? You will agree the predatory folk will go for wars because that is the way they want to live. The quran throughout condemns such way of life. Then you tell me muhammad lived a life of a predator but the quran tells me opposite of that. He tried to educate people out of this life style but as he did they began attacking him. If anyone reads the quran he will see even in the mullahs translations that almost all divine messengers were dealt with the same way by their people? This is why the quran talks about wars as well and in great detail and in proper context that makes perfect sense.

If you make up a gang and start robbing people of their livelihood by setting up your laws then you are creating enemies sooner or later people will realise what you are doing to them and gang up against you to stop you or take revenge against you. You cannot blame them for reacting this way because you brought this situation upon yourself.

The quran does not accept unjust laws made by people to take undue advantage of each other. justice done according to unjust laws is not acceptable. it is termed oppression and suppression in quranic text throughout.

Why do you think nonmuslims rulers around the word are funding mosques and mullahs? because mullahs keep people busy in their nonsense so that they do not have time to figure out who is giving them trouble and what they need to do about it.

It is because you cannot produce millionaires unless you use and abuse billions of people. However there are limits to use and abuse till people wake up kick out mullahs. The quran tells people that there are two ends to the ways of life they adopt. One way leads to blissful and dignified life and other to the bloody revolutions and destruction. You will see in the quran people keep asking when will the hour come, what do you think this hour is? It is the time when people will either establish the kingdom of God or the time they will rise up against each other due to atrocities they inflict upon each other making life hell for each other.

The time set for such revolution is based upon conditions and when those condition are met those thing will happen as they always did without fail. So it is better that people learn from their past and move in the direction the quran advises them instead of the opposite direction.

This is why I am saying read the quran and figure out what it is stated in there. After you have understood the quran a bit better then do read hadith again and then see what will be your conclusion.

I still have seven more parts to go through out of 30 and I have learned a lot which changed my view about the quran. I never read the quran like this before nor any other scripture. The study of the quran has given me ability to look at other books as well the same way to see what they have in them for humanity.

All this does not mean my work is perfect but it will be found very helpful because it gives people the direction to look into things a bit more closely.

The quran repeatedly tells us that job of messenger was to let people know that god has sent them his guidance and to make use of it or not is up to them because they are creatures given the will to decide the mater for themselves.

It matters not from point of view of god whether people follow his guidance or not but it matter from point of view of humanity that they do, why? because it effects them very seriously. if one party will force people to live one way then other is going to force them to live in another way. Since whole world is forced to live on basis of personal gains by a few on basis of armed forces then others will fight even if by sticks and stones to be free of their predatory grip that is there to suck them dry.

You will agree that it is straight forward thing to understand. If world does not move in direction of unity then it will move in direction of divisions. If it goes for divisions then discriminations are inevitable so we should not be complaining about outcome of our own actions. Our actions show our motives that we think we are hiding from each other. If we hate each other we will do things to hurt each other. The quran explains this repeatedly by saying Allah makes obvious your motives to each other through your actions in due course. It is because you try to act upon that which is in your mind. To people you hate you inflict hurt even if by setting up political or economic mechanisms to take advantage of them. It therefore shows how human friendly you are when you are part of such a society.

We have a lot to learn yet about god, our world and humanity.

regard and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:15 am
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Why do you consider the Koran to be more acceptable than the New Testament? The message in the New Testament is far more acceptable to all humanity than the Koran. Why do you favour the Koran and not the New Testament?

Do you actually see the hatred and intolerance in the Koran or do you drift into a state of denial to avoid seeing the hatred and intolerance that muslims are to display against the non-muslims?

sum


Yes, dear sum, the quran is much superior book than any book in the world as far as my study of the quran goes. however it does not mean human works are not worthy, they too are worthy of a place after work of god. after all humans are created creators and reflect mind of god. Time will come when man will do a lot more great things than he has already done so far because that is what god created him for. the man is created to be a little god if you like according to the quran. the more he embraces qualities of god the more creative he will become. he is created to manage the universe so it is not right to undermine his creative abilities. he has the huge potential yet to be discovered by him.

pay attention to word AAKHIRAT, it is used for future of humanity not hereafter. in other words we aint seen nothing yet as far as the quran is concerned. mankind have yet a very long way to go. the first step is mankind becoming one family at some point. the next goal is full speed exploration of the universe and the final step is recognition of god as a great creator by whole of humanity. this is what the quran tells us the purpose of divine creativity is. not banging our heads on the floor and waving our behinds in the air thinking we are doing something great for god.

word shukr is used in the quran not for thanks but for appropriate use of provisions by god. QALEELAM MAA TASHKUROON does not mean only a small number of you the humans give thanks for what Allah has provided you with, it means only a small number of you the mankind use things properly the way you are told by god himself.

As explained already the quranic words have been grossly misinterpreted deliberately eg take word SALAAH, it means a net work that helps people stay in touch or in contact eg postal system, telecommunication system transportation system etc etc. All tese helppeople stay in close contact with each other. The concept is social network ie community network. In quranic sense it means people should establish a proper human community that ensure all its members are doing great. mullahs interpreted it keep in touch with god, which is not wrong but half truth. the full idea is establish a human community as told by god. that is how people read surah FAATIHA because it is reaffirmation of agreement between god and mankind that people will play their role and god will play his role. so if people will do things the way god advised them then set-up systems and laws of god will bring them outcome told in the quran ie a rewarding life otherwise they will being upon themselves life of misery.

Read the verses why only islam is the way of life approved by god. this is how quranic verses click together without any problem. This is not about rejection of all other ways of life but the reason why that is the case. If we look back on human history it confirms that ways of life humans have been adopting throughout time and places other than advised by prophets have been a terrible mistake. How can any way of life be good for us that leads us to divisions, discriminations, hatred and wars? If we will not work hard to better each other then wars and painful suffering cannot be avoided. a clear proof that the quran is right in advising us how to live properly.

Word ZAKAAH is also not about creating divisions among people on basis of poverty and wealth and then giving some charity to each other. It is about removing all ills from community after a community has come about on basis of caring and sharing.

Word HAJJ is not about pilgrimage to kaabah in makkah but struggle for change of society from one way of life to another. It is about bringing about the divine kingdom.

It will be good idea for you to read surah hajj I have interpreted it in its own context. you will come to realise that mullahs did try to pull wool over our eyes. they did their best to render quran meaningless but they failed very badly because anyone who reads the quran with having ability to see things at higher level will be able to rediscover the actual message of the quran.

The quran is mainly about proper management of human population and resources which means it is mainly about society, politics and economics. This is why rulers, bankers and priests are busy in trying to show islam is not a DEEN= way of life but a religion. To prove that it has nothing to do with society, politics and economics.

So you can see wars are not due to quran but due to people and the reason is some of them want to rule others or become masters of others in opposition to advice of Allah. This is why SHIRK is a serious crime against god and humanity both. it is because man is trying to take the place of god and in the process destroying humanity also. it is a power struggle between people who want to rule the world instead of living in it and building it for a better tomorrow for everyone.

It is time we realised what is really going on in our world instead of listening to nonsense our leading people tell us for their own ends.

This site is still a bulwark against mullahs nonsense. they are not working for islam=peace but against it. they suck up to rulers and moneylenders and they always have been and that is how they have been selling masses to them for petty personal gains. Read the story of people of Lot, the quran is not talking about gays and lesbians but people who link to rulers and people in position of power and have wealth and they helped them use and abuse of masses. mullahs encourage idol worship and attribute lies to the quran and hadith texts.

The way my interpretation shows lies of mullahs in the name of quranic translations should give you idea how much they have misinterpreted hadith and fiqh works as well to hide the actual message in them. This does not mean those works are perfect but they are not as bad as they have been represented through false interpretations. So people who are interested in truth need to work together to discover the real truth that has been buried under layers of very clear falsehood.

regards and all the best.